Legendary Catch as Catch Can coach Billy Robinson visits the Mushin Self Defense Gym in Bountiful Utah for the Scientific Wrestling Audit. He shares with us his version of the "Kimura" or Double Wrist Lock as it would be called in Wigan.
The Japanese didn't call it a Kimura, they called it the Ude Garami. The name Kimura came from the Gracies, who named it in honor of Kimura, who broke Helio's arm with it.
@@rodneycampbell2030 Yes. It's intentional since Catch also relies on reactions from the opponent. Wrestlers often place intentional discomfort on their opponents in this style like "sawing" or pressing a knee on top of someone's head so they can move them out of a defensive position. Even when securing a hold, a Wrestler will have the opponent tied up or hooked in 2 different ways (uncomfortably) before securing the finishing hold.
@@catchwrestler3532 almost. you forgot the kicks. so instead of boxing put thai boxing. By the way, this is exactly the combination taught by the GSP coach and John Jones and many others.
Yeah or u can just learn a jujutsu koryu( the real samurai ones) and properly study, before anyone say I'm a weeb and shit I do find some techniques really good and not found in other places and some counter tricks are really good do look up if u haven't seen before u rant
I love all the catch guys, they're so sadistic when demonstrating lol. I've seen a lot of Japanese guys demo and torture guys lol I want to train some catch. I'm a BJJ Blue Belt
double wrist lock is actually more effective if yo look at it from just a functional anatomy point of view. catch wrstling teaches to put their thumb in their armpit, this makes makes the triceps passively insufficient, meaning when you do this you are stretching the tricep muscle because it inserts at the elbow. the function of the tricep is to extend the arm so by increasing the angle of elbow flexion by putting the thumb in the armpit it makes it way harder for the person to extend the elbow.
also, when you put the thumb in the armput it increases elbow flexion range of motion which the biceps are responsible for, so when you do this the biceps are now actively insufficient, meaning, they are already maxed on out their range of motion, they have nowhere else to go so even when the person tries to contract, the muscle is already too shortened to do anything. so the triceps are passively insufficient (stretched to its limit), biceps are actively insufficient (muscle shortened too its limit). I do think that in terms of finishing once you have the arm behind the back, move it now to around a 90 deg angle the way bjj tends to finish it. finishing it this way prevents the shoulder from internally rotating.
The Ude garami is part of the Katame no Kata ( Kansetsu waza section) which is known to have been established in the 1880s. Thought to have beene years of 1884 or 1885 is usually cited. So if Gotch showed him anything, Kimura may have just nodded politely, but he most definitely understood the double wrist lock long before her ever met Gotch, or visited Wigan.
Brandon, Brian, it must have hit you guys when Mr Robinson passed on this year. You had a great privilege getting to know him and train with him and you served to bring him to the attention of a lot of people through your vids. Commiserations. CameronQ
Jesus, they're laughing and stretching the shit out of this practice dummy. The price of learning. Reminds me of an old pressure points class I once took.
@clipophile I'm a big fan of both sakuraba and royce! what sakuraba has done is amazing and i'll always admire him. Royce is great too...showing his warrior spirit in the early UFC events. I would have liked to see sakuraba fight royce in submission grappling (no-gi)...
Billy Robinson is one of those unsuspecting old timers, that if some jabroni tried to mug him or something and Billy get's ahold of a limb, you're dead
Having seen his hay day some four decades ago, it's a bit sad to see him looking sort of frail. He confessed in his autobiography that he suffered drinking problem for years. Hope he will live long. Still a great wrestler.
@xbm I know what your sayig but remember judo didnt begin to evolve till the late 1800s judo isnt even 160 years old. Old style samurai ju jitsu was hundreds of years older.
“Wrestling’s been doing the double wrist lock for a thousand years” jujutsu is around a thousand years old and the ude-garami existed far before judo ever met catch
I think someone as experienced and legendary in Catch as Billy Robinson knows the exact pressure to use and what does damage. Besides he's doing a demonstration so he can just ease off the hold without losing position to start over again.
