Great info. I went now to my basement to search in my trash box and found 3 of those old network cards with jumpers I wanted to throw away. 😂. So they will definitely get cleaned now and directly to my collection 👍🏻
This is crazy awesome! I was having trouble getting the old bios in my retro rig to deal with larger CF cards and it already has one of those beautiful Etherlink IIIs installed. Looking forward to enhancing my rig without sacrificing one of the 3 ISA slots. Thanks for the Videos!
I never thought about using old network cards for custom ROM boots! I trashed some of them years ago thinking I would never use it. Ugh. Thanks for a great video!
Hi Jorge! This topic doesn't seem to be interesting for the most people, however, I find XTIDE quite exciting and very helpful. I'll do more videos about it, there is still enough to tell about it :)
The network card that you used as a demonstration (the first one with jumpers) works in a 8 bit slot. I am using the same card in my Tandy 1000 SX and TX.
I didn't even know there was a dos utility to setup the rom address on older NIC cards. Anyway, I think the best is to use the highest address range, to leave a big hole between xtide and video rom, to allow config.sys + autoexec.bat optimization
C8000 to CFFFF is usually safe to use for XT-IDE, but I'd recommend running CheckIt 3 or something else that can map the system's memory before setting the ROM address. What you displayed there for the system memory map isn't entirely universal. Tandy's especially are a little bit different in how they manage their upper memory blocks, particularly the ones with DOS/Deskmate in ROM.
@@OpenGL4ever Nothing is truly "PC compatible," except for IBM PC's. The point is to be close enough that you can make your software/hardware work on it.
@@BlackEpyon Wrong! The first none IBM PCs did a lot of things differently. This especially applies to the BIOS and the entry points for functions and the address location of hardware. Later the compatibility was increased and the first PCs appeared on the market that were advertised with words like IBM compatible.
@@OpenGL4ever You're gonna have to give some very specific examples, because the only "PC compatible" that I'm aware of that wasn't "100% PC compatible" was the fricken PC-Jr, and the Tandy 1000 fixed those issues.
@@BlackEpyon Search for the early days. Some stole the IBM BIOS. Other tried to become compatible. But the goal was not legally achieved until a little later, when Phoenix Technologies reimplemented the BIOS using the Clean Room method and thus had a clean BIOS without copyright infringements for the first time. This was the case from about July 1984. The PCs from other manufacturers were compatible with the IBM PC in some way before, but not compatible enough or they had a 1 to 1 illegal copy of the IBM BIOS. For example, they all had their own MS-DOS version, adapted by Microsoft.
Great video and great presentation. It makes the subject available to understand without a lot og prior knowledge of addressing. I have a NIC that exactly matches the one in the video (before the pile of NICs). I got two roms from a friendly fellow old pc entusiast, one with ide_i386 and one with ide_i386l (both version/revision R604 padded with zeroes). When I boot my 80486 seimens nixdorf industry pc, the award BIOS 3.20, rev 3.10 does as usual, and after floppy seek nothing happens. XTIDE does not load. Harddisks are set to none in the bios, which doesn't offer much else. One page for time, floppy and harddisk config. One page with System load (STANDARD/DISK LOCK/NONSTANDARD), Shadow BIOS ROM, Cache, serial and parallel port config and controller config. Serial and Parallel ports are disabled. Floppy and HD Controller are enabled (IDE High speed configured). Any idea, why XTIDE doesn't load? I can view the ROM in CheckIt (the part that CheckIt allows). The address space I chose (D0000) is free. I put the NIC in jumper-mode to ensure that jumpers decides the settings. The NIC uses IRQ3 and address 0x2A0. Any suggestions is appreciated
Hi. In the 99% of the cases this was due to not padded, or wrongly padded ROM. Just a week ago or so, another watcher reported the same issue and he was sure, that he padded it right, but in the end it turned out to be something wrong with it. I don't know what exactly, but he used some programmer, which has a function to automatically pad the ROM. It turned out to not work properly. It is very important to pad the ROM with zeros, or the checksum will mismatch and the computer will not load it. In the software for TL866II+, which I'm using this works fine, but I don't know which software your "friendly fellow" used. May be it's worth it to double check the padding. Second, which size of the EPROM are you using? After I made the video, I found some cards, where 64k EPROMs (and sometimes even 32k) didn't work. I don't remember, if I tried 27C512 (64k) EPROMs in this NIC, which you are talking about, but 27C256 (32k) do definitely work.
