The conflict avoidance is because we come from a warrior culture. To offend people meant you had to fight, and fighting a thousand years ago could/would mean death. That still lives on. In the Nordics we where so few that women had to help with harvests and the farm and when shit hit the fan we expected our women to fight alongside us if it was needed. Every woman and man should be able to do everything themselves. The first female president was from Island and the strong position of the women in modern Nordic society stems from this. Honor is another pillar on which the Nordic society works. If someone from the Nordics promises something they will deliver or die trying. Friendship is on the same level. You are obliged to help anyone that asks for help, which also means that asking for help is always the last resort since you do not want to be a burden to others. (There is a whole thing about living in an extreme climate that can kill you within ours and the fact that farms where placed very far from each other. Sometimes hours away.) Culturally we are more like the Japanese than a southern or eastern European Look at the Nordics with this view and you will understand us much easier..
Hm i didn't know this. Curious where you heard this? That there were so few men during the viking age that women had to help out more? Or that we were so violent that even the people who weren't vikings killed off each other..?
I'm not sure about the "offending someone means fight to the death". Sounds like a myth. Duels have been common in several cultures but i'm not sure if it relates to our conflict avoidance. The whole "women fighting alongside men" is also probably a myth. Shieldmaidens are present in our Sagas. Not blaming you thought. These are common misunderstandings.
As a Swede, I approve this message. I've never heard it framed like this before, with the whole warrior culture but it makes sense. But that *should* be true for almost all of Europe. I mean some regions have seen perpetual war.
How genuine and honest Irena is!!! I really really enjoyed listening to you guys. I feel like I really understand her. I moved to Sweden 2 years ago alone as a 24-year-old girl and I could resonate a lot with Irena. Wish I could have a friend like her to share these thoughts with.
So happy you liked it! It's important for me to feature people who are honest about their experiences, since we know it can be difficult moving abroad. Hang in there!
I'm really dissapointed with the podcast. Irena just trew bunch of negative stereotipes about how Ukrainians are unfriendly/don't smile, etc. And how awful and weird our dating culture is. I live in Ukraine and I saw bunch of different dating scenarios from 50/50 to men providing or women providing. It's also funny how first Irena menthions that she finds it weird, that men is paying + acting as a gentelman expecting woman to follow gender role, and then 5 minutes later we hear a story, where she expects men to make an extra efford in order to meet with her. Funny
Nobody hates ukrainians more then ukrainians who moved abroad and now feel that in order to be "European" they have to despise everything slavic from culture to history.
There is a deep conversation to be had here, about this dichotomy, many, many women in the West 'suffer' from this, as in they want to eat both slices of the cake. Men are also confused, maybe even more confused. What do women say the want? What do they want? What would they actually be happy with. This water has been made very muddy and the only way to win is to get dirty and have serious and honest conversations about it but that can be exhausting when one side is eating both slices of the cake, so to speak.
Aksel Sandemose was born in Denmark 1899 and died 1965. From he was around 30 he lived in Norway and wrote in Norwegian. Janteloven is from a novel called "En flyktning krysser sitt spor" ("A refugee crosses his path").
Some little corrections here : 1.Language barrier. That's "closennes" is simply a language barrier from Ukrainians point of view. A lot of Ukrainians are ashamed of not speaking English. More accurately doing mistakes in the speech and hence they want to leave uncomfortable conversation ASAP. 2. Ukraine's people are very different depending on which city we are talking about. Kyiv is always in the rush, Lviv is very touristic and though very opened, Odesa is a city of jokes and humor so people are likely to respond if they see you're no danger and they are confident with their language or under 25 y. o. age 3. Smile and opennes in a lot of cases are signals that you like sb and that sb has to respond one it's received. It's simply a part of flirting process, but you do not want to flirt with everybody, do you? It's still common to flirt offline in Ukraine and meet people this way.
I agree about it being difficult making friends with norwegian adults. I'm fully Norwegian but childhood stuff did that I lost my friends and I have trouble making new real friends. I have a few but we don't have any contact anymore. Back when I had a job, before getting sick, I always got "stuck" with the "foreigner". I learned a lot of their culture and when I say I got "stuck" it means no one else made friends with them, it was always me, and I even learned one of them to drive, the person was a bad driver and had to learn by driving a lot. It was really good to be friends with them, but unfortunately we don't have contact anymore. One of the persons that I was friends with was a muslim and told me that they had a little kind of Christmas as their children was actually born in Norway and was actually Norwegians and they wanted them to feel like they were like the other kids. I think eastern europeans are nice people in general, maybe cause I look like one too. A lot of people actually has mistaken me for being from Ukraine or Poland or some other countries and also talked to me in their language. Actually back in school I was friends with two people from Poland and we had contact for a while, but life happened and we lost contact, but it's true, I always make friends with the foreigner. 😊 I think some of the girls from eastern Europe or south eastern Europe can be a little demanding in how they want their boyfriend to be and that he always will be the one to pay and such, but maybe it's just the few I met, or maybe it's the culture differences.
