Thanks Sam for helping to bust this myth. I co-host Blind Android Users Podcast and dispelling this is one of our main goals. It's great that all major operating systems are accessible enough for us to make the choice for ourselves the way everyone else can.
what is your podcast, i'm interested in switching back to android but I know Talkback is a nightmare to use i've tried it and hated it. but that's probably cuz it was a samsung? maybe it's better on pixel
@@BG4life13 it's called "Blind Android Users Podcast". If the reason you hated TalkBack was the performance, then processor is what matters most, not brand. A Pixel will be better than a cheap Samsung phone, but a premium Samsung will perform better than a Pixel.
@@johndyer well i'm going to try the s23u and see how it goes, i have been impressed with things like google lookout and the gestures to open apps ect but TB for whatever reason just hasn't workked for me, only thing that worries me is i'm deep into the Apple ecosystem but i want to step out of it and try something different lol. thanks, and great podcast btw
Hey Sam, great video, Just a heads up there were some problems with your audio, it goes to static at times, have a listen. You summed things up really well re OSs. I have worked as a tech trainer in the low vision/blindness area for over 20's years and there are a couple of things I'd add. You should consider what OS a prospective employer would use if you looking at employment I'd say it's nearly 99% Windows. Then there are the costs, voiceover is free on the Mac JAWS is very expensive and then there are the upgrades every year. Then again maybe you can get it funded. You could go with NVDA. NVDA is great but lacks some of the things JAWS does. As you say it's different for everyone, nowadays some people can do on their phone or tablet what they previously did on their computer. Almost all of my clients are on iPhone with VoiceOver and MS Windows and Office 365 on PC with JAWS. Keep up the great work. 💚
Yep agree, there are addons for nvda that can make it more like jaws so i am just using NVDA with a few addons on my home computer and i use jaws on the computer at work
@David_Beames i use outlook extended, systray list and say product name and version to name a few, go to the nvda menu, tools, addons and install from there
@@joshua476 Thank you very much, I will check that out. I've been doing a lot more work with clients interested in using AI with JAWS this year. I started with ChatGPT but am now favouring Perplexity. Both have a lot of unlabelled buttons but it's been easier to work around with Perplexity. Do you have any recommendations?
I agree with an exception that I'm using my Android to do all the work. I haven't really used my Windows laptop since 2022, simply because I cand do professional sound editing and recording using my Android phone or tablet.
The dates on VoiceOver and zoom support on Mac didn't sound right to me, so i looked it up. They were both added in Mac OS X Tiger (version 10.4) released on April 29, 2005. Still not the first, JAWS and zoomtext were around in the 90s
Hello Sam, I'm a longtime Windows user, but I wanted to stick up for Linux a little since you said it was not that accessible and difficult to use. There's a version of the OS made with the VIP community in Mind. It's called Accessible Coconut (no joke). It comes with features and software for us built in like a screen reader and magnifier. It even has the screen reader enabled when you want to test the OS using a USB drive or install it onto a computer from it. It also has videos showing how to navigate the OS preinstalled. I've installed it onto a small computer stick and it is pretty decent. It's somewhat like Windows in navigation. Anyway, thanks for all that you do for the community with posting these videos and I look forward to the next one.
I've heard of this but haven't tried it. I'm legally blind and I use Zoomtext now on my PC and the apple features on my IPad and IPhone. I wish Zoomtext would make a Linux version. I'm very privacy focused and if you want privacy it's a MUST to get away from Apple, Windows and Android. On a phone you can put Graphene OS but I don't think it's blind guy friendly. Don't other blind people care about privacy and security? They should.
