An awful lot, it what it says. Sometimes I wish that a singer whose work that I really adore would get this attention, since s/he gets little of any kind. How about the case of Stuart Burrows? One of the really lovely voices of this wicked world, and people just pass over him. Such singing deserves more!
Yeah, I think that you're right about that. Stuart Burrows perhaps was a bit too civilised and elegant for his own good so far as attaining superstar status like that was concerned. Maybe he was more like the best possible Lieder-recitalist singer, utterly exquisite but defitinitely with a voice that could project operatically, rather than an electrifying, power-house opera star born to the style to a sufficient degree to hobnob with the spinto and dramatic stars like Corelli, Bergonzi, et al., like Carreras or Aragall. Stuart Burrows, though, is my secret pleasure whom I treasure right along with those big guys! @@djquinn4212
Nicolai Gedda made it, though, even if Stuart Burrows did not. I saw Gedda a lot on stage, and his voice was rapturously lovely, just edgy enough to carry heroically, and powerful enough, even if not so super-abundantly so as the likes of Corelli or Bergonzi. WHat a supreme artist, too. Gedda and Burrows, yum!
@@geraldparker8125 Yah, you watch Gedda and he knew how to play to the crowd. The Faust performance where he has his cane in one hand and has hat in the other and rears back and launches the C the in Salut….he was a showman when he wanted to be.
I have lost track of the number of CDs I have purchased based on your reviews, often with musical excerpts. These companies are shooting themselves in the foot by harassing free advertising for their products. They are not advertising Orlando de Lassus at half-time of football games.
I think RU-vid is heading for a class action lawsuit since they just harass content creators based on often frivolous and at times fraudulent copyright claims. As far as I know, they don’t pay out for the time monetization is deactivated for false claims.
It's weird, isn't it? I'm sure Dave knows the truth but if I were responsible for a recording company I would complain about the use of other company's CDs, not my own, assuming the relative review was positive. If the review is negative then fair enough but generally Dave plays CDs as part of a recommendation or at least good example of the piece.
From what I understand almost all copyright strikes are bots and often not even from the labels but instead various rights societies or other groups that somehow have a relation to the recording or one that sounds like it.
It's so beautiful when you reach the territory of maturaty in the appreciation of any branch of art. Everything is lighter, happy and joyful. Thanks David.
I’m watching from Japan and I love watching your videos! In Japan, Furtwängler is extremely popular and before I watched your videos I was a member of the so called “Furtwängler cult” After watching your videos I was shock to hear many conductors I’ve never heard of! I hope I can absorb as much recording as I can. I’m always looking forward for your excellent reviews! Take care!(Sorry for my bad English…)
I kept my sanity re. Furtwängler, luckily, because I did not undervalue his studio recordings, especially from post-war on E.M.I. Those are clearly recorded enough to justify what one claims for them, without sounding like some deluded cultist having to imagine-in much of what they claim to hear and what they praise. Also, if you like Furty, you really should adore Dr. Klemps (Klemperer). Where Furtwängler thrives, Klemper rules supreme a whole lot incontestably. However, then there are Bruno Walter and Konwitschny to contend with also. Plus, I really do like best of all, most of the time, highly rhythmic and energetic guys like Leonard Bernstein (of his Boston and New York City years), Thomas Schippers, and other sheer human dynamos of their irresistible kind. That broadly based, Furty just had to fall into line for consideration along with all of those others and more. @@DavesClassicalGuide
Just had the chance to listen to Currentzis "conducting" his own Utopia Orchestra of hand-selected obviously very talented musicians in Tchaikovsky's Fifth. My God, he brought down the house, meanwhile what I heard and saw was an agonizingly dancing dervish (just wondering how the orchestra could play it at all almost without actual conducting!) without the slightest sense of architecture, having not the slightest clue where to drive, just stumbling from one climax to the other keeping no spares for the real ones, other times stall the whole process almost to stop it...and yet, the audience loved it! My number one candidate for your list for sure.
There's video of a Celibidache rehearsal out there where for a split second the camera pans to a violinist (and Sigourney Weaver's lookalike) rolling her eyes, chewing gum, and splitting a rage tremolo. To his credit, listening to his live recordings did teach me a respect for Bruckner, namely to slow down to a different pace of thinking. If listening to Celibidache taught me one sentence, it's "You're gonna be here for three weeks, nothing will change that, so stop struggling and accept it."
I belonged to a Bruckner Facebook group. Someone asked, “What do you feel when listening to the first movement of Bruckner’s 6th?” I said “boredom”. That person replied, “you are lacking a soul”. This was typical of the group. I eventually got tired of the knee-jerk fanaticism and left the group.
Yeah, aren't those Brucknerites a colossal pain-in-the ass? And they are so freaking bossy about it all. Despite all of their protestations, one has to wonder if they really are hearing all that they claim to, in Bruckner's turgid productions.
