I use the Lee quick trim system. It does everything in one shot. It amazes me how many people don’t use it correctly. First you have to watch the shell plate to have any shavings after trimming each time. Wipe it off with your finger. Other wise you OAL will vary. Second keep track of how many pieces you have trimmed. Once you reach twenty five pieces. Take cutter die out of your press. Use an air compressor and blow out to clean it. I blow it into an empty cereal box. Also make sure you blowing shavings and oil from the right end. Away from the side that grips the case. I bought the adapter so I could use a battery powered hybrid drill/ screw driver. Light weight. And the folding handle allow you to have a straight tool. Weight is straight down. I bought a Black & Decker. It works perfect.
you are right . i noticed this myself only when i talked to others about it i was told i as crazy , and it didn't matter . and when trimming with a trimmer that trims off of the shoulder my loads shot better than ones trimmed off of the col . i made a holder/ jig that has a hole in it the size of the datum line on the case shoulder and takes a dial indicator with a insert that fits over the case mouth . slide case in and set zero . read all cases and you can tell the cases that will be 'flyers ' . i found in my gun cases with over .002 neck variance will be 'flyers' . and testing a new barrel it is looking like it will take cases with up to .003 before the ' flyers ' start . only my shooting is mostly at 100 yards . yea i know not far enough lol . can got out to 250 yards . but i like small groups . i'm getting just under 1/4 inch groups out of my varmint/ target ar with a 24 inch krieger bull barrel . the groundhogs around the house hate my rifle ! keep up the good work !
Excellent job. I was working this on and off to see the difference. Now I know from your video here. Thanks for the time and money you put into this. New Sub! Keep'em coming!
Now that was a dam good presentation. My hat comes off to you young man. You did not studder or even corredted yourself even once. That is a sign of proffesionalism
Aha…..finally a good explanation, I had that same issue sizing my 325wsm to 270wsm and could not find any info on that, my rifle shoots great for my needs with it but still had lingering questions…..thank you excellent video
You can put your brass into a case gauge and measure the difference in neck length protrusion or extrusion in proportion to the rest. That is if they fit still after fire forming. Interesting how much variation in pressures due to friction of inner neck surface area to bullet. This is getting into squeezing the SD numbers down real low. Great informative video.
Thank you very much for this information because many shooters don't know the difference and how difficult it is to work with the brass and each type of brass is different and has a different tolerance and has a different neck size and angle of the shoulder
As a newer reloader there is a lot her for me to learn from. I will need to rewatch it to pick out the finer details. One thing that would be helpful is at the opening a clear and simple statement of what your topic is going to cover and a restatement at the end. For me it was non until the last 5 to 7 minutes that I was about to understand what the information you were presenting was trying to convey.
Thanks.. New to reloading so pretty much over my head atm. I just got my apex 10 setup this week for 9mm and wanting to load 223 next week. Trying to learning all I can to minimize my errors lol. I got my Henderson trimmer in and Lyman pro die pack
New to the reloading scene, longtime ocd though with tolerances. Flyers seem to be just that, misaligned unit. Marksmanship can only cover so much when chickens are in a row. Anything mechanical that can be corrected, before proceding, is upon the human intervention, just as is the skill sets incorporated. Each has their own level of comfort when drawing down on fine tuning. One does not have to be in competions to find a need for better results, sometimes it's only what drives us in a personal satisfaction quest.
One of the best in details videos Iv seen!! Question - I have a 33xc with Tubb brass, I’m on my second firing, annealed with an amp, when I bump the shoulder back , Iv noticed there .001-.003 difference in some of them! Is that something to worry about? Built for King of 1 mile
1 thousandth of variance is on the outside edge of what I'll allow. If you can't hold shoulders to at least 1 thousandth ES, then something is definitely wrong. Poor application of lube, improper running of press, improperly designed sizing die, improperly setup sizing die, or very poor quality brass/mistreated brass can all be contributing factors, as well as others.
