21:08 “unfortunately for the character, he [Mr. Game and Watch] was probably completed around the tail end of the game’s development” No he wasn’t completed at all😂
Great video! Surprised to see that Melee Mewtwo wasn’t picked for the worst version. I do think that Melee Mewtwo is lowkey underrated tho and if Larry thinks that too then thats based
I wonder if that's what he meant to say, because after putting Sm4sh Mewtwo as best he said worst was a tossup between Sm4sh Mewtwo and Ultimate Mewtwo.
@@Migota_ mmm maybe honestly. Ult mewtwo has a crazy ahh shadow ball but melee mewtwo also has rly good vertical kill moves like fair. Also melee mewtwo has a better nair plus a wavedash that’s one of the longest in the game
I like these videos a lot! Larry has such a deep knowledge of all the smash games I *do* think Mewtwo's worst iteration is Melee, though. He's painfully light, and his poor horizontal hitboxes stack up exceptionally poorly against the game's top tiers.
Wanna address the Mewtwo comments I've been getting since that seems to be the opinion that sticks out the most to people. One thing I've seen brought up is Mewtwo's weight in Melee, he's actually lighter in both Smash 4 and Ultimate even after the weight buffs. Reminder when I say Mewtwo is worse I'm talking about prepatch Mewtwo in both Ultimate and 4. Ultimate Mewtwo(who is still considered a mid tier btw even after the buffs he's received) was lighter, utilt and uair were worse combo tools, usmash/bthrow/dsmash/shadow ball were weaker kill moves, some of his moves were less disjointed and he was easier to shield poke, dthrow could only combo at low percent, and his shadow ball was overall worse for combos and zoning. Prepatch Smash 4 Mewtwo got so many massive buffs to make him top tier. Not going to list everything, but to put it into perspective how massive the buffs were Mewtwo went from not even having a top 20 run speed to having a top 10 run speed in the game being faster than Sheik. Depending on the interested I might make a video talking about Melee, Smash 4, and Ultimate Mewtwo more in depth and how he got changed throughout the series
This is because I’m a content fiend, but I feel like if you are including pre patch versions, you should also quickly go over the worst “final game” version. It wasn’t necessary for Pichu as the result is the same, but w Mewtwo and Marth, in every games current tournament ruleset it would be melee and ultimate respectively. This isn’t to critique and criticize as it was an amazing video, and you said it was already a long production, it’s just a suggestion for more content. Or make it a RU-vid short. Love the content nonetheless and I’m excited for the Brawl edition
This was an enjoyable watch, I'm glad to see you continuing these kinds of videos. The only thing I disagree with is the worst version of Mewtwo, Pre Patch Ultimate Mewtwo is a fair pick, but I'd argue that Melee Mewtwo is worse. He doesn't have any safe and reliable KO options, Confusion just does not work, and many of his attacks are very small and weak, and he lacks any approach options compared to other characters. 4 and Ultimate Mewtwo were at least saved by patches, but Melee Mewtwo started low tier and stayed low tier.
I find videos on competitive play for previous smash titles fascinating. I'd love to see some more content out there of good players playing and discussing N64, Brawl, and 3DS Smash.
Melee Mewtwo is borderline midter in Melee while prepatch Smash 4 and Ultimate Mewtwo are low/bottom tier characters. Because of how unexplored the beginning of competitive Ultimate/Smash 4 was I think people don't remember how bad these characters were, they were REALLY bad
Love how as soon as you mention the tail hurtbox being bigger then it lines up with the footage already playing in the background showcasing him getting hit because of that bs hurtbox
The M2K clips in this video are quite entertaining. 3:45 Him totally dead serious stomping this bowser with shiek while the other guy giggles 14:30 Cheeky little gimp he pulled on zain in a marth ditto. fastfalling and using his up b to interrupt since zain was gonna recover low
I really like this video concept. It is unique and it is fun because I would pause the video and try to guess the answers. I hope you make a Brawl version in the future!
It's so fascinating how Brawl Zelda was buffed in nearly every aspect vs her Melee version, yet managed to be an even worse performing character due to the physics and pace of Brawl. Pre-patch S4 Zelda could definitely give her a run for her money though! She's such an odd character in the series; always changing each game but never being good. It's part of her charm for me though, since I've mained her for 15 years now. I think I need help...