I will say this, I have both operating systems (my laptop was to replace an old windows laptop I had which died half way through my masters course a couple years ago and I got a desktop PC for Christmas last year). Yes windows has these features too, but Apple does do it way better. I make Music Production content from time to time (this will become more frequent soon), and I noticed that there could be space for in person workshops in the future. However, Windows doesn't allow you to have mirrored screens that can be zoomed in separately, so that everyone looking at the main screen can see as if they were using the computer whilst still allowing me to do what I need to do zoomed in. This also allowed me to record my screen without the magnifier being recorded. I then found that you can record your screen on windows in a similar way, but only on Desktops as far as I know. So in a nutshell, windows is a bit more clunky in design, while on Mac, it just works seamlessly.
Being primarily a Windows user trying to learn Mac I would say the same thing but the other way around. I feel windows does certain things more intuitively than Apple does. There are certain things I like more about Apple, but my much more experienced history with Windows causes me to lean that way. That's why I always caution people about making blanket statements saying one operating system is better than the other. It's purely a matter of perspective and not fact.
Speaking to the perception of Macs as being high-priced, I use a very affordable Mac Mini ($750-ish) with a $350 LG 43" monitor, so I have a great setup at a very affordable cost. Yes, Mac laptops are more expensive than Windows, but I can't see a laptop screen anyway, so there's little value in a laptop regardless of OS. The Mac Mini is an amazing little machine at a great price.
I have an idea for a video series for you. How about a nvda tutorial series mainly going over the keyboard commands? In Windows, office suite, and a browser for those of us who are trying to learn it, but do it better through videos.
Hey Sam, greetings from Towson Maryland… This was a great video, you covered all the bases extremely well. There was a tiny bit of audio disturbance here and there as an FYI. 11:14
I agree with most of what you said. But I think microsoft did a big mistake by not making Narrator not as robust as Apple Voiceover. I come from India and most of the users are Windows users. Having a good default screen-reader would have made Windows accessible on the go, without installing anything. They should have done what Google did with Talkback. You could also touched on Samsung's interfeerance in Talkback which hasn't been beneficial for Samsung users.
Have you tried NVDA Non Visual Desktop Access for MS Windows? It's free and while it's not as good as JAWS on the PC it's better than VoiceOver on Mac OS in my opinion.
Yes, obviously I use it on a daily basis, but my point is that narrator should have been as good as NVDA. It also makes explaining accessibility to non disabled users more easier
@@sauravhegde8570 I 100% agree that the only real way to get a sighted person to understand screenreaders is to turn off the screen and demonstrate it.
Hi Sam I really like your video and I agree with what you’re saying about Accessibility. At the end of the day, there’s pros and cons to Accessibility features across the different operating systems. Personally, I like using Apple devices in general since I’m more familiar with Apple than android. I’m really excited for the new Accessibility features that are coming to iOS 18 and AirPods. Just a curiosity will you be making a video in the future showcasing the new Accessibility features that’s coming to iOS 18 and AirPods?
Maybe it’s because I’ve been on Apple for the longest, but I had an android for about four years and found that that was not as accessible as Apple again maybe that’s because Apple before that was my go to in family and in school. Chrome is definitely not accessible. I had a Samsung Chromebook that was not good. The rotor and Apple, I feel it is much easier to use than talk back, swipe up and down to get to each different thing.
I use Mac and Windows every single day at work, but for the last 20 years, I’ve been exclusively Mac. I started in high school when I did graphic design. As time went on, I got an iPod, then an iPhone, and these days I’ve got, almost everything in the ecosystem. There have been some things that I think windows did better, but when I think about ripping away from the Apple ecosystem at this point? It’s hard. For instance, I’ve got 20 years of photos and videos and music and what not I also have things like the convenience of Apple Pay that I would not want to give up, plus, like you said, there’s the ecosystem itself as far as everything playing well together. I find that the deeper you are in the ecosystem, the more difficult it is to leave.
Love the video like always, one thing that just stood out to me is that bye, taking out Linux and Chrome OS because of the difficulties of using them or learning them might have made this video not really about accessibility. Think that would have been better for a video that dealt with which operating system is easier to use. I have used chrome OS and once you get past the learning curve if you use it for what it is intended for it is very accessible.
