@@TheRamenSeal yes, but why is one better? I assume it's just a harder/stronger bond (hence heat), but I'm not confident that that's the primary or only reason.
i work in a manufacturing plant and braze 8 hours a day. i’ve found that heat rises throughout the copper rather than sinks. heat the joint more than the pipe going up bro.
@@Jonnyblacknell i work with a double headed torch, and i find that heating the female joint to braze temp and then the male going into the joint to help melt the braze. the hot female joint will have capillary action this way and nothing gets overheated. it only takes a touch on the male to get it runnin.
@@krazykarl2413 Absolutely. don’t overheat anything, you’ll soon find out there’s a fine line between braze temp and overheated. if it’s overheated, it won’t accept alloy and it’ll bond as good as water and oil mix. this is, assuming you’re gonna be manufacturing and have the natural gas/oxy mix with gas flux. makes the copper braze better and provides a better bond. in manufacturing, paste flux is a thing of the past. Know your different flame types. Carbuerizing (think that’s how it spelled) Neutral (brazing flame) Oxidizing (name speaks for itself) means too much oxygen, and an easy way to tell that is your torch will hiss. and like it said in the comment above, heat rises in copper just like how it does with anything, heat will rise up the copper pipe and now down. heat your female joints first, that will also help with your capillary action and draw the alloy into the joint. you don’t want it piled up on top because that makes a weak joint and will burst. working with pressures of 300psi-500psi working with 410a, it has to be a good joint or somebody could seriously get fucked up. this is about all i can offer you; most things you will learn with practice. we’re provided the alloys that we have to use so i’m not sure about that aspect of your job, but know what alloy to use where. in HVAC applications, we use a 2% and 6%. one cools harder than the other and is more susceptible to cracking under vibration from the compressor and whatnot. other than that, it’s a super easy job, easiest money i ever made. hope you enjoy it as much as i do!
Brazing is just soldering with the higher melting point, stronger filler materials. I'm a big fan of brazing because my brazes are better than my welds on steel tubing. Just uses a lot of gas. Some of the fillers are almost as strong as base metal. Copper phosphorus rod's I think also work good for brazing up leaks in brass radiators with liquid in them.. but radiators in vehicles are aluminum today
@@KiloFeenix That dosen't make any sense at all. Both soldering and brazing are often done with torches. But not always, they are also both done with electric flameless heat too.
I just got a oxy/acetylene rig, don't have everything set up yet but have brazed some cast iron and steel. It is soooo useful, you're gonna love it when you end up with one.
@@miles11weFor the record, the torch in the video isn't an oxy-acetylene torch, it's an air-acetylene torch. Probably a Turbotorch brand. Some HVAC use them for brazing copper vs a oxy-acetylene porta-torch.
If you need protection against vibration braze, otherwise you annealing the copper making it soft and your overall burst strength is reduced. I use sta brite 8 wheneverpossible
We solder all the time here in the states and I’m not a fan of all the little quirks (I.e things that can wrong) love the finished look but you can’t mess around during the process. So hearing you say that soldering is not allowed gives me hope that we’ll abandon soldering water lines.
I've brazed steel to steel and tested it stronger than the steel itself. Could put 2 pliers on either piece and the would bend, and the steel would tear, but the brazing would budge. I suck at welding, but if something needs brazed, I'm ur guy, lol😅
I remember the first & only thing I brazed, a screwdriver. Threw it into water and pulled it out by hand after 15-20 seconds. Lost my finger prints for a few weeks.
I don’t have, nor would buy a brazing kit, because it’s too expensive and I’d never use it enough. I have done silver (3-5%) solder joints. I did my own A/C joints with silver solder 20 years ago and they’re still holding today. I realize that brazed joints are better and stronger, but how do silver soldered joints compare? Thanks and comments please.
So what actually MAKES tge physical connection ? I get weoding and how it combines the metal of the mating components, but how do soldering and brazing _work_ ? Is it a mechanical lock at the molecular level between the brazing rod metal and the surfaces of the two parts being joined ? I can see how that wouod do the job and g8ve an excellently _strong/ uni9n, but as that's only a guess , I'd _LIKE_ to gain some insight from someone who KNOWS ? Asking - thanks ! - C .
