Bethel Redding & Modern Apostles: A Biblical Analysis 

As Charles Spurgeon said “ Discernment is not discerning what is right and wrong it’s discerning what is right and almost right”

As as a former NAR worship leader, this is the best and most thorough I've heard. I believe this should go to every church in America. Thank you for mentioning the 'burnout' factor and fallout that happens when it becomes unsustainable. Also, exposing the 'prayer-less-ness' in all this circus,(by continuous declarations) is so necessary.

Music is a portable theology that takes root in our minds. This can be a wonderful tool of the Holy Spirit, or an insidious weapon of the enemy.

Sovereign Grace, Norton Hall Band, The Gettys, Matt Papa & Matt Boswell, Emu Music, City Alight, Sounds Like Reign, The Corner Room, and so many other wonderful, theologically rich and biblically sound worship artists are out there. We don’t need to continue supporting mega-worship collectives with their questionable theology, me-centered lyrics, and seeker-driven churches leading people to a false gospel. We need more discernment in this area and it needs to start with pastors and worship leaders waking up and realizing what these churches really believe and promote. When we play their music in our otherwise doctrinally solid churches on Sunday, we endorse the source, support them financially through CCLI fees, and let them in like a Trojan horse. Music teaches theology too. There are too many other wonderful options out there to continue justifying this.

This is really good content and is so on point with what I struggled to define during the last couple of years until just recently. My wife, kids and myself were in a "non-denominational" church for many years. We all got saved through this church and grew up spiritually in it. This church was launched early on from Baptist roots. Over the years, it progressed from those roots into Pentecostal and then, within the last few years started leaning heavily into these "NAR" sort of teachings. Meanwhile, I was deep into serving along with my wife, even as an elder the last couple of years. A little over two years ago, alarm bells started going off in my spirit. I searched the scriptures deeply and found that a lot of the things I was hearing from the pulpit were inconsistent with the Bible. I didn't know how to deal with this for the longest time. When I finally got the courage to try to talk to our Pastor, my concerns were essentially dismissed and there was no real opportunity for dialogue. I felt like the only way was to either align with their thinking or leave. There was no path for open discussion. After deciding that it was best we leave that church, we were prevented from even attending the home group that we were so deeply a part of. This whole movement and theology sickens me. It is, as you say, heavy handed and abusive. As hard as it may seem, if you are in a church like this you should get away. If you are in confusion, you will be shocked at the clarity that will come from getting out from this kind of bondage. I love Jesus. He is all I need. God bless you for reading this to the end.

As a former Mormon I found myself in churches that were beginning to adopt this theology and was thinking... I just left this lie and here it is again in bright new shiny packaging 😟

As a person who has tried to have this conversation about the music at more than one church, I'm crying tears of thankfulness. We need more people with platforms saying no to this music. Thankfully my current church made this decision a couple years ago without us doing more than praying (others did the coversation) but it's been so hard to feel so lonely in caring about this. I'm so grateful for Holly and Doug and a number of others calling out NAR and the churches that teach their false gospel.

Music is the universal language and can be a powerful tool that folks can use to draw others...like the Pied Piper. I grew up WOF, spent 20 years in the New Age & later got involved with Bethel through a satellite ministry, before the Lord pulled me out of the darkness. The problem with using Bethel music has to do with their theology which is blended into their music & mostly flies under the radar. If you aren't familiar with how Bethel redefines common Christian terms, you probably won't see much of a problem with their music. If you are familiar with Bethel/WOF (now known as NAR) theology you will hear the message of their music loud and clear, sung by oceans of people who have no clue what they are saying or doing. Thank you for being willing to discuss this issue. Many churches find folks that take issue with Bethel music divisive. However, those same churches that are labeling folks as divisive have little understanding of WOF/NAR theology as a whole, therefore they can't fully understand the problems in the music. This problem makes it very difficult to find a church that does not play Bethel, Hillsong, etc.