Nailed it, accessability issues and individual situations are paramopunt. I love my iPhone for it's little dot the magnifies when I want it, but I love my android for the ability to zoom with a pinch, the 3 finger triple tap on my amazon tablet is a bit wierd but works, but desktop has a ways to go.... I want some input as to what the screen reader reads, I don't have all day! lol.... Is there a place we can go to tell software designers what would be useful for us? Selecting specific text for the screen reader? that little apple dot for the magnifier? I like to think that we live on the forefront of a new accessable world, but the able-d software people need to know what to create. Magnifiers are GREAT, dark mode is GREAT(for me) , Readers are GREAT, but who's going to teach the software people how to make it easier to use? (I admit, the bitterness of someone that's gone blind in 2019, after 50 years of sight)
I'm interested in becoming an accessibility trainer. There's a great need for one in the community that I live in which is semi rural. I lost my vision in 2015 and had to do the accessibility training I underwent with someone who would come to our area once a month, over the course of a year. Do you have any pointers or tips for what I can do as far as education and training so that I can help others in a situation like mine? Thank you so much for your objective point of view on all of these devices. I too use mainly Android devices but I have a Windows OS on my laptop and then I use a DaVinci 2 reader, with zoom text and jaws on my computer and then of course the Ruby XL and other handheld devices. I also have the esight glasses for classroom visual aide
Sounds like you have some nice accessories! I would suggest reaching out to your local non profit independent living services organization and/or your states vocational rehab program. I am currently exploring this myself and am so grateful for the opportunities that are available.
If you're looking to become officially certified, you're going to want to look into CATIS. It stands for certified assistive technology instruction specialist.
Amazing content, Sam. Always a fan. I totally agree that it really boils down to other factors as OS nowafays are kinda similar, some may perform better than the other.
Sam, this was an important video, thanks. I'm a long time Windows PC user starting with my job, but now also use both an iPhone and a iPad in addition to a Windows PC. I am comfortabe with both the Window and iOS systems, but there is always something new to learn.
Hi, great video. Just letting you know though that every minute or so there is some static which cuts out some words. I thought initially that this was intentional, but I now don’t think so.
iPhone was the game changer.. prior to switching to the iPhone the 3rd party accessilibty apps on my phones were horrible. That was my gateway to teh Mac OS. Mac's are more expensive but they last quite a long time and I have never had y Mac brick but my pc's used to do it all the time. But that was years ago and hopefully the world of PC's has changed and they are more reliable.
i love the windows magnifier and its screen reader. it has a couple of bugs (HDR) and shortcomings however it is the best accessibility tool i have ever used.
@@BG4life13 The windows magnifier has a different screen reader then narrator. It is a subset of narrator with extra functionality like it has tab to read etc...
hello, we should all be so thankful we have access to all this technology, i think a lot of us came about using these accessibility features in the toughest moments in our lifes when we had to deal with a set back of a disability and most likely what helped us out at that time is your favorite. i personally like the set up i have its very nice to know and understand multiple set ups, a windows pc with NVDA and a nice keyboard with two windows keys and an application key. an IPhone with voice over and a bluetooth keyboard. training yourself switching from one to another really learn a lot from. its strange and i did try multiple times but Android is just not doing it for me. greets mak :)
Anyone who is trying to make decisions, please talk to users of the various systems first in addition to watching this video. All the operating systems may give you the ability to change the cursor for example, however some of the systems have very limited options and it’s a challenge to even locate and select the options. The screen reader mode is even easier for me to use with the Safari browser than with the chrome browser. The chrome books that kids are given in the general Ed classrooms to use have horrible displays. The Mac is still the most versatile for me to use. I am able to accommodate my vision loss with it.
