Bolt Action Obsolescence: Mike of BotR and Karl of InRange put this one to rest 

Lets hear it for rail, cars, & air travel.

Its almost like we're all *humans*

That’s an Irishman away from a joke

Two White men conversing in their natural environment.

Karl is a descendant of Vikings, Karl therefore can sail anywhere around the world

Don't forget Othias, and Mae

Henry Kruid You are spot on! A huge miss on my part. Othias & Mae are great sources of detailed information.

I’ll also add C&Rsenall to that awesome list.

lol. I should have read the responses first. :)

Agreed, the low hum kinda ruined it though

Considering modern intermediate cartridges are the equivalent of a long sword per round that can go through typical mild plate armor...😏

😮 Swords are obsolete?

Tell that to the SASR... well, knives at least... :-P

@@MASSspec1990 Take a knife out of their hands and they still have their typical hand to hand and they would wipe the floor with all the cheetos dusters in the comments.

Swords?? Bah! I don't feel fully equipped unless I have my lance with me.

Justin Robert *distant Iraqi hello noises*

Had to have a giggle at that one! 😂

MASH reference? 5 o'clock Charlie, wasn't it? :)

That's just like, your opinion, man.

He has to receive the blessing of Gun Jesus to do so first.

@@johnn8223 exactly the position of The Dude has long been held

Perfect

Would be fitting since Ian is Jesus.

The irony being that it was a better gun than the ones he was issued with in many ways.

Bloke In the Range

@@MaxwellAerialPhotography your pun-fu is strong. I stand corrected.

At least it's not Bloke In Range?

Forgotten Bloke In the Range

Forgotten Block In the Ranch45

And that volley fire is the past!

Baker Tankersley A whole platoon of men firing at a target they can’t see 2,200 yards away with iron sights is a perfectly reasonable use of small arms!

You mean behind the lines... lol

@@HughesEnterprises it's ok theyre automatics

O line infantry tactics

Am I reading that right that for the 2-second 'pop-up' targets the semi-auto was 2.6x more likely to land a hit even though they only fired 33% more shots overall? I'm not sure how MAS-40 could fire 72 shots in only 10 opportunities as that's an average of over 7 shots per apparition. Was it more than one rifleman shooting at the same target? Oh wait, do you mean "also 6 shootings, but against a figure that would make ten 2-seconds apparitions" So they would have a total of 60 times a target would pop up but every 10 pop-ups the test would be paused giving them plenty of time to reload? That means the MAS-40 is shooting - on average - 1.2 times per pop-up. Either loads of pop-ups are being missed entirely (while reloading) and multiple shots are being attempted per pop-up... or only 1 in 5 pop-ups are they even attempting a rapid follow up shot where the semi-auto would be relevant. They'd have to reload as if you're taking a shot every "pop-up" the 5-round mag will run out.

That are very good point, and it's true that semi-automatic is the very true force-enhancer, giving your standard infantryman the effective firepower of a full fireteam. But that can be very much compensated, especially through collective training, if you can provide twice, or ideally four times the number of warm bodies of the opposition in order to win and sustain the superiority of fire. In a sense, you compensate hardware with software (training, discipline and will).

​@@loyp4328 MAS-40 landed +65% more hits compared to the otherwise identical MAS-36, so that's not quite a fireteam (4 riflemen, which would be +300% more hits). That's obviously better but it's not that much better. You see similar differences in hit rate when comparing identical weapons that have either open-sights compared to having low/no magnification optics. In WW2 the British made popular songs complaining about their armaments, they didn't complain about not having semi automatic rifles like the Americans had and as some German infantry units had, they complained about not having enough BREN guns. That was the focus of industrial capacity, make enough BREN guns, the aim was two per section (i.e. 1 every 4 men) as a priority, machine guns just knock the pants off semi-auto rifles.

@@Treblaine i've been looking around and asking questions and the best response i can give you without looking directly at the test reports is yes, it seems that the total number of shots fired for the second series was 72, making about 1.2 shots per apparition, but as it is we lack the time between apparitions, because that low number of shots could be explained by a rapid succession of apparitions, meaning that the shooter would miss some while reloading, or that the time between apparitions was longer and the shooter was making deliberate shots. from other testing, the maximum practical rate of fire of the MAS 40 was shown to be about 3 times that of the MAS 36, and that a good shot can make 3 hits on a target making short apparitions, but all of that was severely limited by the fixed magazine, which was why they started a program for a mag fed rifle about as soon as the MAS 40 was adopted for production (which would have had either a 10 or 25 round magazine on the same pattern as the FM 24/29).

@@quentintin1 If it was only 1.2 shots per apparition (as in only 1 in 5 shots is a 2nd shot even attempted) then the rifle being semi-auto or not would be pretty irrelevant as 80% of the time the follow up shot is irrelevant. Either there's a lot of noise from a small sample size or loads of apparitions are being missed when reloading and then attempting multiple shots per apparition.