Yeah, those Facebook groups can be a bit of a trial. i grow weary of the posts that profess their opinions as objective fact and the arguments devolve into something akin to "who would win in a fight, Furtwängler or Jochum?"
And for some reasons the Brucknerites tend to have Mahler inferior complex. I'm always puzzled by why if Bruckner is such a visionary composer like what they claim (and I don't object to this idea since Bruckner is one of my favs), then Mahler has to be less modern, less forward looking, less competent than Bruckner.
My goodness, I have headache even thinking about it. It wouldn’t even need him to say that it is bad. It is enough to unleash the madness if he just says "it is good but I prefer another pianist" or "I like it but this or that pianist played it better" And it wouldn’t matter if preferred pianist is Rubinstein, Argerich or Richter etc.
I'm every bit as inspired, exhilarated, stimulated, even a few times irritated, as everybody else, but, judging from quite a few commentaries, deep in my heart I'm convinced, that some day someone ought to make a video about the 'Hurwitz-cult'! 😁
Sigh, I know what you mean about that weirdo, Celibidache, but, oh! that fabulous, extraordinary, glowingly beautiful recording of Cherubini's "Anacréon" overture that he made. That 78 rpm. disc alone would justify his existence!
" I have the Jochum Bruckner set" " and? Dont tell me that's the only one you own?" " it's the only complete.set. I have individual symphonies by other conductors" " maybe you would find a beginning group more in keeping with your present level of Bruckner knowledge"
@DavesClassicalGuide I burn, but as you rightly say, Bruckknerites are rather nice and polite. Most look like they live in the parents basement. Never seeing the sun, listening to Bruckner all day.amd night, it's surprising they aren't even weirder. On a Bruckner night with the CSO you could hear a pin drop. Quietest live audience possible. Woe unto anyone who coughed or whispered during the slow movement!
Makes sense that Furtwangler and Celibidache would be 1 and 2, both cults tend to ascribe magical powers to their idols. If they do something lousy, then the followers believe that there is some "hidden spark of genius" and grasp at straws to identify it. I saw Celibidache and Munich in Chicago in the 1980s with Bruckner, it was an impressive performance, but the endless solo bows at the end for orchestra principals and strange mystical atmosphere (his cult was alive and well back then in Chicago) made me feel a little creeped out. Was happy to see my next concert with Solti.
The Historically Informed Performance (HIP) cult, especially relating to baroque music, is beyond nasty. They don't just disapprove of baroque music played on modern instruments by talented artists, they want such performances banned outright and, so far, have generally succeeded in doing so. Thank God I started listening to baroque music (my first venture into classical music) before the HIP movement turned into an intolerant cult, otherwise I probably wouldn't be listening to classical music today. (note that my comment is not directed at discussions on this channel)
The very first classical music composer I was aware of was Vivaldi. I have already listened to a HIP performance of some of his Op. 4 concerti before that and I hated it (of course back then I had no ideas about all these HIP craps, I just hated the sound). But then RU-vid recommended me Heinz Holliger's Vivaldi oboe concerti with I Musici. And what followed was a slow journey from Vivaldi all the way to the 21st cen people. Without I Musici I would have never engaged myself deeply in classical music.
To be fair, there have been some pretty decent period instruments baroque ensembles. For example, Collegium Aurium, La Petite Bande, The English Concert, Capella Savaria are a few that come to mind. They play (or are made to play) with verve and musical taste. The object of any good music performance should be to make the music sound good, not to foist some cockamamie (and often unmusical) idea of how the music "should" have sounded like 300 years ago on the music listening/buying public.
Just listen to how Toscanini conducted Vivaldi (not much of that composer's music, alas, but, wow, what he did was stupendous. So, it sounds almost Beethovenian that way. Well, GOOD!!! It sounds great so modern and so Beethovenian instead of merely cute and quaint. Actually, though, the 1940s and 1950s were my favourite era for recordings of Baroque music, stylish and expressive and lean and, well, just wonderful. The prissiness that sets in with the execrable HIP movement is musically criminal. @@phamthanh4785
I sympathise greatly regarding your gripe with the music industry, and I have always "white-listed" our music assets for use in your wonderfully eloquent videos (meaning that you are free to use as much of them as you want without any copyright claims). That process is made thorny by RU-vid (Google) and we suffer from many similar problems.
Dave, after reading "Beethoven or Bust" back in 2002 or so, I've been using Classics Today (now with Insider privileges) for about 20 years now give or take. Yuja Wang IS really adorable but dang, with your hand on the lever over the Gorge of Classical Music Peril .... maybe it's best not to comment sometimes? 😏 But I get it. Substance. At any rate, keep up the great work. You're my go-to for all the hijinks that goes on in the realm of Classical Music, but especially for your unbiased, honest (and often funny) reviews. Thanks for your work!
