BMW M3 S65 MAIN BEARING FAILURE! Rod bearings trumped by main bearings. 

@@ametti000 it seems to be a good solution at this point.

No they said the serpentine belt is the reasen why the late s65 engins (09 and later) have this problem. The early versions had an different serpentine belt. All versions have the same chain and main bearings.

@@stevenpower3780 early motors have this issue as well so that doesn't make sense. I doubt serpintine belt would cause main bearings to wear lol

@@boostedrede30 this is not my theory, you said that H2M have the same theory and that is false my frend they said it that they think it is the serpentine belt what lifts the crankshaft. They recognize that the late engines are more vulnerable for this issuse

@@stevenpower3780 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's after 15/05/2008 that BMW decided to change the layout of the serpentine belt. Before 05.08 BMW had the belt OVER the power steering pulley then UNDER the idler, after 05.08 the belt was rerouted UNDER power steering then OVER for some reason. BMW had a lot of these minor adjustments after the 2008, I think the manual transmission as well. The clutch and flywheel after 2008 are not compatible before 2008.

@@SuperPandaren yeah that’s right FCP Euro had also a video about the S65 that shows the different in the belt layout.

10w60 paired with cooler temperatures and impatient owners was always gonna be a recipe for disaster. For the type of driving and temperatures that most people drive this cars at, 5w40 is the thickest they should go.

@@Legend57. I'm not sure this is true. Many of the early S85/S65 failures were noticed in warm So Cal. If the 10W were the problem, we would see a climate skew to failure distribution and I just don't think there's any evidence to point to that. It's quite possible that 5W-40 makes the problem worse, not better. A 10W is still ok below freezing. If it can be pumped it will circulate. If it was too think we would see high oil pressure and bypass action.

Totally agree with this

Bespoke?

@@2nickles647 yes, they are engines that are designed for just one specific model and are made with all the features of Motorsport powertrains (at least used to before turbochargers).

What a great video! I am now happy that I replaced my mains at 211.000km. Now at 232.000 and still going strong (80% racetrack km)

S54 inline 6 for example also has same rod bearing issue as s65 v8 and s85 v10

@@288gto7 exactly and thats why i trust japan in developing engines :D

it's proven that the turbo inline 6's are less reliable than the s65. this is an issue yes, but S65 have lasted 250k+ miles that's over 300k kms if maintained correctly

​@@rengokusatslol ihave one with 400k

s85*

Yes we are trying to create awareness and show an option to repair so that these engines can live on

What do you mean by „found a reputable shop? M539 rebuild it himself😁

​@@wojtech270the only help he had was with the alusil bore re-finish process. Yes M539 is a very good technician and a true enthusiast which equates to doing very good work. We watch him and think he is doing very well with his work.

I have stripped an S85 down due to rod bearing failure to rebuild but I did notice heavy wear in the main bearing. Aka number 1 by the crank nose.

It got me thinking: wouldnt engines with massive flywheels feel the same thing on the last bearing? Altough when it rotates it should be good, but initially it could introduce a bit of a trouble to that last bearing, at least i would think so. Lets say that flywheel weighs 26 kg + clutch and pressure plate, thats like a cement bag hanging on the end of the crank. I think adding bigger harmonic balancer on the front end could reduce that radial force on the first crankpin, altough it would mess with harmonics

Wow scary. How much is "some metal" as in glitter bomb with the filter covered or a few scraps?

@@01.k.p I changed the oil about 50 miles from home in a shop, and saw sparkly oil on the pan, but assumed it was from another car that had drained. Didn't think much of it. Filter was on backorder at the time and I got it a few days later, which is when I checked the filter and saw quite a bit of copper. That's when I pulled it into the shed, still running perfectly. Worst part is the crack goes almost all the way up to the bores, no saving this block. Had to get a used engine and had it remanned by Carbahn as it had a cracked piston and bore was scored. Pics on the "Another S65 main bearing failure" thread on m3post.

@@MrElectrify funny enough I’ve probably read it. Not funny situation though.But I’ll reread thanks for the info. It is very crazy the engine was running alright. Makes you wonder how long it would continue since the block was already trashed. I’m glad you got it back up and running. These engines are something. Enjoy in good health

@@01.k.p Still waiting on the Carbahn engine, things are still in flight lol. Hoping to have the car running at the end of the month. I really wish I knew it was already trash, I absolutely would've run it until something truly catastrophic happened, we've never seen an S65 split in half and I'm curious how long it would take. I'm sure it would've seized before long

Exactly what i have seen in an engine i replaced. Front bearing spun with 0 discoloration or heat. Upper was fully wiped out.

