Beware! A dangerous right hand problem for guitarists - Alice Artzt

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In this video from September 2015, internationally acclaimed classical guitarist, Alice Artzt explains and analyzes a particular very serious right hand problem that guitarists, lutenists, and even pianists may develop if they use their muscles and tendons in stressful ways. To play well and easily, we must work in ways that align with the way hand and arm anatomy actually work. She discusses the problem, its causes, ways to prevent it from happening, and what to do if it occurs. Copyright © 2015 - Alice Artzt. Several people have asked if Ms. Artzt gives Skype lessons - she does. She feels they are not as good as in person, but certainly better than nothing, and the Skype students she has taught in the past and is now teaching seem happy. She charges the same $70. an hour that she charges students who come to her studio in Princeton NJ.) For more information or to contact Alice Artzt, she can be reached at: guitartzt@aol.com

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8 сен 2015

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Комментарии : 141

@Guitartzt 7 лет назад

In answer to Mr. Paul Prachun's comment, I would merely suggest reading my comments of 4 months ago. With this video, I am trying to help people to prevent the sorts of career ending paralysis that I have witnessed in so many guitarists, lutenists, and even pianists, because of their using a problematical and faulty technique that did not take into consideration the physiology and anatomy of the hand and arm. I started out using a technique closer to what M. Prachun suggests for six years,. Only after much very dedicated practicing that way, did I change from doing that to the technique that Ida Presti used and taught. I felt an instant improvement in stability, strength, accuracy, and speed. I am absolutely convinced that had I not done that technical change, no matter how hard I might have practiced for however many hours every day, I would never have succeeded in playing at a high professional level, nor would I have had any chance of achieving the successful concert and recording career I had.

@hipocampelofantocame 7 лет назад

Alice: This is a blast from the past, but I just watched your video (Beware, dangerous right hand problem), and it was so good to see you again after these many years. You stayed with me long ago in Sacramento, and I used to stay up into the wee hours listening to you practice. I also drove you to Stanford for your next gig. It's refreshing that YT has the reach of forty years back in history. I finally quit the guitar and ended up playing bagpipe piobaireachd for five years. Now I listen. Reddy MacLeod, Sacramento, CA 95825

@Guitartzt 7 лет назад

Yes I do remember - thanks so much for writing. Sorry you are not still playing - though I have to say I am really only teaching now and not performing at all any more. Best etc, Alice

@robertterry2838 3 года назад

Excellent video.

@andrewwheelerguitar Год назад

Absolutely refreshing to see a real and accomplished teacher here on YT. There is so much garbage out there online for “tips you need as a guitarist” and here we have an excellent video which explains virtually every right hand problem finger style guitarists will encounter.

@Guitartzt Год назад

Many thanks for your kind words. I agree -there is a lot of rubbish and nonsense out in the world. We guitarists, as with other musicians and anyone else, have to do things in ways that are compatible with our hand and arm anatomy. I find even some people (sometimes even accomplished guitarists who basically actually do things right) often do not understand what they do, and may describe what they do wrongly or in ways that can easily be misunderstood. So their students or followers try to do things wrong and suffer as a result. Or they may do things wrong themselves, and just tell their students nonsense, and sabotage them that way. I was very lucky to have had Ida Presti as a teacher, and to have had enough of a scientific mind, and an interest in anatomy, to figure out why what she taught worked so much better than what I had first been taught - which probably would have caused me problems if I had kept doing that for very long - and was similar to what a lot of people struggle with still.

@MastanehNazarian 7 лет назад

Great video. Thanks for sharing it.

@Guitartzt 7 лет назад

Thanks - and for sure the Alexander Technique is a wonderful way of working on many of the relaxation issues musicians suffer from.

@johnf4659 8 лет назад

Thanks for this video. Could you, if you find the time, make a video on RH and LH exercises for beginners?

@stevebanjo197 6 лет назад

Alice,,, that was excellent info for beginners to professionals , I recovered successfully / completely from right hand index finger dystonia , it toke a long time , but if when I started to play if only I could have been coached by you , I would have never gotten focal dystonia THANK YOU

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I am so glad you recovered. I have been trying to get the word out for many years, since this problem has curtailed a lot of careers, and made big problems for guitarists who didn't get it figured out. That's why I made this video. If anyone reading this has such problems and needs more help about the issue, I have been giving Skype lessons as well as in person lessons. Ideally everyone playing the guitar should know this information.

@munetakasaito3936 4 года назад

Hellow Steve,I have Dystonia in right hand for 5 years. Please teach me how you recovered from Dystonia.

@haroldcampos9661 6 лет назад

I love you so much. I keep having a tense and curling pinky. As soon as you said ‘wrist’ I knew what my problem was. When I pull my wrist in and make a plucking motion with the a and m fingers my pinky curls but if I slightly arch my wrist the way I’m being taught, the problem disappears! Thank you so much for the educational video alice!

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I'm so very glad that I could help you. Good luck for the future of your playing - and stay relaxed.

@andrewlewis4274 4 месяца назад

I still listen with great joy to the Meridian recording (1978) of Alice Artzt playing Fernando Sor. I have never enjoyed any performances of these works any better. Thank you, Alice

@wapolo1974 8 лет назад

Extremely informative video, Alice; thank you for uploading it. I studied with you online very, very briefly some years ago, and still remember much of what you told me. Cheers, Wilson

@Guitartzt 8 лет назад

+wapolo1974 - Nice to hear from you. I glad if this was helpful to you. Good luck with everything. Best etc, Alice

@edbrown5787 8 лет назад

Alice, I highly applaud you for posting this video. I am one who knows first hand of the condition of which you speak and how important it is to let others know of its possible occurrence in their own playing. You identify the problem (which many may not even know they are developing) which in turn provides the first step towards remediation. (I remember vividly your analysis of the "trigger-finger"- like ring finger I developed and the steps we took to correct it) I sometimes see it appearing in my own students and are quick to draw attention to it. I shall direct students/players developing incorrect habits to view your video, for you know of what you speak.

@Guitartzt 8 лет назад

Thanks so much for your kind words Ed. Your students are lucky to have such a great teacher.