Alisa, I was a worship leader in a large church being trained to take over the role of music director. I sang mostly Bethel and Hillsong, elevation etc. God awoken me to this and I tried to work out how to compromise and stay in that church. The conviction from God to remove myself from these churches completely was so strong. I knew as much as I tried to reason and compromise to sing "just" the songs from bethel that were doctrinally sound, it was not ok. The fact of the matter is if you are influencing babes in christ and in a position of authority like a worship leader is, you are responsible for where you lead the sheep. And leading anything to bethel, hillsong, etc etc through playing their music FULL STOP, its an abomination in the LORDS eyes. There will come a time where you will have to make your choice and walk away from NAR I believe its the great falling away.

Doug really caught my attention when he talked about NAR beliefs inducing anxiety. I was instantly reminded of my experience with YWAM. I just couldn't understand why God wasn't talking to me like everyone else claimed. I would get up at night, pace around, flip my Bible open randomly and read whatever verse my finger happened to land on, desperate for a personal message from God. Everything was so mystical. Many leaders, after making decisions, would claim that God told them to do it, freeing themselves from any personal responsibility for their own decisions. To question the decision would either be to question God, or to call them a liar by saying that God never spoke to them, so nobody questioned. I have seen this abused many times. I'm so glad that God rescued me from that movement, especially before I was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago. NAR/WOF have nothing helpful to say to the sick, only that sickness can never be the will of God and that you just need to believe it and have more faith. I didn't know what the outcome of my battle with cancer would be, but I knew that whatever happens to me in this life, God has an infinitely better place waiting for me. I am thankful that the Lord allowed me to survive that difficult trial in my life and it was a very humbling experience that caused me to learn many new things about God's character that I had never understood previously. I didn't know whether I was going to make it or not, but strangely, more so probably, than at any other stage in my life, I felt a peace that can only come from the Lord. I didn't know what was going to happen to me, but I was okay with that because it wasn't up to me. I knew that I was in the best possible place; in the arms of God. I no longer had any anxiety. I had learned that God is sovereign and He uses situations like this to grow our faith.

I’m late to this conversation, but as a long time resident of Redding, there are many who leave true Bible teaching churches to go to Bethel because of the music. The music does suck people into the Bethel doctrine.

I've been to a church exactly like this. My son's went there and didn't ever invite me to mother's day dinner and the "apostle" took over my mothers car payment loan and he was late. He disrespected me and my mother so much and taught that to my son, I believe. My son will do anything they ask. They have turned him against me. It's been terrible and I could go on and on about that cult. I pray for me and my oldest son's relationship to be restored to the way it once was and more importantly his relationship with God. I miss and love him and his children, my grandchildren I love and miss them so much. My youngest son went there too and that's another story but I'm thankful for our relationship and my little grandson from him. Thank you for this video. God bless and keep you all.❤️🙏

This is the exact quote from Bill Johnson: “Music bypasses all of the intellectual barriers, and when the anointing of God is on a song, people will begin to believe things they wouldn’t believe through teaching.” 😬

Refreshing to hear this. The backlash against these false prophets are underway.

Music is the most powerful thing in the world, and it permeates our mind and spirit without us realizing it. I have been a Christian for more than 40 years now, and yet if I hear music from my BC days, I can remember the lyrics perfectly. These are songs that I sang from birth through age 20, and I am about to turn 70. It is the easiest way to memorize as well. Put true Scripture to music, and sing it regularly, and you will have so much Scripture hidden in your heart. ❤

My son’s widow is wrapped up in the Bethel cult and is influencing my 11 year old granddaughter. Pray she will be protected from it.

