Speaking as someone with a motion system that integrates haptics (Sigma Integrale DK2), I'll have to agree that the haptic feedback is just as important as motion in regards to immersion. I tried turning off the haptics and tried motion only and the sensation definitely lacked the depth that the haptics provided. I think a haptic feedback system definitely gives more value since it's more than 10x cheaper than a motion system. That being said, I still wouldn't give up the motion part. It's just too much fun :)
Excellent comment. And you understood the point I am making. Motion can be great fun, but I have never felt motion and thought to myself that I need it in order to be as quick as possible. It’s just a bit of fun for me where haptics like this really do add that connection to the car that I miss. Different strokes for different folks though :)
May I ask your impressions of the Sigma system? Seems like one of the more affordable systems, and I am considering going that direction since it would probably be a good addition to my VR sim setup. However, I still think that motion systems are a bit overpriced atm (niche) .
I have both as well, the DK2 and a diy shaker setup. The shaker set up costs $300 and feels like it adds $3,000 in value. The DK2 cost almost $6k and felt like it improved the experience by like $600. I still enjoy using it and they are constantly improving the product but overall, it just doesn't add nearly what a good haptic system does. Edit: To be clear, I wouldn't give up my motion setup, it adds a fun factor that is hard to put a finger on. If your concern is immersion, it's great. If you're just hunting for laptime, stick with haptics.
Based on what you said, and what I'm hearing from others, I'm designing a short travel motion rig with haptics as a best of both worlds. I'm thinking a really fast/violent 60mm of travel + haptics would be a good setup. Thoughts?
I don’t have motion but I use Somagic’s haptics in my pedals. The brake haptic alone actually took a full 1.5s off my laps on Spa in iRacing using the Skippie. YMMV but it was a very notable improvement. The throttle haptic only improved my lap over lap consistency, which helps a lot in-race.
I cannot describe enough how the best upgrade Ive ever made was putting small bass shaker on the brake pedel. So key for locking/abs. I feel utterly lost when i forget to turn it on now...
Best would be if there was a local Simshop where you can get hands on the actual stuff. Test various DDs, Loadcell brakes, rigs, VR, wheels, motion, buttkicker and so on
Local sim shops are great for finding out about this stuff for sure. But I would fear that people try the product and just go online and buy it instead of supporting that shop. I dunno
I have the older version of this and bolted it directly yo the bottom of my seat (warning be careful with the volume) I have since moved to the the rear rig frame and prefer the sensation. Bolted to the fibreglass seat I found the effect more like a buzzing than solid vibration
Yes though it was a good idea and I did not have the proper bracket at the time. But i found it just way too much. Less is def more with these things or it just turns into an annoying mess@@markrimkus200
i bought a pair of transducers and had an old home theatre amplifier laying around to do the same thing for approx $80 australian dollars. Wired them up in series and use Simhib software so control the output so the transducers have approx 200W RMS capability
This right here. There is almost no difference and it's quarter the cost. BUttkicker works great...but it's vastly overpriced for doing something a 40 dollar amp from Amazon and a Base Transducer do.
Shoutout to Sim3D as a good alternative as well. I use 4 of their motors, 2 on pedals and 2 on seat to simulate front and rear axles. I've not used a buttkicker setup so can't compare but they do the job for me and are quiet enough not to wake kids up etc
I hooked uo 2x 30w shakers to the rear of my rig, and 25w exciters on the brake and gas pedals. And yes it was a much more noticeable upgrade then going from 5nm to 8nm on my CSL DD. It only cost $120aud to do all 4 skakers and 2x 2 channel amps. Made me spend an extra 7euro on license for simhub 😂 but its totally worth it when you run lovely dash and 4 shakers
"that loose T nut you were too lazy to remove" Laurence I feel personally attacked 😂😂 Great review! It's unbelievable that hapticonnect can't support multiple discrete shakers, really valid criticism. I feel like you really went above and beyond to explain the nature of your collaboration with Buttkicker, as it seems trendy at the moment to tear creators apart - but it must be said, these videos take heart and love and energy to put together and you're killing it. Keep up the good work ❤
I originally used the buttkicker gamer 2, but the bass shaker died. I replaced it with a 300 watt Dayton BST 300EX while continuing to use the Buttkicker gamer 2 amp. All I can say is wow! The Dayton is much more powerful than the gamer 2. I do not know how it compares to this new buttkicker, but the gamer 2 was always underpowered and was always shutting off from overheating. I am thinking of getting another Dayton and getting a 4 channel amp. Combined, it will be cheaper than the single Buttkicker option.