Long range snipers are riflemen cosplaying as SPGs ;)

And have a lot of high tech suport gear at the high end

And the mental strength to look an unsuspecting man in the face and end his life. Snipers are good at their jobs because they can do that again and again and again without snapping. Killing someone in battle is much different from sniping. I hear tales of young men turned into a different person when getting home because that kind of killing screws with the mind.

You might be right. Such ruthlessness is a bypass around the mental strength. The difference between overcoming ones horror at doing a murder-of-sorts on someones orders vs not having that horror at all. You will either already have that sociopathy or you will have it forced on you. "ten other police officers, and all fire a half dozen shots into the back of a fleeing black child." you say that like it's a routine occurrence.

@@oron61 the second half did not age well

I know. But I'd say lever release (Savage A22r and even the Verney Carron) is a decent substitute (yes I know its not as a good as an actual semi auto, but hey its what we got). At least we still have Handguns unlike the UK (Ruger 10/22 charger is also another option).

@@trooperburger123, do I look like I got 3000 bucks

@@toddoroi4947 With the way things are you'd be looking at spending more then $3000 for an AR-10 along with the process to get Cat D.

@@trooperburger123 hence "not being able to own an AR-10"

@@toddoroi4947 Yeah it sucks :(. That's why I got the A22r for the time being. They're pretty cheap. There is cat G. Though shooting those firearms depends on your state

ARs have the best bang for buck deals

@Danny lifts hey if it still slings lead it should be fine.

Even heavy barreled bushmasters can be had for less than a grand and sometimes less than 900 bucks.

@Danny lifts an sks is a $59 tool to scare away deer.

@Copperhead Sutton why, when i think of Appalachian deer hunters with sks, do i think, "year round"?

Exunctly :) If I had to grab my Chinesium AK that's "wouldn't want to stand there at 300m accurate" or my No.4 that's probably a consistent 2.5 MOA if I do my bit (it's a really good one) off the rack in a SHTF scenario, it's a total no-brainer!

Proper term for them is willfully obstinate. They know they are wrong but either because they can not or do not want to own or use a semiautomatic rifle for precision work they choose to delude themselves.

If your by yourself & could have only one system the rest of your life you would want a bolt rifle. And yes my truck is a manual shift . Im speaking as a civilian (not war ), I really have no idea.

@Viscous Shear Ongoing contracts? Knights has a recent one for the M110 SASS and H&K is still trying to fulfill the M110 CSASS. This is the Army Sniper program. The current crop of Army M2010 completed manufacturing and fulfillment with their 2558th rifle in 2014. The have a solicitation for bids to overhaul the M2010 but no takers... 🤨

@Viscous Shear You are confused. The M2010 is a .300 Win mag rifle. It is a bolt action. It currently has zero active contracts but it does have a floating solicitation from 2018 with no takers. The M110 Semi Automatic *Sniper* System and the M110 Compact Semi Automatic *Sniper* System both have active fulfillment contracts for procurement in the Army. Both shoot M118LR which is the 175 Grain SMK .308 Winchester. Where did you get 5.56 from that? USSOCOM is Purchasing M110K1 uppers in 6.5 Creedmoor to fit to the M110 SASS lowers they have in inventory to step their capabilities out to longer distances. Again, part of a Sniper program, not a DMR program.

@Viscous Shear Poor B8 M8 I R8 it 0/8.

Just not a Finnish one.

Firearms and weight lifting - following modern doctrine is critical to safety! I got back into weight lifting a little while back for the first time since I had "strength training" as a class throughout high school(it's pretty awesome getting credits for lifting weights, when I would've been doing it after school lol) - needless to say, went to relive my glory days of my perfect technique power cleans; and annihilated my back for about a month because of a measly 90lbs(give or take; I THOUGHT I was 'taking it easy'...) on a terribly out of form body LOL I know, not quite the same as an accidental discharge - but the point remains the same none the less!

As dear old dad said, "It's always loaded, unless you've got the action open with your pinky shoved in the chamber. And even then it's only even odds you can be certain it's not loaded... ALWAYS ASSUME ITS LOADED."

@@nunyabidniz2868 if you got your finger in the breech, it's a half second of inattention to be loaded with half a finger ;)

Battle Rifles aren't really obsolescent, for instance the FN SCAR-H is an extremely popular rifle, and it's a Battle Rifle, the same with the G3. I do understand where you're coming from, especially in the context of the modern battlefield where movement is key, but I think the battle rifle has a while longer than you think.

Gamma Raygun though I can agree that there is still use for a battle rifle (as in a rifle chambered in a full power cartridge) I think the concept of issuing a battle rifle to anyone other than specialists and marksmen is an obsolescent idea. Intermediate caliber rifles like the ar15 and Ak47/74 are much cheaper and easier to train a large army on than even modern battle rifles.