Chain speed is not very high due to a small drive sprocket, so there is not a lot more tension added to the chain.

Very interesting thank you

Will do an S63 engine autopsy video shortly coming out of an F10 M5

Thank you for watching and acknowledging.

If you have to ask how much time and money to own your car. Then, it's time to get a vw beetle 🐞

@@2nickles647 lol literally did not ask about how much more it would cost. I’m asking what other steps are required if you’re already replacing the rod bearings. I.e. If the crankshaft has to come out then do we need to retime the engine? You just sound like you listen to your service advisor at the dealership when he says your windshield washer fluid costs $500

@@jys8569 I'm not a mechanic so take all this with a grain of salt, but I did have an E90 M3 and looked into replacing the rod bearings myself when I bought it. I ended up bringing it to a shop because I didn't have the facilities, tools, or experience at the time. But I became familiar with the procedure. Doing the main bearing in addition to the rod bearings adds a large amout of extra labor to the job. The rod bearings can be replaced with the engine in the car and without removing the crankshaft or any of the timing assembly. In my opinion it would be crazy to ONLY replace the #1 main bearing if you're going to do all that work, I would replace all 5 at that point. This engine uses a "bedplate" style main bearing cap, which means all of the main bearings have to be installed/removed at the same time, it also means you have to pull the crankshaft completely to replace any of the upper bearings. Pulling the crankshaft means that you would have to retime the engine, unless you could mark/index EXACTLY where the timing chain was on the crankshaft when it was removed. I am pretty sure replacing the main bearings becomes an engine-out job by that point, where replacing the rod bearings is commonly done with the engine still in the car. There are lots of youtube videos of guys rebuilding these engines, I would recommend watching one of those videos to get an idea of what goes into installing the mains. Once again I'm not a mechanic so I hope that someone else can chime in and make any corrections for stuff I got wrong. Maybe the mains can be replaced with the engine in the car but I double most mechanics would want to do it that way.

Go watch a channel called m359 restorations, he has a series rebuilding the s65 for his e92 m3.

@legend57 @vertvlogs675 I’ve been watching Sreten for a while but I don’t recall if he said a main bearings replacement require the engine to come out. Certainly makes sense if you need to but to be fair, his motor needed to come out regardless since he wanted to recondition the entire short block. @vertvlog676 big thanks for the write up. Certainly helped me bridge knowledge gaps.

Just checked a e36 m3 S50B30 Euro crankshaft (brand new) and no.1 = 59.956mm and no.2 to no.6 are 59.980mm. 59.980-59.956=0.024mm, 0.0254mm is a 0.001”. Just incase I’m called out on this 👍😅

You're welcome!

PS: Look for bent rods! Fuel injectors know to leak and cause hydro-lock on s85

@@LSmiata we have also seen number 6 main fail on an S85. The flywheel end could be the issue in these instances yes.

​@@BrintechCustomswhat do you think about with my m6 manual swap and one mass flywheel? I wqnt to change it to m3 original flywheel. But it would be still unbalanced to the counter weight on the opposite side: the Vibration damper. Does the original m6 manual maybe has a different damper

@@mowa4820 So long as the rotating hardware is balanced this will help. However the other end certainly needs to be effective in doing the dampening required. Ideally a rotating assembly balance is the correct way to address end to end.

You're welcome mate. We share what we can to build a community of engine enthusiasts to discuss and help come up with solutions where possible. Hope the video helped and glad it was informative for you. Cheers

BMW would not have experienced any long term issues like these id imagine, therefore probably never did anything with it

glad you watched - you're welcome and thanks

These things will help

Spring pressure doesnt have that effect

@@Funkyflykiwi you are telling me that having a higher spring rate would require more force to compress?

