@@ISleepAndIKnowThings Maybe not lovable, but I sympathize with him. With such a horrible childhood, going to the others was the best choice for him. And the others had to wipe out Dharma because Dharma was endangering their life on the island (also the experiments Dharma was doing with the island's core were probably a threat to all mankind)
Poor Ben this might actually be the most relatable speech of all time. "What was it that was so wrong with me?" That is a truly haunting question, and if anyone ever has to ask it you know destiny has decided to be cruel to you.
To think Cuse and Lindelof were going to write out ‘Henry Gale’ after a handful of episodes. I’m glad they saw Emerson for the uniquely talented actor that he is.
That's insane. Ben is one of the most instrumental characters on the show. Without him, the story would have had to go in a completely different direction.
@@RunstarHomernot really, they likely would’ve just gotten a different person to play Ben, who would’ve been different than Henry Gale. still i doubt they would’ve been as good at playing it as Emerson
A few things to make clear here: the main crux of this scene is intended to be that Ben, after killing his own father, had come to seek Jacob as a replacement father figure. This is very much a son angry with his father for never showing him any attention. Ben's daddy issues are pretty much the driving force behind his entire character and the reason he's such a man child. The reality was that Ben was treated no differently to any other leader - I think the show should have made this clearer but Jacob DOES NOT intervene directly with The Others. He appointed Richard to do that, and only Richard. Meaning there is no leader in the history of their society who has been granted an audience with Jacob. It's just something Richard dangles in front of the leader to make them easier to control. He says that rule repeatedly "no one goes into the statue unless Jacob invites them in". You can tell when Fake Locke arrives in S5 that Richard is not used to having his authority threatened. He is majorly pissed that he is insisting on seeing Jacob and even wants to take The Others with him. Richard is the first Other and the father of their society - he is the advisor only by choice and has the leader over a barrell. That's the reality. When he wants them gone they're gonna be gone. But with Ben he honestly believed he was different - that Jacob had chosen him, saved his life etc. So he took it BADLY when Richard never granted him an audience with Jacob. In his view his father was ignoring him, despite his years of loyal service. The reality was that Jacob never saw Ben as any different to any of the other people he brought to the island. He was testing him. He was a candidate originally and his position as Leader put him in a prime position to display his ability to replace Jacob as protector but he ultimately showed he was selfish, manipulative and interested only in having power. So he got his name crossed off and dissapointed Jacob who ultimately wanted to prove people are not inherently corruptible - Ben hardly helped prove that point, any one of his many sins could have got him crossed off the candidate list. So in that regard Jacob's "what about you?" Is fairly obvious and understandable
Tasorius Jacob wanted to be killed. All part of the plan to set things in motion.. he still appeared as an apparition after.. and Hurley could see him. But he had to die..
This is why I love true fans of LOST. It's a series that is very easy to write several paragraphs about... even when the topic is just one aspect of a single scene.
Armchair philosophy 101 >watching a scene from a show you haven't seen, out of context >make freudian statement because you heard something about father complexes once
Which of course ties up with why Ben didn’t move forward into the next life with all the others in the Church in the finale. He said that he still had issues to resolve before he could do that.
God i love this scene. Jacob knows he's going to be killed. But he kept his faith in humanity, hoping he was wrong about Ben in particular. Jacob could have easily stopped this by exposing MiB as not being Locke. But he didn't, he wanted to prove his brother wrong. Plus after 2000 years I think it's time to retire from any job.
Loved this scene. The way jacob's face is filmed; half of it illuminated by light, the other half obscured in the shadow. And the way he stares at Ben while he monologues. It's brilliant.
Devastator941 But Jacob's whole ideology was that humans are inherently good, and pure. He was banking on Ben realizing and recognizing his faults, accepting his failures and understanding why he couldn't have been chosen. "It becomes meaningless if I have to tell them what to do." - Jacob.
My theory: Jacob deliberately goaded Ben into stabbing him. Since Jacob and MIB were both bound by “the rules” to not hurt each other, the only way to kill MIB for good was to get a new protector not bound by “the rules”. And for that to happen, Jacob had to die.
"What about me?" "Wait Ben, I'll explain you, but this isn't Locke. This is my brother and the smoke mosnter and I need you to wait outside to talk with him." The End
Captain Rogers jacob dosent want to have to explain anything. Hes betting that ben will not kill him out of the goodness of his heart. Thats his whole thing.
Kinda just realised that Jacob actually chose to get killed here, he is 2000 years old and as we have seen before he is very good at fighting, but he didn't even try to resist, he just stood there and took the stabs, kinda even deliberataly triggered ben into doing it. Because he somehow knew it was the only way to make this endless curse finally end.