Reflecting on my experience of live concerts conducted by Sergiu Celibidache (I attended nine of the 99 concerts he gave in Spain), I must admit that he was like no other conductor. However, not once did he drive me to tears, which is something that other musicians have done to me in the concert hall. Zubin Mehta, for instance, is pure electricity, scoring 2 out of 7 as far as tears are concerned in my experience. If the proof is in the pudding (my perception as my yardstick), I guess the Celibidache pudding was unlike any other but didn't quite do the trick.
May I add a second comment, this time in relation to John Wilson. I, like many people in the UK, became aware of him though some excellent BBC Proms concerts in which his brilliant orchestra and some top class, generally American, singers performed his arrangements of musicals and film scores. He clearly has a wonderful way with orchestral sound. He has indeed more recently made some fine CDs. However, there have latterly been some less impressive readings of more significant works, if I may call them that, with pick-up orchestras. Maybe I should classify them as large scale orchestral works which didn't require his talent for arrangement. He is a fine conductor but his supporters need to recognise even he has human limitations.
Dave, you have been ON FIRE the past few weeks with fantastic topics for your talks. This one is a hoot. Your informed opinion based on a lifetime of listening and reflecting on what you have heard is absolutely to the point when making critical judgments. More power to you! Have you seen the hype around the release of the “lost” 1980s Ravel concerto recording with Michelangeli and Celibidache? I would love to see your review of it.
Yeah, topics like these are so much fun to follow. I could suggest "secret sins" types to love for pleasure, "pet performers", and that ilk. For instance, I still love and cherish all of those recording of Edward Kilenyi junior (on Remington and other bargain labels), which are so delectably straightforward and joyfully, vigourously accessible and zesty. Does anyone else wtill remember and value Kilenyi? (His father, the "senior", before him, was no slouch, either!)
Oh, wow, Mickey, I'm not alone. I am glad that I admitted my liking for the junior Kilenyi, just to know that others can express such views, too. There is just something, as you must feel, too, about Kilenyi's playing of Chopin and Liszt, for example, that is so "right", so natural that one does not even need to explain why. It just is what it is. I've listened to Chopin's études as Kilenyi plays them countless times and always felt so refreshed at how sane and alert, but never eccentric in any way they sound as Kilenyi plays them. (I feel much that way also about Novaes' playing of these works.) The same goes for Schumann's "Carnaval". Kilenyi's way with Chopin's waltzes is a bit roughhouse, but, heck, this is idealised dance music, after all. It's a-okay with me. It is not that Kilenyi's way is my all-time favourite way to hear the music that he recorded, but it definitely is one of the manners in which I like to hear that music, to experience it. It always has been so. @@MickeyCoalwell
David, I enjoy your videos and appreciate your honesty. We will all have our favorites ,and , as you know bitchers will always be with us. Please press on.
So glad to have found your videos. You have introduced me to many new composers and compositions. Thank you for that and for your wonderful insight. I am likely one of the biggest Percy Grainger advocates you will encounter. While I LOVE the videos you have done about his “Jungle Book”, I have not heard you mention the legendary recordings of Frederick Fennell on Mercury. I would truly love to hear your take on that (even if you think it’s trash😂). Thanks!
Given my lifelong ambition to be the most annoying human being in existence, I was excited to find myself a member of many of your cults. Bruckner? Obviously. I'm a proud member of the Celi cult, but only when he plays Bruckner. I'd probably drink cyanide if so commanded by the divine Yuja. Haven't heard Mäkelä in Sibelius, but his Leningrad symphony is really good. As for Furtwangler's Nazi 9th -- jeez, that's tough. The sonics are just so damned awful. It's like trying to judge a mural by looking at a 50 square pixel thumbnail. What about the Mahler sub-cultists who revere Fried's 1924 Resurrection above all others? Those guys are weird even by MY standards.
Oh Good Lord Dave! I guess I may count myself very fortunate never to have encountered members of any musical cult, or to have had any of them in my family or friendships over the years. I only wish I were as fortunate when it comes to being exposed to political cultists. Still, I have to say back in the 1980's when the "Original Instrument HIP Crowd" got their start, my patience was wearing very thin indeed. I'm far too emotionally cynical to be a "joiner," especially when it involves conductors and soloists. All I've ever done is go to a concert or two, read up and research whatever writers and publications are out there about my next potential musical purchase, sample bits of a performance, take a chance, lay my money on the counter and appreciate and evaluate the music utterly alone with no cheerleaders or Kool-Aid drinkers in attendance. If it moves me, great, if it doesn't, I donate the recording to a library or charity, or gift it to someone I can't stand as a form of passive hostility and even revenge. :) I do so appreciate your recommendations Dave, because they appear to be based on an inner logic that can be explained to others, even if they don't agree with you. I think you must be doing something right, or I wouldn't have purchased so many of your recommendations over the last three years. Thanks for the great, cautionary video Dave. Take care!
I'm not in any cult, but Wang's piano playing is certainly a tour de force, and I happen to think she's an incredible musician. She's an exciting standout among modern pianists, very confident, very accurate, and very driving. What's not to like?