@@necro_ware Thanks a bunch. I'll find a way to proceed. Good pointer on the ROM size and the padding :-) I also take it to mean that an old school BIOS and a 80486, labelled as "industry" shouldn't be a showstopper.
Great series. Just what i was looking for. Do you now how the speed on an 8bnit XT-IDE card (with IDE interface) is compared to an typical 16bit IDE card?
It depends, not all are the same, but generally speaking it is of course slightly slower, because the 16-bit access has to be split in two 8-bit parts.
I've been messing around with mostly DLINK cards and there's a mix of 28pin and 32pin sockets. Are most NICs generally M27Cxxx compatible for their EPROMs? I don't have an EPROM erase so I've been using EEPROM equivalents but so far, it either hangs the system or the option ROM is not recognised.
Im going to give this a try once i can write to some eeproms. I noticed I have one of the same NIC that you had in your pile. Its the one with the angled PCB at the end and the intel FA82595TX chip. Have you found a driver for this card? Also have you ever tried to update the xtide bios through any network cards or will this only work with the custom ide xt boards?
Hi, I'm usually using my TL866II+ for such things, this is one of my favorite devices in my workshop :) You can not only write PROMs with it, but also GALs, MCUs etc. You can check logic ICs and more. It's so versatile, I just love it. Anyway, I could program EEPROM with one network adapter, but don't remember which one. I had so many back then and I didn't make a note, which one I used. In regards of the Intel NIC, yes I got it working in DOS using NDIS drivers and MS Client. Just as described here: wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/Networking_FreeDOS_-_NDIS_driver_installation The drivers are available at vogonsdrivers.com, if I remember right...
Could you do demo of this process for an actual XT class machine? I'm having trouble getting the right steps with an AOpen RTL8109AS/NE2000 NIC, a PII/400 config host, and a homebrew8088 with a V20, 640KB of RAM. The AOpen setup.exe can't write the jumperless config on the homebrew8088 because it tries to make sure the C800h segment exists. My PII writes the AOpen config, xtidecfg reads the W27E257 EEPROM (that I wrote with a TL866-3G), but then can't write back the final config. Maybe I'm doing something else wrong.
I know, the 29Cxx series is also a drop in replacement for EPROMs. I have all of them, but I also have a lot of EPROMs, which I use for things, which I don't need to change too often.
Very nice series of video :) Now I know a 16 bit card that work in XT and have rj45 : the 3com etherlink III :) Now I have to say, I don't know if the rim itself works, but it's yet again a good way to have networking on your old 8088 !