@analogjazzprojectmike3386 7 лет назад

Alice Artzt I have trouble keeping my A finger steady while playing scales with the M and I. I think its a matter of muscle memory. I've been using my A and M and even AMI for scales as using all three fingers is easier than two. I don't think I'll get hurt. I pull from the knuckle

@filmic1 6 лет назад

Thanks for explaining. I've had two teachers emphasize the importance of having a good hanging arch over the strings. It wasn't explained why though.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Glad I could help. Best etc, Alice

@tonyrath4064 6 лет назад

Ida Presti along with Julian Bream and John Williams were my guitar heroes in the 60s I started using index and ring finger for picado in 1968 as it gave more volume I can also bend the distal Joints on my right hand I am going to refer my pupils to your posts it is great teaching material Btw I have just found some of your recordings- beautiful playing

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Yes alternating i and a works well for a lot of people. I loved all those players also and did take a master class with Bream - however only a genius like Bream could play with a RH position that he uses. Studying with Presti was the great breakthrough for me. Thanks so much for the kind words, and the referrals of your students.

@paulmitchell5349 2 года назад

Hi Alice. I like the technical aspect of your lessons. I guess I am an exception to the exercise at 2 mins 18 seconds. I have been climbing difficult cliffs for 50 years. I can move 2 other fingers independently or at the same time as pulling against the ring finger .The exception proves the rule.

@Guitartzt 2 года назад

Well that is very impressive if you really can do it - stretch out the tip joints of the two fingers on either side of the "a" finger and not have the tip joint of the "a" finger collapse and flatten out too. That is something pretty much wired into people. Here is a thing I have noticed a few oriental people can do, that is pretty much not found in non oriental people - the ability to bend JUST the tip joint of any finger, while holding all the fingers, at all other joints, absolutely straight - or even bent back a bit. Bending the middle joint only, can be done - usually with some concentrated thought at first - but the tip joints generally don't work at all independently. But I've polled people in various master classes world wide, and I have found occasional people who could do it - particularly in the Far East - or elsewhere but generally with people who look oriental. (I have been assuming it was selected for in Thai dancers, or something like that.)

@idontwanttousemynameyoutub7538 4 месяца назад

The problem is one of conditioning - making sure that the muscles involved are healthy and strong - and of not persisting with a faulty technique or pain. Flexability is paramount for the muscles on both sides of the forearm as there is a relationship between them, and if your gripping muscles are tight, you are more likely to have issues with the muscles on the back of your forearm. Be careful.

@halilakaydin8471 9 лет назад

Thanks for the video. Are there any secrets to eliminating tension in the fretting hand/arm?

@SueRosalie 6 лет назад

see Jamie Andreas for that information

@tonyrath4064 6 лет назад

This information is invaluable I am a 72 year old guitar teacher based in the uk I teach adults some of them older who may have hand problems One of the biggest issues is tension in the right hand- the reduction thereof and the avoidance of injury or strain On pupil has already had carpal tunnel surgery because of using tools for carpentry I am lucky because I play and teach piano and also flamenco guitar This seems to build up strength and agility I also use the flamenco position for playing I do suggest to pupils that workouts with springs or weights helps to develop strength

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Glad you found this video informative. I agree that the Flamenco position works very well for flamenco and gets the arm well stabilized. The only catch is if you are doing more other things, then having to hold the forearm up in position is hard to do if you are not strong - or precisely in position for a long time even if you are strong. So getting strong as you say is super important, but also making sure the right forearm and wrist as relaxed as possible, stable and well supported, (with the fingers just hanging down and not being helped by the wrist and arm pulling them around, and the wrist out far enough that the fingers can be independent and do the work in an anatomically reasonable way) is crucial. Good luck with your teaching. Best etc, Alice

@tonyrath4064 6 лет назад

Alice Artzt thank you your response I do not recommend the position I choose to my pupils as it depends on A lot of physical strength I do play for 3-4 hours a day I use rest stroke for scales but can control the dynamics Speed - top speed with good sound is about 185 bpm at 4 notes per beat which is not bad for an old gent I also springs which are heavy and do 80 exercises in each hand daily plus work on the piano I teach boogie blues and jazz piano this really makes the hands work

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Well I don't do all those exercises you do,. and coulnd't at all play now the way I did during my concert career. But I do generally try to get new students to use a right hand position along the line of the Ida Presti RH position, since I find it makes a lot of sense physiologically, gives one a lot of control over stability, strength, and quality of sound, and I found it enabled my career that I am pretty sure I would not have had if I hadn't changed to doing that position. Of course if I get a new virtuoso student who is doing OK, then I generally don't do much to change - just watch out for whatever is not working. I don't use the flamenco position myself at all, but I have observed that for doing fast apoyando scales or razgueados, and not worrying much about the subtle quality of sound, it seems to be pretty stable and works well.

@G7sus4chord 6 лет назад

Glad I found this video. I'm an intermediate guitar player who is trying to venture out into using my ring finger for the finger picking passages in my music. I am developing this kind of problem for the reasons you described, but it is affecting the back of my neck more than anywhere along my arm. I'm wondering if anyone has any comments of what I'm doing (or not doing) that would make it manifest in this way.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

If you are having problems with the back of your neck, (or your back also), you are probably tensing up one of your arms or shoulders or holding it up un-naturally. Not being able to see you play, I can't tell, but one possible thing that could help, if you are holding the guitar too horizontal to the floor.... Try getting the guitar into a bit closer to the position the cello is held in, with the lower bouts of the guitar down further and out nearly to your knee cap, and the fingerboard slanting upwards and more near to your left shoulder. That may help release the tension in the right arm and allow that shoulder not to be held up too high, and will also make things easier for your left hand fingers to reach the fingerboard more easily.

@G7sus4chord 6 лет назад

Thank you! This comment and the tips provided on this video have already helped! Bravo!

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I'm so glad. Best of luck.