Most of it is rooted in jealousy IMO. A mix of people who are jealous that they can't play like her, women who are jealous they're not as beautiful as her, and men who are jealous that they've never been with a woman as beautiful as her. There's no other reason for the vitriol against her.
You said it all : she is confident, accurate and exciting. But there is no musicality and high level of interpretation in there! Actually to be more precise : she is completely out of tracks when playing romantic composers whose styles she doesn't know how to cope with and they become schmaltzy. But regarding modern and contemporary music (Bartok, Ligeti, Kapustin...) she is great because not many pianists can play these so difficult pieces (like Bartok's concerti for example). To quote a musical critics in "The Guardian" (UK 2022) : "Wang's flamboyance and virtuosity doesn't always convey a real sense of what music is about, but in works such as Ligeti's Études she is irrésistible". And here Dave said himself he didn't like hr Rachmaninov recording... I didn't either. She forgets that the real artist is the composer and she has to respect the composer. If you compare with that blind young pianist Nobuyuki Tsujii, he has a deep understanding of the meaning of the music and he has it all.
Her Sydney recital was a triumph. Her Scriabin Sonata 9 (Black Mass) and Chopin Sonata 3 were breathtaking. Her musicianship is impeccable. Her Beethoven Piano Concert 2 was less convincing.
I should add that she performed Beethoven 2 when AGAIN Martha Argerich withdrew at the last minute. Perhaps that informed my view. I was bitterly disappointed. But HELLO! even on her worst other pianists fail to rise to her ankle. Wang , Kissin (an all Liszt program) and Trifonov a the 3 finest recitals i have attended in the last 20 years.
As to the recent young up-and-comer conductors you alluded to, have you an opinion on how they compare or contrast musically to the wunderkinds of the past like Leonard Bernstein, Andre Previn, or Michael Tilson Thomas, or others which come to mind?
You're so right... You obviously make me laugh a lot, the way you talk about all these "cults", but really it's so important. And I must confess to having at one point just started, if not a cult, at least a blind trust in Klaus Mäkelä... But then... Once again, the main thing is this lucidity towards these cults, which stem from a habit so deeply rooted in the classic years. Your crusade is therefore important. Based on a cult of personality, how can you expect anyone to be realistic about your analysis of Furtwängler's Ninth? The thing about someone who worships a conductor, an instrumentalist or a singer, is that they NO LONGER HEAR the music, but what they want to hear. In this Ninth, the din will be heard, then, as so-called philosophical profundity, the absence of rigor for strength, and so on. Consequently, as with Celibidache, the Furtwängler cult functions on a total abandonment of lucidity. What's on your mind? That's the way it is. And it has to be said. Fatally, you can only irritate, or more exactly, provoke hysteria in your worshippers, when you offer them an objective argument. It can't be any other way, because it's all about bringing reason to bear on unconditional infatuation.
There are a few artists who I read critics claiming they are the best and advised people to just get everything they recorded. But after I listened to their recordings, I ended up don't think they are that special, good but not my personal choice of the best. I wonder if they would be part of the "cult" list. They are Carlos Kleiber and Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Talking about copyright claims, I had UMG (shock horror) suspend a private Facebook video of mine - only accessible to my FB friends - for “copyright”. It was a clip of me performing Reminiscences de Norma. Makes you wonder how Universal or any company can do this when said posts are private use…
I don't know how mean they were but the cult that made me mean was the Goodall Wagner cult, centered in Britain but also cropped in the pages of High Fidelity. His Ring cycle was worshipped and, more recently, his Mastersingers. Both of which neutered the dramas by impossibly slow tempos, reluctant even to proceed from bar to bar. His Rhinegold was the only one to ever require four lps. Far from being epic or monumental, it reminded me of Lot's wife, forever turned into a pillar of salt. Dreadful stuff from a dreadful man who supported the Nazis in Britain--during the war! At least that cult seems to have dissipated by now. One trait of the Furtwangler cult is that nothing Toscanini did was ever acceptable. I recall an essay article in High Fidelity on Beethoven and the two conductors. When Toscanini was faster than Furtwangler that was, needless to say, unacceptable. But when the Italian was slower than Furtwangler (and he was a number of times) that was likewise beyond the pale. Whereas most Toscanini admirers or cultists, if you will, that I know admire much of Furtwangler, especially in Wagner. But also things like his great DG Schubert 9th.
You said it. I am a Toscanini admirer, I would not say cultist, but I definitely liked and admired a lot of Furtwangler stuff. I just find the man's own attitude to Toscanini mean-minded and flagrantly poisoned by professional jealousy. Makes you wonder what he would have felt about Mahler if Mahler had lived long enough to be his rival for the crown of "acknowledged greatest German conductor". I suspect there might have been a burst of anti-semitism, something that in real life he does not seem to have indulged. A great conductor, yes, but of the two I admire Toscanini, not just as a musician, but as a human being.
