Cosa significa conoscere la storia, l'uomo, la musica. Perché nel primo movimento Beethoven, al principio (e fine), apporta un punto coronato sulle note, tenute, di minima? Furtwangler, enorme musicista più che grande direttore, diede una risposta chiara -"perché il motivo è un motto, isolato, il movimento vero e proprio comincia dopo. Il tutto si chiude simmetricamente". Beh, ciò che Furtwangler dice a parole, Celibidache lo mette in musica. Con un tempo marcato, scandito alla perfezione, sinfonicamente amplissimo, il celeberrimo tema scolpisce la roccia isolandosi da tutto il contesto sinfonico del dopo. La coda, dopo il fiume di lava come lo chiamava Berlioz, propone, finalmente, i corni in primo piano, come se un tappo saltasse per permettere alla tensione di liberarsi. Tutto diviene chiaro, è Beethoven che ci parla. L'andante poi, sobrio come mai, non lascio spazio al sentimento. E' di una concentrazione e di una forza sbalorditiva, di una purezza incredibile. Lo scherzo, tripartito secondo schema A-B-A è naturale conseguenza del primo, scandito e scolpito, con quei violoncelli in primo piano meravigliosi alla fine della sezione A. Il trio lascia trasparire quella gioia di vivere che era tipica di Beethoven, contrariamente a quanto tramandato nei libracci che ci propinano. Il finale è liberazione, gioia, felicità, guidate da una volontà feroce di farcela. Il destino è vinto e l'uomo Beethoven è, come sempre, libero. Il più grande artista e genio della storia dell'umanità, l'unico assieme a Michelangelo, a mio modesto modo di vedere, ad aver conosciuto Dio, condotto alla perfezione dal più grande direttore vissuto, Celibidache per l'appunto.
Sono assolutamente d'accordo! L'averlo ascoltato dal vivo a Monaco nei primi anni Novanta è stata per me, come musicologo, una delle esperienze più straordinarie della mia vita!
Ich habe mir zur 5. Sinfonie von Beethoven 6 verschiedene Dirigenten und Orchester angehört - dieses ist die transparenteste, werknächste und schönste Intepretation.
when we speak about destiny we should pay some respect to this notion and probably slow it down while still moving forward.I think this is one of the best interpretation I have heard.
In spite of being Romanian, Celibidache is the direct heir of the great German musical tradition, specifically Fürtwangler. Many of the other great German conductors share part or most of this noble musical tradition, von Karajan to mention just one. The great Beethoven symphonies deserve no less. No period instruments, no fast tempos. Majestic, olympian renderings, old Ludwig would not have settled for less.
Actually...I have thought about it. He is far more romanian than he is german. A german respects everything rigorously. He respects jaywalking. Germans respect paying taxes..They respect the law as their own religion. So best be sure a German conductor respects the tempo given by the composer. Beethoven would probably have hated Celi's way of conducting this piece and all his other pieces. So it's fair to say that Celi do not have a german mentality at all. So if he is not German what is he then? Well obiviously the opposite to German to is the Romanian mentality. Just like Celibidache we don't give flying f about rules of engament. Make no mistake. Celi is the way he is because he is Romanian.
Beethoven, Celibidache, je vous aime ! Fan inconditionnel !!! Merveilleuse interprétation ! "Prémonitoire" de la Pastorale ! Quelle liberté de choix (au pluriel) dans l'orchestration, je redécouvre l'oeuvre !
RImarcabile versione di questa celebrissima sinfonia beethoveniana! Il noto "Maestro" non si cura qui del lato interpretativo "spirituale, psicologico o metafisico" dell'Opera, ma la ricerca del proposito nel: "suono"! Le sonorità di tutte le sezioni e di tutti i singoli strumenti sono messi qui in netta evidenza ,(grazie anche all' eccellente ripresa tecnica del suono) Una vera lezione di musica orchestrale !
Your comment reminds me of an episode between Celibidache and Kleiber. One time Celibidache and Kleiber happened to be on the same plane. The two men were never on friendly terms and they hardly talked during the flight. But on one occasion Celi bumped into Kleiber and said, "How come do you play everything so fast?"
Brilliant!! Such beautiful texture to this musical masterpiece! For example the grandiosity of the last movement is allowed to settle over you. You are not rushed like a bunch of tourists through the Sistine Chapel. The second movement... just amazing!!! I can listen to it ten times in a row. Celibidache rules!