"Bolt actions are obsolete" They aren't. Words mean things. Look at the definition of obsolete. "Battle rifles are obsolescent." ...No. What is this nonsense?

@@matchesburn In terms of warfare, Bolt Actions obsolete.

@@Ben_not_10 I get that. The Assault Rifle will probably always remain the mainstay of a modern army (Until we finally get out phased plasma rifles) I can appreciate how someone could see that outfitting a large number of men with Battle Rifles could be inefficient, but I still think that it's a toss up between the two, and falls on the doctrine or, quite simply, the personal choice of an officer or nation. I think modern NATO troops, more specifically the Baltic states, Eastern Europeans and Germany, have the right idea by using the G3, especially in a war which, ideally for NATO, would stagnate and eventually end in peace, since the hitting harder would definitely be more important than mobility. On the other hand, the American and British armies are fighting mobile enemies in harsh environments, where the light weight of an Assault Rifle and the comparative recoil would be far more beneficial. I think the SCAR-H is the way to go, as (Or atleast, as I heard it) they've been able to reduce the weight of the rifle, while firing full power cartridges.

That guy from C&Rsenal?

@@johnegan7622 I think it's been documented that Othias is a yeti, not Bigfoot.

How to make a great video even better.

Yeah and turns out to be Hickok 45!😂

Missed opportunity

Ville Simonen I beg to differ. Love my semis but when you need 1/2moa or less, Bolt is King.

@@codebebop Yes, i understand your point of view, but what i meant semis are sufficiently accurate to 1000+ meters, which is about the maximum effective range from target recognizing and city/forested area sightline wise. Of course if you want to shoot as small groups as possible bolt guns are king, but i approached the situation from military point of view, where 1/2 moa groups are not necessary.

Horseshit. 7.62 vs. 8.6 wind drift. No real sniper can say this nonsense. First shot is for the money. All the rest is just a failure. No target will stay on the place after first bullet has landed.

@@parv888 First, why such negative attitude? Second we used .338 sako trg.s(TKIV2000), as our main guns, but we preferred semis whenever possible/mission allowed us to use them for their lighter weight and yet still suffient accuracy. Third, there are .338 ar15.s in the marker such as DRD tactical kivaari-line. And my fourth point is that if you miss your first shot, you can still make up for it by fast follow up shot with semis, which is much more difficult with bolt actions. As the truth is that the target does not stay still. And while .338 is much better cartridge for long range shooting, ill give you that but that doesnt me that 1000 meters is not doable with .308/7.62x54r with good scope and good spotter. If there is a reply, i hope it is in more sensible form than typical youtube comments "fuck you" format.

@@villesimonen4481 Sniper job is not shoot many targets in rapid fire. Can You formulate sniper role in the battlefield? Shooting everybody in sight at random order? If you need more than one shot per target, your instructors are bad.

.50 BMG, and those associated rifles, are _not_ sniper or even precision weapons. They are anti-material, you can get longer ranges and higher precision out of bespoke sniper ammunition, .338 Lapua Magnum being the flagship. 1,500m is the sane range that snipers would limit themselves to. Contemporary bolt-action precision rifles have a advantage over a contemporary just-as-accurate semiauto: _price._ Bolt action is easier to make precise for less, but like Mike and Karl say, the british are using a 16in barrel LMT rifle, it doesn't even need a long barrel or fancy locking mechanisms, it just has to be _well made_ and you can get more accuracy out of the weapon than the shooter can use.

@@Verbose_Mode I'm sorry, but you could not be more incorrect or misinformed. Yes, _some_ 50 BMG rifles were designed for an anti-material purpose, such as the Barrett. However _others_ are absolutely, no question _also_ designed to be precision weapons engineer to take out specific point targets from their conception - things like the newer Desert Tech HTI .50, with the McMillan Tac-50 being perhaps the most famous example. And there's a reason why that held the longest confirmed sniper kill record, in the hands of some Canadian and Afghanistan, for many years. In fact I haven't looked recently and it might still hold it. However, even if it was true that there are no .50 BMG sniper rifles - which I have just show not to be the case - my point would still stand. There are absolutely plenty of precision rifles in big calibers like .338 Lapua, .416 Barrett, and .475 CheyTac that benefit from those dimensional savings in field use. In addition, price is not really a consideration here, because we are talking about user interface and technical engineering factors. Price is not a technical factor, it is an element of acquisitions, military management, and often, ultimately, politics. It is simply not appropriate to go into that side of things in this comparison, because it's nearly endless. You can get to a point where the specific country that a firearm is produced in may influence whether a military wants to purchase an adopted or not, and that is clearly not a data point for or against obsolescence, and clearly that has nothing to do with what Karl and Bloke are talking about here. So I will just repeat what I already said in my first comment: For certain large calibers and weapons of a certain mass, when considering the actual military application of said weapons, size and weight considerations may often be a legitimate reason to go with a bolt gun over a semi-auto, even assuming that they are both able to achieve the same level of _practical accuracy._ (And for my purposes here, I will define "practical accuracy" as "being able to hit your usually encountered target at or within your usually expected distances". If we are truly talking about _absolute accuracy,_ then yes even with smaller calibers a bolt gun will _probably_ be able to achieve more precision than an equivalent semi-auto. For example, if we're talking about a 12lb Benchrest Comp .308 rifle, for shooting matches where the difference between .20 and .22 MOA is a game changer, having a manually operated bolt mechanism like that, is going to allow you to be just that much more exacting with the tolerances and clearances in a way that for all practical purposes you cannot be with a semi-auto that you want to be able to run without malfunctioning every other round.)