@@TheBeggies95I think Falco vs floaties is a lot more creative, Falco vs fast fallers is pillars but what you do after can be creative as well. He definitely is bread and butter in a lot of stages of the game tho
There is a version of Sheik and Zelda that is even weaker than the ones described in this video, although they are probably the more forgotten versions. Pre-patch Ultimate Sheik was a very weak character. You basically take Ultimate Sheik where she is currently, and you make her forward air harder to land, her down smash barely work half the time, her down tilt harder to sweetspot, and her Needles being much worse between it charging at a slower rate and its landing lag canceled combos being essentially nonexistent. It was a version of Sheik that had a harder time initiating her higher damaging combos, a character that worked harder for neutral, and a character that had an even more inconsistent time KO'ing. She was considered weak at launch, and at least Brawl Sheik is considered by many modern Brawl players to be a fairly solid character. Pre-patch SSB4 Zelda is essentially taking Brawl Zelda and further nerfing her moveset. While she technically had a better combo game, it still wasn't good, and it was no where near as potent as what she would get later down the line in patch updates. She was considered to a strong contender for the weakest character in the game (alongside vanilla Charizard and Mii Swordfighter), and is only considered not a worst character contender thanks to patch 1.1.5.
Pre patch Sheik is not even that bad. Her camping and speed won her a lot of matchups, for example, she had good matchups against almost all sword fighters, heavies, and zoners. Her speed and frame data also allowed her to do decently against other faster/rush down characters too.
Ganon was the best character in melee because of his air forward attack (the punch), and also the fact that he can double jump, wizard foot ANOTHER DOUBLE JUMP, and then wizard dive to horizontally recover.
Are you saying he was the best character in melee or that the best version of ganon was melee? I would agree with the latter but I don't think you have seen fox if you are saying the former.
I don't see the sense in claiming Smash 4 Marth was the worst iteration of him and then having the reason be: "This outdated version of Smash 4 Marth was really bad.. despite the fact he got buffed later and became one of the better characters in the game anyway but imma talk about how he was before he became good." Wouldn't it be better to talk about Smash 4 Marth as he is now since.. he was no longer bad? That just ain't click to me at all. I personally think Ultimate Marth is the weakest version of him for sure.
Brawl Sheik was a good time. Definitely the weakest, but at the same time I think people were just starting to see the character was underlooked. She was getting some use in Japan from EARTH and Daiki, and her frame data combined with air release -> DACUS (which was such a cool looking kill confirm) made the MK matchup pretty doable (it was bad, but relatively good for her tier). ftilt locking the spacies was also kind of nice, only issue is she was garbage against Ice Climbers and Olimar. Fun character for me to practice, since the guy I played against often played Marth and Falco which are pretty even.
I saw Larry in person and wanted to debate some of his pick in the last video, but he had a tub of glitch with him so I turned around and kept my mouth shut.
Disagree about Ult Mewtwo being the worst. That title goes to Melee Mewtwo. Despite having some good traits, that character was slower than Smash 4 and Ultimate Mewtwo. It's Side B didn't work as a reflector or as a command grab, in fact, you could get punished for grabbing an opponent. Disable also saw no use because of it's lack of utility. Melee Mewtwo was an incomplete character that was a victim of the game's rushed development.
Can't wait for the Brawl cast version. There is going to be a LOT to talk about there. Brawl was a messed up game and the characters who debuted in it have some history to share.
I used to disagree that Brawl Zelda was the worst version of Zelda simply because I was so sold on her awful status in Melee for quite a number of years. My limited memory of Brawl only lead me to assume that she just was pretty unviable which could be said for most of Brawl's roster, but recent Slippi Era results from Melee Zelda have shown that not only does she have the potential to rise on the tier-list due to people exploring the character more, but the fall of characters like Roy, Ness, and Pichu in Melee have sort of shown me what it takes for a character to be truly irredeemably awful, and Brawl Zelda fits that bill. She has better moves than I think characters above her in Brawl have, but none of them allow her to advance her game-state and the shoddy reliability of multi-hits in Brawl means that even the moves that are good can often fail her. I've started to realize that having limited Win Conditions is infinitely better than having no Win Conditions but a marginally better neutral, and that exactly describes why I can now see Brawl Zelda as the uncontested worst. Which would shock me like 10 years ago, if you told me JMook could take games off Top Players on Slippi in Melee with Zelda back then I would have thought you were huffing copium so hard that you became delusional.