I came out of these churches after being Roman Catholic. God gripped my heart, and I KNOW that I accepted the death, burial and resurrection of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in fourth grade. I'm now 56 and didn't get out of these outfits until the plague happened in 2020. I was one of those people that prayed for Olive. Why? Because James says that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much; however, at the same time, I told everybody that it's God's prerogative if He wants to do this. I think it's amazing that God protects us wayward little sheep with the desire so intense to learn about Him that we will go from venue to venue until we finally understand that it's all revealed right in front of us in HIS WORD. This is hard to listen to because I GET what these people are falling for. The Charles Spurgeon quote is 💯 . I'm convinced that God had a legion of angels protecting me so that every time I learned something ridiculous, I didn't adopt it but kept seeking. If you don't think that God goes after the one sheep, I can probably declare that you are sorely mistaken. 😪😪😪😪 I love my Daddy.

My mother, born in 1920 would call this “name it and claim it.” This kind of thinking has been around a long time. Just dressed up differently from one era to the next.

I was involved in this movement for two years. It wasn't fun. I am thankful for this new book in helping people to sound the alarm about the NAR. Don't let experience be your guide. Only the Word of God is infallible.

As a new Worship leader of our teeny Church this issue has been on my shoulders since I started so this video couldn’t have come at a better time… thanks for posting it… keep up the great Kingdom work! Shalom from Florida 🕊🪔🕊

Prayer declarations are simply refashioned law of attraction for the Christian church. It really is a New Age teaching and has no place in a Christian's prayer life.

I LOVE your discernment!! I am teaching a women's class this summer at my church about TRUTH, why it is important and why we need to be discerning and how to be discerning. I came out of Mormonism, so TRUTH is so important to me.

Thank you for this!! Very timely as I just moved close by to Bethel and meeting many who attend there. Have been praying for discernment in my interactions with these lovely families.

As a worship leader for many years, to sing or not to sing these songs has been a question I have asked myself and others in the church for some time now. It’s a tough one, especially when some of the songs do not have anything doctrinally unsound. I think keeping away from all appearance of evil is wise.

The more "they explain" the more alarm bells are going off. Thank you Alisa, thank you LORD. Stay in prayer and in the LORD all.

Why? There are so, so many beautiful old hymns that have been packed away that should be sung.

Yes TPT is still on the YouVersion Bible app......still. This whole topic is important to talk about!!!! I trained in Bethel Sozo healing ministry and my eyes were opened wide in the training. Being a worship leader for 4 decades, it is very sneaky and infiltrates more than many realize. My degree is in Biblical Studies and this teaching is what i would refer to as Emotionalism. I have learned so much because of this eye opening and now I have a RU-vid channel combating misuse of Scripture. Keep talking about this stuff, Alisa.

The music is like candy leading hearts to unsound theology…as well as to new age practices. Been heartbreaking to witness firsthand. Thankful for the work you 3 are doing! Praying loads!

I wish I could like this a hundred times. The NAR is so dangerous BECAUSE it’s so sneaky. I have a wounded past with this movement that I didn’t even know about until I stepped away.

I'm so glad this topic was brought up. When I mention this to some of my family members, they just tell me I'm being legalistic.

I had the unhappy experience several years back of attending a local, unaffiliated church that was just then starting to trend toward the NAR. I spoke privately with the pastor and one associate pastor about my concerns over Hillsong and Bethel songs finding their way into the worship sets and was essentially blown off. The pastor more or less said he wasn't interested in the doctrinal positions of the writers of the songs we sang. Shortly thereafter, one of the other associate pastors started dropping Bethel's name into his sermons and preaching obvious NAR doctrine. The Sunday on which he told the congregation that they needed to be more open to the miraculous, including raising the dead, as a normative experience, I saw which way the wind was blowing and left.