@@christopher_hopper Get a 5.1 or 7.1 external sound card. Also get 2 channel amps. Each amp can power 2 transducers. Each amp will then plug into the sound card. You can plug in multiple amps into your external sound card. You can then control each channel in sim hub. Doing this, you can control 6 transducers.
I have the Buttkicker gamer 2 under my seat and the odd times I forget to turn the volume up and therefore no vibrations, I can instantly tell there’s something wrong with my rig. Going over rumble strips and kerbs, changing gears and wheel slip are my favourite sensations, they give my rig life and I get sensations going through my spine now and not just through my arms with the ffb from my wheelbase. If you love haptics, it’s a must buy!
Greattt! I will buy it lol to install on my ASR6 or under my car seat i installed on my asr6… do you find it noisy (when you just have one)? My wife is asking me.. lol
@@banjoqc it isn’t super noisy, but my wife has a clear rule that I’m not allowed to have the Buttkicker switched on when she and my daughter are asleep, which is fair.
The enthusiasm shown in this review is no exaggeration. The BK is such a game changer, once you have one you'll never want to race without it. For me personally it's just as vital as FFB.
LD, just like the opening videos and whatnot, I would love to see some “live” video instead of voice over for your videos. Not that I dislike your reviews, they’re fantastic, but I feel it could be more engaging. See you on the stream tomorrow though! (Today for you)
Yep I usually do a first impressions video that gives loads of driving action. But there’s nothing to see with this product which makes it difficult and also, I have had buttkickers for years so it wouldn’t have been my proper first impressions. All my long term reviews are voiced over :)
@@adz951 Every time I do it’s gets removed from RU-vid. Even if I link a channel it gets removed. I think if the link is removed Laurence may need to change his channel rules to allow RU-vid links.
I agree with you. I drive a V8 car because of the sound and vibration it makes. A Tesla is faster than it.... But the noise and the vibration is what I'm interested in- not the motion
Great review. Sound haptics are terrific. And if they are used properly, they seeming can even potentially make the average sim-racer (not e-racer) a touch faster. Motion is more fun but all the evidence seems clear that it’ll make you slower. These things are always a trade off. Perhaps someday they won’t be…
I 100% AGREE WITH YOU! I have a gamer pro in the rear and plus in the front and while playing ACC I feel the suspension and feel like I am actually moving.
I have 2 x Gamer2 and 1 x LFE running from GPU and the Monitor outs. Sort of disappointed they got rid of the lever as it does seem increase the strength of gamer2's over my lfe. I use Simhub because I can get consistent effects across multiple games. iRacing LFE is better for that game though but Simhub gives you far more control of settings with multiple BK's. BK sell isolation feet that come in the LFE kits, that together with soundproof mat usually works for most. All three of my original Amps still good except for one failed power LED. I see most people explode them not understanding how the clipping indicator or auto cut-off works.
I don’t think I could go without mine now especially in iRacing that seems to lack feel compared to other sims to begin with. I did mark the mounting pattern on the bottom of my seat and drilled it out so I could mount it directly and it’s MUCH more pronounced now. I’d recommend anyone doing it if they can.