As an armature winder we used silver solder whenever we needed a joint to last and withstand the vibrations of a motor! We would use a product called Form-a-Jig as a heat sink to prevent any damage to the insulation of the windings. Some times welding a 1/2 to 1 inch piece of copper took a massive amount of heat to make the weld and there were times when you only had one chance to do it!
Im I newbie and I use propane and a lot of it for soldering copper. I use it because it’s cheap and I can get it anywhere. Besides I live in a trailer park and because of by law I can’t use a oxy acetaline torch
The "stronger joint" idea I believe only applies theoretically if all other things are equal. Does not account for the huge beef-up of double-layer attachment with standard soldered fittings. This joint could much more easily be levered into leaking by pushing on one leg, than would a standard 1/2" soldered joint
No it doesn't anneal the pipe. To anneal copper you need to heat it to red then chill it immediately in water. Heating to red and letting it cool naturally doesn't work, it's not steel
Brazing is called a cohesion weld when you mig or stick weld it's called an adhesion because you're adding the same steel filler wire to the steel weld joint or it can be aluminum for that matter.
I think you have those backwards. Not a welder, but in chemistry “cohesion” is a material sticking to itself/more of that same material, while “adhesion” is a material sticking to another (different) material
@@ethanwasme4307 I'm a med gas certified plumber not allowed to clean with sandpaper only allowed to wipe off with damp cloth after it cools and med gas you have to get it cherry red before you even start and not allowed to bend silfose (silver brazing rod) like Ac and appliance people do. it has to be straight and has to be the no more than 15% silver when finished have to test with nitrogen . So ugly joints lol but when I insulate them it looks good even mitre the 90s with the armor flex insulation
@@ethanwasme4307 and what he's doing in video is a water joint med gas you buy a tee and push into cup then come back around and cap but have to be careful I've melted fittings in trade school a few times cause I like oxy acetylene torches but takes a minute to find that sweet spot then you can haul ass with it
@@richardgraham3658 bro it's med gas you pull a purge and have to have it cherry red it's always black 😅when done im allowed to wipe down after it cools off
Technically you could, but it would take a very long time. Oxyacetylene burns much hotter than propane, MAP gas, etc, and since the copper should ideally be red-hot when you braze, oxyacetylene is what basically everyone uses.
@@joshm3563Except this guy, he's not using an oxy-acetylene torch. He's using an Air-Acetylene torch. Actually a lot of HVAC guys use air-acetylene torches. Saves carrying around an oxygen bottle.
@@Onhaey "It’s a B tank" Given that we can't see the tank, you have no idea if it's a B tank. Could be an MC tank. Or if he's working in a shop where moving around a jobsite isn't a factor, he could be hooked up to a larger tank.
Capillary action. It adheres to the microscopic pits and valleys of the material while also wicking into the gaps of the joint. Extremely strong, fast and easy to complete
The Torch he is using is an air-acetylene "turbotorch" You can braze with MAPP or propane, but it's difficult as MAPP and propane torches are not as hot as an acetylene torch and it can be hard to get it hot enough to braze.
It doesn't look like brazing it looks more like sil-fos. Brazing rod has Flux on it. The rod he is using doesn't. Plus, the finished joint has no Flux on it.
Uhhh, some brazing rods are flux coated, not all of them. A lot of them are not coated The brazing rods for brazing copper do not need flux as they contain phosphorus, and the phosphorus in the filler metal acts like the flux. SIl-Fos is just a brand name for a SIlver/Copper/Phosphorus brazing rod intended for brazing copper to copper.
Brazing and Soldering are the same process ... You're soft Soldering and Brazing is Hard Soldering the only difference is the filler rod...and gas ....depending on the material
Soldering is a process called capillary action which is the drawing of a liquid between two wetted surfaces via flux and is typically done at 400 degrees F. Brazing copper to copper has no flux and is typically 1,000+ degrees F. Brazing may be a more solid joint, but when brazing you anneal the copper making it super soft and easy to bend. You k ow this though. You shoukd do a video of you pulling that tee, if you haven't already.
@andrewalexander9492 by definition capillary action is a drawing of a liquid between two wetted surfaces, so what wets the surfaces? I absolutely disagree. Your filler rod moves with heat. With solder you can touch the fitting and it flows through it. With brazing you control the flow with heat. Maybe they're saying the brazing rod wets the surfaces, but brazing rod definitely doesn't suck in and flow like solder. I'm a union pipefitter and I do both regularly. I could be wrong though, it's happened before....