That's cool, did you test it? As far as I know, this card is kind of working in 8-bit slots indeed, but the original software was 286 and above only. However, I found following project for XT compatible drivers for this card. Unfortunately, didn't test it yet, because I currently have no XT mainboard here. The oldest x86 mainboard I have is currently a 286 :( github.com/hackerb9/3C509B-nestor
@@necro_ware I got mine working in my XT years ago ! I found a post on vcfed where someone modified the original packet driver to work on 8088/8086. I have uploaded it here since and never had any problems with it :) www.win3x.org/win3board/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=281 Also, now I'm pretty sure XTIDE for 8088 will work with a 3com etherlink III in a 8bit slot because I got it to work on my 286 in a 8bit slot :) (more about this in the other comment)
Cool, that's good to know. I have multiple of that cards and will keep at least one in case I'll get a XT one day again. I'm also curious about that drivers on the github :)
Hi Necroware!! I have a small question about XTIDE... I have tried to use the BIOS from www.xtideuniversalbios.org/binaries/r604/ide_386.bin to flash an 27c256 but no luck with it. For the NIC it is like nothing was there, but using code.google.com/archive/p/xtideuniversalbios/downloads/XTIDE_Universal_BIOS_v2.0.0_beta3.zip/ide_at.bin like you used, I could boot the PC and the boot rom was recognized. Do you know why? Did you tried out the r604 version? I am a little confused. I have ordered some 27c128 from ebay to see if it does the same. At the moment I only have 27C256... Many thanks!!! Jorge P.S. I want to use it on an 386DX40 build :) . Small update, 27C128 arrived and tested, same thing, with the new r604 version of xtide bios it is like there is no bootrom on the NIC. Does nothing. Any idea? Thanks! Another small update, we need to run the xtidecfg.com and load the desired bin file, no need to change options, just select the save file option and then we can burn it in the usual way
This 3-year-old comment helped me figure it out. You can't just download the r* version and burn it, you need to generate your own with xtidecfg. Thank you!!
Well, yes and no. You are right, if you are talking about MS-DOS 6.22 fdisk, it can't handle hard drives bigger, than 512MB indeed. However, you can create partitions using FreeDos, Windows or Linux (as I'm usually doing) and then install MS-DOS 6.22 on it, if you want so. However, each partition should not exceed 512MB, but you can make many of them, if you need to. But if you run DOS only, 512MB is huge anyway :)
I'm currently trying to do this with a 3Com etherlink III, but I'm struggling to get the ROM working. The smallest ROMs I have around are 27C256 roms, but that shouldn't be a problem, is it ? Every time, I try to apply changes, and no matter what address I choose, the utility says "Either there is no boot PROM installed on the adapter or the selected boot PROM base address is being used by another device or software installed in your computer". I can save the changes, but the card doesn't see the ROM nonetheless. I've tried two 3coms and multiple EPROMs, it just doesnt want to work ... :( Also I'm using the config utility but it's v3.8 instead of 3.2. This is my best bet now ...
Hi and sorry for the late answer, yesterday I was AFK the whole day. Is your card the same as I'm using in the video? 27C256 is absolutely ok, it is just very important to pad your ROM with zeros, so the first 12KB are the binary ROM data and the rest 20KB must be zeros. I tested this approach with different network cards, not only 3Com. Which computer are you using to setup the network card? You could try to take any other 386/486 and setup the PROM address there. Then put the network card into desired machine and give it another chance to boot.
By the way, it is not necessary to have the PROM IC in the network card during the setup. You should be able to set everything first, turn the PC off and then put the IC into the socket. Just as I've shown in the video.
So I changed that and it worked right away ! thanks a lot, I didn't think it'd cause such weird issues but hey you said to NOT do that so I am the one to blame x) Now my ICL 286 works like a charm with a seagate it's not supposed to run properly :D
I think I need help. Mainly technical help :) I have 27c128 and 27c256 type EPROMs, I borrowed an UV eraser and an old, but working programmer. I downloaded the binaries, burned to the EPROM, I have several different network cards but still no success. I can setup the NIC, the EPROM is mapped into the memory, I can see it in debug, it shows in checkit as "Unknown ROM", the content seems to be good, but nothing happens at boot time. I tried padding with FF and with 00 and still the same. For the 27c256 I copied the padded file twice and burned it that way. I tried the (under) 8k version and the 16k version, no luck, same effect. Network card always set to the proper EPROM size, it shows in memory as Unknown ROM and does not run.
Hi Norbert. It's a bit complicated to troubleshoot it remotely. Where did you get the images from? There are actually 8k and 12k versions, at least the last time I was looking. Which machine did you use XT, AT, 386? Which image did you use? Did you activate ROM BOOT option/jumper for your network adapter? Which network adapter is it? Let's first try to peek around ;)
@@necro_ware Thank you for your answer! The .bin files are from the official xt ide universal bios page, the last version. I tried the smaller and the larger versions too, with a 486 and a P1 motherboard, same effect. My cards have no jumpers, but I found the DOS utility for all of them, and the ROM can be found in its designated place (C000 or anything I set). I may try to compile it myself next.
