BREAKING BETHEL EP4: Get High On The Spirit, Coins On The Wall, and Magic Gas Tanks. 

When I left an environment like that, I literally went through a 10-month spiritual, mental and emotional detox. Chasing signs and wonders is very intoxicating. And realizing the error of emphasis and pulling back from that could have caused me to “deconstruct” from Christianity. Thank God, he helped me “disentangle” since 2019 and ongoing.

Sadly, I have watched a friend who went to the Bethel school in Australia drift into the New Age and she is so deeply involved now that she refuses to hear my warnings despite knowing that the Lord saved me out of the New Age fourteen years ago.

The closest I came to Bethel experiences was at a baby shower we had for my daughter when she was pregnant. She invited some of her Bethel friends. They ended up approaching most attendees and asking them if they could pray for them, mainly for a physical ailment. What I don't understand is how some churches invite the Holy Spirit to show up at a church service when the Holy Spirit is already indwelling the believer.

This video brought back so many memories for me. I was in NAR ...in a VERY hypercharasmatic "church". Traveled to Bethel for conferences with my then pastor. I remember it being the first time(of many) I heard William Matthew's worship. I've prayed in tongues for probably hundreds of hours over the years. Everything you described in this video I've genuinely encountered for myself first hand...countless times. I say all of that to say this. I'm now saved . I follow the true Jesus of the Bible. Im independent Baptist. I never look back. Love these videos!

This feels like therapy for my PTSD... remember a guest preacher inviting people to bring digital cameras to a meeting in order to capture the 'angel orbs'

"Shoulda bought a Honda but I bought a kia" lol so funny 😁 I understand all this!! Same thing was going on when I did BSsM at our church. I questioned everything and was pretty much an outcast. You are doing a great job!! 👍

I joined a Charismatic community shortly after becoming a Christian. What caused me to leave was seeing this disparity between what they taught and what I read in scripture and I could not reconcile the two. Scripture does not say ALL will prophecy, ALL will speak in tongues, etc. What was taught was experiential Christianity not solid scripture. That’s where we get off track. When our experience is more important than God’s word. Bill Johnson actually taught that. We need to read our Bibles!

My husband and I came out of a church like this. This had been most of our life. But about 8 years ago we left our church and never went back. My husband was so bothered and kept saying nothing is biblically sound. I didn’t even understand it at the time but a few years later i totally started to see it. I can’t believe I bought into it as well. I remember being trained or groomed not sure how to look at it now. To do treasure hunting at my work place and how to prophecy to people. So many family and friends were and are steeped in it. And when we left the church we are treated like we left the anointing of the family or community and that we are sinners. But I don’t think they’d understand if I explained to them. They’re concerned if we have the spirit still and believe in the spirit. Which of course we do.. but not in the pagan/new agey practices that that they syncretize with our Holy creator. People are losing the absolute awe, and reverence for our Lord and it’s actually very frightening. I hope people continue to wake up and turn from these ways. Thanks for the video series. I have shared with a couple people.

I enjoyed the editing on this one with the occasional pop-up text, and thanks for describing some of the different practices like "prophetic worship" and what-not. For folks that haven't spent time in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles a lot of this is unheard of. Once the series nears completion, I hope you spend some time on the wrestling you and your family did coming out of Bethel, questioning faith, and eventually finding hope again. Though, I have a feeling some of that will be covered in American Gospel 3 when it drops.

The similarity between being 'high in the spirit' and shaman practices is striking.

They almost had me through their music, but I just couldn't totally get attached. Thanks to the "real" Holy Spirit. God bless you and your family for sharing.

I just started your video. I had experienced staying with a student for about a week. It was... interesting. But, 1 of the things I'm battling is I grew up in a cessationist church. We migrated to a continuist or Vineyard church. I saw all the manifestations and so on. Anyhow, after leaving both, I still do not see evidence AGAI NST the gifts. I just don't agree that they ought be toyed with or manipulated for fun. Or scripture being pulled out of context and flipped around to make new doctrines. All that said....I dunno where I land. Maybe just more in the category of " read your whole Bible in context" and study. Original language and meaning, culture of the time, audience. I dunno. So many thoughts and questions.