I’m already knowin thanks to the order of the roster Meta Knight would be the first for if an innate brawl one comes out and his best iteration should be extremely obvious 😂
Link is not just bad in 64 because of his recovery, his grab is terrible too! He has a tether grab in 64, and tethers are awful in 64 since they are slow and cannot be used as recovery in 64 unlike other games.
Whenever I play as Pichu in ultimate, I just panic as soon as Im at 30%. Like any strong hit is enough to kill me. Pichu hurting himself doesn’t help, it just makes him even easier to kill
They're definitely going to say pre patch diddy smash 4 for best and pre patch olimar ult for best. And he might say smash ult for sonic for best but I might not be as sure.
Diddy is a banana spawning demon in Brawl. I also agree that Brawl is where Olimar shined the most, having that man pikmin at once seems wild now in retrospect
From the outside looking in (never played competitive), Ice Climbers is such a scummy character. It seems bonkers to only require a grab to 0 to death every character while the enemy can literally only watch. How was this ever allowed in tournaments?
Still kinda baffled that Mewtwo in Melee didn't even get mentioned once when considering the worst version. I'm not sure who I think is worse since I don't play competitive or Melee in general that much but it would still be worth mentioning at least as to why pre-patch Smash Ultimate was chosen over Melee. Can't wait for Brawl btw
Melee Mewtwo is arguably worst than Ultimate and Smash 4. Its super light , it dies fast , it pretty slow , and it match up spreads is pretty bad. If you see Mewtwo destroying players , is probably Taj , Leffen or M2K been insane lmao.
It's always so important for me to remind myself that I'm not a competitive player and to not apply my own experiences to your opinions lmao I played an absolute metric ton of ivysaur in brawl and regularly kicked my friends' asses lmao. but I'm no comp player nor have I ever tried to be project m ivysaur best tho
I think that the worst sheik(not competively) should've been Melee in terms of moveset because in that game her side b means death,but the best version I think it's debateble between Smash 4 and Ultimate. In Ultimate there's Joker so she's underestimated,but she's still really good.
17:55 the best Version of Mewtwo was Project M 3.0 that boi was Broken even tho it’s a Modern Game I’d say 3.0 Mewtwo was the Best version Smash 4 at 2nd and 3rd ofc melee
I will argue that melee Zelda is actually the worst iteration of the character and that brawl zelda is just kind of an overall mediocre version of the character, which yes, I know Zelda is usually considered low tier trash in every game so that's not saying much, but at least she can kind of function in that game. Also, it's really slow, but her up tilt is really powerful for no reason, bordering on snake up tilt powerful. She at least feels like at least a complete character, just underpowered, but in melee, she is such a broken character, and not in a good way. Outside of her lightning kicks and down smash, most of her moves are bordering on not working, and this results in incredibly terrible version of the character who has to fish for the same moves over and over again. As a guy who plays her in every game, melee is the only one where I don't really bother. I'd argue sm4sh Zelda is pretty similar to Smash Ultimate Zelda in viability, because while both of them are low tier, smash 4 Zelda actually has decent normals, but middling specials,wereas Ultimate Zelda is vice versa. The only reason she's bottom three in that game is because the final patch actually made her a competent character, but because of how obscure she is in that game, nobody gave a fuck, and as such, I feel like she's more underrepresented than bottom tier, but honestly, considering it's smash 4 of all games, I'm fine if we leave that game to rot and never go back anyways.