@@davidrussell9290 You can disagree if you want, that just makes you mistaken. Brazing filler absolutely does suck right into a space like solder. what on earth makes you think it doesn't? Your understanding of capillary action is really badly flawed. there is *nothing* about capillarity action that say the surfaces need to be wetted by some other liquid first. Look, take two pieces of dry flat glass, and place them together. Put a little water next to the edges of the glass and you can watch the water get pulled between the sheets of class. That's Capillary action. It did not have to be pre-wetted (really not sure where you got hat idea) that identical effectr will work on melted solder, and melted braze filler. You may be confused because you've only done braze-welding, and when you're doing that, you're just heating the filler enough to adhere to the steel, and not flow by capillary action. You absolutely can braze two flat steel surfaces together if you heat the work and the braze filler enough for it to flow between them by capillary action. I have done this. And that's exactly how an ACR guy brazes copper lines. The fittings are pretty much identical to plumbing fittings, and when you join them by brazing, you heat the fittings up hot enough for the braze filler to flow by capillary action, and it will flow, all the way the the bottom of the fitting, by capillary action, just exactly as solder will flow in to the bottom of the fitting if you're sweating a joint. For brazing copper no flux is required, because if you're using a copper-phosphorus filler rod, the phosphorous acts in place of the flux. Most braze fillers for copper also have silver in addition to the phosphorus (Sil-fos is one brand name you may have heard of) but the silver isn't necessary, I have brazed copper fittings with rods containing only copper and phosphorus.
@@davidrussell9290 Here's a link to a you tube video by LucasMmilhaupt (supplier of brazing products, including SIL-FOS filler) In it they explain how capillary action is essential for brazing (OK, for whatever reason I can't post a comment with a link to the video. it's titled "Importance of Capillary Action in the Brazing a you tube search for that title should get you to the video) Obviously one of the larger suppliers of brazing products things that brazing involves capillary action. I think you should call them and tell them they're wrong. I think they'd probably laugh at you.
@andrewalexander9492 the fittings are exactly like solder fittings, except they're measured in O.D. and not I.D. I am just going off of the definition I learned in trade school from the United Association, like I clearly stated though, I could be wrong. We always fill from the bottom, not the top. So if I am mistaken, and I very well may be, it is in the "two wetted surfaces" part. I will definitely look into it. I've soldered, brazed, and welded exotic metals since 1998. I know you can braze two flat surfaces together. We used to make saddles out of copper instead of pulling tees on 6" pipe, so I do understand that. When running medical gas we have to have 100% penetration, and that filler metal absolutely does not suck up into all of the fitting. We move and manipulate it with heat. I've cut hundreds of the fittings in half for cert tests. I'll check my definition tomorrow though. Appreciate your input.
Brazing and sweating are pretty much the same except one is at a higher temp, one is at a lower temp. Still dissimilar metals. brazing is nothing like TIG.
Yeah this guy is sweating copper not brazing look it up he's shows in the video he doesn't know how the proper soldier a copper joint uses way to much heat no flux brazing is a lot like tig welding just using a welding torch not a tig torch that uses electricity heat in one hand filler metal in the other look it up before tell someone they are wrong asss
@@nicholassoviak2386 dude…. That IS brazing. Hes using a brazing rod. Hes using an acetylene torch. You dont need flux when brazing. Do you even understand what youre talking about?
@@nicholassoviak2386Congratulations, just about everything you said is wrong. This is in fact brazing. As per the AWS, brazing is a joining process with a filler metal with a melting point greater than 850 degrees F. You don't need flux when brazing copper with a filler metal whcih contains phosphorous. For copper joints, the phosphorus acts like flux. This guy is using a silver/copper/phosphorus brazing rod. Pretty much all brazing rods intended for copper pipe are silver/copper/phosphorus.
Ima plumber not a hvac technician...I now when you braze copper it becomes .. annealed.. ( softer ) vs ..soldering. that challenges the integrity of the tubing/fitings.. even more so in cold climates ....also not high pressure ..so ...all I'm saying is it's always been strange to me that the common practice is brazing the lines over soft soldering.