I've owned one for three years now ....I don't like playing my racing or driving games without it......the other benefit is, it still enhancing anything you listen too(other games especially war games, movies.) Please beware this thing will shake your house SERIOUSLY...If you live in an apartment might wanna make sure you're on the first floor trust me
@@LaurenceDusoswa Oh yeah. I use it on DCS and going down the taxiway you can feel the bumps. You get the feeling of stalling before you stall, the guns firing, and even a missile coming off the jet.
Yesssss. If you can afford it… I’m odd about motion though. Most systems have WAYYYY too much latency for my liking. They’re great fun but don’t add to the driving experience for me.
I'm lucky enough to have both plus Sim3d rumble motors on my pedals and for bang for your buck a transducer mounted directly to your seat should be the first choice. I run 4x150mm actuators via SRS software and latency isn't something I've personally noticed. The experience of everything together is fantastic and they all add something to the other.
@@LaurenceDusoswa That might be because you have tryed systems in situtations where they want to impress you and audience with huge amount of travel. Only little bit of movement is needed.
One time you sould compare it to the biggest competitors, namely Dayton-Audio and Aura, AND all off these when mounted on a Rig with the Slip-Angel Isolators (on 4 corners) or the RaceBass Isolators (on seat and pedaltray). There are no real test/comparison for these great sollutions. The RaceBass and especially the Slip-Angle solution should, acording to the sources I found, greatly reduces noise while upgrade the feel even further. And the prices for thees solutions are reasonable to.
I do like the mounting solution of these new ones with the ability to mount directly to the seat which IMO greatly improves the experience. I have a gamer 2 which is now redundant compared to 2xBST 1 transducers drilled to the back and bottom of the seat controlled via Simhub
I agree. A good motion system (not a seat mover) is miles beyond any good haptics system. That said, a good motion system also includes haptic qualities. And while motion may not make you quicker, and could actually make you slower if you have it over tuned, it still brings a level of immersion that no other accessory other than a direct drive, can provide.
I have a serious problem is someone stole my buttkicker amp. I still have the transducer but not the amp. I cant buy the amp seperately, so my only option is to buy a whole new kit when i only need the amp. Thats like an extra $120 for something i dont need. What do i do?
I bought 9 of the cheapo 50 watt transducers from a closing business , installed 4 and kept 5 of em for spares when they eventually fail. Hooked up to 2 30 watt amps i rarely have the chance to run them over 50% volume at my apartment before the vibrations spill from the rig to the floor.
10:36 Be honest, you were hoping one of the motion companies were gonna say "Oh yeah, we'll send you our motion sim for free so you can see how much better a motion rig is." Can't blame you for trying.
I would say buttkicker is over priced and better off building your own kit with more depth for 150. I have one daytona in front and two under seat one is for road and other for motor. This makes the imput more clear and emersion awsome.
While I love my transducers they were not as big as going from a belt driven too a SC2 pro. Also their not like rumble motors as those are completely different technologies. These are basically a speaker with the cone missing where as a rumble motor uses a small motor and magnets.
LO... I am still trying to decide on a basic setup (wheel base, wheel, pedals) and know this is the next step. I am wondering how this compares to the SRS U-Shake 6. With the increased price of the Buttkicker Gamer PLUS the price difference has narrowed. so IDK... sitting on seat pad w/6 transducers or 1 or 2 mounted to a rig? Any thoughts or experiences anyone? Also waiting on the review of the P1000 pedals. The few reviews there are on those make it seem like its could a pretty sweet setup but idk. Wondering if those are more of the diminishing returns over something like the Fantec CSL Elites and worth the difference. Have you tried the Campus upper tier pedals? Looking for input from anyone who has tried the Simagic P1000 with or without the haptics and/or the Cammus LC100 pedals. Thanks.
Thanks. I really like your style of reviews. BTW do you know if there are lot of sales on sim gear around Black Friday or Cyber Monday? @@LaurenceDusoswa
Hey man. Thanks for the review. Wondering how you find this compared to the Gamer 2? I have a Gamer 2 now and I love it but wondering if it’s worth the upgrade? Thanks
This seems to be a little more refined, as mentioned in the video. I wouldn’t say it’s worth the upgrade but going from one haptic motor to 2 is a great upgrade
My buttkicker 2 amp failed a little bit over a year ago. As it turns out it was the bridge rectifier part of the circuitry. After repair its been working flawlessly since.