1:07:20 At least regarding climate it's so much easier for people who love warm weather and beaches, because almost the entire planet is hot, and there are endless coastlines. Meanwhile, there are so few cool places. Even Siberia gets hot in the summer. I so much want to get to central Sweden and never have to go to southern countries again. I sweat at 21° from just walking in a thin shortsleeved unbuttoned shirt and have to rely on rehydration solutions at 25°+ 😢
Thank you for the conversation, girls! It was very interesting. I live in Norway and dating and it is tough. Big hello to Irena! Thank you for openness.
I'm an Icelandic man closing in on 40 (omg, it feels scary writing that lol) who's lived about half of my life in Norway at this point. It was very interesting to hear Irena's perspective.
Such an interesting person! I'll go look up her podcast! Maybe interview her again more on the polyglot story and her experience with different cultures/ countries. Super interesting. And thank you for making these interviews. I'm intrested in language and cultural differences so I really like conversations like this. Not just on dating, although that seems to reflect pretty well cultural differences in general.
Thank you! Yes, my goal with these is to focus on cultural differences as they relate to connection with one another. And dating is just a small part of it.
Hmm, interesting take from a vey nice and verbal woman. I'm more like her than a typical norwegian in my verbalness, but if I should try to explain norwegian/scandinavian mentality, it is this: We are much more DOERS than TALKERS. We make and keep friends by doing things together, like hiking, hunting in the wild, sauna-bathclub, sports, a thousand things. WE hardly say many words, maybe just some grunts (:-)), but we really enjoy our company together.
There is a drinking problem in Norway and yes i do think its a huge problem, that one has to be drunk to be themselves or let loose is really worrisome. That leaves a society of people who don't know how to deal with life or the fall out of one and are so careful of worrying about others they are afraid to be themselves.
Thank you for this interesting conversation, I really enjoyed it. I am an ethnic Norwegian and I can relate to a lot of what you were saying and I respect your points of view. I am into deeper converations also, I love that and I am not very good at small talks... Anyway, you are what/who you are the both of you and you are both honest and charming and intelligent women. I hope to hear more from you... We should, by the way, maybe forget about always to focus on differences and discuss more about the similarities. After all we are all human beings and expectations often creates unexpected results and reactions. It's important to see things as they really are without judging, to accept and most importantly to know yourself...
Sir with all honesty all I can say is that with the fact that many Norwegians don't even try to make friends with people outside of their country or willing to talk with foreigners I feel is really concerning. Humans are by nature social creatures, one should not have to drink to be able to be themselves or have some sense of false courage or what we call "liquid" courage ie alcohol to be able to connect with people, that is just not normal nor healthy. I am sure for older people its different because its a been there and done that already but the younger generation doing these things is very concerning. Like being different is not ok, that looking different is not ok. I am trying to figure out what the rest of the world has in common with scandinavians when there is such a high degree of individuality is focused on that being with a foreigner causes people some kind of phobia. Like that is weird and when the rest of the world interaction is a requirement in their countries.
I find that Norwegians aren't as filosophical compared to Eastern European, that's probably what you're missing. Also, Norwegians are reeeaaaaallly not used to getting feedback on how their culture is, compared to other cultures, and any feedback feels like a critisism. I say they, even though I'm a Norwegian myself😅, but I've been able to view Norway from abroad after being an expat for 15 years. The frustration coming back to and communicating with Norwegians is real😂 I keep saying if I win the lotto, I'm moving😅 While living abroad (USA) I only had one American friend, and a whole bunch of foreign friends as we were all in the same boat.
I was talking to an ukrainian at work the other day. She asked me what party i voted for. I was surprised she would ask me that and told her i prefer to keep that to myself. Yes, we avoid certain topics that might start an argument.
I don’t think that was a limiter on the friendship from her swedish friend. When people complain about stuff in their life, then there is 3 different things they can need. They can need help to solve the problem. They can need emotional support. They just need to tell it to someone. Unless anything else is shared I would normally assumed it was the third thing. They just need to tell it to someone.