@zaphbrannigan The Double Wrist lock seems to have potentially three points of attack depending on the grip used--the forearm, the elbow and the shoulder.
@chiconspiracy By that logic, they catch guys also "discovered" it. In fact, that's how human society works, we stand on the shoulders of the giants of the past. Nowadays, we have to wait until the copyright lapses, but it's done in the same way.
It seems like more mixed martial artists than Josh Barnett should be using catch wrestling as the base for their ground game. What makes it less attractive for MMA? is it more limited in some way?
@xbm There are European manuscripts from the renaissance that show a bent armlock like the Double Wrist Lock, that predate Europes first entry into Japan by a hundred years. It's very possible though that similar moves are discovered independently of each other since there are only a certain number of ways to hyper extend or hyper rotate a limb.
@xbm Alot of these catch as catch can moves were developing in the late 1700s-1800s to be more precise catch even has even older influences that go back as far as the Roman period in great britain.
@kempobrad not really, these arent just hypothetical questions, representatives of martials have versed each other in no rules/ modified rules situations. its not true to say that its a rock-paper-scisor situation. in gracies in action you see the gracies competing against challengers from many different backgrounds. similarly you can watch the evolution of styles in mma - certain styles did noticably better when put to the test - kick boxing, wrestling and jiu jitsu were the 3 standouts
what i dont understand about catch wrestling is how it has become so under represented in todays grappling world. the founder of BJJ and one of the greatest ever judoka; Maeda (sp?) was beaten frequently whilst wrestling in the uk. what happened to this proud, champion level, wrestling?
@Azrael561 Well, if you want to get historical about it, they had wrestling in Egypt and Babylon long before the rise of Greece. Just like Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics probably influenced Greek math it's very likely that the wrestling traditions of those cultures influenced pankration as well. Wrestling goes back a long time in Mesopotamia, even being mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Giving all the credit to Greece for inventing catch seems a bit Eurocentric.
@Amarksyhk Well, BJJ calls it a Kimura, because they learnt it from the Judoka Kimura. Some Judo guys 'might' have learnt the DWL from actch wrestlers, and Maeda travelled the globe for challenge matches. But it's such a simple concept, most grappling arts probably have their own version of it. I don't mind Billy's grouchyness, it's funny imo.
@Sersons Even before Pankration. There are Egyptian hieroglyphs of wrestling moves that predate what we know from Greece. I reckon before the first caveman threw a punch at another guy, he probably pounced on him first.
Surely not how I learned this technique. Calling something a double wrist lock and it actually being one is a totally different story. I read an email with my own eyes that my coach and friend got from both of these men thanking him for his new series so they could study it and add it to their content. In terms of bjj these guys are blue belts possibly purple. Go to Chicago if you want to learn from the best.
this is amazing i have friends in wigan and alot of them seem to be great submission wrestlers and i didnt know why but there seems to be a long tradition of submission wresling in the area.
Yes. If you want to promote a style where he participants are brutal to each other, it's going to remain a small group. Also, many of these Catch guys try to promote their art as being something superior to Judo, or BJJ. Billy seemed to insinuate that BJJ players are not as competent as his boys because they are too gentle, or something similiar. My experience training with my instructor gives me the impression that he could be quite brutal in his application of locks.
those moves are classic jiu-jitsu moves except for that elbow in the shoulder. maybe all grapplers around the world invented the same moves independently
TheSmithersy You have absolutely no evidence that wresting was doing it "before" jujutsu. The Gracies did not invent jujutsu (they never even learned jujutsu) and the gyaku ude-garami existed in jujutsu long before Masahiko Kimura used it to defeat Helio Gracie. There is ample bullshit to go around on all sides, it seems, with both making up history to suit their own needs.
i would think that's likely. human anatomy works the same everywhere. you can see some throws and locks in medieval combat treatises and going back to ancient Rome with depictions on pottery and such
ManifoldSky The words judo and ju jitsu were interchangeable in Japan. The Gracie's learned from a Japanese judoka who was doing pro wrestling. The inovation for the Gracie's lies in the GI.