BMG is acronym for Browning Machine Gun. Intended original use was for killing tanks based on WWI armor. Anti personnel capabilities were secondary consideration. WWII armor pushed 50 BMG to focus on light armor or soft vehicles and personnel. True, the infamous Carlos Hathcock smoked a mother fucker with an M2 in Nam, which shows the capability of the projectile to use in precision formatting. But all platforms firing .50 BMG that aren't the M2 were designed to harness the potential of the projectile in its original use. Barrett's rifle is meant for precision anti material first, anti personnel second. Something like the .338 Lapua is 100% intended for long distance anti personnel application, because both projectile and the weapon system were designed in concert of each other. Ultimately it doesn't matter because artillery will fix your problem anyway.

"I would say that a bolt-action still has sniper and precision applications, but not so much because of accuracy" When it comes to precision long range shooting where the first shot is the only one that matters and if you don't hit with it you weren't properly doing your job (e.g. snipers), then yes, bolt-actions are still king because accuracy and consistency are so required. There's a reason when you get into the actual high precision long range world almost no one - military or civilian - is sporting semi-autos. Because, despite Karl/Ian's pleas to the contrary, bolt-actions are simply more accurate and more consistent. We're talking about ranges where you having a clean bore or your ammunition being in the sun can easily throw off your point of impact by inches or feet. If anyone thinks semis are going to be just as accurate as bolt-actions in that application... they are fooling only themselves.

@Christian Morgan 1:23 *_STOP. LYING. FOR. THEM._* **YOU** are the one that needs to listen and actually apply some nuance and logic and not being intellectually dishonest. "The distances someone like a sniper would engage targets at, is anywhere from 150-800 meters. And that's pushing it." Demonstrably false. Things like .338LM exist and were made to specifically push well over that range. You are, again, lying. "Modern semi auto rifles(Like the M110, HK G28, MK20, ect) " ...Are DMRs and battle rifles, not sniper rifles. Intellectually dishonest to a fault. "Engagements past 800 meters are rare." Snipers are rare. "You should really listen to what they are saying." If Karl told you to jump off a cliff, you'd probably ask him which one. Stop being a sycophant and think for yourself, or at all, for once. "For a sniper, 500+ meters is long range." Lies. "Take Chris Kyle for example. He is the outlier of snipers." If you were thinking for yourself, you'd also realize that using an outlier as a common example is a bad idea. Also, Chris Kyle is... "controversial" to say the least. This is from Kyle's own memoir: _Our ROEs [Rules of Engagement] when the [Iraq War] kicked off were pretty simple: If you see anyone from about sixteen to sixty-five and they’re male, shoot ’em. Kill every male you see. That wasn’t the official language, but that was the idea._ "We're talking real world, practical shooting." You and Karl both don't even comprehend those words you use and repeat them like a mantra. Buzzwords to avoid being tied down to nuance. It's cancerous. And I despise it.

Thanks, I'll go watch that one, I'm sure it will be interesting

It's all about fulfilling the requirements at a low cost. A sniper rifle needs to fire reliably and accurately at long distances. A bolt-action can do that very well. A semi-auto will do those things about as well, but gives you the advantag of quick follow up shots. But that's not really all that important. It's a more efficient use of funds to buy a cheaper bolt action than a semi auto and redirect those savings to an area where they'll make a bigger difference.

I will respectively disagree with that. Some US snipers are deployed with a Knight's Armament M110 with a $25,000USD price tag for the full kit and some (but not many) are deployed with M82/M107 Barrett's which at my last check was up around $18,000USD for the military kit and then the users have an (for all intensive purposes) limitless stash of ammo to practice with and be sure that they are the best. "Bean counters" are not why bolt actions are still employed on the fields of battle in specific roles. I think the environmental factor was not taken into account here. Unless the military is doing something magical with direct impingement (DI) rifles that the public doesn't know, there is a reliability concern for the SNIPER role and semi-auto rifles. I have jammed semi auto DI rifles from debris but I don't know if I have ever jammed a bolt action from debris. When your mission is to deliver a projectile with as little error as possible I think the K.I.S.S. ideology is deployed and less moving parts and simple mechaniams win out. There's probably only a 1:1000 chance the semi auto will jam but there is practically no chance of the bolt jamming. If I need to make a follow up shot, I want to KNOW I can make it rather than assume my gun will function properly so I can make it. Murphy's Law runs rampant in these scenarios and anything I can do to take that out of the equation is worth it for the sniper role. However, this is just my opinion on it and I'm only offering it as a different view of this discussion. I don't have any personal military experience and I am only a gun enthusiast with a fair number of bolt action and semi auto rifles. I don't think bolt actions are obsolete (yet) because I do know it's a lot more difficult to get a semi-auto rifle to shoot very accurate (0.25MOA) than it is to get a bolt action to do the same. It's only a matter of time until semi-auto's get there but until then I think the bolt action still has its place in the sniper/precision marksman role.