Thanks to everyone that joined our late night premiere! Have a great night 🎉❤🎉

I relate…..as I was raised in charismania……. I moved to reformed theology about 5 years back. I am grateful for the experiences of charismatic church life….as scripture alone lead Me out of its clutches,and has allowed for My freedom from the extremes of reformed theology to follow. The process of recognizing what can actually be held on to,scripturally speaking, Is becoming an actual Holy Spirit working part of My new nature in Christ. The best damage control….is to reckon yourself dead. I am praying for You and Your home,Jesse.

I've heard about the coin thing, but the "getting high on the spirit" is new to me. Banning Liebscher did an interview, trying to dismiss the whole grave soaking thing, and then the coin thing was brought up. He described his response to his first hearing about it, which was "ok guys, that's a little weird. Maybe you shouldn't be doing that." Like grave soaking is any better?? Or didn't they tell those kids to not do spirit drugs in grade school?

Brother, I thank you for sharing this. I got into Bethel teaching sometime in 2011 or 2012. I felt like they had more from God. I read Living from the Unseen and was hooked. It took a huge tragedy for God to open my eyes years later. When people ask why I object so much to their movement and music, I usually point to the diety of Jesus but your videos give a more complete picture of the culture. Thank you for sharing in a clear concise way. Now I can share your videos instead.

This was helpful. I had forgotten about a lot of these experiences I had back in the day. A lot of it was broke students lol at the gas tanks. People saw money appear in their wallets, supernatural financial aid etc. it’s all miracles all day. No Gospel, just miracles. Lots of turnover. Sad and this reminds me to pray for them more often.

You make an insightful point at the end about how the whole culture of Bethel promotes a lack of discernment. I have friends and loved ones who are heavily influenced by Bethel culture and writings, and in my experience your concern is spot-on. I want to speak truth in love to them but have no firsthand experience with the church or school, so I'm really thankful that you have decided to not only make these videos, but for the heartfelt spirit with which you address the issues. I wanted to share this: I have personally experienced a unique material provision from God in a time of need after a time of earnest prayer (not gas for my tank, but something material and unable to be explained in any other way than as providence from the Lord). So I absolutely believe He can and does sometimes work that way. But I think it is important to remember that what God has chosen to reveal about His nature, He has revealed by three means: by His creation, by His word, and by God the Son, Jesus. And in His creation, from the microcosm seen only with an electron microscope to the orbits of the planets, we see order. Not chaos. Pattern and symmetry and order. And with His word, we see that the Holy Spirit chose to speak through orderly human language that we could understand, whether it was written on stone tablets or in epistles to the early church. He commanded the Israelites to worship in very specific and orderly ways, and the temple was full of symmetry. And later He rebuked the Corinthian church through Paul for their chaotic and undisciplined meetings. And Christ Himself was a carpenter--someone who cuts and shapes and builds with math and precision--before his ministry. During His ministry, his eyewitnesses describe how He asked enormous crowds to sit down in smaller, orderly groups before He distributed the miraculous meal of bread and fish. And when He taught them to pray, He taught them real words in a language they could understand. All this to say: the Lord has revealed Himself to be a God of order and communication. And the Holy Spirit is the Lord and is One with the Lord. So then, are we suddenly to accept from these spiritual teachers that the Lord has changed? That in spite of all the evidence to the contrary in Scripture and creation and the life of Christ, the Lord is actually a God of chaotic manifestations and drunken stupors and convulsions? Please, brothers and sisters, turn back to the word of God and seek true discernment.

My grandparents attended a little country Church their entire lives, the previous generation before them built the little Church in the early 1900's. I attended the little Church during my childhood. The grandma's and great aunts cleaned the little Church with loving hands. It was pristine. I can't imagine all the ups and downs the parishioners experienced through the decades and through it all the little Church stood as a place of worship, peace, solice, guidance for the people. That little Church was enough for everyone.