Scandinavia is a "young" culture , rural village with heavy modernism and individualism on top. We "prove" our moderinity and individuliasm constantly as it is top priority. Just like in a small rural old village one do not talk sensitive things with strangers. Only when you get close to someone you can talk about ...more than "everyday things". Eastern Europeans living in Stockholm I have noticed are way more spiritual and like deep sensitive things. As a Scandinavian I never pry into others ...big personal sphere and ignore even if they do it to me (unless I want to talk abut which means they, we or me are way to drunk typically). One whould feel obliged to answer but as you realise it is just talk never deep or risky unless we are already close or the issue is forced (family, work...). I have never lived long abroad outside Sweden but met a lot of foreigners. I understand our culture is a bit extreme but as it is the norm here it is hard to change your behaviour. Making new friends is something you typically do in certain situations, at school, through family, if your reloacte very young, when you have very young children... You are very right in that bother others is a bit of a ..phobia almost. Being self sufficiant is very key. To say "I am not ok at all it is so bad" is like saying I am barley able to be self sufficiant. Even if everything is XXXX I only burden my closest people with that.
Norwegians can be quite shallow, that is to say in social settings. And if you go against that and start talking about your interests and state your opinions about stuff, they will label you as a complainer. Being critical is frowned upon.
@@decollector95 Good question! It is accepted to be critical of those who go against the norm. But not being critical against the system, for the most part!
I'm not from the north of Norway, I've barely even ventured north of Trondheim, but I've never heard that they're warmer or friendlier in the north. If anything, those suicide statistics that were mentioned, coupled with higher rates of alcoholism are typically skewed towards the northern parts of the country, where it's much colder and darker all year round 😅
I can tell you why people don't stop on street to be interviewed and it's not related to communism. We have plenty of people who come here just to record streets, people and ask stupid questions hoping to earn few dollars on it. Give me one reason why I should help one with that. It's like begging. And begging is illigal. You need money? Go to work.
she has a lot if male energy... Thats why she fits in norway/Scandinavian weird reversed gender roles .. , but good for her she is in the right place 😊😊👌👌
The origins of the Janteloven is from a book that satirises this 'Nordic' mentality by creating a fictional town of 'Jante' where the inhabitants are so stuck up that they have codified the rules. There is huge irony in that this book has become sort of a self-reinforcement mechanism of this mindset. I think however that these 'laws' are about to die out over time due to a general increase in narcissism due to pressures from social media.
Irena, have you tried asking the deeper questions yourself? Don't put the responsibility on others to go deeper. Maybe you just want to talk about yourself? Why not ask questions? Even the example you gave is someone asking you a question. And then the host complains about someone asking her instead of her asking hahaha You both seem like you have poor social skills.
Janteloven: You should not think of yourself as better than anyone else. That's why we don't interfere with people's private lives and matters. You foreigners are just " yapping " about things you don't understand. Funny to hear from a person living here for so long to not get it.
Well, formal marriage is a questionable thing any time, but they had a relationship, so the formal marriage was for burocratic convenience. As she mentioned, it was the only way back then to live together uninterupted. So I suppose sambo visas didn't exist back then (actually, I am not sure if they have those in Norway now - I only know about Sweden).
@@floro7687 regarding Sweden, marriage doesn't have much formal value (regarding visas and such). Living together is important, so there is no "marriage" visa, only sambo visa. You apply online, then pass an interview in your country (if you already live together in Sweden, you have to leave, go to your country and pass the interview there). Your Swedish partner gets an interview in Sweden. Then 6 to 18 months you wait for the decision. You can visit Sweden only on usual terms during this time, on separate visas. When the decision is made and is positive, you have to go to your country again (even if you are in Sweden on a tourist or other visa), receive the sambo visa from the Swedish embassy in your country - and only then you can enter Sweden properly and stay there.
How can you have lived there for 13 years and have 0 friends? :p I mean seriously, you might wanna consider that others isn't the problem at that point....
She has said she made no Norwegian friends. Focus on Norwegian. Maybe consider moving to Scandinavia and try making friends first yourself before making these comments.
@@lashforbates I also missed the point could you explain it further? 26:30 You explained that a friend is someone you have done an activity together in the past and that you now take an interest in their life and keep updated via direct correspondence. I do not understand how being Norwegian excludes them from this simple criteria. Having listened to it, I also formed the opinion that this was a you issue, rather than a them issue. The lack of Norwegian friends is not a reflection of Norwegian society but a mirror of your personality.