Do you have a Ps5? Wonder if this work by connecting the USB connection on your Ps5? And you can still use a USB dongle headset at the same time on Ps5?
You'd need to check the documentation. The gamer2 could be used with consoles but it wasn't straight forward and required an additional connector which isn't always possible to add to system if you were running amp or switcher.
I bought those sound dampening patches they use under washing machine legs. I placed my entire rig on 4 of those. Worked well. Also, I live in a apartment, I run volume on 10 on the amp sometimes all night long. You can barely hear it in the next room. Then during the day I run it on 18 volume, which is just perfect to feel everything and shake some stuff already. In either scenarios, not an issue. Only thing I don't like about it is there is a tiny bit of latency and it's very hard to set it up in simhub. If you use the automatic calibration (which "learns your driving style") , you would need separate profiles for different tracks and cars. As an example, if you go from Monza to Spa, the tire slip will start shaking you from the slightest wheel movement already. I have this turned off.
Interesting . Good review . If money is no object, then I can't see how it would be truly better than a full motion system. Sorry ! I'll admit , I haven't tried either. I only have a reasonable Thrustmaster T300RS wheel and LCM pedals so far. So I could be talking drivel. However for most people, money is an object, and if it gets 90% of what full motion does, then it does sound worthwhile. It looks to be about 1/10th of the price of a full motion system. I don't have the £4k for a full motion system, so I'm definitely "interested" . I need to try both, somehow ...
difference in price (mentioned being up to 30%) is not caused by voltage but sales tax. In europe (most if not all countries uses 230v) tax is included in price (20-25%) while in us and a (110v)- not. Increased voltage and higher price is just a coincidence.
I have 4 buttkicker gamer 2's on my rig. Best transducers by far. Nothing else comes close to the range these things produce. They can also simultaneously produce multipl effects due to their wide range. They are more like musical instruments compared to other transducers. They are also virtually indestructible. I had the Dayton BST-1 before. They are nowhere near as powerful as the Buttkicker and Ive had 3 fail over several years. While the buttkickers are still going strong.
I have one gamer 2 and in the low frequencies it is rattling so bad... I tried some rubber mat, some hot glue... but it doesn't really fix the problem. And it often shuts off because of overheating. But I love this thing 😀but perhaps someone can give me some ideas to fix it. This thing is not only great for sim racing, it also is so cool with shooters like Borderlands, Doom... or Starfield. Flying and shooting at the same time! But I use a cinema two-seater...
I have an XBox X that is hooked up to my Audio system with 5.1 surround sound. Can the Buttkicker be plugged directly into my sound system? Or even my XBox via usb?
How would you compare it to a motion system like a NJMotion Compact R?!... Doesnt motion adds the same information and more than a BK?!... I had a BK2 and didn't like it...
I love motion for fun. But it doesn’t make you quicker or tell you things that you don’t already know. Sure, it does some haptic stuff. But not as well as the ButtKicker devices
How would you compare the butt-kicker to the U-shake6? Unlike the butt-kicker, the U-Shake6 is a sitting pad with six speakers embedded throughout the pad to simulate the vibration from different parts of the car.
Gamer plus owner here: it's really good, I like the extra immersion a lot. But still think this set is a bit (10-25%) overpriced (EU price). Also I've experienced overheating in long sessions. So now, when I know it's gonna be a long session, I point a fan on the transducer during short breaks.