You have no idea whether there's nitrogen is being used or not. Regardless, the purpose of the nitrogen is not to prevent annealing. It's to prevent oxidation of the copper on the inside of the pipe, whcih causes a black oxide scale which can later flake off and damage refrigeration equipment.
@andrewalexander9492 "Nitrogen is used in annealing to create a protective atmosphere that suppresses oxidation and decarburization, which may degrade the material’s surface". Yeah if you aren't quenching your copper after your braze it you are creating a weak joint or a weak piece of copper, purging nitrogen prevents annealing AND CARBON. Go back to school pole socket.
@@SuperHeat420 "Nitrogen is used in annealing to create a protective atmosphere that suppresses oxidation and decarburization, which may degrade the material’s surface". I don't know where you cut-n-pasted that from, but I guarantee you that its is from somewhere they're talking about steel. "Decarbuization" is referring to the loss of carbon from steel. Carbon is one of the things that makes steel, steel, and not iron. On the other hand, copper pipe doesn't have any significant carbon. Copper pipe os 99.9% pure copper. so "decarburizatrion" isn't even part of the conversation when you're talking about copper pipe Also, you don't quench copper to keep it from being annealed. You're mixing up heat treating process for steel, Copper, unlike steel is quenched during annealing. You heat it cherry red, then you quench it. (google annealing copper if you don't believe it) Yes I've done it, yes it works. Yes, it's the opposite of steel whcih need to be cooled slowly to anneal. So, congratulations, virtually everything you've posted is wrong here. That's quite an accomplishment. LOL
@andrewalexander9492 i never said it was only used to prevent annealing in copper. It is also used to prevent annealing in steal, or in fact almost all metals when being heated. I am not mixing up any metals. I am speaking specifically about brazing copper. You do not heat copper cherry red and then quench it when brazing. Holy cow you shouldn't be around a torch. I dont need to google anything. I stand by my original point. Heat was applied in the wrong area, no nitrogen during purge(you can tell when the flame hit the joint, 1-3 psi of nitrogen will make it dance a little, 20 years welding copper will tell ya) its a shit braze. Sorry honey.
@@SuperHeat420 I didn't *say* that you heat copper cherry red then quench it when brazing.learn to read I said you do it when you're annealing it. and that's exactly correct, that's how you anneal copper, so when you said you have to quench it to *prevent* annealing (like you do steel) you're talking out of your ass. And if you think that you quench copper to prevent annealing, you absolutely are mixing up metals, because you do that for steel, but you o not for copper. And the fact that you're quoting stuff whcih talks about "decarburizing" and thinking it applies to copper tells us you don't know shit about metallurgy. That's a fact, copper pipe has pretty much zero carbon, so "decarburizing" it is physically impossible. Look at this point it's pretty clear that you're pine of those blowhards that can never admit to being wrong, so waste of my time to continue responding, b ut if anyone is reading and is wondering who is correct here. google is your freind there are plenty of references which will tell you that quenching is a part of the process of annealing copper, not something you do to prevent annealing it, and plenty of references whcih will tell you that the reason copper lines are purged with nitrogen it to prevent oxidation on the inside of the pint (has nothing to do with annealing or not annealing)
@@EastDallasKicks I think the newer versions are a bit better. One of the problem with turbos is a lot of guys who use 'em don't know there's larger tip sizes for them. I think they cap out at like 2 1/2" lines, versus a standard oxy-ace that can do up to 4" before you get into specialty gear. They still get hot enough to braze, it's just it takes longer to heat up and having the copper hot for longer means you have to put a lot more effort into keeping stuff like valves cool while you work.
I thought the same thing when I first saw the extrusion hub. Might be in the description that I never read but can you let us know what extrusion tool you used. It's been 20 years since I have extruded copper im sure the tech has got a lot better.
@@LearnPlumbing Drilling into a non annealed hard drawn copper tube makes a rougher hole and it takes longer. The specifications that most plumbers don't bother to read states that you're to anneal the tubing prior to tee-drilling it. Yootoob is full of "plumbers" who don't know their trade or code mostly. Good plumbers don't have the time to post stuff online nor have the desire to.
@daddy1571 Well I'm a very Good Plumber and I post video to hand that hard earned expertise down to those who are interested. RU-vid is a great platform to learn Plumbing or anything really. Also a great platform for critics to watch videos amd leave comments as of they know something but most the time really don't. 😉