@johnparker7784 6 лет назад

Right hand use/placement is something that is not discussed enough. This was extremely interesting. Thank you Alice.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

You're very welcome. Thanks for your kind words. What you say is so true - we guitarists don't have a tradition of hundreds of years of conservatory teaching by well established virtuosos to guide us - lots of guitar teachers just figure out whatever they can, and then teach whatever they came up with, whether it makes sense anatomically, or works well, or not.

@Guitartzt 9 лет назад

Not really a secret - but make sure your left arm is hanging down relaxed right next to your body. Make sure the thumb is positioned under the center of gravity of whatever your fingers are doing so it supports whatever they are doing. Train the LH fingers to stretch and be flexible, and try to get them to reach whatever configurations you need without swinging the elbow out away from your body, or making the wrist get into some awkward position, in order to attain whatever stretches or chords or fingerings you need. The arm should just hang down from the shoulder no matter what you are doing. I may try to put a few more videos on RU-vid to explain this some more. Also I am hoping to get my out of print book "The Art of Practising" available again soon, and that has ideas in it about how to work on these issues and many more.

@halilakaydin8471 9 лет назад

+Alice Artzt Thanks for the reply. Very helpful for us hobby players.

@lawcch 8 лет назад

+Alice Artzt yes, Alice, I do remembered back in early 1980 I saw your an advertisement about your Book on "The Art of Practising" in the Guitar International magazine. It was a useful book for guitarists but not so many publicity and promotional bout your book. I hope you can revise and update the book and make it an eBook so that you can sell directly to guitarists over the world. Great explanation video

@Guitartzt 8 лет назад

Thank you for your kind words. Well, I didn't update it at all, but it is now published on Amazon so is now very easy to buy pretty much world-wide. It does seem to be selling now. If you like it, and feel like going to Amazon and writing short review of what you think of it, do please do so. Thanks so much of you decide to do that. I think it helps get the word out.

@stevefulnecky4563 4 года назад

Hi Alice, ( we've met a few times before, once in Denver, 1976 at Temple Buell College, and also in Cleveland or Toronto, I kind of forget - no, Arizona when John Duarte was there maybe '89 or so ). I have had this in the left hand #3 finger where the finger contracts into the palm, perhaps during sleep, then doesn't want to "return" to a normal position without help from the other hand- with a kind of "click" and a little pain sometimes. For me, an MD, who was also a guitarist, injected a steroid into the palm where the tendon connects. It hurt when he did it, and the finger was numb for about 2 days, which scared me of course. Then the numbness went away and the problem went away, but a year later, it's trying to "come back". I'm trying to control it with diet and relaxation types of things, so far, so good. Hope you're well.

@Guitartzt 4 года назад

Sorry you are having this problem. I am less familiar with its happening in the left hand and I only had one student, ever, who had that problem, and she attributed it to her job of typesetting - working very fast at a newspaper late at night trying to get things done very quickly - a very tense job. With her, it didn't seem to have anything to do with her guitar playing. Your LH problem may be more related to what pianists have happen. Relaxing is always good of course. Beyond that, I'd make sure you are doing nearly all of your LH finger movement from the knuckle joints of the fingers, and coming down very much straight down onto the tips of the fingers...not pulling or pushing the strings, and not engaging the tip joints in much of any activities Make sure your LH position is such that you can move just from the knuckle joints and have the fingers land where you want. Also make sure your thumb is well placed under the center of gravity of wherever your fingers are pressing down, and that the thumb gives them good solid support to push against...arm should be hanging down naturally near your body, but not pulling down on your hand - ie don't use the weight of your arm to "push" the fingers down - that could cause problems. Fingers push down and the thumb pushes the other direction to counter and balance the finger motion - all self contained.

@JamesMcCutcheon 6 лет назад

Perfect, Gracias!!!!

@Guitartzt 3 года назад

RU-vid sent me a comment from Reza F , but I cannot find it here to answer. Very frustrating.

@AndreiKrylov Год назад

My right hand fingers - m and a in particular are not working on the guitar anymore... all music recorded in last 5 years done by just p and i fingers. Performance of classical music is not possible anymore. Therefore you are absolutely right in this sense. Work killed my fingers.. and not a guitar only but more - computer mouse.. because I was not only performer and composer but also editor, recording engineer, designer etc. - I recorded, edited, published more than 5000 music pieces during my career..

@Guitartzt Год назад

It is possible to recuperate from this sort of damage but it does take a lot of time and patience and you have to relearn how to move your fingers. Above all try not to ask your fingers to work from anything but the joint nearest the palm of the hand. All fingers can be curved, but all must be curved to about the same degree, and then must be moved from base joint - both for your work and for playing the guitar. Above all, do not try to use the tip joints of any fingers to do actual independent movement. (Particularly the tip joints of the m, a and little finger are absolutely not independent and cannot work independently - ie separately.) I have had several students who came to me with this problem and did manage to get back to playing, so don't give up. Good luck.