Took me 2 seconds to google the coin stick to the wall. “A nice simple little demo you can do is to rub a coin in your hand to warm it up, then press it against a wall or door (painted or waxed works best) hold it for a few seconds then let go and it will remain held to the wall. The simple explanation is that a layer of warm air is trapped between the coin and the wall, when the air cools it contracts creating low pressure and the higher air pressure outside the coin holds it to the wall.”

I have been enjoying watching through this series (I saw it after watching Mike Winger’s recent video, and then seeing your response to that). I went to Bible school abroad back in 2010 - that was Capernwray and pretty much just studying theology for a few months - but when I came back I got immersed in a Christian community who was practicing NAR, though I didn’t know that’s what it was at the time. I was in what is often referred to as a “greenhouse” at Bible school - being around Christian friends and reading the Bible and praying and stuff all the time - and then came back to “normal life”, and felt a need to find a community of people who were really pursuing their faith, so I didn’t end up feeling lost. So I went to this “prophetic teaching night” that my church was putting on one Monday evening per month, and it was the first time I was exposed to anything like this notion of being able to get unique visions and words directly from God. Then from that was invited to a home group that had more people, and quickly through these communities met and fell in with people who were very deep into it. When you first see and experience snippets of this stuff, these miracles and visions, it’s new and exciting, beyond anything you have experienced before, and I was just hungry for those spiritual feelings and experiences and to continue to elevate my faith life and my relationship with God. I laughed when at the end you briefly mentioned “growing legs”. Why is that such a huge thing? It’s sad and funny at the same time. I very much experienced people trying to teach and to do that. I experienced sozo, the notion of using your imagination to make up prophesy or words of knowledge from God, treasure hunts, people performing healings all the time (complete with expected lingo), fire tunnels (which I never went through), people acting drunk and claiming they were drunk/slain in the spirit, people talking about the holy spiritual bubbles near vents, holy spirit “glitter” on your hands and Bible, visions of angels and demons, “dream interpretations”, everything being a “spirit of” something that you need to declare out of you, etc. So many of the things I probably can’t even remember it all. I never even went to Bethel or specifically closely knew anyone who actually went to Bethel yet (some did following the introduction of all this), and I live in Canada, so you are very much correct with saying it’s a product of the culture. This movement had/has permeated churches across the continent. I was in and around this for about a year, and over the course of that time would see and hear many things that a part of me would flag as “off”, confusing, or concerning. Finally, I began to feel a very strong pull to move away from it - it just wasn’t sitting right with me. And I am so very thankful for that. The very last time I was around this stuff was an evening at this church that is very well-known for being extremely charismatic, where a lot of my friends and I would go weekly, and many times it would break out into some of this stuff. I just remember it becoming very open that night, and there being fire tunnels and “healings” galore, and then a few friends of mine were having “laughter/joy in the spirit”, which seemed to be some iteration of being slain in the spirit where you have uncontrollable laughter. One person started it and then prayed for another who then “got” it, then another, and then before I knew it there were 5 people surrounding me, touching me and praying for me to also get this “contagious” joy of the spirit, all while laughing hysterically. I just remember honestly feeling physically cold and almost numb inside. They prayed a few times and it wasn’t happening for me, and I could see on their faces that they were almost confused underneath their own laughing as to why it wasn’t happening to me, and usually with these things the explanation becomes that person isn’t “open”, and has to work on their faith. Of course, right? I remember feeling like, this is so wrong, this almost seems fake or put on, and this doesn’t feel like genuine worship, it feels like a performance, and I don’t think this is something God wants me to be part of right now. So my then fiancé and I drove away that night, and I just remember crying and pouring out to him my feelings about all of this stuff. I’m thankful he was so understanding and really listened to me when I could articulate my thoughts about it better - him and I had met at that very first Monday “prophetic night” I went to, which was 12 years ago this week. We have now been married just under 11 years, and I am so grateful that him and I are very much on the same page about this. Thanks again for sharing these videos!

Some of the "signs" that you mentioned reminded me of stuff my grandma would say. Stuff about Gold teeth, glitter in hair, and angel feathers. They are still fully in a Bethel mindset. They have gone down to Bethel for prayer before.