There's no cult like a Soprano cult. Just ask at La Scala! Mention the best Tosca, Butterfly, Seiglinde, or the best Four Last Songs and sit back and let the comments flow.
Celibidache: 'An artist is not ready to approach the Beethoven Violin Concerto until they reach the age of 40'. The problem with that apparently incontrovertible assertion is that Beethoven was 36 when he wrote it!
This is mere anecdata, but the most churlish and unpleasant person I have encountered on a popular online classical music forum is indeed a Furtwangler devotee.
These are cults of which I was unaware but am not surprised they exist, in so far as you say they do. To me there is an interesting contrast between Wang and Makela, who have performed together of course. They are certainly both attractive people in the physical sense. However, Wang is a more mature and proven musical talent and I agree with you, Dave, that Makela has yet to reach that level. In fact I fear that Makela will go down some similar journey to that of Simon Rattle. That is, well regarded and attractive in youth but ultimately developing a legacy of being overestimated. I hope he becomes a true great but there's no way anyone can predict that yet.
I wasn't aware of the fan cult around Klaus Mäkelä but as he was recently appointed chief conductor of the Concertgebouw Orchestra it appears like the fanboyism has affected even the board of one of the world's leading orchestras.
With the wealth of recordings available, i don't see how anyone could enjoy a Furtwängler Nazi-era recording for any reason but out of morbid curiosity. i mean, that's my reason. i certainly feel more like i'm perusing a dark historical document than taking in a bit if music. i came across a boxed set of such recordings, but curiously, the Beethoven 9th is not in there. My morbid curiosity doesn't extend far enough to seek it out on its own.
Having watched this channel for the last couple of years, it seams to me the most vicious crew in the comment section are those who hate anything HIP and period performance.
Ha ha ha, c'mon, haven't you noticed that whenever you review something HIP unfavorably a whole school of Piranhas flocks to devour ALL HIPness in the comment section with the utmost nastiness? @@DavesClassicalGuide
I have, in fact, literally fallen asleep listening to one of the Celibidache Bruckner 8 recordings. I actually like it if I’m in the right mood, but any Celi cultist who would insist his approach is THE approach to the music, path to nirvana, etc. is well off the mark.
Good for you for not wearing a tie for a performance for Nazis. You are quite fine without an analysis, though I know it's your job to present one. Anyway, some people like me are just listeners. We don't play instruments, we don't know the nomenclature behind the music and perhaps don't even know a coda from a fugue. Bet we can hear great, wonderful, beautiful music and have our favorites nonetheless for how it makes me feel. I have been introduced to and bought music that did not know existed and now treasure because of this channel, so thank you. I have a similar dilemma as you in that I'm a political science major who's studied history all of my life and I have to listen to the idiots around me who wouldn't know a history book if it hit them on the head. It's absolutely terrifying. For those of us who have spent our entire lives studying something and being told that we don't know what we're talking about while anybody's opinion is just as valid, well, it''s positively insufferable.
I will take a chance that this comment will be withdrawn, but here goes .I am older than yourself Dave,but I do believe that the days of the superstar conductor is well over.I cannot see what the music world sees in Klaus Makela.The Royal Concertgebouw Amsterdam must be so desperate to appoint this man to one of the biggest jobs in the world from 2027.He is already in charge of the Orchestre de Paris and Oslo Philharmonic for which he is far too young.I know there is a world shortage (in my opinion) of possible great conductors which is sad.His bubble will burst and he will have to reconsider the jobs he takes.He is even worse than Simon Rattle who never deserved to be where he is.I will end it there because I am getting into rant mode
Thank you for this comment, I can tell you that it’s completely rooted in reality. We all know that the Klaus phenomenon is totally engineered by some hidden hand and unfortunately so many pop-up Instagram Virtuosi are artificially boosted for the “likes” algorithm - it’s the horrible business of music once again devouring itself(big in Japan). I personally know many wonderful young conductors (better then golden boy) who are never given the chance to succeed / they’ve gone through many years of arduous conservatory training, and yet here’s some guy (who is not a genius) who dropped out of school with engagements…alas I too will stop ranting.
This has nothing to do with age. The male brain reaches full maturity at the age of 25 and it isn't uncommon for highly intellectually gifted people to be far more emotionally mature than most of their peers. If he messes up a Sibelius symphony cycle it's not because he's too young but because he has musical ideas which don't work very well.
I think the Bruckner people may have a little bit of self-awareness. The very reason we are so goofy is because we know the stakes are so low and it feels good to let it rip - better to obsess over Anton Bruckner than to obsess over returning to the gold standard. Just be nice in the comments, people. 😊
If this is the top 5 in nastyness, I definitely want to hear the numbers 6 to10... Or, less kindly put, I want to hear more opinion and Hurbitch comments on, just as examples, Thielemann, Barenboim, Alsop, Lang Lang and anything mean on Jay Aaron Kernis
I imagine an Andris Nelsons cult will be coming your way soon. Already there are those who swear by his Shostakovich and Strauss, etc., etc. and criticizing his work -- live and/or in the studio -- makes them very angry. You've already noticed that the performances are nothing much.