Many conductors play this way too fast sacrificing all the important details, nuances, and color. That means they play the notes, not the music. Sad and terrible. The worst thing is those conductors do not know it.
@@maumusa123 lmao one thing Celi NEVER does is rush! I'm no expert but I've never heard anyone make "taking one's time" mean more. and he always gets such exquisite playing out of the orchestra. It's like he's luxuriating in the music and prolonging the ecstasy.
Li preguntaven a Celibidache en una entrevista: - Mestre, per què és tan exigent amb els seus músics i els sotmet a assajos extenuants? i ell responia: - Perquè jo busco la perfecció per tal que tu descobreixis la teva grandesa. Com més perfecta sigui la nostra interpretació més aproparem l'espectador a la Bellesa, més a prop el farem de l'Art. Tenim una gran responsabilitat. per això són exigent. L’art, l’artista, desperta amb el seu compromis i la seva obra la bellesa amagada dins nostre. En la mesura que captem la bellesa dins nostre reconeixem l’art
Celibidache odiaba la palabra belleza. Para él, lo bello era la carnaza, lo primero que se ve, y detrás estaba la verdad, la vivencia. ¡La música eres tú! nos decía el maestro. Porque al llegar los sonidos del fenómeno físico de la sala, sólo eres tú el que los abraza, los transforma en tu mente y los empatiza con tus vivencias, recuerdos, sensaciones físicas del momento. Por eso la música no se puede aprehender, nace y muere cada vez, la música eres tú y sólo tú. Y por eso una grabación es una pobre, reducida y muy diferente experiencia de aquello que en su momento fue y ya nunca volvió a ser. Y desde luego, desde la experiencia puramente sonora, creo que los que tuvimos la inmensa suerte de asistir a los conciertos de Celi en directo saben que es otra cosa, y que la grabación está muy alejada de aquellas fascinantes experiencias que empezaban en lo sonoro y acababan en nuestras propias vivencias. Yo nunca sentí lentitud, ni rapidez, en la sala de concierto los sonidos eran tan ricos y tan matizados que el tiempo fluía de manera natural...sin nada más que añadir...
Celibidache highlights something of a dichotomy in the first movement. With Celibidache's version, it is slow so you can absorb many of the parts that simply disappear when played at a faster tempo. If played with the allegro tempo originally intended, you get the dramatic effect that the piece is supposed to convey but you potentially miss out on all the little bits. Perhaps Beethoven, who was going deaf at the time of composing it, was mistaken in putting too much depth into a piece with such a fast tempo? Maybe in his mind, he could hear everything but in the concert hall, the little bits are lost due. One wonders how many composers of orchestral music go away and change their compositions after hearing them played for the first time? Does orchestral composition actually require an iterative approach that is found in engineering design? When engineers design say a car, the initial prototype is never the version that goes out to market. There are many months of testing, fine tuning and redesign as issues which were not apparent in the office show up during testing. Does the same apply to orchestral composition? PS: It would be interesting to see a discussion (or probably heated argument) between Celibidache and Beethoven on how this piece should be played.
From the industrial revolution our way of life became more agitated... There are many orchestra directors who claim that our Allegro is much faster than the Allegro of the time of Beethoven. I actually think that Celibidache is what Beethoven wanted. For example, Adagio means "At walking speed"... obviously, our way of walking today has become much faster than that of the nineteenth century.
I have both, von Karajan and Celibidache. One is fast and dramatic, the other one is sentimental. The difference between them is the tempo! Celibidache is the winner! Also Beethoven!
You are absolutely right. I sometimes arrange music for string quartet without the use of any instrument then (after completing it) play it and am forced to change things which looked right on paper but didn't really work in practice.
I do not find Chelibidache too slow because he knows how to fill the time with details of interpretations which we do not find in aiothr conductors' interprtations. The true music is somewhere between the notes.
@@iulianpuiu7240 Beethoven a câștigat prin voința lui împotriva destinului și zeilor dacă exită ei ca și Oedipul lui Enescu. Oamenii au talent și prin munca lor îl dezvoltă. Dacă este un zeu, își vede de treburile lui, nu-i pasă de noi.
@@didierschein8515 Asta este o viziune simplista. Ce ne atinge in lucrarile lui este spiritul si nu maiestria. Iar spiritul are legatura cu creatorul. Beethoven credea la fel.