Thank you so much for this episode, Alisa. I am a pastor, and I can hardly stomach CCM music any more. We are so, so careful what music we sing in our worship services, to the point that a large majority of our songs are driven by older hymns (perhaps with more contemporary tunes, like Indelible Grace). I would love to see you tackle the whole Christian music scene, because the problem is wider than just the NAR movement. So much of music today is driven by the church "worship" band model. And so many songs are me-focused rather than God-focused. ("I praise you God because you accept me the way I am!") It's a message that leads people down the wide path that leads to destruction! I think you are uniquely qualified to speak to this issue because of your background. I believe that churches and Christians need to learn discernment, because the more these songs are elevated to "viral" status, the more they will dominate Christian thinking and beliefs.

I thank God for all of you in bringing the truth of this movement to light. In 2014 I was headed to Bethel as I was involved with many believers who followed the teachings of Bill Johnson. But, by the grace of God that part of my journey was divinely stopped by the hand of God. Today, I have been brought out of the NAR, WOF, Name and claim it teachings and have been growing deeper in my knowledge of the word of God. What is so disheartening is that many are turning from the truth seeking signs, wonders and miracles. I have yet to find a church home here in my small community that is truly biblically based. Many blessings to you all!

I can’t thank you enough for this podcast! It was so eye-opening! I am purchasing the book as we speak and am already sharing this podcast with others. Thank you!

So appreciative of this teaching! I’ve been involved in worship as a leader and a support musician for 25 years. I have had some difficulty with this movement but couldn’t put my finger on why. Now I understand more clearly!

Glad to see Alisha going on record - thanks for posting this.

Thanks for covering the passion [translation]. So many church folks have been deceived by this heretical work. Keep up the great work.

I really appreciate this conversation! Thank you for helping to expose their beliefs. Even among the most solid theological Christians, so many try to justify listening to Bethel and singing their songs in church. It’s is such an important topic to understand!

I agree with much of what you've said. However, as long as the lyrics of the song appear to me to align with Scripture, I feel free singing it. I don't care who was involved in producing the song. I'm singing it as a way to glorify God. At least that's my intent. I don't want the anxiety that comes with worrying about the personal theology of every songwriter. I'll just humbly pray that the Lord will accept my worship.

I love how these two intelligent people discuss the topic so calmly and always with the Bible in view. Thank you!

Wow! This was such a great video in its layout and discussion. I began investigating NAR, Bethel music and like churches (ie Hillsong, Elevation, Maverick City, ect.) when on the drive home from church my 13 year-old asked me about the theology of a song we sang that morning. I knew it was written by Bethel (i.e. Brian Johnson) and that I didn’t agree with them on several theological issues but hadn’t looked into them. Within 9 months of reading, watching videos of sermon clips and analyzing their music I discovered what you laid out in a very concise 1 1/2 hour presentation. Well done, I am recommending this video to quickly get an understanding of the issues with NAR and Bethel.

Alisa I’m so excited to see how much your channel has grown. I remember working a few of your concerts and y’all where so nice to everyone. God bless

Thank you Holly, Doug and Alisa!! I've got your books and find them beyond helpful in my relationship with God!! Loved the podcast and hope to see the three of you together more often.

Thankyou Alisa , Holly and Doug for this really helpful and insightful conversation. As a songwriter who was in the NAR environment for over a decade , I have realised how much my song writing during that time was influenced by the theology that was subtly infiltrating my thinking and understanding about what I believed to be true. I realise now that if I am going to write songs that express any aspect of theology or philosophy , I need to be sure that my written expressions are faithful to sound biblical understanding. Music is such a wonderful gift from God and most of us are wired to respond emotionally to it and that makes it a powerful medium through which to influence people emotionally and help them disengage their minds from the actual words they’re singing. Maybe that’s why I compose more instrumental music than I used to. ! Some thoughts are just to challenging to articulate. Praying for you guys in your ongoing ministries to us for which I am truly grateful. 🙏

Very very very very very very very good!! Easy and good to follow information. It shows the many many dangers and negative influences NAR has. Thank you thank you!!