It’d interesting that Mäkelä has inspired such cultish loyalty given how little music he has recorded in his young life. Mostly people are bickering over the Sibelius cycle. Even those who love it surely must concede there are many other great cycles and singleton recordings of the symphonies. Give it time, people! Let’s not get too agitated about one box set either way.
David, you refer to Bernstein as a natural educator. You’re in the same ball park. Your analysis of Mahler’s symphonies was a game changer for me. Your passion us palpable.
Many cults are highly dangerous, particularly in politics! However, AFAIK, none of the classical music cults are physically dangerous but invective together with personal, racial or religious slurs are absolutely unacceptable. Of all those performer cults, the enthusiasm which I understand best is for Furtwängler. Some of his recorded performances were in good mono sound and seem to me to add a dimension to the music in a way that few others equal, notably the Lucerne 9th, Schumann 4, Schubert 9, Tristan, Götterdämmerung excerpts, Walküre and some Brahms. That said, I agree that his repertoire was narrow, that his legacy is very uneven and a lot of it is in very poor sound. Of anecdotal interest, I did attend a Fürtwängler concert with the touring Berlin Philharmonic but I was too young (about 10 or 11) to remember much about it other than his willowy silhouette from the stalls to the right of the platform and my mother's rather inane surprise that so soon after the privations of the war the orchestra's members were impeccably turned out in white ties and tails! I found the programme when clearing out my mother's house after her death. It was Till Eulenspiegel and Schubert 9; the latter might well have been an outstanding memory for me, if I had been 5+ years older!
Musical cults can actually be lethal. I remember around 15 years ago that teenage girls were slicing their wrists over a German pop rock band called Tokio Hotel. Deadly stampedes have happened at concerts and there's also examples of musicians with a large fan base behaving like cult leaders, for example R. Kelly, who literally locked women in his basement to be able and molest them. He got in a position to do so completely thanks to the cult of personality stemming from his music. Or how about James Levine, who used his influence in the music world in order to facilitate his pederasty.
Dave,in the recent issue of BBC Music Magazine they had an article and interview with Francois Xavier Roth. He said that Klaus Makela has expressed an interest in recording a Sibelius cycle with Le Siecle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, and Simon Rattle also wants to conduct them ! Can't wait to turn you loose on the likes of that possibility !
Thielemann and Nelsons had 2 of the world’s greatest orchestras at their disposal (Staatskapelle Dresden and Boston Symphony respectively) and STILL managed to get it wrong. Both of these conductors are a pestilence. Not all of their work is as appalling as their Bruckner. Thielemanns’s Rosenkavalier is insanely wonderful (and that’s in an incredibly strong field). I cannot think of one of Nelsons’ recordings that is up to snuff. At best he is ordinary and uninspired.
If I hover on being a Callas cultist, it's probably because I am an opera-is-drama cultist, the dramatic situation and narrative tension almost as important as the music. Callas, Genger, Oliveiro, Albanese, Stratas, sopranos like those make the most of both music and drama and that is the most thrilling thing to encounter in opera. @@DavesClassicalGuide
Maria Callas was a fantastically good soprano, in a fairly narrow range of parts, and that by choice. She could perform in Wagner and other Germans if she liked (there is a remarkable Kundry by her in existence), she just did not like to. All the same, her cultists are, or were. unreasoning bad news. Especially in Milan. There was a time when any soprano performing Violetta within the city limits was booed. Recently Diana Damrau broke that curse, maybe because the real fanatics are now dead or in assisted living, but thank God for that anyway - another bad Italian tradition cancelled.
On the question of F……., I understand your point of grandiose narcissism. He is not the only artist for whom that worked in their career (until it didn’t) - so I think self deception is the central critique you can raise. Ambitious and jealous of others, sure, but opportunist, I am not so sure. Opportunists rise on trends for their own benefit. But the main opportunity F….... managed to grab at the time was to be a grandiose narcissist not fitting in anywhere. I have a handful of his recordings because in a couple of them his interpretations pulled me in like none before, and it had to do with pacing. I think this is what people seem to find in his recordings or look for within the noise. That doesn’t work for me, but I am not in a position to clam that they deceive themselves in terms of finding what they were looking for. It is also a claim that is sure to make people upset.
Yeah, that Furtwangler performance is a spectacular trainwreck of a disaster. One of the worst ever. And some of his other performances rival it. I can't see how anyone could follow his baton technique (all ten feet of it.) He just seems to be waving it around in the most random way possible. Having said this, there are some truly excellent Furtwangler recordings out there which is more one can say regarding Celibidache. I have to say that I haven't ever heard a performance from Celibidache that I thought was close to being passable. His tempos are ridiculous and unmusical. Bernstein could do unusual tempi, but half the time I thought that they worked better than the standard way, for example, I love his tempi for his Carmen recording with Horne. Some are slower than the usual, some are faster, but they all work for the music. If Bizet was still around and heard them, he'd say something like "I think they work better than mine do." But no composer would ever say the same for a Celibidache interpretation.
