I will also chime in that you have to run the Blake under power to get it spot on. It is pretty easy to get zero movement of the needle that way. Also some spindles torque shift a little under power from the oil film, so with it running you can get a better true center. I used to split tenths with a Blake on a jig borer, no problem. The dial really isn't good for anything numerical, it changes a lot based on the feeler arm position and length, but since it's only to find zero, that doesn't matter. As long as your hole is round, you should always be able to get the needle motionless, and then you know you are bang on.
Love my Blake Co Ax, I've found it is just as accurate as all my other indicators. I like to run mine at 50-100rpm to dial it in and makes sweeping in a hole a breeze
I have a non-blake brand coaxial indicator that I use to set my rotary table and quill (via DRO) to 0,0 reference. I also then used a dial indicator sweep test, and it's center enough. The coax indicator is SO much faster and easier, and your test and mine show good results with the technique. So that has become my workflow for that task.
Hey Adam, I've been using a Blake for 3 years or so. Remember, indicating at longer or odd lengths does not necessarily indicate accurately to measurement, but indicates to relative. It's for indicating, not measuring. Large holes, or outside diameters are iffy, but are indicated pretty accurately. I usually verify position within a thou or so with an edge finder or, preferably, a Haimer 3D Taster. Like you, I take the Blake and get a rough position by sight. Then I adjust X. Y should then be the same number as X for a round hole. ...Fine adjust from there.
Adom A thought >> you have installed a DRO Drill a hole, set 0,0 move table and use Blake to find 0 and compare with the DRO, as it should now be 0,0 as well Cheers from Canada
I was thinking the same thing myself, and additionally I was wondering if using the Blake Co-Ax with a running spindle may allow you to home in on a zero more accurately, even if I don't see how it would be different, it still could affect it in some way. What do you think about that?
I think the only thing that could effect it is the circular face that the arm rubs on as it rotates, providing all the pivots aren't loose and the dial is ok. It must be perfectly flat and perpendicular to the axis if the spindle.
I think the advantage of the coax is that it's just quicker to set up. I like to run it under power at slow speed. and turn the x and the y dials as it's spinning. It's just quick and easy.
The readings on Co-ax are actually different with different length feelers, it's a mathematics thing, all that matters is that when the needle stops moving it means that you're indicated in.
Blake Co-Ax are great for quick and fairly accurate work, you wont be building space ships with one but for us normal people they are pretty good. You'll find that you will break that arm bit off of the Blake just about as easy as the imports, but last time I needed one i was able to just order a new one and it fit and worked just as new. Imports not so much. We use to just tig them back together and keep using them, after you weld them once they just bend easy that's all. I've found that you can get within about .0005" easy in a vertical but the dial sag is really hard to comp for in a horizontal. Stick with a test dial and a sag test rig for dialing in anything critical in the horizontal.
As I understand, the Blake is calibrated for the dial readings with the 2" arm installed. Changing to other arms changes the values of the readings. There was a toolmaker on another video ranting about some centering errors with the Blake that ruined a critical workpiece. Blake has a table to use to compensate for particular attachments. I guess the rule should be to use other methods when a high degree of accuracy is required. blakemanufacturing.com/pages/coaxvalues.html
Hey Adam. Very good video as always. I work almost exclusively on a Lucas horizontal boring mill and buying a co-ax indicator was the biggest time saver i could make. I do a lot of repair and one-off jobs and it is just so much quicker for picking up existing bores and holes. You're right, you do have to treat them with respect and go easy with them but they make my day easier and thats worth the money spent. But i really do need to get a mini Noga arm like yours. Cheer's…Mike
I most often use my coax indicator in the lathe, to align the tailstock and 'mini line boring', where the part is mounted on the slide and bored with a tailstock supported boring bar.
Years ago I did the exact same test with my personal Starrett last word against the company owned Blake coax. Indicated with the coax first and got a hole running dead true. Swapped to the last word that showed .01 off (.005 off center). I put the Blake back in the tool crib and never tried to use it again. I'm not blaming the coax just all the ham fisted co-workers that didn't know how to treat a precision tool. Its water under the bridge now as that employment is a distant memory! lol
Abom You NEED to run the spindle. That's the whole idea. While its running you can physically see the oscillation of the needle which indicates its off centre.turning by hand you can't see those final fine oscillations.