Well that and there are very few advantages semiautomatics usually bring to sniping you typically don't want to take multiple follow up shots from the same position because you want to keep the enemy uncertain of your location lest they send a mortar or artillery round your way. So unless you're sniping without fear of the consequences of your position compromised semi-automatic function is often essentially superfluous.

Alex Waltman There is a reason the various military branches started dusting off old M14's, and threw scopes on them. A tuned M14 can hit any target within 7.62x51's effective range. The DI AR-10 style guns are even more accurate than those. Point being, by the time you reach out far enough for the difference between a 3/4-1/2 MOA gas-gun (easy to do with AR-10 pattern guns) and a .25 MOA bolt-gun matters, the 7.62 isn't going to do much when it hits anyways. .50 bmg might be a little different, as that round hits hard way on out there, but as stated in this video, shots taken at those kinds of distances are rare. I understand your point on reliability, but there comes a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, I think most precision semi auto rifles are to that point reliability wise. Semi's have less recoil, and don't require a bolt to be manually run, so you can get back on a missed or second target much faster. And with a suppressor, the enemy isn't going to figure out where you are shooting from, just that they are being shot at when the bullet flies by. Especially if there is other shooting going on, which is highly common. One major advantage for carrying a semi auto precision rifle is less about quick follow up shots while hidden, and more about what happens when moving from spot to spot. Don't know about you, but if I was moving a few blocks over, and ran into some AK wielding enemy's, I would much rather have a 20 rnd box mag M110 over a 5-10 round bolt gun. You would probably be better off pulling out your Barretta M9 / Sig M17 if you had a bolt gun, and an AK vs a handgun is not a good idea. There is probably some value left in a .50 bmg/ultra long range magnum sniper rifle being a bolt gun, when you are going after a specific individual, and plan to take one shot and boogie, but most of your precision shooting is happening with 1000 yrds, in a target rich environment, which is well within the capability of a semi auto 7.62.

@@fnkdtnk I'm not going to really argue anything you posted as I don't think you're wrong but there are a few things I would note (and I'll probably find out I was misinformed). I thought the military was dusting off the M14 and converting them to the Mk 14 EBR because of the diminished reliability troops were seeing on the DI platform like the M110 and Mk12. Again, I'm not stating this as fact but as something I am recalling from memory so I may be wrong. Second I agree with you ending statement about wanting a auto loading rifle over a bolt of you came in contact with insurgent but I think this situation is more likely to be encountered by a squads designated marks and not really by a sniper. I think if a sniper is getting into a close combat fire fight then he's done something seriously wrong but then again that's also why the spotter carries a M4/M16. I don't really have a pony in this race so its not worth arguing about. I think bolts would still have a place on the battle field but however you look at it, both have pros and cons and either would serve a sniper or designated marksman well.

There is some truth to that, but also some examples of autos that have great merit. Like the Barret.50 cal (and other larger calibers). Heavier, but softer shooting, and quicker follow up shots. Although, that comes at a literal price- they ain’t cheap.

@@armyofshea7941 true, but the barret self loading rifles are also significantly heavier, and less accurate

@@alaskajohn907 That may be true, but large calibers are mainly meant for anti-material role not man-sized targets so volume of fire (especially moving target) is worth the trade-off for slightly worse accuracy.

For the new anti tank/VBIED rifles 12.7 an 14.5mm, a bolt action works but the target is a up armoured car.

@@alaskajohn907 but the barret 50cal isn't a sniper rifles per say it's an anti-material rifle

Mosins are a blast to shoot but people circle jerk so much over them the price inflation is ridiculous

But but but... Gun Jesus says otherwise!

Yes and no...it can still have a place but I'd prefer not taking my eyes off target or finger off the trigger. With a semi you could fire 3 to 5 rounds in a fraction of the time a bolt gun could and still be gone after people went looking where the shots came from.

@@Aliyah_666 yeah except when you need a larger cartridge, 300 Win during my time, now 338 and some other stuff

Darkthrone is arguably the best black metal band and it's just two guys...

I play the kettle drum in our town marching band,does that count.

@@blackprince4074 do you do it in a way that embodies the trve blackened essence of pure evil?