I have been so blessed by this. Thank you Alissa fir helping the body of Christ

Whoa thank you for this! It made me take a deeper look at what I’m actually saying while singing these worship songs; I no longer want to support something that leads so many souls astray! Thank you for shining a light and opening my eyes 🫶🏻

What a wonderful episode. So full of thought-provoking simple wisdom, discernment we can receive through The Holy Spirit, by staying true to God's Word and not looking for the big neurochemical blast of being in a wooshy worship service. While I was listening I started imagining different lyrics to "Oceans" in which "may Your Will be done" and "we are so easily fooled" played heavily... Thank you Alisa, and your two guests, for such practical and valuable thoughts and evidence that we need to be Bereans in our navigation through these times. "Prophets" in my humble opinion, are often Predators, whether or not they know it themselves, and I have friends who are so dramatic about their faith and spiritual life that now I wonder if they're into NAR teachings without even knowing it... I'll continue to love them and pray for them, and for all who are trapped in this melodramatic presentation of a twisted gospel... It will be a rough road for them to return from these teachings, may it be God's Will that they do, because HE will keep them and heal their psychological wounds from their experiences! We love and worship The Great Physician, and He can heal wounded hearts better than ANYONE! PRAISE BE TO GOD for He is Mighty and ALL we need.

This really brought together everything that I've been seeing for a while at our church. We're stepping up our search for a new church.

Alisa... Thank you SO much for this episode! The more I learn, the more I realize how subtly this movement HAS influenced so many people I know. I too must raise my hand and say that for a number of years I simply nodded my head to what was being preached, or sung, or prayed and I was not like a Berean, studying the scriptures to discern if these things were truth. God in His amazing grace has pulled me from many false ideas that were espoused through these modes. Thank you to Holly and Doug for your research, your charitable exposure and for the book... I ordered it! I truly want to share this episode with many friends... praying to have wisdom if and when to do so. & for receptive hearts.

Thank you for sharing this. I’ve been praying for a friend who does not understand about the issues with the music. I can’t even share this video with her because her head is firmly planted in the sand.

This was so helpful and timely as my husband and I have had alarms going off during discussions with close family of ours and this puts words to things they are gravitating towards. It has started to create some strain but We will pray for them and are determined to stay true to our convictions but maintain loving relationship and not let enemy cause divide.

Thank you. Being an older individual I have been a part of the "word of faith" movement and gravitated toward the NAR for a portion of my walk with the Lord. As I have grown and followed on to know the Lord He has been causing me to question much around these movements associated with the Christian church; even going so far as how I have prayed over the years. Lately the Lord has caused me to be cautious around the "decree" and "declare" forms of prayer. This is not a form of prayer I have actually practiced myself; but have been associated with many who have and do. The church my husband and I have returned to have echoed the same sentiments surrounding Bethel and Hillsong music. This has really helped me. Again, thank you much! God Bless! Will be getting the book.

Great video. And I love that you didn’t lump all charismatics in with the NAR movement. I’m not trying to discredit everyone in the charismatic church. It makes it easier to share videos like these and put this info out there with out there being a place to “brush it off” just because someone may or may not believe in the sign gifts for today.

This is so important. We are dealing with this on an individual basis and with worship. Thank you all so much!!!

This was fascinating and so helpful - thank you! I especially found the discussion about declaration “prayer” interesting, as I used to be part of a church that taught this.

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. II Timothy 4:2‭-‬4 NKJV

The part about having to learn how to pray is so true. My husband and I both noticed they we needed to learn how to pray after coming out of a church similar to these churches.

Very insightful, thank you everyone. I would love a part 2.

SO many people try to pray in this decreeing manner which makes me cringe as a humble requesting posture is what we have patterned in Scripture. Let's try to correct this, CHURCH! God help us!

Thank you Alisa for exposing the TRUTH! 🙏🏾 God bless you & your ministry

I read the book discussed here (Counterfeit Kingdom) and it gave me so much clarity and put all the pieces together of what was taking over our church. I tell everyone I can to read it! Best thing we ever did was read through the whole Bible on our own (with the Bible Recap reading plan). Best way to spot counterfeit is to know scripture for yourself! Thanks so much to these authors for all the research and work that went into exposing this false teaching.