Thank you so much for this. I have been involved with so many people who over spiritualize everything that I have had to separate from them. This has been going on for 20 years and I am just now waking up.

Your humility and gentle spirit are so refreshing. I'm sure sharing your story will help so many who feel how 'off' things are in their 'signs & wonders' type 'church'. That niggling 'something's not right about this' feeling is the one thing that IS the Holy Spirit speaking. It's easy as an outsider to see how silly it all is, but beautiful, sincere people are caught up in it and they know no better; most have not read much of the Bible, so they only have their experience and the delusional thoughts of others guiding them. Peers become their guide. Dare I say, this they share with all cults. Let's all pray for true discernment. Thanks for caring enough about your peers to speak out, and doing so with humility. Blessings!

Thank you Jesse I’ve only recently come upon your videos and it is quite a blessing to hear. Just a word of encouragement I’m sure most of us listening do not hear you slamming it and shaming people but simply telling of your experience of Bethel. I have very very similar experiences where in a Bethel like environment but it is taking me years to reevaluate all these things. Believe it is the Scriptures and the fellowship around the Scriptures been strictly devoted to Jesus Christ is our best hope.

I went to a church in Ireland that had Bill Johnson come and speak at around 2010. After that the church started up an encounter school of mission. Modelled on BSSM. Same format. Same practices. Same reading /study material, same everything really. The grave soaking or toking the Holy Ghost never came to our attention , but ESOM as the school became know still runs and students come from other countries to intern at the church and do ESOM. Every year in May they host an ESOM conference , usually with someone connected to Bethel coming to speak or lead the worship. This year it will be Eric and Candace Johnson. The connections to Bethel are global and well established. ! Thankyou for sharing your experiences and for helping others understand the complex issues that are part of the “movement “. Prayers for you and your family. 🙏

I can totally see that argument of "if you can get drunk in the Spirit, why can't you toke in the Spirit?" Or what if both are unbilical?

Imagine a recovering alcoholic or drug addict going to one of these meetings.......

Thank you, Jesse. I’ve enjoyed every video. Can’t wait to hear more!

Hearing of this makes me not miss the previous churches I was in. Part of the irony of rejecting one thing, but accepting another just like it reminds me of how witchcraft was denounced, but similar practices under a Christian name were accepted.

Man, I really just want to say thank you again. I used to love Bethels worship because (like you have testified about) it was written and orchestrated to make you feel a certain way and it’s very effective. Knowing what I know now, I’ve been wrestling with my worship pastor about us using their music. Everyone I’ve talked to seems to have a shoulder shrug attitude about it. Like “well what is heresy in this song?”. People don’t understand that A. If your church is playing their music on Sunday morning, you are paying an annual fee and are therefore contributing to this ministry. And B. They have a totally different viewpoint on what they write in these songs than how your average Christian hears it (“I receive your vision”, “we prophesy your word”, “there is a miracle in the room”). Any advice? Thanks man

I went up to Bethel in 2019. I believed there was a move of the Holy Spirit going on up there. Had no idea what they thought. But I was caught up in a mild charismatic for about 5 years. My experience with Bethel was short I knew something was wrong when they all had ran up to the stage and worship the band and not God. After six weeks I had already left worship three times because something was wrong in my spirit. And then I quit going altogether to Bethel. But I had rented a back house with BSSM students and alumni. . And we had a lot of worship nights and went to other peoples houses for worship night. Here’s when I knew it was off the chain when they were done singing they just spoke nonsense to each other it was so ridiculous that I couldn’t figure out what was wrong with these people. Then I prayed and prayed Lord give me discernment on what is happening. And what I realized was this was the fruit of Bethel these people they’re out of their mind biblically but they are the fruit of Bethel so the trees rotten. they were supposed to be prophesying it was so crazy. And they would do all the jerk moves like Heidi Baker and so many other faults demonic people. And the laughter was so obvious it was a mocking laugh the demons that control them are having them laugh and it’s mocking but they don’t even know it’s a mocking them. I went to home groups concerts and it was so troubling to my spirit. This went on about three or four months until I got a job in another ministry in Happyvalley. And they were charismatic and way off but nothing like Bethel. Then the Lord brought fighting for faith across my RU-vid page and while I was working for that ministry God was showing me and teaching me why these things troubled my spirit and how ridiculous and I needed to renew my mind. So I totally appreciate your videos and I was there for a short time but it was really awful

Very awesome that you are shedding light and speaking out. Thank you, and prayers for you in your process as well.