I agree with you that Apple wasn’t the first with accessibility for a DOS base machine or windows base machine for that matter. I had used a program and a sound card for a product called Arctic vision back as early as 1987. I think it was and it worked quite well with Dos bass programs And I believe I used it even on windows and word perfect and seal programs well up into elite 90s before up until Jaws came along so yeah accessibility goes back along ways
It's true. I live in both OS worlds. I work on Windows, and live on macOS. Windows has some things that are better from an out of the box usability standpoint. Mac has some things I love. I just wish I could get the same accessibility options on both OSes.
Thanks for this video Sam. It’s been a question of mine and I’ve had some people try to push me toward a Mac when I’ve been a PC user for my entire life. Yes, I’ve used Max but I just never really liked the operating system now I do like the iOS operating system for the iPhone and iPad, but that’s not a Mac, so using windows I’m comfortable doing the things I need to do but I certainly don’t want some other operating system for my phone and my tablet simply because I’ve grown up with the iOS system so I guess it’s kind of what is it that you use and what is it that you feel most comfortable with to me that was that’s important for my decision on what products I will use and continue to usethanks for another great video and hopefully you don’t lose any sponsorship money from Apple by debunking the myth
I grew up with and still use windows computers. I do have apple mobile devices because they were the first to become accessible and switching 14 years of stuff to android wouldn’t likely be easy. I adore my iPad though as it allows me to still be able to do art on my good vision days. I I have been curious about all the different android phones though. My current iPhone is 6 years old and will probably lose support next year. Still a good phone though.
Love my m2 MacBook Air. I do wish I could adjust the thickness of the hairthin text cursor like I can on my windows work computer. I’ve dove into the Mac accessibility settings and it doesn’t seem to be an option. I even watch your accessibility settings videos and it wasn’t mentioned.
I'd appreciate a deeper dive on what you mean that some systems do things better than others. The specifics are what we really need. I've found that the simplicity of the Mac system and IOS systems just make navigating way easier. Also, the zoom/invert functions are much more intuitive on the Mac and IOS and are easier to modify the hotkeys to activate them. Trying to find my way around the system preferences on my Windows install is an absolute nightmare.
Hi. Thanks for your work. I have RP and work as a public defender. Can you save me some time and suggest a solution for being in the courtroom that will put documents and people on a tablet type screen? I have an iPad if that can be augmented somehow. Thanks again.
I would be curious for a video on how to configure vision accessibility on Mac/Windows/Android, especially the best way to configure narrator (reader). For example, what is the way you use reader in your favourite browser (and which browser is the best for you)? This is what I am currently trying to setup for a low-vision person with a macular situation very similar to yours. I especially want to make it easier for them to turn on reader quickly for a piece of text on the browser that they cannot discern.
Great video! I Would also really love to know which watch is more accessible - Apple Watch (last generation) vs Samsung Galaxi Watch (last generation), if you use this Chinese screenreader on it, not TalkBack….
I have videos talking about both watches accessibility. The same information that I talk about with these computers, can be applied to smartwatches as well. They all have great accessibility, so you need to look at the extra features and ecosystem.
Every time my iPhone and iPad update I loose a lot of the changes that have been made so I can use them Very frustrating waking up to a white glowing thing where my iPhone use to be
Great explanation, Sam. Myth busted thnk you! The national agency here in Canafa is high on Apple. I fond Andrpid and Windows work adequately A.nd yes, Chrome has lousy adaptive visual assistance.
Not sure if you realized but there's a weird audio issue with random static cutting you off. It sounds like your mic was getting interference or something
There seems to be something up with the audio. It keep periodically having static (like the sound snow on a TV used to make way back when the channel didn't come in).
When it comes to Linux and accessibility, the best distros that I know of are Ubuntu and Debian. Linux Mint also is a good option as for anything else these days, no idea. As for when it comes to programs, with Linux and the accessibility department, it kind of depends on which one you use.
As a blind man I like my android and kindle. The latest model for kindle in my opinion is great for blind people. The static thing is annoying as HELL!