People underestimate it, hence Karl's surprise when I noted that I'm often panting at the end of a mad minute

Well I can see the Garande being fatiguing just from how heavy of a weapon it is.

My '03 Springfield is smooth as glass. I can tuck it in and shoot all five shots in one second. Yeah, I'm used to it, but the point is, polish your bolt and use some grease, and your BA is only as limiting as your mag capacity. Less likely to be confiscated by politicians, who should be afraid of the public.

I'm convinced bolt-actions have heavily contributed to my carpal tunnel. Working a bolt-action quickly (especially a cock-on-open) for extended periods of time is not just tiring but legitimately painful.

I'm a German reenactor, in battles there isn't a huge advantage for the Garand since it's usually over 50 yards. Everyone is trying to make slow accurate shots with rifles because the Machine Guns are where the firepower is at. Cover ,tactics, and machine guns usually supersedes the rifle choice.

As a hunter myself, i choose self-loading. Your points are all valid but i like the reduced recoil and faster potential follow-up shots.

@@antongrahn1499 I do love how I cycle the action when I get that shot that lands precisely where I aimed it. It feels like perfection. It reminds me so much of any of those old guys in war movies where they pull the trigger after meticulously calculating their targets. A few days ago I went to the range and fired some subsonics in my AR. It didn't cycle the action but it was super quiet. Since I was wearing hearing protection it sounded like it came out of a military movie, like zero dark thirty or shooter. I love the cool factors behind all this stuff lol

@@erickolb8581 from a civilian perspective, cool factor is def important i agree. My last slot in the weapon safe is currently occupied by a m/96 swedish mauser. Its just a cool thing.

or have a reliable (largely an oxymoron) drum, etc.

Check out the history of the Garand: during testing the U.S. Army had tests of relative accuracy, volume of fire, etc. between the Garand & the M1903. There was no question the advantage incurred by the self-loader [and that was with the early gas-trap model, with all its faults!]

Shooter: *Borks Reload* Me: *OOOOF!*

how many shots are required in one minute to be effective? who's going to bring the ammo when u run out?

@@dereklangseth9485 It's not so much "how many to be effective" as "Here, this rifle gives you a speed bonus so you can take more time to aim & get more/better hits while still pacing the slower alternative."

It's tragic isn't it

It's just that way because the Bloke mostly shoots Sturmgewehrs in Switzerland

more likely be screamed at by the other uk shooters "why do you need an ar-15? this is not america / you are not the police " etc etc fudd bullshit

Basically they tell you that your plan is good if you are exceptional at hiding and camouflaging and you haven't got anything more modern.

@@nirfz got to invest all my skillpoints into Marksmanship and Sneak

@@norwegianwiking Get a good optic. Biggest force multiplier in modern combat gunnery is the advent of cheap, rugged & reliable optics.

@@norwegianwiking sorry to tell you, my brother on the other side of the border, but if you tried, you will die wishing your government didn't pull out of the SPFH77B Archer deal as you got spotted in the thermal sights by some pimpled Swedish 19yo conscript in a CV90 fire controller vehicle who lazed your position and sent a data link text message requesting a set of red hot 155mm airburst love in your general location... because fuck that grid square in particular...

@@SonsOfLorgar So, the Norwegian Viking's first target is a pimple. Plook.

Not always but sometimes they have rifles they can use on both roles. The m110 is a good sniper AND dmr.

They also use AKs if they can

They use PKMs

My platoon alone picked up 2 SMLEs and a No. 4 off of weapons caches in afghanistan this past year. They still use them. Sonetimes they even ghetto weld thermal/nv optics to them to shoot guys in the dark, which is fairly common.

@@atadbitnefarious1387 that's really neat. I'd love to see some pictures of the bubba'd up enfields

@@atadbitnefarious1387 its again a case of they use them because they have them if you gave them a Remington 770 scope package from Wal-Mart they would think it a gift from the gods

Try not to conflate Fudd with Luddite. The Luddites are the ones shedding tears of frustration at being outmatched by quality Military issued SASS. Fudds are the ones that qualify an anti-firearm opinion with "I support the Second Amendment, but...(insert statement about not needing such and such for hunting)."

Deading a deer.

What if your first name was Vick?

Lol what? Ever shoot that thing prone?

My, she was yarr.

fsmoura the darkthrone of the gun world

It'll probably last more than one swing while the wood would splinter

You don't need to use your rifle as a club with the AR since you've already ventilated your target

There is also a Sgt in Fallujah that proved an M4 makes an adequate club, I believe he also got to use his knife

Thats what your bayonet is for!

That hole in the stock of a k98 for the sling right at the weak point probably makes it the worst bolt action club lol

xthetenth yep, the ability for squaddies to break something as simple as a rock is legendary. This was the reason why the SUSAT sight was a massive lump of aluminium

Good points, but people generally die easy. Not much use for large calibers, with the exception of hunting big game.

bludmakesgrassgrow or strangely super difficult to kill. One shot stops with .22lr from a pistol is somewhere near 65% and that number goes up to well over 80% with a single follow up hit. Still....... best to avoid the whole situation entirely.