Thank you so much for making this video! My family and I left an NAR-influenced church in 2020 and I’m still working to detangle some of the false teachings in my brain. This was very helpful!

Grateful for this discussion. I'll share it with my NAR friends!

Thank you for this! I have been trying to find resources that speak to the "new prophets" in particular. It is like all of a sudden God is "speaking" to these random people on RU-vid about so many things. Makes no sense and yet they have thousands of views! I will look up the authors so I can learn more because not many people are addressing this issue.

The likes of Bethel teach another "gospel." I've been sounding the alarm on this topic for over a year now as well. Thank you for addressing this.

Thanks for covering this topic Alisa. It's so so so important!

Thank you for this vitally important warning, presented with your usual clarity and devotion to following correct philosophical principles. I'll be ordering both your book and Counterfeit Kingdom to give to my church leaders and worship leaders. I'm also praying for God's will to prevail!

Thank you for this important interview.

This was excellent. Thank you.

Thank you for bringing to the light more clearly things we may have questioned as being unbiblical, but not studied and been bold enough to define!

Thank you for this insightful podcast. You really cleared a few things up for me.

I grew up in a traditional Pentecostal church and then as a teen was introduced to my current church, which began leaning heavily on NAR teaching. I'm now in my 30s and am really examining some of what I've been taught. I want to thank you Alisha and your guests for revealing your concerns in a very humble and loving way. Too often when I hear Christians confront other Christians with different beliefs, they do so in a manner that's arrogant, condemning and or just plain rude. A very well done podcast.

The section from 32:00 to 35:52 is SO GOOD. I mean, it's ALL good, but that part I had to pause and rewatch, then show my son. We often pray for healing and are disappointed when healing doesn't come, but it's important to understand that sometimes it's better to not be healed, at least in that moment.

All kidding aside Alisa, I want to thank you for all the truly informative interviews you've sponsored pertaining to the Progressive Church and related topics. I've benefited so greatly. Just received your new book ("Live Your Truth ...") and can't wait to dive in. God bless you.

Really great podcast. I'm not a Bethel attendee or do I know much about their school of miracles, but I want to focus on an important issue. Two pastors from Bethel were mentioned repeatedly in this podcast by both Doug & Holly. Before writing their book, or even before creating the podcast, did either of the three of you call or sit with Bill Johnson or Kris Vallotton to speak to them about their personal perspectives? Or did all the perspectives come from the interpretation each of you made about what you may have read? In studying scripture, which you mention in this podcast as well, context (full context) is necessary to understand and interpret the truth being presented. I believe the best way to that full, honest context is to speak directly to those who originated the thought. I realize that we don't have the writers of the Bible that we can easily access to ask for context, but the Holy Spirit leads us into the truth of the Scriptures that He authored. But, Bill and Kris are accessible. Perhaps the second podcast that youo mentioned twice, should include either of those 2 men (or both). I'd really like to hear their perspectives on the matter.

Two of my favorite podcasts are Alisa Childers and Bethel sermon of the week. It grieves me to see division growing in the body of Christ over misunderstandings and misinterpretation. The verse that comes to mind is Proverbs 18:17: "The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him." If this all you've heard about Bethel, this is what you'll believe, but you can't really know a person or organization until you've been with them a while. I hope Alisa and her listeners get to know Bethel for themselves.

Love these guys and the content is badly needed. Ty

Thanks guys. 🙂 I've ordered Holly Pivets book. I've prayed for the last 15 years to know the truth. His been correcting my steps ever since.

Praise the Lord! I have been praying about the music for over two years since the Lord opened my eyes. Now, praying true Christian Churches create your own music. If you are gifted write it and sing it. That is my prayers.