Thank you Sam for being honest here. There is no real platform that rises above any other these days. Sure, you may be more or less familiar/fond with one over another, but that doesn't mean the platform itself is actually better or worse than any of the others. And further more, I think it's best to remain flexible when it comes to computing platforms.
you should do an updated tutorial on talkback on android with a galaxy or pixel, i've been interested in switching back to android but when I tried it a few years ago it was a headache to do even basic stuff that I can accomplish a million times faster on iOS with voiceover.. would be appreciated also JAWS on windows has to be licenced to windows which costs an arm and a leg to get, and windows narrator is just horrible.. VO on mac is already built into the OS which makes it an automatic plus.. but JAWS is great if you can get it. i'm just curious if Samsung has improved with Talk back I hear that they are slow to update the screen readers and are overall just horrible compaired to the Pixel. VO has always been reliable and smooth compaired to it's other counterparts I still think it's the best option for folks that have no vision at all. talkback probly works best with Pixel because Google can smooth it out with their OS instead of dealing with Samsungs stubbornness.
I don't know what you're saying, but i came to the States in 1991 and my first computer was the Apple IiE and it had screen reader,, and that computer was already old. So when you said some company came out with screen reader for the first time in 1994 is not quite true.
The lack of accessibility on linux is just sad, as an aspiring software developer. That just makes me sad (yes i want to be a develope to at least try to lessen the horrible accessibility on Linux)
I don't have any android hardware except for a s20 ultra which I just started to learn how to use as a blind user. I have mac and windows. My personal opinion is that if it's for general purpose computing (email, video streaming, very very light text editing)... both mac and windows will get the job done. As a developer though, as much as I would want to have the linux backend with a mac macos is at a critical state in terms of accessibility whenever we try to do anything somehow serious *in my experience* so windows is the way to go, as well as for studying. Voiceover has too much problems for me. I and I am musician sometimes too... which makes it harder to write what I wrote.
It’s really nice for you to help people the spy it’s true the Windows versus Mac, who was first with the accessibility, which was Windows, of course, with the narrator. I totally disagree when you advise if you don’t have enough money to buy a Mac buy a Windows. Because today is really similar impresses those two. And something the Max have about windows because of course it’s not about the windows, but PCs on general. It’s that you can star and Wipe out the whole operating system and do everything from scratch without any help because they have accessibility from star. And not only that. But you really have to put into consideration there stability of the system. Which for somebody which is gig or Taxi Sabi it’s not a problem because we are kind of adventurous. But even people like us when we need to get the job done for real without any distractions Because a DLL problem or some other things Apple, it’s the winner. And even the secondhand machine you can find it today around 300 bucks so again this is Apple winning again.
I change android to Apple. iPhone is much much better for me specially because in any problems with the phone, I can call to customer service and get help right away from from professional! Anytime 224 hours and seven days this is absolutely great. That’s why I chose iPhone!
Here are some things you can consider. Are you looking for employment? The vast majority of employers use Windows PCs with MS office. What skills and equipment do you already have and do you already have skills with them. What tasks do you want to perform, is it just emails and webpages or do you want to create spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations. That's some explanation why it is different for everyone.
Windows all the way. When it comes to productivity Apple doesn't hold a candle to windows. Now if you are visually impaired may be it is different but for a totally blind person it's got to be windows. I do love my I-phone though and yes I can write with using a blue tooth keyboard but it's a whole new way of learning. As for costs, well you can buy a good windows computer for $800 for so plus say 900 for a screen reader like jaws, still cheaper then a mac book pro. Finally Sam, get rid of the static.