@Guitartzt 8 лет назад

The 10 String Guitar Channel's comments are most unfortunate and misinformed. Clearly they have never heard of Ida Presti and all the wonderful guitarists who have used her RH technique for many many years, producing a much stronger rounder tone with a much more relaxed right hand. There is nothing unnatural about her RH technique - in fact it uses the hand and wrist in a much more natural and relaxed way than what this writer presumably does. This is why the Presti technique makes it possible to easily play so much more strongly with a much richer rounder tone than most players with a left side of the nail technique do. Anyone who has heard me in concert or in recordings knows that my tone is not at all as they describe. I do not wish to brag, but in my defense I might mention that he Daily Telegraph's Headline for its review of my London debut concert in 1969 was "Guitarist of Great Power" Just listen to any of my records or concert recordings. As far as the problems mentioned, I am not making this up. In my long career, performing and teaching world wide, I have encountered many many guitarists with such problems. I could list hundreds of guitarists and guitar students I have encountered and helped with such problems, and even a number of concert guitarists whose careers were terminated or very strongly affected by such problems. Yet I have NEVER found anyone who used the Presti RH technique had such problems - it is always guitarists who play initiating the stroke with the left hand side of the nail with the wrist often held too low and usually quite straight. When guitarists with such severe problems that they can no longer play at all have come to me for help, it was their changing to using the Presti RH technique that cured them and enabled them to perform again. I have no idea who this person is, or why they apparently hate me so. I was tempted to just delete their dishonest and misinformed screed. But I thought it might be better to leave it so anyone who might encounter such a person, or such "arguments", might see how ignorant they are. To change the subject slightly, for what it's worth, the photo of the left hand in this person's post looks pretty awkward - with the little finger all stretched out completely straight and flat. With the little finger flat, that finger is unable to play coming down on the string directly using the tip of the finger - all this while the first finger is curled up way more than it needs to be. The player needs to bring his/her arm in more towards his/her body, possibly re-position the guitar - tilted more so the fingerboard is up higher and closer to the player's body (ie more reachable), probably re-position the LH thumb to be under the center of gravity of the hand instead of just being under the first finger (where I suspect it is in that photo, even though I can't see it), so that the hand is balanced with all fingers having equal access to all the strings. Doing this will get the little finger in a position to be able to come down strongly on the finger tip. Look at anyone good performing, and you won't find the little finger stretched out flat that way with all the other fingers cramped. Just now, looking to my right, I noticed a listing for a post from Douglas Niedt about left hand position, and the little picture there is a perfect illustration of how a left hand SHOULD look - palm of the hand parallel to the fingerboard and all fingers curved similarly with all finger tips hovering over the string they are to play next. The guitar fingerboard is also tilted up more - as I suggested. So anyway, I am suspecting that the writer of this screed may not be a very good player, and hasn't thought things through very well.

@timothya3350 8 лет назад

Ms Artzt You are awsome as is your videos, I might not be the best player but your videos have been very helpful, my teacher studied with you and has always spoke of you so highly, he teaches the same righ hand aproach and he also helped a lot of people with right hand tension play more naturally. This ten strings guy is silly, probably upset that he does not have as much acclaim as you do a published auther, outstanding player and teacher who has directly shaped many young players into better more refined musicians. You are Awesome and anyone who tries to contest that is either a fool or jealous.

@Guitartzt 8 лет назад

Thank you so much for your kind words. So happy that I could help you. Best etc, Alice

@DJones-rs9ji 6 лет назад

Alice Artzt Lady, it doesn't seem like you yourself can play anymore while there are players well into old age who are using techniques you prejudiciously denounce. Let's be honest: hardly anyone has ever had problems from the approach you villify. On the contrary, the ones with nerve damage of the right hand always have a twist in the wrist. What you are doing is advocating bigotry against those who do not follow your particular brand of guitar dogma. Spare the "misinformed" another rambling lecture or video of how you clutch at rulers. That has ziltch to do with making music. And referring us to Ida is a red herring. Since she died young you have no idea what her approach would have done to her right hand in the long-run. Rather, please prove that YOU can still play and that you haven't wrecked your hands. In other words, put up...

@xpursangjock8724 3 года назад

@@DJones-rs9ji "On the contrary, the ones with nerve damage of the right hand always have a twist in the wrist"... Okay, name a few concert guitarists. Certainly John Williams, Roland Dyens, Paco de Lucia, Segovia, Regino Sainz de la Maza, Christopher Parkening or Elliot Fisk won't appear on your list. I suppose everyone is supposed to follow your dogma now? Did you invent that right hand wrist brace and are losing sales?

@jgrossma 6 лет назад

Alice, interesting video. Can you comment on the differences (if any) between the Ida Presti technique you endorse, and Christopher Berg's "ballistic motion" technique? Seems to me these are conceptually similar, with the wrist held in slight flexion (up off the fingerboard) and the main driving motion coming from the proximal interplalangeal joints/large knuckle of the right hand.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I am not familiar with Christopher Berg's ideas or discussion, but from what you say, I'd imagine he and I are on the same wave length. Actually, I think most good players, whether they are students of Ida Presti, or of Segovia, or of other teachers who think ergonomically, do most of the strong work of moving their fingers from that same joint, since that joint is the strongest, and also, moving from that joint gives the fingers the most independence from each other. The Presti position involves some issues other than just where the finger movement comes from - position of hand and forearm, relaxation of the wrist, curvature of the fingers, angle and striking position of the nails and finger tips etc, but the finger movement from that joint is a big factor for sure.

@jgrossma 6 лет назад

Alice, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm not really familiar with Presti's technique, that's why I asked. Berg was a student of Aaron Shearer and is currently distinguished professor and head of the guitar program at the University of South Carolina School of Music. He's written several books on classical guitar, including "Classical guitar technique, process and essence", which incorporates careful consideration of anatomy in modern technique. He came up with the term "ballstic motion" to describe a fast twitch-like pulling of the picking finger across the string, which then returns passively by normal elasticity. The technique is described in the above book, which is in print, readily available and fairly inexpensive. Berg is pretty highly regarded; and I think a lot of modern guitarists are familiar with his model, which is why I asked.

@jgrossma 6 лет назад

With respect to Segovia's technique, the man performed into his 90s, obviously it worked for him! His technique was "the" reference for many decades, and clearly many have used it to good effect. I think now, many believe that the "hockey stick" shaped downwards deviation of the wrist Segovia favored leads to a non-straight tendon pull path that simply isn't anatomically optimal, and that contributes to tendon injury, and/or dystonia over time. Instead the wrist is to be held slighty arched/flexed, but with a roughly straight line from the center of the middle finger knuckle through the wrist to elbow. In terms of how Segovia actually sounded the strings with movement from the proximal joint, yes, that seems to be the consensus of many schools. Again, thank you for putting up this material.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I am certainly familiar with Christopher Berg as a guitarist, though it has been a long time since I heard him play anything - I may have been on jurys early on - I don't really remember. As I said I think anyone who plays well does get most of their finger movement and strength from the knuckle nearest the palm of the hand. I also think we all think that the finger then falls back to the starting position by pure gravity, but I also think that once one tries to play really fast, there needs to be some help from the muscles on the top of the forearm. Flamencos are generally very strong that way, due to all the fast scales they play, and I think I may have got that idea from Pepe Romero, whom I have found to be a very thoughtful person and friend. If you are interested in finding out more about Ida Presti's technique, I have made a video about that here on RU-vid also. I credit anything I could ever do well technically to her teaching and her ideas on technique. Had I not met and studied with her, I'd never have had the career I had, no matter how hard I would have tried (and for sure, I would have REALLY tried).