@@exiaR2x78 He set up every single event. He ignored Ben and treated him that way all those years specifically because he knew MIB would try to manipulate people into killing him. He created the rift between him and Ben so that Ben would be someone MIB would look to manipulate, but it was all part of Jacob's plan. MIB even knew this somewhat, but he also hoped that Jacob would make a mistake that would allow him to win despite Jacob's plans. A lot of the things Jacob did to set things up, was actually after he was killed here. Even though he was dead, for a time, his spirit was free to time travel, and that's the Jacob you see every time he meets someone off the island before they ever even came to the island. He visits them to set the chain of events in motion. He might even be able to go back and change things if they don't turn out like how he wanted, so killing Jacob was never a useful thing to MIB, because Jacob always had the ability to go back in time after being killed. Which means he could tweak how things went, to get a different outcome, and MIB could have had him killed a dozen different times in a dozen different ways by a dozen different people, with MIB not realizing that Jacob was always able to go back and tweak things regardless of what MIB did. For Jacob, it was merely finding the right tweak of events to get the outcome he wanted. So Jacob was essentially in a time loop after he died, but one he could control, not the type where you're destined to repeat the same events over and over.
I always thought this scene was like a superb metaphor for Man (Ben) speaking to God (Jacob). Watch it again and think about it, you'll see what I mean.
The same God that wants people to be so faithful that they will sacrifice their own children for him. It does fit. He is just as self-righteous as that creature.
NC Quadraxis That did lead to his loss of innocence and sparked a chain reaction later on causing the dharma initiative to hostile grounds with the survivors, he then later kills his father and alongside the others kills the entire dharma initiative
I currently feel like Ben at this moment and trying to figure out what's wrong with me. And I kind of feel like as soon as you let your insecurities and jealousy get a hold of you and you start questioning everything like "what about me" that immediately eliminates your candidacy. Because being annoying and insistent far lessens your chance at getting any type of reward.
"Why should I have to force them to do anything?" didn't he say something along those lines to Richard earlier? Is this why he didn't say anything to change Ben's mind? When Ben is upset and you see Jacob looking at him, it looks like his eye is tearing up. And we learn later that he "hoped he was wrong about" Ben up until the very end. If so, why was it so important to Jacob to uphold these "laws" or rule that he set himself? Some things are meant to be vague and a mystery, but there are too many questions
Does anyone find this scene similar to the one from The Leftovers when Matt confronts God (David Burton)? They both claimed being loyal and sacrificing their lives for the greater good, soon to be realized all they did they did mostly for themselves although in different fashion.
This answer is exactly what all your Gods/God would say to you: "What about you?" because they/he doesn't give a shit about any of you no matter how devoted you are lmao
+Saeed Vazirian No it was DESERVED! Jacob wanted it done so he would no longer have to be protector of the island...he was ALWAYS looking for a way out...IMO. Ben felt guilty because he ISN'T, as people believe, A TOTAL ASSHOLE! He killed Jacob out of fear and hurt...which most of us WOULD have done in that situation. But Jacob was withholding and using Ben and was not as open as he could have been...yeah...Jacob was an ASS that deserved to die!
it seems like people dont understand this lol.. mib wanted to leave the island through the light which their mother was sworn to protect it. and she loved him too so she ddnt want her son ( not really) to leave the island. so when she saw they people have found out about the light she killed them all because she has to protect it from the people. mib gets angry and kills her mother, jacob gets angry and throw him in the light. he becomes a monster and still wants to leave the island but this time he is a smoke and isnt human anymore like their mother said if they go down there they will die or worse, now thats worse because he isnt human anymore just a thing. so jacob brings people to show him that people arent bad but mib says otherwise. so mib trys to manipulate people to kill jacob but jacob always wins, till oneday mib finds his loophole and brings ben with him, jacob still thinks that ben will listen to him but ben was really hurt and angry because of her daughter so he kills him. was a surprise for jacob but jacob had a plan b if he were to go then the candidates will take his place. its that simple lol. and jacob couldnt let him go because the smoke monster was dangerous with his sickness and it was like a commitment to the island which he and her mother had and thats why even the others werent supposed to leave because because thats the price they had to pay
I don't blame Ben one bit here. He basically sacrificed Alex, and so many others he cared about, for Jacob and the Island. He'd made himself so blinded in his faith, even selfishly faithful at times, that when Ben was finally allowed to meet Jacob (God), he was suddenly faced with the idea that the reasons for having lost the people he cared about, losses that people of faith always deem as "necessary sacrifices", might never actually be answered... That's enough to drive any person to the point of wanting to murder Jacob (God). It's like in real-life, where people of faith are tested over and over and over, only to suffer again and again and again, and all too often they lose their faith entirely. Ben is essentially the Anti-Job of Lost.