I just watched this video now, and I was very interested in different peoples perspectives, so it's fascinating reading through all the comments. I'm really glad that Windows works well for you. But I think saying that it's the best for totally blind people is a bit presumptuous because every individual user, totally blind or not, uses their technology very differently and with different levels of comfort and experience. I'm completely blind, and while I can and do use Windows for work when I need to, my choice is always macOS. It's the operating system that I personally resonate with best and it's what I prefer to use as much as possible. I have friends who are blind, some who are totally blind, and some love mac while others absolutely love Windows. I'm right at home as a totally blind person on iOs or a mac using a touchscreen, and in fact, the braille onscreen feature is one that I use 99% of the time when typing on an iOS device. Having to use a touchscreen most of the time also gives me a better sense of where things are located in relationship to each other, not to mention since I teach sighted students how to use their Apple products, I need to know how everything is laid out and what the icons look like. I did start out using windows and even taught it at one point. I was a fulltime Windows user until 2012. So as Sam says in the video, it really is a very individual choice based on so many different factors, and what those factors are will depend on each person. Again, I'm really glad that you have what works for you. And thanks for sharing the price of what a Windows computer can cost these days; I haven't personally paid for a Windows machine in ages. Your comment now triggers me to go and just look at the different options to satisfy my curiosity. Hmmm. Might be a fun thing to do with one of my Windows-oriented pals that I'll be seeing soon
I think people who think Apple did accessability first, are those that only think about the Iphone but not the Mac. And I don't get those who are such fan of Apple, when I keep hearing that they've gone down a bit when it comes to accessability on their computers compare to their other devices.
For me, Linux is the unequivocal leader because I'm able to customize the system to my knees. None of the other contenders come anywhere close. Well, BSD might but I haven't tried it.
Are looking at employment though? Almost all organisations/businesses use MS Windows PCs with MS Office. It's a question I always ask clients. I mean no disrespect to you with this question.
Here's my response... for employment, knowing how to use and navigate Windows with it's accessibility options is necessary for most jobs (not all). However, one weird aspect of the blind community and those that support it seems to be this super-extreme focus on the only value our lives have are what we can achieve via work/employment. In other words, if what we can use and what others can teach us isn't suitable for earning money and helping companies/society/economy it doesn't matter if it enriches OUR lives. That mentality is kind of sick and twisted. I understand it's well-meaning, but it's still a huge flaw in our world view. So Linux. Se my other comment. At least with KDE and zoom, it for example has better text and graphic smoothing than Windows magnifier, making reading web pages easier (and editing google docs and MS 365 Word docs easier too). It also lets me zoom into text when I'm playing steam games full-screen (like baldue's gate 3) which Windows magnifier doesn't. Are these quality of life improvements pointless because they aren't useful in the workplace?
I'd also like to add, if $$$ and making the blind people "productive members of society and useful tools of companies" is really important... that Linux admin jobs are actually REALLY high earning salaries... I'd know (having done that in the past).
I've never used a Mac or Chromebook, so I can't comment on them. But, I've been using Linux Mint for about ten years now, and I find it easy to install and use, and I think Mint's magnifier is just as good as the one in Windows. In fact, until Windows 10, Linux had a much better magnifier. I don't use screenreader on either OS, so I can't comment on that feature. And, yes, almost everything is customizable in Linux, but don't let that scare you because the defaullt settings are mostly fine.
Chrome, os or chrome os flex is a terrible linux based distro, use regular linux distros, it's worth it I'm done with Windows, Windows 7 was a good OS, but after that the experience with Windows from 8 tot 11 they ruined
I have found that Zoom is not used by many clients on either OS Android/iOS. You are working on such a small screen that it's normally more effective to switch to the screen reader option even if you use, say ZoomText on your PC with 24" plus monitor.
I use an android (z fold 4) which basically turns into a tablet with enlarged text and a stylus with the magnifier lens app. Even that isn't 100% ideal, but I find it's better for my needs than the 3-finger zoom on iOS (which I stopped using after the 6+) and full-screen zoom on Android (which I stopped using after the Galaxy s21 Ultra Hyper Super Duper 5G Thing).
@@rdkrusselwhile I don't use full-screen magnification on my phone anymore, I used to, and I still use a combination of enlarged text an spot magnification. What I don't use is screen reading on my phones. I might have to someday... but I'm going to put that day off as long as humanly possibly.