@@iulianpuiu7240 Munca omului nu a fost ușoară ca să poată ajunge la capodopere. Mi-se pare simplistă credința că cele mai bune realizări ale oamenilor sunt datorite unor zei iar tragediile omenește sunt numai de vina noastră. Numai noi suntem responsabili de răul și de binele pe care i-am săvârșit. Am ajuns unde am ajuns pentru că am lucrat, învățat, progresat și distrus cu răbdare, secol după secol. Și spiritualitea este măiestria și mândra noastră. Dacă au fost un sau mai mulți creatori. ei se tot odihnesc acuma: Dar nu cred c-au fost.
don't forget the political nuance of this symphony in that time in Austria. Best moments for me: the end of the 2nd movement, and the transition between the third and fourth. And, here, as in other symphonies, you can listen to Celi at the beginining of the third movement. 10/10.
Teri TV - Televiziunea Mămicilor; Do you mean, everybody play's it to fast? :-) The Bolero is really beautiful how he leads it, also a bit slower and that gives the Bolero so much more inpact. ...Especially with the Munich orchestra.
MusikundLyrik; Sergio plays the Adagio (slow and stately) typically a little bit slower as normal. That's why I like his Bolero. But, I really don't know much about classic. :-)
Haha, hair style. But under hair Sergiu Celibidache was a genius. He was a very smart person with 3 Dr. Title. He was the greatest Conductor in the world.
The first movement is too slow, too ponderous. It is marked allegro con brio. There is simply not enough drive here. This movement should be played fast enough for the conductor to use an alla breve beat. The third movement is even more sluggish. It’s really painful to hear. Brass is so loud that the melody is drowned in non-thematic material. Moreover, Celibadache uses altogether too much rallentando. All in all, this about the worst Fifth ever recorded. Almost anyone else does it better. For the very best, choose Carlos Kleiber’s rightly celebrated version.
+MusikundLyrik I don't know what are you talking about, but it must be true since you are using such words. :) Nevertheless I would not say is the worst, is different and I do enjoy it.
Allegro means joyful, happy and con brio means with fire. It is ridiculous to mention a tempo as speed. Tempo is all about character. From your comment I indicate you have not any idea about music.
+Benedikt Schlegel Ummm.... You may want to reconsider your last statement and be more careful and thoughtful about the things you say. Allegro does not mean joyful or happy at all. Nor does con brio mean with fire; con fuoco means with fire. Allegro means a quick, brisk, lively tempo, and con brio means with vigor and energy. Allegro con brio means to be played at a brisk, lively tempo with vigor and energy. al·le·gro əˈleɡrō/ MUSIC adjective & adverb 1.(especially as a direction) at a brisk tempo. In a quick, lively tempo, usually considered to be faster than allegretto but slower than presto. Used chiefly as a direction. con bri·o kän ˈbrēō,kōn/ adverbMUSIC (especially as a direction) with vigor. With great energy; vigorously. Used chiefly as a direction. And tempo has everything to do with speed and nothing whatsoever to do with character. Character is actually indicated by the musical direction, in this case, con brio. Tempo literally means "time" in Italian. In musical terminology, tempo [ˈtɛmpo] ("time" in Italian; plural: tempi [ˈtɛmpi]) is the speed or pace of a given piece or subsection thereof, how fast or slow. tem·po ˈtempō/Submit noun 1. MUSIC the speed at which a passage of music is or should be played. synonyms: speed, cadence, rhythm, beat, time, pulse; More 2. the rate or speed of motion or activity; pace. The exact tempo of a piece if indicated is done so using a "metronome mark, M.M." and specifies the exact speed in beats per minute that the music should be played at. I have literally just checked the score and the first movement is marked Allegro con brio. Half note equals 108 with a time signature of 2/4. It is played a bit slowly here, slower than many others take it, but I will say that metronome marks are not always strictly adhered to. Personally I found it a tad bit too slow, but I actually prefer it to some of the really fast performances which are common. I'd just implore you to be a bit more careful and diligent about what you say, especially when you're casting aspersions on someone.