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I know some people feel that a bent wrist can be a problem, but I have certainly not ever found it to be so. Problems with right hands invariably are caused by a too low wrist, and using the hand and arm muscles in dangerous ways - as discussed in this video. I have seen way too many cases to have any doubt at all about this. I have also noticed people doing what I knew would have bad results if they kept it up, and then seen them have exactly those bad results a few years later. If I see such a person, and have any influence, I have always tried hard to steer them away from the problem as urgently as i could. Too may people - even many that had major careers as performers or teachers - have had their careers ruined by such problems. However, I've never known of anyone playing with the Presti position having any such problems, ever, no matter how old they got while still performing. And though I no longer perform professionally and have really not practiced at all in over 20 years, my right hand still works fine, and has no problems. (Well, these days, I certainly could not play all the virtuoso pieces I used to play, but that is mostly a matter of left hand speed issues.) Segovia's position was not exactly like Presti's, but even so it was not totally dissimilar. His wrist was certainly bent, and, as you say, he played into his 90s (though I do have to say his playing was not as fine in his 90s as it was when he was considerably younger). I think the fact he had a wonderful circulation in his hands also helped to keep him going into very old age. Did you ever shake hands with him? He had very big soft warm paws - I doubt he even knew what it was like to have cold hands - ever. These days a lot of people are now using guitar arm rests that elevate the forearm a bit so that the wrist can be a little straighter and still achieve the same position - a very nice idea. But a bent wrist never seemed to be a problem that I have ever heard about or noticed in myself or in anyone else - ever.

@limbodo 6 лет назад

Hi I've been having difficulty with tremolo and arpggios for a while now, the problem being that the m finger doesn't seem to release properly so I often miss the string and tension just increases the longer I play. I used to have a tremolo that worked, but was never that relaxed. I think it could be related to what you are talking about - have you come across this much? Another theory for the problem I have is that the little finger doesn't really know what its doing and unbalances the hand - I'm trying to allow it to go with the a finger, but itfeels inconsistant

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Very likely this is related to what I am talking about. Yes I have seen this before - not all that rare. It is more usual for the a finger to be the problem one, but the m can be also. Definitely do try to keep the a and the little finger working together - that helps. You can even make sure that is happening by wrapping a pipe cleaner gently around both those fingers, below the middle joint so they work together as one. Make sure your wrist if=s far enough out that you have plenty of room for the fingers - already curled - to move working from, and using, the joint nearest the palm of the hand. If you have not been doing this before (I assume), you will need to create a new habit and this takes a bit of time - several weeks of being very slow and very vigilant - do a lot of slow careful practicing, making sure you are doing it exactly right. Make sure the wrist and forearm are VERY relaxed and not holding the hand in place at all. Point towards the center of the earth, and then keep you hand in that position, but then with fingers curved in order to play. DO not curve your fingers as you pluck - they have to be curved BEFORE you pluck - you just push the tip of the already curved finger, with the finger nail making a nice ramp that pushes the string down, past the string and under (not so much into) the palm of the hand. Hope this is clear. Good luck.

@limbodo 6 лет назад

Thanks for getting back to me , I really appreciate it. I've been having this problem for a few years now. I think my hand position is maybe a bit too low and though the a and i fingers are reasonable extended I claw in the middle one a little to compensate for it being longer. I studied Classical guitar initially , but now play mainly Flamenco. I was wondering if you did Skype lessons at all? I play for a living and really need to sort this out - I'm not sure how to balance performing (in restaurants etc as background) with taking time out to do weeeks of slow practising.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I think probably even just getting your wrist out further would help. The further out it is (within reason), doing that sort of equalizes the fingers a bit more so they can all work more or less at the same angle - ie all the fingers can reach strings a bit further apart without the whole hand having to help or change position, so you can work pretty much exclusively from the joint nearest the palm of the hand. Indeed it is difficult to keep playing professionally at the same time you are trying to change techniques or hand positions. Usually stopping playing the things you were playing makes the creating of new habits easier. At a minimum, I'd try to keep those two activities separated - ie don't play your usual stuff trying a new position until you really have the new technique well ensconced. Students who try to play old stuff with the new position before they are ready, usually find that even if they keep thinking hard, just doing the old stuff makes their new position deteriorate into what they used to do as they play. So they end up switching positions back and forth and the poor hand has no idea what it is doing by the end. I do give Skype lessons, as it says in the paragraph above, under my name. I teach every day of the week and weekend except Tuesdays, starting around noon and going into the evening. If you are interested, just contact me by E Mail - Guitartzt@aol.com and we can figure out a time/day etc.

@Sictransit701 3 года назад

Would you be willing to help me? I think I may have focal dystonia. It started a few years ago. My middle finger used to curl in and stay there. I couldn’t alternate I and m. After a few years of slow practice I am now able to alternate I and m. However, now my A finger likes to stick out. I can’t do simple arpeggios or alternate with the a finger. Please. I need help. It’s so sad. Is there anyway I could send you a video of my playing and that we could talk?

@Guitartzt 3 года назад

It does seem, from your description, as though you do have this problem. Have you tried changing RH position and doing what I suggest here? I have helped people, and seen people get themselves out of this problem, but it does take time and a lot of patience and very relaxed practice. If you have been doing this for years, it may take quite a while to retrain your hand - but it is possible. If you want to send me a video, I can take a look, and let you know my thoughts, though after that it might work better to actually take a Skype lesson so I could guide you a bit more directly. My E Mail is Guitartzt@aol.com

@oriventura 6 лет назад

I suffered from focal dystonia. It really is horrible. Luckily I got recovered, with the help of institutart - a medical institute near barcelona. the process was exactly as you describe it - it was becoming harder and harder to play and the more i tried to fix it the worse it got, to the place i couldn't play at all.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I am so glad you recovered from this horrible problem. Keep telling other people about it. This is so little discussed and so little understood. Most people who have it just think they need to keep practicing harder than before - which of course makes it worse. Best etc, Alice

@josephtravers777 5 лет назад

I just found out about focal hand dystonia recently after suffering w/ finger problems for 15 years. Two long rounds of PT did not help. I put my guitars in the closet for 10 years and have just started to work my way back last 3 years in much pain and aggravation. When I first had this problem I could not play guitar or bass so I switched to drumming for 3 years. The bass came back to me but I don't have the dexterity to play strenuously anymore. Same with the guitar.