I feel like I've seen similar cultish behavior from fans of Bruckner and Mahler, with the Mahler cult being much larger than the Bruckner cult. I've only ever encountered one real Bruckner fanatic, but I can't seem to venture into any online classical music space without running into half a dozen Mahler fanatics who seem to be offended that I can't produce a ranking of my top five recordings of each Mahler symphony, or think there's something wrong with me because my ten favorite symphonies don't include at least five of Mahler's. But maybe that's because I'm personally not a big fan of Mahler at all, which means the Mahler cult instantly zeroes in on me, while I like Bruckner enough to keep his cultists off my back?
Life is short. I like Mahler much more than Bruckner. The problem with the symphonies of both is that they are just too long for their own good. However, Mahler has a really distinguished melodic gift and abundance of memorable moments in his works that make them a real pleasure to experience. I just wish that I had the gobs of time to take it all in more regularly. Musical gigantism is its own worst enemy. Now, those marvellous Mahler song cycles: he got it right with them!
Slightly surprised about trouble over the use of clips--if you play short clips as a way of demonstrating or educating, those are examples, should be considered "fair use." Perhaps the issue is that on RU-vid it's considered monetized or commercial? Maybe a lawyer with IP background could help? As for cults, I have to agree with you that love of the arts should not translate into nasty infighting. Classical music has enough trouble attracting fans! If someone has a slightly different taste than you--accept it. Live and let live. Thanks for the nice video!
Luckily you haven't covered anything (that I remember) of violinist Patricia Kopachinskaya, but good god, in any of her things posted to youtube, if you DARE dissent from the adulation of her cultish adulators, be prepared for the wrath of the PatKop-ers! If you of the opinion that she's is ignoring the composer's instructions lock, stock and barrel, and indulging in a completely narcissistic "look at ME, ME, ME" approach, you become one of those who ONLY like dead, dry, literal performances, and it's folks like "you" who are killing classical music by only permitting the boring approaches of those without any originality. Let's hope you continue to ignore her and that she doesn't need to be added to NEXT year's list.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I dread the day that the young players I work with are "inspired" by and emulate her kind of nonsense. That's when I'll hang it up, and retire to an "no, it doesn't have to be urtext, but this is ridiculous" community!
Dear Dave, thank you for your wonderful content, which I enjoy regularly. I would be intrigued to know what you think about Hans Rott 1st symphony? I remember your video on his other symphonic works, which enraged me so much that I thought of starting my own Hans Rott cult… In all seriousness, thank you for your work and authenticity. Marc
Just wanted to add that I find the Nazi 9th to be a rather interesting case. Furtwangler, to me, is compelling primarily because he is a real musical interpreter with all kinds of interesting ideas with regard to phrasing, tempo variation and general conception. His interpretations always sound very spontaneous and energized to me. The Nazi 9th suffers horribly from ragged playing and worse sonics, but his interpretive characteristics are present nonetheless, so there is interesting stuff to listen to. I rather wonder if the super-loud timpani in the first movement was really that loud in person, or if it was just bad recording, the effect is certainly pretty terrifying. The last movement is brisk and lean, has moments of serious intensity and drama. I see what people are latching on to, too bad the performance crashes and burns with an orchestra and sound engineers that just don't seem to have the wherewithal to execute the idea.
Yes, but you can get all of those same qualities in very good sound in other F performances of the same work, and that's the point. You don't have to pretend that this one is great, especially when (having heard those other, better versions) you allege to detect those better qualities in this version just to hype its importance.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Just wanted to say as a follow up that there is something extremely compelling about considering the perverse performance context, I think this context is intoxicating for modern listeners and can mislead them into ascribing special qualities to the performance. For my part, I think I hear in the performance the peculiar hyper-patriotism and self-confidence of the Nazi period, mixed at the same time with the insecurity of contemplating a war that was showing signs of impending disaster. The general violence of the war seeps in, especially in the first movement, perhaps a firsthand reflection of experience of Allied bombing. The poor playing of the orchestra, alas, seems to me simply a reflection of a proud orchestra depleted by many performers either sent to the front or fired because they were Jewish.
Grigory Sokolov would be another interesting artist to talk about, in my opinion he is the only God-like figure in the piano world today but I would love to hear your opinion on his playing and music interpretation since it's almost imposible to find someone who dears to criticise him.