@@brarautorepairs im saying they dont need more force to turn

Great tips and that does sound like a further improvement again that engines would benefit from. Cheers

56,000kms

2 other factors we feel get these engines to this point. 10w40 is a good number. Penrite 10 Tenths race oil

We replace main and rod bearings for $6k aud. Not expensive compared to a replacement engine at $25k

⁠Right that definitely makes sense. Here in the states you can find an ok used engine for roughly 7-8k aud plus labor for the swap… It’s actually still pretty expensive and I’ve talked my way into just doing the service being a better idea lol

Havent one in our possession yet to know what these are like

I agree however. There are suggestions the engine was initially manufactured with lower than engineering textbook clearances to reduce noise emissions, with oe supplied bearings gaining clearance with subsequent production runs as the problem became more noticeable.... now I know, that sounds like a tall tale if ever there was one but it originated in circles not prone to indulging in repeating rubbish. And legislation often produces unintended and unforeseen consequences.

The lower bed plate has steel inserts embedded in the aluminium also from factory. We havent has an issue from this to date, but it is a good question

Yes have seen them. Good thing. We use our own local Aussie brand ACL bearings which also offer a coating as well. We could have our ACL bearings wpc treated I guess

It is a good idea. Just keep in mind this engine sheers the oil quite fast because of the chain system. It is wise to do 5,000km or less service intervals to keep good functional oils in your engine. As the oil sheers and breaks down in molecular structure, the oil significantly reduces in effectiveness and could be attributed to this topic.

G'day to Sweden. Yes more oil pressure could also help. Another thing we have done is super-polish the crank with an Isotropic process and tumble which turns the running surfaces into mirrors

no, but that is also a thing to consider when they are

We are thinking of running an outboard roller bearing

yes they can

If the engine is original and still running its tight clearances, then a 5w30 or 10w40 is not a bad idea, it also depends on your climate and time of year. Post bearings - 10w40 to 10w60 is good, again depending how hot/cold your climate is during use. We strongly recommend Penrite 10 Tenths race oil.

@@BrintechCustoms ok cool thanks. I'm in Sydney are you based in Melbourne? roughly whats the cost too do the rod bearings on the S85? yeah i only use Penrite in my cars, the Penrite gear oil fixed a clutch binding issue on the M5, BMW changed the gear oil specs too suit newer M5's but I had nothing but issues with it. Penrite all the way. 👍👍

lowest was 56,000kms. All naturally aspirated engines

What evidence is there that oil pressure is the problem? You can’t just pump the bearing clearance up with more oil flow, the oil pressure pales in comparison to the hydrodynamic lift pressure of the oil film in operation. If this was a flow volume problem it would be most apparent in engines with a lot of low speed operation

@@yucannthahvitt251 On VW BXE engines, big end bearing overheats and lead to crankshaft failure due to lack of oil. Adding a lower bearing on main same as upper one increases oil flow to big end and cools the bearing more.

5w50 is what i run now

No we dont see this in the S63 engines?

No real relationship. We see both

We do the process in car. $3800

This may be an improvement, certainly any small changes in the right direction will help this engine live longer

Given the double row pair of timing chains could be a contributing factor to the tension on the nose of the crank, adding oil pressure would also add pressure to the chain tensioners, this could work against the engine.

@@BrintechCustoms I think you’ve misunderstood, I’m talking about priming the oil system with the accusump prior to engine start in this case it would have 30-60 psi upon crank I’m wondering if some of this wear is from cold start mechanical advantage on the snout of the crank via chain tensioners prior to oil pressure being established, just a thought I haven’t checked if they are the same tensioner part number as the S85 either ,,, in my mind it’s establishing is this actually occurring in high speed operation or start up , you would think it would fail faster if it were to occur on governing pressure engine speed, it would be eating the upper 1st main as much big ends ,, I’m not saying your wrong at all just a thought, I’ve checked the mains with spares I have and they show similar wear patterns without doubt, definitely a step in the right direction, as an M engine fan it’s disappointing nobody loves them more than me but I’ve stripped Audi Rs4 engines with 200k and you could re use the bearings with less favourable on paper design …. Rod ratio etc etc … appreciate the videos and lengths you’ve gone to, and I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with peanuts insulting your business on a public forum with absolutely no grounds as it’s very clear from your videos your not beginners. Cheers thanks for the vids

@@simonmuirhead5930 Yes i understand now thank you. Yes there is a common things with an S65 on cold start especially if they have sat for days or weeks, a horrible rattle while oil pressure builds up and fill the VANOS hubs etc. I can see the advantage an a pre-start pressurising of the oil circuit. The S65 tensioner part numbers are 11317839053, and unique to the 65 only. The S85 are different, and single row chains as we know. Thanks for the encouragement, we try our best. Some people just dont have the capacity to have a constructive discussion when it comes to problems. We know that our efforts are recognised and acknowledged in the wider community of those who are here to learn with us. Thank you

$3800

@@BrintechCustoms but, I imagine this is a engine tear down and require to remove the block?