Hi Adam, Suggestion for box....turn upside down and at 2 corners adjacent to the catch drill 2 holes may bee 20mm...stopped holes so they don't protrude the face side of the open box ....glue 2 cylinder plugs out of brass, led ,whatever...extra front weights will be unseen and provide stability....you can work out how much weight you need before drilling holes by placing on the open face first...enough weight will stop it tipping....Cheers.
Hey Adam, for fun you could drill some inch holes in the bottom outer edge corners of that there box and cast some lead cylinders to drop into them to balance the weight of the lid :)
I'm glad you're happy with it Adam. For the case weighting, I'd just drill a couple holes on the reverse of the lower case half and press some steel rod into the holes to weight it down. It looks like there's enough room to do it - Seems they didn't or couldn't think of that at the factory ;) Hope the other centering bit made it to you okay as well. Hope it brings you many years of reliable accurate service. cheers mate :)
Really appreciate your videos. I learn a lot from your different projects. I do not have a machinist mentor and have to learn proper methods through trial and error or through online help. Your videos are great at teaching the small things that would only be learned through working in a machine shop or the expensive way. I think it takes me longer to get something chucked up in my 3 jaw than it does you to get something running true in your 4 jaw. :)
I have a junk co-ax indicator. its good for 5. That blake I found for $373. Ouch. So buy the noga and use a test indicator. just my humble thoughts. also a fowler i found. $180. out of possible 5, averaged 3. Whoops. I was whining that my co-ax was junk and thought, hey that thing looks good. thanks for taking you time. It did a good job, Adam, use it.
ya tram was good looked like. The website has the table's you need for the different feelers. I love it when a website has the price list for the parts and repair last I looked they did Its a complicated tool you can find outta round down in a small bore some weird stuff like that spin it by hand especially the imports last way longer
If that case bothers you Adam you could put a sheet lead bottom on the main half. Drilling a couple of holes and putting steel or lead in them would also solve the balance quickly. I know you shouldn't have to but it is today's world. Take care. Doug
Adam, maybe you can fix that wooden case. Drill a hole into the base, or from the side and drop an old carbide end mill or some lead shot in the hole. Then plug the hole with some wood glue and the wood-chips you drilled out of it.
I love the Blake! I'll have to get one eventually... And those 10ths reading test indicators are definitely touchy... I've borrowed my dad's mitutoyo a few times, and they're very sensitive....
It is nice to see a wooden box instead of some plastic crap, but that gray foam doesn't really belong there. It will eventually start falling apart or become sticky. A good way to deal with that is to throw it away and put there some classic green felt instead.
Drill front corners of box (from bottom) maybe 1/2" drill, depth just to make blind holes. Then pour lead in holes. (Test with lead shot on corners to see how much weight is needed to keep box nose heavy.) Otherwise mount wood strip on front face of top tall enough to support lid when open. I like weight idea best.
My dad always told me to run the machine with a coaxial indicator because it makes the error more pronounced. I don't know how true it is but I tested spinning the spindle by hand how you did till I thought it was good then I turned the mill on and the needle was bouncing back and forth. Took a few seconds to mess with the table to get the bounce settled down so it seems like it it's true.
Put some small fridge magnets on the bottom of the wooden box. Since most surfaces in the shop are metal, I believe it will solve your tilting problem.
simple fix for the box, drill 1/4 inch hole in each corner on bottom of box on latch side and fill with lead and plug with filler small weight add will more than likely keep the box in balance when opened
very nice, thank you. i would respectfully like to point out you changed collets, putting an unknown variable in the procedure so it really doesn't prove the test dead nuts. perhaps it doesn't matter that much, but it is unknown.
Spindle to hole alignment wasn't changed just because you changed the attachments. No matter what you do between the spindle and the work, so long as you don't move the table, the tools will be aligned with the hole. That's how reaming, tapping, grooving and etc. utilize a drilled hole accurately.
If the quill and head are trammed properly to the table, everything will be aligned, no matter of a collet is running out or not, the indicator will find the center.
They are nice thing to have, I just wish they made a little smaller version that would be easier to use on my smaller mill...oh, I guess I could get a big boy bridgeport-type one day. :-)
I was shopping for a Noga articulating arm. I do CNC milling we always leave a 3/8 collet in one of the tool holders for the edge finder. My problem is that the shank on the Noga arms are 8mm. Not 3/8 or even 10mm for standard and Metric edge finders. So why did they pick the 8mm shank? I even contacted the company and they said it has never been brought to there attention. Probably because most people just make an adapter. Me I just went with a cheap Chinese holder with a 3/8 shank.