I was in a church back in college in the 1970’s that was into some of the nar stuff. I was naïve and young and everyone was sincere. I still carry some of the garbage they taught in the back of my mind. So I understand your need to process what you went through. I thank God that He is delivering me layer by layer with His Word and people who are part of the discernment ministry. It is tough but keep going with it.

I live in Nashville and the coin on the wall thing made it all the way down here. Co-worker (Bethel fan) told me a story about a coin they put up on the wall and claimed God for the entire duration that family lived there (10 or so years) and that it never fell…until the day they moved.

Thank you for sharing more of your journey. When we are seeking "experiences" or "encounters" or anything outside of The Scripture/The Word of God, the little "low-level devils" are more than willing to accommodate. Satan and his minions are more than willing to give subjective "words," "prophecies," encounters and experiences. When one tags on: "God said," we can no longer test the word or encounter as we would then be questioning God. Error reproduces more error. There is much to be said about the group pressures and influences in a gathering. Folks don't want to be left out, so they "lean in" as you articulated. And, when the leaders teach, "get out of your head and into the spirit" they foster an environment for deception and error. The Word always admonishes us to be sober minded and of self control and to test all things with God's Word. But isn't that oh so boring and old school🙄😂

I've watched a lot of videos on RU-vid for a very long time and this is the first time that I've heard about the coins sticking to the wall.

I just watched episode 3 and this video was even more helpful. I belonged to a group of professing Christians who did weird Bethel-ish things and "frying" in the spirit was one of them. Every Friday night in the dark. It was strange and just like you, I didn't experience that myself. It didn't feel right back then and now I know why. Praise God for opening your eyes, mine and all those who have heard and believed the biblical gospel.

Appreciate the series! Been through a lot of Bethel like stuff in the past.

Thse orbs are not to be taken lightly. Yes it can be dust particles but it can also be some entities and not the good ones. My former guitar teacher was a serious ghost hunter and he was into this spiritual photography when he would go to places like aome abandoned houses, churches, places with a lot of history etc and he would take photographs of these places. There were orbs and various foggy shapes in his photos. It gave me the chills. And one more story from my own experience. Ten yrs ago I was exploring this old WW2 abandoned labor camp/factory ruins, old rusty stuff and so on and at one point as I was taking pictures then I checked the photo on my camera screen and it gave me the goosebumps - there was this foggy shape across the whole picture, and what totally spooked me and made me run from there was my dog. He was totally frozen, staring at the place I just took photo of, his fur up... Nuh, it's still uncomfortable when I think of it. I have a big respect for these things, demons and the devil are real and should be taken seriously and not be played with. But ofc, those bethel orbs could be just specs of dust, who knows.

I can relate. Ive been at a bethel affiliate church in South Africa. Ive been through all that sticky glory, sticking coins to the wall, doing glory tornadoes of turning around 7 times before worship.

I appreciate your comment that it's à good thing to have zeal for God. In fact it's not enough just to criticize the obviously crazy things going on at Bethel ..As Christians we must all ask ourselves serious questions about our own committment to Christ and whether or not we have lost our first love and zeal for Him which we had at our conversion.... Your approach is balanced and thoughtful , and I feel that you have a real desire for these young people in Bethel to have a true faith in Christ , based on Him and his word and through the action of his Holy Spirit in their hearts and lives ....

Extreme ptsd when I ‘broke’… Amos 5:21… “I hate your feasts, your assemblies…take away from me the noise of your songs…” YHVH is not speaking of His feasts. He is speaking of man made religions. Sensuous songs and hypnotic spirituality we dare call ‘worship.’