Accuracy, overall size/weight = Bolt gun wins

Because they are full of shit lol

Wut? He fired 24 with the M1. I fired, on the same day, 26 with the No.4 with a few issues. I've since shot 29 with an SMLE. So I'm not sure how his performance "crushed" mine ;)

@@BlokeontheRange Not you of course, I think the world record is 39. But wasn't the military marksman designation for 15?

@@BlokeontheRange I stand corrected. 24 beginner vs. 26 or 29 for an expert is still a huge advantage for a military. And isn't your M1 Garand score 43 or more?

The confirmed British Military record was 36. There's an allegation of 38, but nobody has found any concrete evidence that the alleged gentleman ever existed. And no, I did 39 with the M1.

Garand?

@@byutube4360 Just a joke. I have an SKS.

McMillan tac 50 has the 2nd longest record. The longest shot record (with a confirmed hit) belongs to a Britt using a .338 Lapua bolt action.

@@FinalLugiaGuardian Those were old records

I think people's views about lever actions are warped by the tricked out ones used for cowboy action shooting at large, close steel targets. Get a non-tricked-out one in a proper cartridge and that'll change.

@@BlokeontheRange I mean, they still have a reasonable rate of fire. Certainly they could have feasibly been used in WWII, if some kind of box magazine design was used. The rate of fire isn't as fast as a semi-auto, but it's not bad. And certainly better than a bolt action, even right out of the box. It's just a better rate of fire. A semi-auto is better than a lever action for sure, but I'd rather have a lever action than a bolt action for time on target and rate of fire. And if there was some kind of box magazine, that would solve the need to feed into a side gate.

"Well mustang's shot down more enemy fighters than the F-35. Therefore it's just as good!!! Same with that utterly shitty Soviet Biplane that the "Night Witches" used to bomb NAZIs, it's almost as good as an F-117!! And if you disagree you just can't dogfight or fly!" 😉

There are reasons to use small piston or jet engines aircraft for CAS missions . They do make a difficult target to hit with small arms fire when low and can have a better loiter time than larger aircraft . Add to that lower cost of purchase then for small countries they make sense . For example an A-1 skyraider.

edmundscycles1 i agree BUT ... close air support is another ‘kettle of fish’ entirely from fighter interception and escort, etc. I specifically excluded the Typhoon, Thunderbolt and Skyraider from my reply.

@@michaelguerin56 big props for saying typhoon . Cracking attack platform that . Yes as interceptors piston is pointless. But unlike bolt action rifles they definitely have their place in modern milatery. Even USAF are starting a light CAS aircraft programme that includes a refit of OV-10 bronco .

edmundscycles1 i saw something about the Bronco. If you put in a slightly more powerful engine, to enhance manoeuvrability, such a light aircraft could make sense. Funniest thing about the Typhoon though, is that they intercepted and killed FW190s and it probably took at least three FW190 ground attack aircraft to do the same amount of damage as aTyphoon.

I can't. Not even embarrassed to admit that I can't see a human figure at even 400 yards with naked eyes. I don't think I have really terrible eyes, but I do wear glasses with a slight prescription. 🤷 I need a scope to go past 200 yards. I have absolutely no idea how IV8888 and Bloke go out 400-600 yards with iron sights. Maybe I'm just crap.

@@mannys9130 it's easy to shoot 600m with iron sights, hitting what you are shooting at is a bit harder though.

That's what 81mm mortars are for...

Only if they are wearing bright yellow/orange FLURO clothing!

@@nunyabidniz2868 nah, 120mm mortars is the way to go. Or, 84mm recoil compensated rifle.

Hatcher makes no comment on German ammo, but on the British and French ammo the AEF had been using prior to the M1917 MG's coming into the line.

@@BlokeontheRange Indeed, I am corrected. For those who wish to follow, see Chapter 3 of Hatchers Notebook.

I was an M60 gunner in the very early 2000s and we still studied and practiced limited indirect fire techniques from the tripod with a T&E. Plunging fire remains a standard class of fire with respect to the ground and can be used to engage targets behind cover. When plunging fire is practiced on a range, any nearby air traffic causes a ceasefire call due to the altitude the rounds apex at and, of course, the ricochets. Later, having been in a role where I was issued a bolt action M24 for precision engagement, and having engaged targets beyond 1000m with M118LR, I can say that they remain excellent/precise weapon systems, but they really are obsolete in most battlefield settings.

No. It's gas operated ejection that they have banned.

@@BlokeontheRange Surely that was yonks ago when semi auto rifles (gas & recoil) were banned. This spring ban was new on the gossip lines in May.