@nbcnbc8252 3 года назад

Lol.... I woke up and thought of you. And of all things it's your Happy Birthday.

@Guitartzt 3 года назад

Thank you so much.

@HalJikaKick 4 года назад

I witnessed an absolutely remarkable recital in this woman living room in Princeton NJ by the German Duo Sonare. Also, Alice used to have a purse in the shape of a trout.

@Guitartzt 4 года назад

Glad you had fun at that concert. Actually my purse is a large mouth bass, and he is still intact (after 20 or so years) and working hard to keep my stuff safe.

@LaLibertéEclairantLeMonde Год назад

1 Separation between little finger and A finger is limited by the fact they have a common nerve, not common muscle. 2 The extensor muscles in the lower arm are weak by nature as the hand is designed to grab. This extensor muscle weakness creates a huge imbalance with the powerful flexors. In these 2 aspects is the main difficulty in playing musical instruments

@Guitartzt Год назад

Yes you are correct. A friend suggested that we humans are better at grabbing things and pulling them towards ourselves, than at giving them away - good illustration of the muscle imbalance issue. I suspect that flamenco players have less of an imbalance, due to all the razgueados they do, and they do often seem to be able to play further into their old age than classical players.

@LaLibertéEclairantLeMonde Год назад

@@Guitartzt Some times, when I remember I need warm up and some training, I practice arpeggios with the back of the nail like they do in razqueados. But unforgettably I started music when I was already too old and even worst I injured my left thump unnecessarily over-squeezing the guitar neck 6-8 hours falling a victim of my own poor knowledge. I now believe all musicians should learn the anatomy of the hand as part of their training and this will be very beneficial. Humans are basically tree climbers. Compared to the extensors muscles relative weakness there is a tremendous amount of power on the flexors. As opposed to the extensors only one muscle for each finger, there are two big flexor muscles for each finger! Just before they enter the wrist under the carpal tunnel ligament, which provides the main leverage, the muscles are transformed to tendons. These tendons are like ropes inside a sheath and after passing the wrist going to the fingertips one is attached to the penultimate phalanx bone and the other one (amazingly passes through a loop of the first one for extra leverage ) is attached to the last phalanx which is the tip bone. A very complex machine.

@ShahFazilVlogs 6 лет назад

Hello m'am.... Does this apply to the flamenco playing also?

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I don't think so. Flamencos do quite different things - and mostly apoyandos - and the normal flamenco position works very well for doing what they need to do - bracing the elbow near the lower bouts of the guitar and plucking against that - and doing razgueados as well of course. If a flamenco player would try to play classical pieces, then very likely there could be problems.

@ShahFazilVlogs 6 лет назад

Alice Artzt Thanks for the timely respond m'am, lots of love & best wishes on your way. Thanks again for clearing my doubts. God Bless. :)

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Glad I could help. Best etc, Alice

@hwrdthomas 6 лет назад

Very interesting watch! As an intermediate player, I better make sure my hand is in the correct position early. As far as the "others" calling others charlatans...do they not have anything better to do?

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

So glad if this was helpful to you. Best Wishes in your guitar playing. Alice

@sparrowbarnesmusic5864 6 лет назад

I have trigger finger. I believe i got it from guitar playing. My fingerpicking is self taught. So i did it how i felt was comfy. I had an operation on my finger 2 months ago but it didnt help. My finger is still stuck. Ive been learning alot from the internet. I will try the way you said on your video. I will go looking for that lady ida on internet now. See if i can learn something from her

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Good luck to you. Do check out Ida Presti, who was a true phenomenon both technically and musically, and who certainly had the most relaxed right hand technique of anyone - ever. But do bear in mind she was so relaxed and strong that she could add sorts of flourishes to her playing that are just extra decorations and not integral to her technique. You don't have to copy those.

@lexitejeda6209 6 лет назад

Sparrow Barnes, I have had trigger finger on multiple digits, and ironically it occurred during a time of my life when I had not played guitar for decades. I had surgery on 2 fingers and a thumb. Although the locking stopped on those digits, more fingers and the other thumb started to lock. I didn't have any further surgery, reasoning that although the surgery "works" it doesn't address the root cause. In my case it turned out to be hypothyroidism from Hashimoto's, and the problem has resolved since treating that with natural dessicated thyroid hormones.

@lawcch 6 лет назад

how about to use chico finger of the right hand? I try to practise the ch finger now to play scale.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

You can certainly do that if the little finger is long enough to reach the strings you want to play and the nail is strong and good enough to sound OK. But it won't necessarily help this situation I am talking about, since that finger is also very much functioning the way the m finger does - in other words the information from the brain about what to do goes to both it and to the a finger. What works well is to get the little finger working along with the a finger, as though attached to it. That strengthens the a finger's action and supports it. But if the little finger works well, try alternating it with the m finger, when needed, instead of ever alternating m and a. That should work pretty well if the little finger works well for you.

@lawcch 6 лет назад

thank you so much for the valuable feedback from you. I found that it is very difficult to control the m and ch fingers to play scale alternatively because I need to focus on the left hand fingers at the same time. Maybe I need more time for my brain to learn and control movements of those fingers on my both hands.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Try first the i and little fingers alternating, then you can try the m and little fingers alternating. But generally I think the best combination for alternating and playing linear passages or scales is just either i and m, or i and a. You need to do anythng you want to get well in easy simple exercises for long enough that the right hand pattern is on pretty automatic pilot, and does the pattern without your having to do much about it other than get it started. Have fun...