Would you consider doing a cost benefit video on different trimmers? Possibly what is a good entry-level, a decent mid cost and possibly best of class trimmer? I know I don't like my current setup and would like to hear your opinion on what is currently on the market
Never heard so many disparities in such a short time 🙂 jk man, great content. I've been hand loading a long time and never gave that much importance to these disparities. Thank you
Consistent head space after it goes through a full length sizing die. Mine is only a couple thou off of my chamber head space so I don’t think I will be seeing issues with head space variance. Are you neck sizing? Really interesting stuff. I’m going to watch more of your content.
I have been reloading for 60 years, always updating equipment changing techniques and methods refreshing to watch your videos and not listen to people who think your techniques are over the top. Huge difference in bullets sitting force, especially start out with barns hunting bullets. What are your thoughts on this?
I prefer using a Wilson case trimmer to cut it perfectly square. Indexing on the base is not an issue if your headspace is consistent. Headspace must be consistent anyway when seating bullets off the lands (otherwise you get inconsistent bullet jump)
I trim with a cheap electric trimmer that headspaces off the shoulder after I size and I rotate the case as I trim to get a true square cut and always to a half thow or better and I trim every time even new brass
I have had 1 firing on my brass. I cleaned and resized with 2 thousands shoulder bump. Should I trim and clean up the necks at this point or wait for my firings? My trimmer indexes off the case neck.
11:52 - Assuming that the different applied-force starting points are due only to varying case lengths, doesn't seem to take into consideration other variables: neck tensions, inside neck diameters, or bullet dimensions/geometries. After the cases are fully formed and trimmed, do the starting points become much more uniform and predictable?
Thoughts on LE wilson trimmers? Are these the same as trimmers that index off the case bottom? Do they potentially introduce the variance you are describing?
I just got into reloading and trimming is bugging me the most. I have been using a WFT trimmer. Or just started using one and getting +/-0.002 in first batch and a 0.003 variance in the 2nd. Trimming has been messing with my head if I’m to inconsistent or not lol.
Thank you. No, no specific correlation on neck length. As long as consistency is there, it can be tuned. Seating force above 100 lbs. can become a real problem. Some bullet jackets and seating stems do not play well above that and jacket deformation can occur. Beneath that, so long as the force curve is consistent, then it's generally fine. The timing is tuned by bullet position, charge weight, and primer position. So as long as the bearing surfaces on the neck/bullet are consistent, the neck thickness consistent, then the bullet seating force should be as well... and will allow a good tune.
once full length sized, wouldnt the shoulders be pushed back to the same distance from the case head? then there might be less difference between the 2 points of index?
My brain tells me that if you keep your brass lots together, you have your sizing die set right, anneal as you should the neck length to body length ratio should be able to be kept relatively the same with the lathe type trimmers. Which is what I use myself.
What do you think is the optimum case neck length, starting from new brass length to until it’s sticking out into the throat? Or is it only the consistency that matter that all your necks are the same length?
Sir, what value would you put on an Amp Press. I also have a Giraud trimmer and use Peterson or Lapua brass. I trim and anneal after each firing. I shoot consistently in the 4’s.
If I understand correctly what you saying is you recommend using the headspace distance to 1st measure the case as fired. Then bump the shoulders .002 and then after brass stretches, Measure the neck or overall case length?? Or is there a device to measure from the top of the mouth of the neck to the datum line on the case shoulder ??
The primary thing to take away is that there will be a case capacity non-uniformity if the headspace is not uniform, no matter the trimming method used. If there is a headspace uniformity problem, and you trim via overall length, then the neck bearing length surface will likely be made non-uniform in the process. So the moral is, do not trim if there is a headspace variance greater than half a thousandth.
@@jorgefigueroa7573 Yes, but obviously it is not necessary. You take a headspace measurement, which you will need to take anyway... then you take an overall length measurement. You subtract the headspace measurement from the overall length... that that will give you the exact shoulder datum to case mouth dimension.