When I order within the EU, I use Amazon.de. I’m in Ireland so also in the EU. But for smaller things I use Amazon UK because it’s usually a lot quicker :)
you can speak to s0mething you dont have, having both haptic and motion, I could lose the haptic any day, its not vital to the experience, everything the haptic gives is felt through the wheel aswell. just a biased and uneducated opinion
I had 2 bad shakers on my bucket seat and it was great. Then i changed rig, and added motion system (simrig sr2). Many months later the shakers are sleeping on the shelf, and i don't feel the need to install them again any time soon. Motion is bringing what shakers were bringing, and 1000x more. So yes motion is very expensive, but its a complete different league
Thanks for a very informative video. I have the 150 watt, Gamer Pro on the way, (arriving next week). I use real automotive seats in the custom-built rigs I have ...one for flying & one for racing. I plan to wedge it in the under-seat-compartments wrapped in foam. Does the transducer need air-cooling ...does it get very hot?
Hi i am using haptic software from buttkicker but ets2 when i click on the setting in haptic software it says i need to enable telemetry but i dont know how
If your rig is solid, you won’t be able to feel the various corners properly unless you can run them at crazy power. If it’s wood or something then fine. But from my experience, it’s easy to assume which corner is causing the issue if you’re braking, accelerating, etc based on the car you’re driving. Getting the feedback is important. Where it comes from, for me, is not a concern and doesn’t take away from immersion.
I have often considered getting these, but im put off because it requires multiple amps connected to mutiple tranducers. Although the opportunity to annoy my downstairs neighbour is incredibly tempting.
Damn costs 300 these days? I bought it for 200 something a couple of years ago. Here is my long run review with it. It works absolutely amazing for 2 to 3 years. After that the transducer cylinder gets wider. Gets eaten by the piston inside. There will be a big gap between cilinder and the piston. This will cause side to side movement and the piston hitting the walls of the cilinder. Causing unbearable noise. Now you need a new transducer. I don't use it because I went for 4 actuators motion setup. But when it works it's great. Only use it with simbub. I have a new transducer if I ever want to build a new rig.
That's a silly question. 300$ solution versus $5000+ setup. Haptic: Very immersive. Buttkicker can achieve that. Go for PRO if you can. Haptic + Motion: Very, very immersive. Both together: Incredibly immersive. This debate is a bit pointless. Buy what you can afford.
It does? If it does, even if it's not as good as pc, I would love to get one. Does it plug in directly to the PS5? I use a diy rig but I'm looking at getting something better so I'd like to get both at the same time. Thank you for your response.
Hell, I just got my dual Dayton 16ohm and nobsounds Amp. Wow this makes a difference.. No more guessing if the rear landed on a rumble strip. In F4 i can now tell when the rear wheels are slipping after sending it hard 😅 Haptic fees back is a 100% needed upgrade 😊
where would i mount this on this wheel stand 2.0 using my own chair? under the pedals? currently using the club sport v3 inverted which i think have their own haptics but are understated.
Laurence, sorry to ask this here but if I were to not go any higher than 15Nm for peak torque which is what the Alpha is rated at, would there be any benefit to going with the Alpha U still? e.g. would there still be any improvement to the details of the ffb or something else, when going max 15Nm on the Alpha and Alpha U? Many thanks in advance if you can help me with this.