@lawcch 6 лет назад

thank you. I have experience in controlling i, ch and m and ch fingers. I think due to the unevenness and different length of the fingers for m is the longest ones.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I would suggest concentrating on alternating the i and ch fingers - not the m and ch, which is less safe and could start you having problems. Best of luck, Alice

@xpursangjock8724 3 года назад

Hi Alice...Thanks for the great video and ensuing informative comments you've made concerning the right hand issue.

@Guitartzt 3 года назад

You're very welcome.

@manudeteruel 6 лет назад

Thanks!

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

You're very welcome. Best etc, Alice

@rdubb77 4 года назад

Yes. If the distance between the top of the guitar and the bottom of the hand and wrist is too small, it will be bad news long term, especially at high levels of practice. I prefer to teach absolute beginners because if you teach them properly from the beginning, you can avoid this. I have a mantra, "set the arch, make sure the finger can swing, follow through"

@Guitartzt 4 года назад

Yes indeed - Presti and Lagoya also encouraged the teaching of total beginners so as tomake sure they'd do the right things right away and also that they would then teach other beginners correctly, even if they didn't make a career themselves

@renlute 7 лет назад

Alice Artzt is right on the money as she describes a pathology known as focal dystonia. You advertise your ignorance if you trivialize this problem or denigrate Alice's exposition as "toxic charlatanry." The charlatan is the accuser, who is clearly ignorant of hand anatomy. More than thirty years ago a guitar teacher and a piano teacher independently isolated excessive distal flexion (flexing the tip joints) as potentially ruinous to technique and careers. See the article by Dr. Frank R. Wilson in Seminars in Neurology, vol. 9 no. 2 (June, 1989), for an early reference to these insightful instructors, Patrick O'Brien (guitar) and Dorothy Taubman (piano). Watch for future issues of the Journal of the Lute Society of America for articles by or about Patrick O'Brien, where he discusses at length why distal flexion should be avoided, lest the musician lose his ability to play, as did Glenn Gould and numerous other famous pianists and guitarists.

@jmardinly 6 лет назад

Is this focal dystonia? Rey de la Torre had a problem with his 'a' finger not working, which was cured by his physical therapist before he contracted rheumatoid arthritis.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I think Rey's problem was exactly what I am talking about. But generally these days, everyone calls any problem with musician's hand "focal dystonia", so I am a bit leery of the term.

@devilhand 6 лет назад

Hello Mrs.Artzt. Could you please comment on how dangerous the picado hand position of Paco de Lucia is? His picado hand position is more or less the same as you showed. Clawed (straight knuckle joint and bent middle joint) making palm and wrist close to the soundboard.Your video confused me a lot because I copied his picado technique and I'm very worried about it now. I do feel some pain in my index finger since I’ve started practicing picado for last few months. Thank you in advance.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I took a quick look at Paco de Lucia playing TIco tico on RU-vid to see what you are mentioning. At least in that video, he is OK, particularly when doing picados.. What I see first off is that his wrist is high enough away from the top of the guitar so that he can easily clear the strings above and below the ones he is plucking (without either moving the hand up away from the guitar at each stroke or bending the tip joint to escape hitting the next lower string), and that he is mostly moving from the finger joint nearest to the palm of the hand. The middle joints of the fingers are consistently bent and are not being used to actually make the pluck. The tip joints, in the picados he starts out this piece with, are of course not being used at all, since it is rest strokes - apoyandos - he is doing. In general apoyandos are pretty safe since it is the tip joint (if it pulls up away from the guitar top and actually does much of the plucking action) that is so dangerous and usually causes most of the problems. In an apoyando, the tip joint is usually fairly relaxed or even double jointed. When he gets in a few tirando strrokes then his i finger does bend some, and that's not all that great a thing. But at least he doesn't do it much, and of course not at all in apoyandos. Paco's arm is resting solidly on the guitar - not in the traditional classical place, but still giving a good support to the stroke. Flamencos usually play mostly apoyandos (picados), and work from the joint nearest the palm of the hand (though often with a bit straighter fingers than in the video I watched), and this generally works quite well, though the straighter fingers are not so well suited to playing complicated classical pieces and counterpoint with the thumb very active, working at the same time as fingers.. But flamencos don't need to do that. I do remember Carlos Montoya (whom I knew as a young girl) saying he had to keep playing during intermissions since he'd not be able to get going again if he stopped - so he was working on adrenaline a lot. I've never known a classical performer to need to do that. I can't say what your index finger problem might be without seeing what you are doing. (Usually the i finger is the least likely to give anyone problems - usually it is the a or m fingers that start hurting or not working.) If you are doing exactly what Paco does with apoyandos in the first part of that video, it should be OK. If you want to do a Skype lesson to have me look at what you are doing when playing, I might be able to figure it out.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I looked at the other video you suggested and see he is playing apoyando (picado) - and using the knuckles nearest the palm for most of the work of plucking. Yes his wrist is pretty low, but with apolyandos that is still OK as the tip joints are protected from abuse by not being used, or even by being a bit double jointed. He has a very well trained independent thumb also - a good thing. I'd say he looks OK to me. (However if he tried playing a Bach fugue in exactly that same position, it would not work very well.) I was not suggesting you take classical guitar lessons on Skype - just that you play whatever you do on one Skype lesson so I can SEE your position and technique - what you are doing. That way, I might be able to figure out what the problem is. (I couldn't find your new comment here on RU-vid, so I hope you get this answer posted under your old question.)

@devilhand 6 лет назад

Thanks again Mrs. Artzt. I don’t know why my new comment doesn’t show up. Anyhow. I've never had a problem related with my finger or hand before. I've been playing guitar for many years without right hand techniques. I played the way that it feels right for my right hand. Recently I've paid more attention to right hand techniques in flamenco. If you say Paco's technique is OK then I'm wondering whether theres any muscle or tendon hangover during the early stages of a right hand technique based guitar playing? If yes then I will rest my i finger for a few days or weeks. I hope my fingers will get used to it over time.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Well without seeing what you are doing, I can't really say what is going on. What I can say is that when we are younger, our muscles etc can repair any damage quite readily, but with age, that becomes harder and harder. So people who play with a faulty or dangerous technique can do it for years and be OK, but eventually it catches up to them as they get older and then makes big problems. Without knowing what's going on, I'd say mostly if something hurts, then try not to do whatever that is...and for sure use the joint of the finger nearest the palm of the hand for doing any real work.