You usually don't need to compile it yourself. I did, but just out of curiosity. Anyway, the original bin files should work, I tried them many times yet. Also don't set the ROM address to C000, since usually this is a VIDEO ROM address. Take D000, or D800 instead.
Oh, and by the way. I just had a network card for the first time, which only supports 27C64 EPROMS. They simply didn't connect any address lines above A12 and shorted A13-15 to logical 1, which limits the size of used EPROM to 8K. I was able to use 27C127 however after I wrote the ROM starting in the second part of the EPROM. But this was the one and only card, where I had this issues.
@@necro_ware it seems like I found a possible solution: I padded the longer binary with zeros to 16k, after that I used the configurator, loaded the .bin, selected auto config, saved the file over, and then burned into a 16k eprom. this now works in several NICs (and now it is "Adapter ROM" in Checkit instead of "Unknown ROM"). Thanks for the answers and keep up the good work on your videos!
6:33 I like using ide_at.bin 8kb version due to it's small size and frees up precious Upper Memory! I never seen't no Boot menu so I'm not sure it's even needed? I can select which boot I would like during detection stage (A B C D etc) and then use a MBR Boot Manager like Plop Boot Manager or Smart Boot Manager.
In the standard 12K version there is not only the boot menu, but also support for memory mapped and DMA based cards like JRIDE and XTCF. Furthermore, I compile usually my own XTIDE and experimenting with different options. The 8K of upper memory never bored me much. It was still plenty for me, but I can imagine, that there are cases, where you could need more.
@@necro_ware ****nods**** I seem to remember an XTIDECFG tool that bumped the image size from 12k to 16k. all very neato! rewatching the boot from sound card vid ;) doesn't work well w/pnp at boot time :L heh
Has anyone been able to use an Intel branded ethernet card for the xtide bios? I have several all sorts of models but can't seem to get any to work. On the good side I have quite a few DLinks that work perfectly..
@@necro_ware With persistance I finally got them (several different models) to work. Needed to run the Softset utility but in dos with no drivers loaded. :) Thanks for your inspirational videos.
@@necro_ware Correction: 8K -> 2764 works (ide_at.bin)...but I can't get the 12K ->27128 (ide_atl.bin) to work at all, checksum error. hmmm. Unfortunate as I'd like the menu
No way 🤣 I made some experiments and left couple of EPROMs in the summer sun for days and it didn't flip a bit. You need 270nm UV light and you don't get it in the sun.
In order to get this to work with my system (a Suntac 286 Easy Data board with award 3.10C bios - an old Compudyne 286) I had to use the 8k at.bin bios and combine it 64 times (using copy /b) to fill out my W27C512 chip which I used in my network card (8 x 64 = 512). Simply filling the EEPROM with zeros did not work. I also had to enable the boot prom by using the network software that came with the card which I bought on ebay and thankfully came with the software. Also, I as stated in the XTIDE documentation I ran the at.bin bios through the XTIDECFG utility that comes with it. I made no changes to the configuration but apparently this is necessary to create some sort of checksum for your system. Necroware does not mention the XTIDE configuration nor the combining of the files. See 2:40 of this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B0tp-I-iJ1k.html for why to combine the files. Maybe this is card specific but my computer did not find XTIDE boot rom until I repeated the 8k 64 times (by using copy /b not by copy pasting as shown in the linked video). Also, the XTIDE did Not solve my problem of my computer not recognizing the compact flash card. My compact flash card is still causing the computer not to boot at all. If I take it out, it boots up, XTIDE is loaded. IT can find a normal 160 GB hard drive that I hooked up in place of the compact flash card.