That's what I wanted to hear!! 😊🎉🎉 At least someone speaks his mind about him. I really find him marvelous on romantic literature, his Schumann Fantasy is My personal favourite but I find that his Mozart/Haydn readings lack spontaniety and can become boring after the first couple of minutes specially when compared to Robert Levin, maybe they can't be compared but I definitely prefer Levin's aproach. Anyway thank you for your answer😊
That is the crux. As you have often pointed out, live concerts of music by genius composers can excite anyone, no matter how well played or interpreted to the well-informed. Sokolov preens himself in the worship mystique; let's not be fooled by it... @@DavesClassicalGuide
As Joseph Horowitz noted in a NYT article some 45 years ago "A few of the Russians are quite flamboyant - addicted to rubbery tempos, throbbing colors and thundering volleys of sound, and immune to what is elsewhere considered proper style or pristine taste."@@arnausubiracanaleta3162
Oh, there is definitely a John Wilson cult in London - the other day, a world-famous musician described his Sinfonia of London as 'one of the world's great orchestras'. Uh? I think it may be something to do with the fact that, by all accounts, he's very nice to his fans. If you have a sweet encounter with a musician, that's more likely to prejudice you in favour of his or her performances. (I'm not say this works for all cults, obviously.) By the same token, there is not, and never has been, a John Eliot Gardiner cult over here. And there's the endless plugging by Gramophone, which is becoming more and more of a plug-machine. It must be embarrassing for proper critics like Rob Cowan to read the indiscriminate gushing towards the front of the magazine.
A craze. I seem to recall that the Sinfonia so named is the really quite good orchestra that made so many records on budget ventures, for at counter sails in drug stores and at other such venues, not distinguished perhaps but surprisingly and reliably enjoyable, like my favourite category of overtures collections. @@michaelcarroll7621
@@michaelcarroll7621 Did I imagine Dave talking about the nascent cult of the conductor John Wilson? Right at the end of the video? Wikipedia tells me there’s a ‘John Wilson, conductor’. It’s really not that hard to find.
Marvellous. As always!. I recently watched DW documentary on music and propaganda in Germany. Chilling and reinforcesmany of your points. I am from India and not part of the simitic cultures. But i have read up on history quite a bit. For the longest time i had trouble listening to the Karajan recordings. I do not much care for "opportunist" explanations. Buone of your videos set things in the right perpective. But these bl***** cultists. Sorry if this is offensive. Hari
I’m mildly surprised that there isn’t a Dudamel cult…but I guess he came into the public sphere just before the social media stuff exploded. I don’t remember there being the blind fandom behind him in 2005-08 there way there is with Klaus. 🤷🏻♂️
Oh, yeah, Dudamel. Man, he's so hot. One just cannot resist him musically or his vivacity musically and in every way. However, I would not be part of his cult. I just enjoy him with more moderation than that. But -- the guy rocks!
@@geraldparker8125 I saw him do Mahler 2 at the Hollywood bowl right before the pandemic. On the whole I enjoy his live recordings and videos more than what he’s done in the studio. Even his early stuff though, the interpretations just aren’t that distinctive. But they’re not bad/clueless like the Klaus stuff. I just think he’s better in performance.
Regarding Yuja Wang, the same accusations have been leveled at Khatia Buniatishvili. I think she's a remarkable artist, and I don't really care what she wears on stage.
Yes; any woman over the last decade or so who dares to wear less than a burka or shows a 'bit of stocking' is judged by the sexist morally decadent and antediluvian as artistically lacking and as strumpets! What a world...
So, you're irritated and angry at "Bruckner fanatics" because our love for Bruckner is good for sales which means more Bruckner symphony cycles get released?? I don't know why that would matter to anyone who is not an avid Brucknerite unless in your case you are being forcibly made to review lousy Bruckner cycles. I mean, no one is forced to buy Bruckner or listen to him. Oh well, we're at least the least irritating of this group! Bring on all the Bruckner anniversary releases next year! Can't wait. What about Mahlerites? Surely they are more fanatical and crazed than us Brucknerites. I know of tons of them over on the Classical part of the Hoffman Forum that update their quest to acquire every single Mahler cycle ever made and post pictures of every new Mahler purchase. I love Mahler myself, but I'm not that OCD. I only have about 25 Mahler symphony cycles......
No, I'm not irritated and angry at them at all. I think that's very clear from what I said. As for your love of Bruckner being "good for sales," if you think anyone is making a profit on Bruckner cycles, then you're even more delusional than your colleagues!
@DavesClassicalGuide If the record companies aren't making any $$ on Bruckner cycles, why do they keep making new sets to sell? Speaking of Bruckner and Mahler, the Decca Haitink set released this year ridiculously does not include the Blu Ray audio discs of those cycles which came with the individual cd sets for each composer. Can you get on them about the absurdity of that? They are selling what's supposed to be a comprehensive box set and leave out the disc that contains the entire cycles in hi res audio. Those blu ray audio disc sets are oop and go for silly 2nd hand prices, especially for Mahler. I just don't understand that.
@@kbrewski1 My takeaway from listening to Dave talk about the recording industry is that either profit is actually not a core objective of record labels, or those companies have no clue what they are doing.
@@kbrewski1 Absolutely plausible. Dave posted a recent video on how the record industry is now effectively a charity. Also consider how the massive box sets that have flooded the market are not far removed from clearance sales.