When great musicians play the classics, they often like to recreate the exact feel of a piece of music. But when playing Beethoven, many musicians completely disregard the tempo markings on his original sheet music. Sixty-six out of 135 of them have been regarded as “absurdly fast and thus possibly wrong,” writes Sture Forsen in a new paper published in the American Mathematical Society. Now, mathematic and musical detectives have discovered that perhaps Beethoven’s tempo was so strange for a simple reason-his metronome was broken. It’s worth checking out the entire paper, but the premise of their work is to figure out the “possible mathematical explanations for the “curious” tempo markings.” Here’s the story they tell. Beethoven got his metronome from a man named Johann Nepomuk Mälzel, who was something of a mechanical wizard. He made little musical automatons, tiny robots that could play music that the public very much enjoyed. Beethoven and Mälzel connected when Beethoven was looking for help in dealing with his hearing loss, and Mälzel made him several ear trumpets. The two most likely also discussed the issue of timekeeping, as Mälzel had been working on metronomes. Mälzel went on to invent more automatons, like the famous Mechanical Turk who played chess, but he continued his work on metronomes, as well. In 1812 he heard about an invention by Dietrich Winkel, who had created a double pendulum device. Mälzel hurried to Amsterdam to meet Winkel and realized that his rival had a metronome far superior to his own. He tried to buy the invention, but Winkel refused. So Mälzel simply made a copy and patented it in London, Paris and Vienna. Around the same time, Mälzel was trying to swindle Beethoven. There was a later debate between them over who owned the rights to a piece of music Mälzel suggested and Beethoven composed. They went to court over it. Historians think that, around 1815, Mälzel might have sent Beethoven a metronome as a sign of forgiveness and peace, and by 1817 Beethoven certainly had one of Mälzel’s devices-the one he used to write all the crazily timed pieces. Fast forward to today, and music historian Peter Stadlen has actually located Beethoven’s metronome. But the heavy weight was gone so he couldn’t test its operation. Which brings us to the mathematicians on this paper. They looked at the mechanical properties of the double pendulum metronome, to figure out which parts alter the device’s performance the most. What they found, in looking into the history of metronomes, the mathematics of their behavior and the music of Beethoven is that the master’s metronome was probably not working so well: Incredibly, the broken metronome-along with hearing loss, lead poisoning and meddling inventors-didn’t stop Beethoven from composing some of the most memorable music of his time. Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/was-beethovens-metronome-wrong-9140958/#2irKjVg6r6xS4c0o.99 Follow @SmithsonianMag on Twitter
El traje del emperador: muchos aquí no se atreven a disentir para no ser calificados de estúpidos. Disentir ante lo evidente, como pasaba con esos falsos tejedores del cuento de Andersen.
Veo que muchos repiten el lugar común de que con estos tempi "se absorben mejor los detalles de la obra". Entonces ¿Somos idiotas musicales que si el tempo se incrementa, ya no nos da tiempo de "absorber" los detalles? Qué absurda aseveración.
Yes, in terms of speed. (By the way, should we hurry to finish all pleasant activities ?) Mercedes Benz = cast aluminium BMW = cast iron Dacia = engraved Gold.
Oh god!! Way too slow, no aggression, or passion either this is not good. Kleiber destroys this performance, his performance actually makes the hairs rise on my neck with its power. The first movement here has no power or bite.
So slow, as everything from Celibidache. There is no musical explanation for being slow, it was just a marketing ploy. Don't believe all the mystical justifications, like "tempo is relative" etc. it's all bullshit. Being slow was the only way for him to be noticed. And sometimes it works, like in Dvorak's 9th and Beethoven's 6th. Here not so much.
It´s obviously you´re not psychological cut to indulge Celibidache way for conducting music. In order to understand Celibidache you have understand the willing for existentialisc suffering through beauty. In order to that, you have to slow down your life, your perception of reality.
Allegro con brio for a piece written in 2/4 time with the three 8th notes that define this movement would make this interpretation not at all too slow! There is a reason why Beethoven chose 2/4 and 8ths as opposed to 4/4 and 16ths, which is how you would notate the piece if you actually wanted it played at the speed common today. Beethoven himself is reported to have said the motif is fate knocking on a door. Well, just try knocking on a door in rapid 16th notes and tell us how that sounds like fate. More like a woodpecker!
+Nikolaos Kal, I'm afraid you are incorrect here. This is almost certainly the tempo Beethoven intended per the metronome markings. The confusion arises when modern musicians interpret double-beat metronome markings as single-beat. Today we use the single-beat almost exclusively, but in Beethoven's time, another way of using the metronome was also in use. Two "ticks" of the metronome would symbolize one full beat, just like a conductor's 'up-down' with his baton. Taking the 5th Symphony at single-beat, we end up with a first movement so fast that is virtually never recorded at that speed. However, this recording is what would result from taking the double-beat approach. It's both playable, and exposes many harmonic and thematic material that would be impossible at twice this speed.