About 2 years back, our church decided that we would intentionally avoid all Bethel music in our very modern worship service. We exercise caution with music from some other sources. It’s not our intention to be legalistic. But rather, to the very best of our ability to use songs that reinforce right theology. You are so right - music is catechism. Just as we would avoid music written by a known Mormon, or known Muslim, or known worshipper of Ra, even if a particular song or psalm generically offers praise to God, we want to use songs that teach right theology, written by people who stand on the Word of God as our first and primary source of what is right to teach.

Great interview! Thank you so much.

Super great and informative podcast, I listened to your podcast for the first time yesterday and now, I'll continue listening and sharing 🤗thank God for your teaching 🙏God Bless you all 💞

Bethel fit the criteria, long established, of a cult. People long for a place to belong. Same intent, different style. Always led by one person who have a inner circle who follow the leader without question. This movement has grown slowly, no one is having to give up their lifestyle, or believe in extraterrestrial beings. Cult leaders are usually very charismatic. Not particularly exceptional people, just have a great gift of persuading people to believe and follow them. Thank you for being so willing to speak out on this subject.

This conversation is so timely for me. I have been attending a church in Snohomish WA called PURSUIT NW (watch RU-vids) for a couple of years now and I’ve been so concerned with the direction the church is going. The church has grown from maybe 500 to now over 2500 in two years. I for one am totally exhausted. They have had Bill Johnson come. The church has rented the Angel of the winds arena in Everett Wa for Easter. Guest speaker will be Benny Hinn for an Easter evening healing Service. I’m having a difficult time because my wife and daughter are so sold on it. ✝️

Informative and helpful episode. My wife and I were worship leaders in a Kids Church program back when our children were young. The songs then focused on Jesus, and we would also introduce the kids to some of the hymns that were a part of our experiences as kids. We found that the kids mostly just needed to ask questions, so we would cut worship time to allow for time for them to ask questions, but that was not something that was necessarily approved by the leaders at that time. That was back in the 1990's. We had always felt uncomfortable with the separation of Kids and their parents into more "focused" worship and service experiences. At some point that uncomfortableness caused us to leave the church after holding various positions in the church, such as deacon, food ministry and other responsibilities of leadership within the church. Since then we have followed our kids to various churches where they felt "ministered", but invariably the worship or certain doctrines that are unscriptural but advocated by churches that appear to have the need to raise money and influence in their communities become evident. Thanks for putting a long conversation in our heads into a podcast! We struggled through the various doctrinal issues that were alluded to in the podcast, recognizing that God's word is true, but without a Berean spirit with other believers it is tempting to just go along to get along, especially when friends that are not interested in evaluating the truth of a doctrine, but seem to follow a charismatic leader without question surround us. May God continue to bless you all and lead you in paths by "quiet waters" and give rest in the midst of following our Creator and Lord Jesus Christ.

Excellent interview. Thank you so much for having them on.

I just finished the Counterfeit Kingdom book recently. Its very good, definitely recommended 👍

Thank you so much for drawing attention to these concerning teachings and the problematic Passion Translation.

Hi Alisa, enjoying every part of this discussion, I'm in agreement all the views expressed. Blessed by your content. God bless.

This was insightful. Thank you!

The passion translation sounds alot like how Joseph Smith wrote the book of Mormon.