"what about you" meant look into yourself. It wasn't a spiteful comment, like these Jacob haters tend to think. There's no malice in his voice. It's all explained in season 6.
Cody Mitcham Well Jacob never had the intention to let Ben be the next guardian or whatever, Ben was just.. Ben you know. I love that arrogant answer towards him. What about you? Just another man on this island - me gusta
+Cody Mitcham I think if that was his intention, he could've worded it in a more kind way. He had to know Ben would take offense to that kind of wording- Ben was obviously very fragile and emotional at that moment, and "What about you?" just sounded demeaning and didn't answer his desperate plea to know why he had to suffer all that time. I don't know if I would have killed Jacob over it but I'm sure I would've slapped him across the face.
This show has a LOT of depth and most lines mean way more than they appear to be. It goes over the heads of many, that's why so many people don't love this show. They don't get it. If they did, they would love it!
Yes, there was more to the statement, "what about you"...he DID want Ben to look at himself and his own life choices...I also KNOW that Jacob wanted Ben to be upset and stab him or kill him in some way....just like his adopted mother, he was ready to let go...and wanted to THANK the person who released him from that life...that is why he had so many candidates surrounding him...
The idea that Jacob wanted to be stabbed is debunked in Season 6. It's made clear that Jacob hoped he was wrong about Ben and that he wouldn't go through with it
"What about me?". Who among us has not had a girl in our lives who made us ask that question. Or "what was it that was so wrong with me?". Two very relatable lines
Bro Ben is a savage. Dude killed some pretty damn powerful people. Keamy is a super solider. Widmore has tons of power and sway in the world. Jacob is an ageless protector of an endless energy source. Ben is just some fucking nerd and he dominates the island I love it
Jacob doesn't want to have to convince anyone to do the right thing, even if that is often not the best idea as shown here. It's also possible that Jacob wanted to die.
Classic scene. The Moses/God references spells it out for you on the symbolism. For centuries man will always wander why God doesn't convey himself clearly and plainly in supernatural form. If you believe in the Bible, he has before and we failed him anyways and we'll continue to do what we want regardless of what he does..so what about us? We're just men.
No. You haven;t understood the real message. The idea is that we blame God (kill Jacob) after all, then we learn the message that Ben did. God ( here analogically Jacob), did this for the betterment of humankind against sin and evil, and later we embrace that, and return to His memory.
Yepprd sure whatever, its just another fairytale. moses was wiser than the god of the bible anyway as exodus 32:11-14 clearly shows. this fucking idiot god had to be told to repent of his evil by a man and this god took this mans advice and repented. what a stupid, malevolent god lacking of any foresight. omniscient my motherfucking ass. the god of the bible and jesus are the worst characters of any work of fiction because youre right, they deliberately talk in riddles and parables with an air of self righteousness to confuse people. they openly admit they do it so people cant understand and go to hell -Mark 4:11-12. this goes well with god deliberately taking peoples free will away and hardening their hearts so they cannot feel sorry and turn from their ways so they go to hell (John 12:40, Romans 9:18, Exodus 9:12). fuck jacob, fuck your god.
Ben's story arc ties into what Jacob told Richard almost 2 centuries earlier about wanting the people he brought onto the island helping themselves. It was all meaningless if he stepped in. MiB found that loophole with Richard and it took him that long to carry out his brother's death. Every candidate had mental, psychical, or psychologically problems but Ben had a metaphorical defect, the blind worshipper. Ben was used and even the island tried to step in when it refused to heal him, que Jack's introduction to the Others.
People keep saying Jacob was on the island for like 2000 years. Um, no. He was on the island at best, for around 400-500 years. In reality, Jacob was a selfish, self-righteous asshole who believed he was the good one and brought people to the island to show to his brother, the man in black, that humans weren't all as bad as his brother said they were. The man in black knew the nature of humans, was wiser than Jacob, was smarter than Jacob, hell, he was even older than Jacob. He and Jacob were never supposed to be on the island, but their pregnant mother was shipwrecked and they were born on the island, and the previous guardian immediately killed their mother selfishly, in the hopes of raising the two boys up to one day take the guardian's place as the new guardian. The man in black, Jacob's brother, knew they didn't belong on the island, knew the guardian woman wasn't their mother as she lied about, and was just trying the entire time to go back home, to go back to where he belonged, and ASSHOLE Jacob wouldn't let him. Let's not forget that Jacob tried to murder his brother and ended up instead accidentally turning him into the smoke monster. How can people not realize this? The good guy was THE MAN IN BLACK! The bad guy was JACOB, all along! Self-righteous pretentious asshole with a god-complex vs. normal brother just trying to go home to his real family.