​@@crispcarguru303no can all be done in the car

@@BrintechCustoms more of a pain though?

​@@crispcarguru303much easier than a full extraction and tear down. Cheaper also

Yes this is the other likely scenario. We have also started looking into a support bearing up behind the front crank seal housing.

@BrintechCustoms is this the engine in the M3 ? Looks like if you made a billet end you could fit a bearing .

@@stevesteve7089 yes a bearing support has been looked into

Dont let is worry you too much - just try to plan a routine bearing maintenance process for is and this can be overcome with confidence. The engine deserves it as we also agree they are an amazing machine and generally one of the best Euro V8s built.

just put a S85 in E92 lol

​@@BrintechCustoms Hi, at what mileage would this main bearing becomes an issue? Are there any correlation with mileage? Some comments are suggesting that the production date after 05.08, when BMW switched up the accessory belt is the cause, I personally don't think it's possible.

​@@SuperPandarenmileage alone is not enough of an indication. Just change them regardless

You hit the nail on the head! With 8 pistons driving the crank hard Into the block bedplate, and 4 rows of chain and a serpentine belt system out beyond #1 main, the crank snout is bent up and makes contact with the upper shell. Something is trying to bed the crank

@@BrintechCustoms Yeah,,It's pretty obvious something is,,seeing that #1 bearing worn like that,,Keep up the good work,,cheers

Its a fine balance of maintenance and handling after they leave the factory. Its a 4.0L engine producing 400bhp compared to 6.0L Chev V8 making the same. The rods are narrow and internals under much higher loads. What could have been done better to prevent this by BMW? That is a good question and open to suggestion.

@@BrintechCustoms Ask the Japanese.

@@FairladyS130 maybe, but the Japanese have never made a V8 that comes close to the performance of an S65… the 2UR in the old ISF is the closest and it’s a larger, heavier, lower revving engine that still makes less power so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison.

@@yucannthahvitt251 Obviously if the V8 BMW engine produces significantly more power per liter than other V8 engines it would require different engineering to those other engines to get similar life. Sports motorcycle engines engineering with their notably oversquare engines would be a good start. But perhaps BMW have also tried to make the engine too compact which would restrict bore size and reduce crankshaft length and hence bearing widths. Anyway BMW have stuffed up somewhere in the design.

This is 1 of the critical things yes. 5000km max

Jake - I do not have any record of you as a customer. This is the first we have heard anything from you about any E46 M3 problems. Perhaps contact us and identify yourself so we can discuss in detail what you are talking about.

​@@BrintechCustoms customer was the previous owner. I thought wrongly having brintech on all the receipts was worth something. long story short, csl airbox, rear dif, cooling and some odds and ends. The amount of time and money put in to attempt to fix the issues. redo improperly done work. definitely the joys of buying a old bmw. thank god nothing to do with the engine internally was touched by you.

@@F41LZZz Jake how about contacting us privately with the information of the customer and car. I'd like to know more and see who the tech was at the time. We have had ex staff issues and quality control is important to us.

@@BrintechCustoms the car is now out of state. I certainly bought it with rose coloured sunglasses on. due diligence is primarily at fault on my end. these things are such a hassle to try and fix, and throwing money at it hasn't worked.

@@F41LZZz if you email us and give some specifics of What you are battling with, whether you feel we are capable of helping or not, I'm sure I can shed some light and be of some assistance. We always address any issue given the chance, at this stage I'm still in the dark about what you are talking about. Get in touch Jake and let's work this out

The lowest mileage engine we have had this happen to is 56,000kms (34,000 miles) which happened on a track day after 3 laps. This is the 2nd crank shown in this video with the black burnt journal. KMs / Miles dont seem to be a single factor to go by alone, all we know is the last 5 engines that have come to our shop for repair have been locked and all suffered #1 main bearing failure.