It is odd that the "drunk in the spirit" "new wine" barking like dogs, growling like tigers, rolling, convulsing, catatonic, spinning, running, crying and screaming generation would draw the line at toking.

Also, I appreciate you saying there is something to learn from people going out and praying for strangers, having that boldness and zeal for God. This is something the church can do... just not in the form of listening to every voice that speaks to you, because you were craving a burger when the "spirit" said to stop by TGIF.

This is great! We always had testimonies like that too. God aired up a flat tire, filled up a tank, healed earring in one ear, lengthened a leg. This wasn’t at Bethel, but same type of beliefs. I’m almost 3 years out myself. 🙏🏻

Great insight into the Lack of Discernment!! And as strange as many of the stories of "miracles" are, I respect your judgement in not dismissing all of them entirely. As Doug Wilson says...It's a strange world.

God Bless you, brother. So thankful!

So glad to join your beautiful soul and your journey to serve the Lord. From New Zealand.

I watched you on Prophecy Bingo. You were hilarious! I laughed so much at you guys, especially your ‘prophecy and prophecy products for sale’ gig!😛🤣🤣😂😂🤪😜

Oh man, dude, how I'd love to talk to you about that. My heart really sings when I hear you talk about your experiences at Bethel Church. Your spirit is so kind and gentle. "There's definitely something there" Yes. That's how I perceive it too, underneath all the false doctrine they spread. Their lightheartedness, their joy, their trust in God, that is it. You know, we can argue about a lot of things, but God is good and He is faithful, even when we are not. Besides, it is their way of expecting His reality. There is faith and passion for a really good God. Not to say that they are not completely off track. You see, I have experienced God's leading. And more often than not it has led to genuine, repentant conversions. And there were also impulses, the difference was that they were not just impulses: "I feel we need to pray here or there, but always (!!) in connection with certain people He put me in contact with, in work situations, like: "Take her out for a coffee, she needs someone to talk to" - and then I found myself in the middle of a conversation about God and the desperate call to Him. Sometimes people who had been told they were too sinful to come to him. (How absurd is that when you consider the redeeming work of Christ and WHAT He died for). I have seen tears of joy come to the Lord. So YES, "there is something to it" It IS written that He is a God who sees us. Think about it, because I don't want to see you condemning your joy in God because false spirits and false teachings have crept into Bethel Church. Because there is no discernment. You see, they lack reverence. That is it. They do not want to accept that being created is not the same as sonship/being the only begotten son of God, and that we are adopted into the family THROUGH Jesus alone. They do not realise that Jesus, as God on earth, has had ALL the gifts and ALL the blessings of THE PERSON OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, in their speech "active", that He had it all, Jesus, who has been at the same time human, and they only get one or two and furthermore only the gift Holy Spirit decides theyll get. (1 Cor 12). That they will NEVER be like Him, but sealed and gifted and chosen and loved nevertheless. But they are not completely wrong. They need recognition of what it means to serve. What it means to bow down. What it is to surrender to God. To Jesus. That He still is, always has been and always will be King. They are acting like rebellious teenagers, going way too far, not accepting boundaries, not having respect. And so the other side gets a stronghold. But I am a living testimony that even when we are not, Jesus is faithful. It is their love for him, in the end, their sense of wonder, their fascination that is completely missing in other churches. And hope, joy, serenity, seeking what is good, love, faith (trust in God)... there is no law against any of these. But they really have to be sorted out and come back to the recognition of Jesus Christ. Then they can worship, dance, stand in awe and joy. Ah, the coin thing: There are magnetic fields in the walls, created by modern technology. Well, magnetic. That's why it works with coins. It doesn't work with banknotes. As far as it concerns Kris Valloton and Bill Johnson: Kris, Im compassionate about him. See, he sits and talks with the very not John Wayne like John Eldredge and talks about strong masculinity weaping like a child. He deals with anxiety and fear. At one point or another, with all power striving, I see the man behind the facade. And he really needs help. He needs help. Man. Conc Bill Johnson I have my doubts what he is up to. If his image would be a bridge, I wouldnt walk over it. He is influential, he is NAR leader, so, whats behind the show? And he spreads really a doctrine that is false. BUT. Turn to the sermon of 07/16/22, shortly after Beni's death. "God doesnt owe his explanations to me. I owe him mine. I am not the one to judge HIM, He is to judge me." "I only have that chance on earth to praise Him in my pain. I will offer that. I will not dismiss him." It was a man, as Spurgeon would put it, sayin' "And if he slays me, Ill praise him." After that short moment of total clarity, he goes into his weird teachings again. But thats what I mean: God is faithful even when we are not." So its good to warn. But no good idea to judge. Right? God bless you.