Its a keeper. Keith Fenner would have dialed it in at 160 rpm though... Perhaps high speed co-ax indication will be on the event calendar at the next Bar Z Bash :-).
I'm using an import with good results but a Blake is on my wish/want list. I would really like to see a demo of a 3D Haimer indicator. They are not a great deal more expensive than a Blake. Do you have any insights into them?
Adam, Good tips on being extra careful with the Blake. I wonder if you would get more "real" results with the machine running? With the spindle rotating you can see what may or may not show up with rotating it by hand. I usually set the spindle speed to slow in back gear with my Blake. Thanks for another great vid! Eric
Co-ax indicators are for quick centering of rough stock but I wouldn't use it for anything where accuracy is needed. One other thing about manual mills and R8 collets is that they never repeat better than .0005. More like .0015 TIR is normal. I'd be curious of the results if you did it in a CNC. We did it once about 20 years ago and found the results very disappointing. Don't recall the brand we tested but I'm pretty sure it was made in the USA.
I used one of these a few times but didn't like it. My Starret indicator is more expedient. The coaxial is like a fancy expensive watch yet all it does is tell time. And yes, I was always afraid of dropping it. In my mind, it's not worth the money.
Adam great review/comparison I have a question on the Kurt vise fixed jaw what is the groove for or when/how would you use it. Thanks for your dedication to a beginner. Tom
The stop that goes in that groove on the Kurt jaw is stored in another slot that is right above the screw, right next to the handle hex on the Kurt. If it hasn't been lost.
In my opinion, coaxial indicators are valid for only one function, finding center, not measuring error. Blake is a fine instrument. Running the spindle at slow rpm is the proper test procedure. Changing coaxial indicators test probe lengths introduced tangential error so dimensional accuracy is compromised. Collet variance is not a factor in the test comparison, you are testing with the same spindle bearing run-out. The indicators are spinning on the same spindle axis. A mag base set up or a chuck will give identical results as the spindle is vertical and there is no gravitational effect on the mag base. I never trust Interapid indicators unless they are validated and are totally under your personal control. They are beautiful, have the largest travel range for any test indicator, but are so easily damaged. Every time I had reason to validate a shop owned Interapid, I found lash of .0002-.0004". For this reason I prefer Brown and Sharp Bestest, Starrett or a Mititoyo. The best function that I know of for using a coaxial indicator is to validate tool holder center line on a turret lathe. Since the indicator face is always towards the operator it eliminates using an inspection mirror to read the indicator when turned away or face down. Finding center easily and quickly with a coaxial indicator is the goal. No needle swing in a true round hole means you have center. Amount of error with needle swing on a true round hole is irrelevant. Just find center. That is your goal.
Just curious why you didn't take the time to put the Blake dead nuts on center. That way you could see if the two different indicators measured precisely the same. I'm sure they would as I've been using my Blake for almost 40 years without any issues.
Really nice video on the Blake. I am interested in getting one and it's nice to see that it is a quality instrument. One question though; when comparing the Blake to the best test, how do you know the fluctuations in the best test is a measurement of the out of round of the hole vs. the center location?
Mike, the ones I have been testing out and using everyday is the Shars Aventor digital calipers. Shars sent them to me to use and abuse to give them feedback. So far no complaints. I have an 8" i use daily at work and they have been holding up just fine. I've checked them with gage blocks a few times and they are still square and read accurately. Not a bad price either.
Can you take a thin foam wrapped stock piece of lead in the empty space of the indicator so the case doesn't flip and take a dive one day ? Just a silly idea and you don't have ruin the case drilling holes to put in weight.
If you're in front of the machine, most of the time the X-axis is left/right, Y-axis is front/back and Z-axis is up/down. Right-hand-rule is an easy trick to remember
Speed is one thing. Not having to bend & contort to see the dial is another. Also the Blake is great for finding the center of a shaft for cutting keyways, oll pin holes etc. instead of using edge finders.
If the bore that you checked is not square to the spindle then you cant compare the 2 unless you are at the exact same height. You could have checked the squareness of bore to spindle first.
Drill a hole - from the end of the bottom half of the box, near the front - all the way through, and push in a brass rod or something heavy. Should fix it for You..;)