It’s your interpretation of my words, of course. But no, being Norwegian doesn’t exclude a person from being my friend. I know a lot of other people who don’t have Norwegian friends either and a lot of people who do, it’s kinda 50/50. Does it mean that all those who don’t have an issue, like me? I don’t think so. Actually I don’t see it as a huge problem of not having Norwegian friends. My friends in Oslo come from all over the world and that’s also fun.
@@datingbeyondborderscast No need to move, lived in Norway for 38 years now. Ethnic Norwegian with friends from Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Iran, France etc... Seems to me like she wants Norwegians to try becoming her friend, so she won't have to put in the effort... If she really wanted Norwegian friends and put in the effort she would have had them by 13 years of living there 😂
in 2008, or 2009 I was in Ukraine and I met an American tourist who told me that his friend, Irina, I believe she was called was gonna start a dejting site in Norway for Norwegian men who wanted to meet Ukrainian women. I wonder if it is that site you met on perhaps
It isn't just the Ukrainians. An American perspective here: splitting the grocery bill with your spouse/partner is insane. It is just that. There arent two ways about it.
I think it is better for women to initiate everything relatate to romance and intimacy. I can approach women and have a nice conversation, develop sympathy and even cuddle as friends, but out of respect I don't experience sexual desire for the woman because it can be tiresome for women to feel being wanted. I wait for some indication from the woman that she is interested in intimacy - and only then turn my mind towards sexual desire.
Where I live there are a few people from Ukraine. and I will tell you where as well Skedsmokorset. I do in fact talk to them, but I am introvert.. or? I do talk to the people sitting on the bus .. even after a fising trip and stink of fish... But there is one woman that is for me. insanly beautiful. And I never dared to say hello. She probably moved. Shame on me
Regardless.. that feeling .. even at my age wich is 50. I look at her and it hurts I would guess she is maybe 35 . I know it is not love. But it could have been if I had Ukraine balls LOL
Regarding small talk: There's no point trying to have a real conversation with women; They just get angry and shut down whenever they hear an unsanctioned opinion. I can discuss music, fashion, architecture, literature, history, etc. if a women happens to be interested in that, but anything "deep" is reserved for male-only spaces. My impression however is that what women consider deep conversation is just talking about themselves, which is narcissism, and any man who goes along with that is really just trying to get laid.
What’s do you mean by “deep” conversation? You can have deep conversation within all of the topics you listed. Isn’t it the depth of conversation, rather than the topic, that actually matters.
I like the host's attitude to gender roles. However Tinder in Scandinavia is also very take, take, take with the woman not bringing anything to the table unfortunately.
She had an intelligent, rich, good looking man and wouldn't even put on a dress for him, once. Luckily he was smart and cut his losses immediately. That man deserved better.
Although I can appreciate Scandinavian men culturally they seem rude to me I am Lithuanian. I think generally people in those countries a little bit up their arse ☺️
She is done . Already too much " experienced" . Not young anymore. Because of experience too much entitlement . Not able to feel any deeper feeling toward anybody because of experiences. So she will find guys for short moments but not for love and marriage Btw - makeup is horrible. Much better is to see woman without any makeup
Would you say this if she was a man? You are being sexist and judgmental. Any man would be very lucky to have such an intelligent woman who has travelled the world and learned lots of languages. What have you done?
@@lashforbatesShe cant change attitude. It is late. She is "used" too much. She will almost always find a Guys to have sex with, but that is it. Nothing more.
Jeez.. I thought these comments were only reserved for the TikTok reels crowd. Someone is allowed to live their life, date, marry, divorce and continue dating. It's called life.
@@datingbeyondborderscast Yes it is a life like anything when you are alive. Whatsoever. So she can live for sure. I am just saying that she is not considered as valuable woman which deserve and can feel real love. Even you can think whatever you like and even complain how nature is unfair and men are unfair - but despite complaint the reality will remain same
Heres one for you for not having opinions as a Norwegian and afraid to offend anyone i live rural and i say the most crazy things. If it was posted online id be cancelled. On political stuff i cannot stand Oslo soon there arent norwegians at all there. Im firmly NO to mass immigration, and the lbtq stuff. Gender ideology cant type that much or else it gets auto removed. Just lets say for this im against alot of it. Also the long month of rainbows nah not for me seems kinda wierd. Last longer then Christmas and Summer holiday combined. Make it a weekend or so
Norway have much corruption, have been a problem for a long time. Not everybody have money to travel out of the country, the social diffrences are getting bigger.