+Yuilen I LOVE IT! What a good defense of MIB and Ben, by proxy! Jacob WAS an asshole! He COULD have been more forthcoming and open and NONE of the the stupid shit that happened to the Losties would have happened...but NOOOO....and yeah...he was a douche to his brother too...WHAT A DICK!
In retrospect, the scene makes very little sense. Jacob was perfectly capable of defending himself as he proved with Richard and he knew Ben was there to kill him and the MiB couldn't intervene. He should pummelled Ben, or at least disarmed him as he easily did with Richard.
There's one thing about this that always was weird to me. The MIB and Jacob have this rule where they can't kill each other, right. So MIB's grand plan that's taken him centuries to figure out is just to let someone else kill Jacob. That's probably the very first solution you'd think of if you were the MIB. And it's not like it takes someone super tough or special; Ben was able to kill him with a pocket knife. He surely would have been able to talk one of the dudes on the Black Rock in to shooting Jacob with a musket.
billygowhoop and the other funny thing is.Jacob was still alive after getting stabbed..it was getting burned alive that killed him when MIB kicked him in...MIB actually killed him
Jacobs response was perfect, exactly what a weasel gamma like Ben needs to here that your not the center of the universe boy.....Jacob true alpha dude for sure, I love Ben to just being honest. This also helped Ben to finally man up down the road to.
As much as I love this scene, how did MiB know that Jacob would be a dick to Ben. I feel like Jacob chose his words poorly, if he knew MiB was bringing a pawn to kill him, why straight up act like a dick to a volatile psycho?
This scene made me realize something crucial about Ben and Juliet's relationship. They were actually kindred spirits. They were the both sides of the same coin. They were one of a kind. Just like Juliet, Ben was battling with self-esteem issues. He's spent years following Jacob's orders and doing unforgivable things to his service to the island. But in the end it was all for nothing because his loyalty was never respected. He felt Locke was trying to take his place as the protector of the island so he came to resent Locke for that. The truth was Ben knew more about the island than Locke. So thoroughly Ben felt betrayed. I believe the real reason why Juliet came to hate Ben was because she saw herself in him. She could relate to him. She's always felt inferior and receiving any kinds of a appreciation or respect for her loyalties. That's why Ben became obsessed with her because he saw himself in her too. Plus she also reminded him of that blonde woman who worked at the motor pool at the Barracks before he was shot by Sayid in 1977. He remembers Juliet from 1977.
The irony being that Jacob bringing the candidiates to the Island after hearing about them in the past including Sayid is the reason Ben being so corrupt sfter behng shot by him and healed by the water/MiB. Lol
The Candidates. Thats why MIB looked afraid And push Jacob into the fire so he can die faster and MiB dies not have to deal with another protector on the island and finally leaving
Jacob purposely goated ben because he knew that ben would be the only one to kill him and free him of his position as did the man in black.that was bens purpose. I personally think jacob was a dick though .he ripped people from their lives (wether they were unhappy or not shouldn't matter) just so he could get out of his job
Neither Jacob nor the Man in black was right. In my mind they both had issues. Jacob was utterly selfless but was all too naive, the Man in black was far too selfish but understood humanity just a bit better.
abdul rahman uhm no, Ben lived his own life and made his own choices while Jacob merely observed. There are no excuses for Ben, he did some seriously messed up stuff so it seems logical why Jacob ignores him.
Jacob ignored everyone in The Others except for Richard, who he had appointed specifically to be the go between. This was the whole point of them, they were meant to be part of his experiment to show people can be good so he couldn't directly interfere. The mess that was caused can be attributed mainly to Richard who as the original Other was likely responsible for creating the weird as fuck customs they all abide by such as the reverence for Jacob and the leadership selection and all that other shit. The whole "leader gets to meet Jacob" thing was nothing more than an unwinnable prize Richard dangled in front of the leaders as a tool to maintain his control over them and his own position in the hierarchy. No leader was ever meant to meet Jacob, and until Fake Locke it's extremely likely no leader ever had during their tenure. Ben was no more ignored than any previous leader.