@vanessagreen3986 6 лет назад

Alice Artz is a fantastic guitarist. Ida Presti was actually a better guitarist than Segovia. I was never exposed to being trained with Presti hand position. I play with a different hand position as a result of my training. Just because a person plays with a lesser used position does not mean they are wrong. There are several excellent points made in this video. Alice Artz has a lot of good intstructional videos. Don’t close your mind because of legalistic position traditions.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Thank you for your kind words. Ida Presti was indeed a phenomenon, and I think her recordings at age 12 or 13 showed a much greater virtuosity than Segovia ever did. I was incredibly lucky to have gotten to know her and study with her - and I owe my career to her. All I can do is try to pass on as much of her insight and knowledge, and my understanding of why her ideas work so well, as I can.

@adambozentko5877 Год назад

Great explanation on this topic.. Appreciate the wisdom..!..

@Guitartzt Год назад

I'm so glad it was helpful. Anyone with this sort of problem needs to start working on reversing and curing it ASAP, as it is super dangerous if not dealt with early on.

@loremipsum7471 7 лет назад

Pianist, Byron Janis had a serious hand problem.

@Guitartzt 7 лет назад

Yes indeed - he is not the only pianist. There have been several others, some well known. And Schumann had this problem also.

@stevefulnecky4563 4 года назад

I agree with this. The medical name for the injury is called "trigger finger".

@Guitartzt 4 года назад

Yes, there are various names - the most usual medical term for musicians is focal dystonia. I tend to just describe it without getting too technical, as that seems to work better to get people to understand what's going on. This is not a new problem - Schumann had it. More recently a number of pianists have had a version of it, which has helped publicize the problem. Many guitarists and lutenists have had their careers altered or stopped by this - often not realizing that it was something with a specific physical cause, that could have been avoided - ie not just that they had some unexpected weird personal thing happen to their hand.

@zororosario 2 года назад

Wisdom, 😊 Thanks for sharing 👍

@Guitartzt 2 года назад

So glad I could help.

@gregwest6032 6 лет назад

I guess Django just wanted it more. LOL :)

@aaronocelot 3 года назад

He used a pick with his right hand, his LEFT hand was the 3-working-finger hand, so it's not really related... Classical and Flamenco vis-a-vis right-hand picado, arpeggio, etc...= essential

@jeaneloi4624 6 лет назад

Those issues can easily be fixed with Acupuncture.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

I've seen a lot of people with these problems, and I've seen them try a lot of different remedies. I've never seen anypne cured of this by acupuncture - lovely as that might be. Wish it were true. In any case, you can't abuse your body, or any part of your anatomy, for years, without consequences. Better to work in ways that your body and muscles etc are designed to work, rather than against all that.

@MunchyToy 6 лет назад

Utter, utter bollocks.

@historiareis327 6 лет назад

Those arms and hands are BIG MAMAS

@lundaralambar5122 6 лет назад

debo apurarme con el inglés para poder entender esto XC

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Sorry my Spanish is not good at all. I do hope someone can translate this for you.

@MunchyToy 6 лет назад

Yes, I understand that cases may differ from person to person but would it be uncharitable to suggest that seeking $70 p/hr from sufferers is a case of cashing in on other musicians' desperation? At one point, I completely emptied my bank account for a course of focal dystonia treatment that ultimately failed to alleviate the condition. I have travelled the length and breadth of Europe and elsewhere at great expense. Indeed, my medical notes are so extensive I could bind them in the manner of the King James bible. After so many fruitless years trying to fathom a cure, I no longer harbour any pretensions to play Bach lute suites. However, the condition still affects everyday activities such as typing at a computer keyboard or even writing freehand. Perhaps it's wishful thinking in this instance but had I discerned a method for limiting the impact of this hideous ailment I'd have revealed it without cost.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Didn't you notice that you could see this discussion free and for nothing?? If you have seen my video and, do what I suggest, it will very likely cure you. It takes a lot of time and patience, but I have helped quite a lot of people to get better - many of them just by this video. What more can I do to get this info out? Every time I have seen or heard anyone complaining about this problem, I have piped up and told them all the information I could about this condition - which I have seen in a LOT of guitarists. However I am not a billionaire - not even at all rich by any standards, after a life of touring and performing and making records etc. I no longer tour, but what I still do is teach - my only income. I charge any students I get, whether at my home studio or on Skype, $70. which is a lot less than many others charge around here, and probably a great deal less than you seem to have paid some charlatan for the course of lessons you say didn't help you. Don't blame me for that. I have encountered another guitarist in the NY area who wasted a LOT of money paying one particular person who said they would cure them and didn't. There are people around who don't know what they are talking about and charge their students a fortune. That is not my fault. I am not asking you, or anyone, to study with me - just mentioning that I do teach. Get real !!! Do you earn your living working at anything? - Do you ever mention that to people? If not, why not? Are you ashamed of what you do? I do teach, and my students seem to find I teach very well - which I should, considering the wonderful teacher I was so lucky to have - Ida Presti.

@johntuccillo8182 Год назад

i did the impossible, anyone else?

@rakka1dude184 6 лет назад

playing too hard without a plectrum is dangerous isnt it. get music injuries just like sport.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

It is not the playing too hard that makes the problems, but holding your hand in a way that forces you to use the muscles in the hand, fingers, wrist and forearm, in dangerous ways. Doing anything wrong with your body - working in ways it was not designed to do, and doing it repetitively - is always dangerous. But if you do things in ergonomic ways, and are reasonably strong, then even playing very loudly with a fair amount of repetition can be OK.

@rakka1dude184 6 лет назад

i imagine playing rasqueos is worse than triplets, because the fingers move independantly.

@Guitartzt 6 лет назад

Razgueados are not really hard or dangerous if done from the correct joints - the joints at the base of the fingers, nearest the palm of the hand. Those are completely independent - no problem.