Have you ever found or tested any correlation to accuracy regarding the base of the inside of case? I.e the measurement of the inside of the case base to the case mouth and or the inside of the case base and outside base thickness. I hope that makes sense.
Sorry for the confusion, I sometimes have trouble putting thoughts into words. Perhaps it makes more sense to compare it to case length. We take a measurement from the base of the case to the end of case mouth and refer to that as case length. Depending on how much we trim or the accuracy of our trimmers the case length can vary. I was wondering if there could also perhaps be a variance from the case head , do to case head thickness but measuring it from inside of the case instead of the outside as one normally would. Not necessarily trying to measure internal volume but just the inside case length from the bottom of the inside of the case to the case mouth. I have never tested this as of yet and with quality brass I’m sure this measurement would be meaningless or of little to no consequence. If there was variance how ever, it could perhaps vary the ignition by the flash hole being shorter or longer by so many thousandths and alter combustion in some way or another? Sorry if this confuses you more , I think it’s safe to say a picture is worth a thousand words. Great video by the way I really appreciate the amount of detail and quality.
@@MMountain82 The case head thickness does not vary by much, in quality brass. In poor brass, it can vary quite a lot and is a significant source of case volume variance.
Very appreciative of this video and it’s content. You made a statement saying they are actually not fliers. Can you tell me what your definition of a flyer is?
What I was driving at there was that a flyer should be something that's truly unexplainable. It shouldn't be directly attributable to a preventable component variation or unseen environmental factor.
@@primalrights I just ordered the CPS primer seating tool and couldn’t find an answer to this question: is the primer pockets similar to brass in the regard that you need to fire the brass case 2 to 3 times or perhaps more for it to fully size to your chamber? In other words, should I not take a primer pocket depth test until I have fired it more or less three times?
@@primalrights yes that's the order I'm doing my brass..however I just trim with a 21st century.. anneal..resize.. tumble..trim chamfer and deburr.. then maybe tumble one more time
Very interesting. Thanks. Now I gotta change my spreadsheet. LOL I have 2 sets of Headspace comparators. They measure off a different spot on the case. I have inquired as to WHY. I got crappy answers. I would guess that ALL Head Space comparators would be built from the SASMI Datum line measurement. That makes sense to me. The answer I got was "doesn't matter, just use the same one all the time". That tells me nothing. Am I right?
It is impossible for headspace comparator manufacturers to hold the tolerances necessary, even if they were to define a specific hole diameter and bottom radius/chamfer dimension... which they do not all agree on. So yes, unfortunately it is a requirement for both headspace comparators and bullet comparators that the exact same comparator be used each time, in order for your measurements to be accurate... and even then, those measurements will only be valuable to you, as they do not translate to anyone else's comparators. This is why they are called "comparators" rather than "gauges" or measuring tools. The only way to avoid this would be to have a national institute certification process for each comparator, which each individual tool would be tested and given a certification against a standardized test part. This is not practical for this industry... and also unnecessary.
@@primalrights That blows my mind. Head Space is Head Space as governed by Head Space "GO" and "NO GO" gages that match SAAMI specifications. We set our dies for FL Resizing accordingly. And here we use a Rubber Yard Stick. Sheesh
That perhaps outlines the difference right there... a quality Go gauge can run upwards of $100. Where as it's very unlikely for someone to pay that for a single headspace comparator. ;)
MY man, why is it that I get 5-8 thou of brass length growth per firing on my BRA brass? Im running 30.2gr of Varget at 2800fps flat in cold weather, 30.00gr in warm weather for same velocity.
What brand of brass? What bullet? Annealing? Does this persist beyond the 3rd firing? This seems like an extreme amount of brass flow, which would be indicative of very soft brass, or a very poor fitment between your chamber and sizing die.