No. The rifles concerned eject automatically and are then released with a thumb lever ("lever release") or with a press on the trigger ("Mars"). Automatic ejection was not banned in 1988, only semiautomatic operation. Straight-pull AR15's where you pull back the cocking handle and let it go under spring pressure are unaffected: www.thetruthaboutguns.com/uk-bans-lever-release-action-and-mars-non-semi-auto-rifles/

@@BlokeontheRange Thanks for the link, I was totally oblivious of the LRA and MARS systems. I'm just an old coincé dans la boue Lee Enfield guy. :-))

@@BlokeontheRange Am I right in thinking that the number of crimes committed with Lever Release/Mars rifles was essentially zero? At least, I don't recall hearing about any.

Trench shovel ftw. 😎

Glock with bayonet and drum mag

Death Korps of Krieg intensifies

I would say no... because melee is never completely of the table. it just not something you expect to happen everyday in a modern war but going we will not train our men for melee is just plain silly. now do we fit our men whit swords or just have them train to use there entrancement tools /woodcutting axe as improvised melee weapons and design said tools to also function adequate for said melee roles. I would be hard pressed to find one nations army who manual for at least one of there axe/shovle/tool do not have a chapter on how to use this Item in melee still in print and doctrine.

Yes, if you're a country equipping your armed forces for a modern battlefield, but it's a stupid discussion as every modern army realised that decades ago. But all the "range experience" of civilian shooters means nothing when you consider how little effective fire is actually produced by the individual infantry soldier in modern conflict, most rounds fired still miss, that's just the way it is.

@@jonprince3237 I believe stats for the us were something like 250,000 rounds per enemy killed or something in that range.

@@JohnDoe-nf7up it can vary massively from one conflict to another, but even today I don't think it's really appreciated by many who haven't had that personal experience, how different military style target shooting actually is to real conflict and what factors are actually of key significance.

@@jonprince3237 they also don't understand that keeping a group pinned down to get around to flank them can often be as useful as carefully picking them off. They've also never spent days in the field with little to no rest. When you've never actually done it heavy recoiling, slow firing bolt actions can look usable.

Most typical sniping (niche world record shots excluded) takes place inside 500 yards with multiple targets the Russians nailed this down when they adopted the SVD a handy accurate enough semi auto with good optics will beat a bolt gun every time

In the Delta there were plenty of VC with nothing better than Moisin-Nagant

As I was saying, in the Delta we ran across a lot of VC carrying nothing better than old Russian bolt-action carbines. They made up for their lower firepower with guts. We killed more of them than they did of us, but they were surprisingly effective, and last time I checked, they won the war.

Because as much as I love bolt actions, they are less effective on the battlefield.

That's like saying why not have both a car and a horse-drawn carriage. One simply does what the other does significantly better, and also does a lot of other things.

@@samnottheotherone4363 So because in your fantasy battlefield you are stacking bodies so you can't own a bolt action? Own and train with both. It's fun.My gun cabinet has room for many types of tools.

@@roadhouse6999 This is America. You can own and train with more than one weapon. If you are not capable of that, that's your problem.

@@gator7082 I meant for use on the battlefield, not civilian ownership. Sorry for the confusion. Yeah, plenty of reason for a civilian to own a bolt rifle.

In some environments, but the lessons from our current conflicts are clouded by abysmal AA capabilities among the OPFOR and the universal desert setting (i.e. a horrible place to be on the ground with enemy planes overhead). The lessons from Vietnam showed ongoing value for the scout sniper's rifle AND radio, and while technology has absolutely progressed since then, the massive differences in terrain and NVA AA capability also play a role in the differing conclusions. For instance, look at Karl on Tactical Rifleman talking about his exhaustive, taxpayer-sponsored knowledge of where EXACTLY to shoot a MIG-25 with a Barrett to put it out of service. Interestingly, he also speaks at length in the same video about his preference for semi-auto guns while sniping (the Mk 25 and the Barrett).

The fact it has a bolt does not make it bolt action. The traditional description of a bolt action firearm is a manually cycled rifle. The listed weapons do not match that description.

This description is not precise enough. Although I was wrong, since the Needle Rifle of Dreyse was technically the first bolt action gun, the Gatling Gun is considered to be a "bolt action gun with mechanical function". So this is an extended description of a bolt action to categorize this type of gun. And no, they are not machine guns, because the Gatling and all its successors do not use the energy of the shot fired to operate the system, which defines an automatic, respectively a machine gun.

@@ringowunderlich2241 I feel your comparison stating bolt actions aren't obsolete because of miniguns is almost like saying the Model T isnt obsolete becasue of the Ford Explorer. The contents of this video was specifically manually operated bolt action rifles. Those are obsolete. Electrically powered miniguns are are whole different beast (even if they may technically fit under the umbrella of bolt operated).

@@cowishere8222 but those bolts are operated by electrical energy so it’s why it’s treated as a machine gun legally while hand cranked ones aren’t

@Sheldon Robertson wow that is quite surprisingly inexpensive, thanks!