I'd say it depends on the max continuous torque of the motor. The maximum torque label advertised for a wheel base is usually the stall or holding torque. This is basically the amount of torque you would have to force on the wheel with your hands to stop it dead from turning if it were trying to spin in one direction at max power). What really matters however, is the continuous torque or CT. This is the amount of actual power it has at any given moment, (in addition, the ability of the motor to ramp this up instantaneously in milliseconds is called its "slew rate". These two things affect the detail of the FFB "under pressure" from your hands as well as other effects trying to run at the same time. So, the higher the CT and Slew Rate, the more detailed and smoother the wheel is. As a general rule, higher Stall Torque usually indicates high CT torque (usually its about half to two thirds the stall torque on a top end wheel base). This is why its always a good idea in general to set the torque at near max in the Windows controller driver, then turn it down in the game itself if its too heavy. The Simagic Alpha is rated around 15nm max for holding torque, so I would assume (without actual numbers from Simagic) that the wheel's actual usable torque or CT is about 7 to 8nm. Turning down the max torque will also turn this down as well, which would directly affect the wheel's detail and feel under pressure. (whether in the driver, or comparing against two different powered bases)
@@fredsas12 omg...thank you so much for your reply and the level of detail explaining everything. My mind is literally blown. So adjusting the peak torque level in the driver is just adjusting the total power output and since the CT point is at a fixed ratio of the total power output (usually about 1/2 to 2/3) you will also shift down the CT point proportionally as you shift down the peak torque in the driver. Here's a question....is there a way to keep the power output at maximum so as to have the highest CT possible but then set the torque output limit to be where the CT is? I can set the ingame ffb gain lower so as to force the range of torque outputs whilst normal driving to operate in the lower half of the total torque range (i.e. the CT range) BUT (before this wonderful knowledge you've given me) I normally like to set the ingame ffb gain as high as possible so that the clipping point is just above areas of normal driving that experience peak steering forces and then lower the peak torque in the driver to set peak forces experienced at the wheel to what I'm comfortable with. That way if I should crash, I don't get a dangerous and uncomfortable torque spike out of my ffb wheel. But if I adopt this alternative arrangement (i.e. setting driver ffb to max and lowering the ingame ffb gain), I will then be setting myself with a dangerous potential especially if I get the alpha U (which given what you've now explained, I really would prefer to get over the Alpha now). You wouldn't happen to know of a solution to this problem?
@@DrR1pper If you turn the down FFB strength in game, it should reduce all game forces down (including crash/jerk forces), some games have an option to boost small or lower powered force effects to ensure that all details is not lost from the "volume" being to low. But you should remember that if you are wanting to purchase a higher strength FFB wheel, then that already comes with greater "injury" potential. Unless your wheel driver software has an option to adjust its "slew rate" independently of its max "stall" torque rate, then it will be simply something that you will have to learn to deal with. The CT rate is effectively tied to the max stall torque rate in most motors (regardless of whether they are FFB wheels, industrial motors or even car engines. - Think of a car's accelerator pedal; In order reach max rpm, you push the pedal 100% and the engine immediately revs to max and hits the limiter (this is max slew rate), you push the pedal 20% down and revs to max rpm, but this time much more lazily, but it still reaches max RPM.. However, give the engine actual work to do, i.e.; putting it into gear and driving, and the engine will not be able to achieve max rpm at 20% vs 100% throttle. (This is usable CT torque). Some motors can do what you are suggesting because they have superior electronics (CPUs) and software governing their variables, so maybe the motor can put out near max CT torque for a "given load" whilst keeping the max Stall Torque down. This is very unusual and would only be found in the most expensive wheel bases (like Asetek or Simucube). Basically any wheel base that has an adjustable "slew rate" should be able to do so in conjunction with anti jerk-whip/damping software controls. I'm not really familiar with Simagic wheels or software, so you would probably actually have more info on the software on that aspect.
Yes 100%! And just tweak it to give you only the things that give the most value. Like if you struggle with abs, just focus on that. Always turn on the gear shift feedback because it’s awesome. Rear wheel slip is always a good one too.
Haptics are SUPER important. That being said, i would not compare to motion systems, they are indeed in a all diferent league, as anyone who tried or own them, knows it. So in conclusion, haptics like this (or cheaper similar ones), are indeed a HUGE addon to anyone in the Sim world, and if price it's a limit factor for entering the Motion world, this is the perfect alternative...even more perfect (for those who can afford), it's to have them together with Motion system...that is near Sim Heaven! Cheers for the review
It seems like a neat idea, something you could attach to your wheelstand to feel some of the surfaces, I don't suppose these can be used to give a little feeling to the clutch as you interact with the bite point. Not a big deal most of the time, but sometimes would be handy when pulling off, especially without traction control.
Man my 08 cobalt ss cost less than a full sim setup…. That’s sad… I’ve always wanted to setup a full rig but I might be able to eventually swing a used Amazon g923 lol