My first encounter with "NAR" was in 1994-1995, with the advent of the Toronto Blessing. I was carefully charismatic, even felt God might have revealed some things to me about church once, through a dream, when I was 13...please don't hate on me, I was reading the Bible on my own, not in a charismatic church, didn't have any reason to believe God might not answer a question I'd asked Him through a dream, and, maybe you can call it self-fulfilling, but it actually held me in good stead when I encountered my first cult at age 16, then "the new move of the Spirit," as they called it, around age 35. It was an evolution...I watched this church embrace this stuff over time, but even then, what they meant when they said "the prophet's mantle is heavy upon you," and what I would have meant were very different things. Nonetheless, even with my alleged mantle, when I questioned, I couldn't get a straight answer, and certainly my saying, "This just doesn't seem Biblical" fell on deaf ears. They really got rolling after we left, and I did attend one service at a friend's invite--I respected her and she insisted the fruit was sooo evident, it had to be "God". Halfway through that service, shortly after their guest speaker started preaching, I started to feel sick to my stomach, and though I'm not well versed in...demonology (?) I had a very strong sense they were calling on spirits, but they weren't "holy". Much angst and division happened after that, lost friends, merely because I was not going along, okay maybe trying to call it out, a little. Guess I was lucky to see it early, but it has made navigating churches difficult, as 25 years later, I could see it creeping in even at non-charismatic churches. Also, Mormonism anyone?

Thank you all for bringing this to light! For me it confirms more solidly why I stopped listening to Bethel, Hillsong and Elevation about 2 yrs ago...before now I would have pointed to the leaders/teaching ...but now I understand it's all related to NAR deception coming out in the lyrics. We are told to call out false prophets/teaching. THANK YOU! Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Cracking open the hidden dangers and repercussions of the apostolic movement, with insight and gentleness. Having given 'spiritual warfare' prayer about 8 years ago, and declaration prayer 4 years ago, like was said here, I was at a lost as to how to pray, having prayed that way for 40 years! A life time false belief systems, truly leaves one in confusion, and worse, when the realization comes that it was false. Thank you Alisa, Holly and Doug for your tireless efforts to proclaim the truth of Scripture diligently explaining where paths have deviated in so many seductive and deceiving ways. God bless. P.S. I'm still grappling with how to pray.

As someone who is now Anglican and moved there from the charismatic world, I must say that I appreciate the different streams of the Faith. As far as brush stroking all "NAR" leaders with the same brush, I must say that since a teen, sharing the gospel with Che Ahn at a juvenile detention center 45 years ago, I have seen the godly, Bible centered ministry of Mr. Ahn develop and grow with sincerity, truth, dedication, and integrity. With a PhD from Fuller Seminary, he is a well educated, devoted, and exemplary leader, husband, v and father for the glory of God. Please be careful of lumping together various leaders, who share some similar theological ideas, based on the faults of a few among many thousands. Also, concerning the "dominion" of areas influence: my understanding is that many leaders believe the church abdicated involvement in education, government, entertainment, etc, and now we are reaping that neglect. To see a call to make real difference for the gospel in the areas, is worth support, rather than denigration. Thank you for your time!

This is so fascinating. My dad had prophetic schools growing up, and most of these NAR ministers spent much time in my home. ( I only know because I Googled what NAR is and was like, oh, those are all my dad's friends that I grew up with. lol) We spent time with their families, and they were an intricate part of my life. It always makes me want to defend it because I knew them. I saw how much time they spent in the Word and their heart for the people. Always a heart that was/is chasing after Jesus. I love that Francis Chan and Mike Bickle recently got to hang out, find commonalities, and build unity. I wish there was more of that in the church. Ironically, I now go to a "seeker-friendly" church that some may call progressive or woke? And yet I've found the same thing as growing up in the prophetic...they absolutely love Jesus and his word. I feel torn and never feel like I belong in a church community because there always seem to be sides or teams. I love the work you do. Grew up on long road trips listening to your dad, "don't shoot the wounded; they need us more than ever. They need our love no matter what it is they've done". Lol. P.S. I never comment on anything. I loathe debates or conflicts. I am throwing in a different perspective. ❤ Also, love the natural grey grow out!

This is soo good! It's so true that even some small church such as mine can be influenced in deception. It takes only one person to promote 'a new direction.' Thankfully, that person and others like them left.

Thank you for bringing this issue to light!

I wonder how Holly and Doug feel about Lifeway publishing their new book since Lifeway also publishes and supports many NAR/WOF teachers and musicians?