I will try to predict the Brawl characters. I'm not an expert, so I will surely get some wrong Meta Knight Best: Gee! I wonder what it is guys! Can you guys help me here?! Worst: Ultimate Pit (that's an hard one) Best: Ultimate Worst: Brawl ZSS Best: Smash 4 Worst: Ultimate Wario Best: Ultimate Worst: Smash 4 Snake (another very hard one) Best: Ultimate Worst: Brawl Ike Best: Ultimate pre patch Worst: Brawl Pokemon Trainer/Charizard Best: Ultimate Worst: Brawl Diddy Kong Best: Smash 4 pre patch Worst: Ultimate pre patch Lucas Best: Ultimate Worst: Brawl Sonic Best: Ultimate (I know this might be a controversial one) Worst: Brawl King Dedede Best: Brawl Worst: Smash 4 Olimar Best: Brawl (there is an argument for pre patch Ultimate though) Worst: Smash 4 Lucario Best: Smash 4 Worst: Ultimate ROB Best: Ultimate Worst: Brawl Toon Link Best: Smash 4 Worst: Ultimate Wolf Best: Ultimate Worst: Brawl Don't hesitate to comment if you think I did something wrong, which I surely did.
for knowledge sake im gonna give you some information regarding your specultion pit’s best iteration is brawl he’s actually pretty good there and in japan he’s considered a low high tier, pit has gliding which opens up a whole array of movement tech to pit, his arrows are much faster and controlable in brawl, and his up B can travel under the stage so that pit can go to one end of the stage to the other (tho this tech of going understage is banned so maybe this is an interesting thing i can add up) snake’s best iteration is brawl, theres actually a lot of stuff he has in brawl that he doesn’t have in ultimate, he has DACUS (dash attack cancek up smash) which is one of the keystone techs brawl has but snake benefited it the most, his down smash is different from ultimate where he plants a claymore to the ground which gave snake immense stage control, his down throw setups are much better in brawl, and his up tilt is much better in brawl having what is essentially smash 64 kirby’s up tilt with killer kill power, tho brawl snake has a much worse side b little things i wanna add up like wario and toon link’s best iteration is arguably brawl, but then again its nothing too significant, and yes i do indeed agree smash ultimate’s sonic is thus far his best iteration its not that controversial dont worry, overall i dont disagree with most of those tbh hope you learnt something tho :)
@@JrdnKritz There is a legit argument for Pit being at his best in Brawl. That's why I said it was an hard one. However, I ended up saying Pit is at his worse there because he is like a high mid tier, in a game where the balance isn't very... present if I should say it like. Like being a high mid tier in Brawl can be considered worse than being a low mid tier in Ultimate, because in Ultimate any character can do well in the right hand, while Brawl can do much worse. And Pit is actually a good example of that, because we have seen Zackray doing several absolutely insane tournament runs with Pit, while unless I am mistaken, we didn't get that same kind of results with Pit in Brawl. This for similar reasons that Brawl Toon Link, and Brawl Wario weren't chosen for best (that and Smash 4 Toon Link and especially Ultimate Wario are very good anyway). For Brawl Snake it is a bit more complicated, because yes I do think Snake was ON ITS OWN, better in Brawl than in Ultimate. However, if we talk about how good the characters are compared to the rest of the cast, the two characters are pretty equal, since the top tiers of Brawl have more degenerate stuff than the top tiers of Ultimate. And honestly both are very close, but I think that in a meta where we see mostly Meta Knights everywhere, Snake has little more occasions to shine in Ultimate than in Brawl, but again, it's very close. Since you actually agree with me that Sonic was better in Ultimate than in Smash 4, I would say it is a case pretty similar to Snake being better in Ultimate than Brawl, because on paper, Sonic got nerfed in Ultimate due to the removal of spindash cancelling. In practice, Sonic does better in the meta of Smash Ultimate than the one of Smash 4 even with those nerfs. That being said, I really appreciate getting comments like this. It was very interesting to read.
is brawl falco not the best falco? that short hop double laser, the chaingrab, dacus... sure he doesn't have shine so no pillar combos, but he's still a top 4 character in that game too for a reason.
Mewtwo's worst iteration is easily Melee lmao. Some moves straight up just doesnt work, like side B is just pure trash in that game. Prepatch Smash 4 and Ultimate still works at the very least, but Melee's version is so brokenly bad people cried to not include him in Brawl.