Thx for this series. I found it thru Holly Pivec. Never been in Bethel but it is good to know.

"when something's crazy, that's gotta be God" love that. Really enjoying this.

This is how I grew up! Everything you’re saying I’m like, “yup I’ve heard that for sure!” Thank God for truth being revealed. Bethel School of Ministry would have been right up my alley as a teenager (I might be just too old for that).

Man, angels are all over Festival of Lion King in DisneyWorld because every picture I took in there had orbs! And here I thought I did something wrong when I took the pictures. Thanks for enlightening me! ;)

Your reflections on Bethel are so interesting! God bless and keep poking the bear! ❤️

I am so grateful to have found your channel, through Mike. I could have been one of those groupies. So glad you escaped with your soul.

Thank you, Mr. Westwood.

I’m not sure if you’ve heard of a place called Discovery Camp or Texas Bible Institute, but it was similar on a smaller scale. It’s in a small Texas town. I was there for about 3.5 years and I’ve been trying to unlearn all of it since I left. So so crazy. But when you’re in the bubble, you feel pressured to have the same experience as everyone else.

Thank's for sharing, interesting to hear about these things. About orbs - people in New Age see orbs too.

This is insane! thanks for speaking up

Ok the part about the gas tank testimonies 😂 I did a loud nasal “HAA” that I hoped didn’t wake my sleeping baby 😂 I used to be in the world where people attributed things like that to miraculous things and it’s just so funny to think about. Sad but funny.

Wonder if Isaiah or Jeremiah had to practice prophecy?

I had an awful experience at a meeting in 2001 in Pittsburgh, PA. A guy named "Prophet Dennis Cramer." He had everybody whipped up with the "High Praises of God." On and on and on--people shouting & "praising God." Just when I thought it would wane, he started it up again. Such a surreal and frightening experience. God only knows what my kids were being exposed to in "kids church." This guys still going strong.

Enjoying the videos as a former charismatic. Thanks mate

I was in a "ministry" school at the same time, all of this is so relatable to me, over the past 3 years I've had to deconstruct all of this junk..so very relatable! Thanks for speaking out!!

Learning so much! 🤯

Hey Jesse, loved the episode. I can understand some of what you are saying. For me I love worship and prayer nights which include a prophetic touch of singing courses from the scriptures. Being in prayer rooms which do this have always been very encouraging to me and helped me both in intimacy with Jesus and getting personal revelation needed for peace concerning certain issues. I would agree with you the drunk in the spirit or high on the spirit extremes are not good. I will share with you an experience I had with the Holy spirit about 5 years ago during a time of discouragement. I went to prayer and as I was in the presence of God, a supernatural joy came over me where I laughed in the Spirit for probably 30 minutes straight. It was amazing! I didn't seek an experience, I sought the Lord and he answered me with this supernatural manifestation of Joy. But yeah I totally agree, zeal is good but a culture that calls every little 'sign' a miracle isn't healthy.

God bless you brother❤️🙏🏽

20/20 hindsight happens I believe when people leave this type of "culture." We were never into Bethel, but we attended services at Toronto, Brownsville, Smithton, IHOP and were in churches who promoted these places. We believed everything our leaders told us and only after we walked away from organized religion and read for ourselves what the Bible says did we realize so much of what we were taught was not scriptural. I think the eye opener for us was when our Messianic rabbi started promoting Todd Bentley-every service was a recap of him and what was happening on God TV. There was a group of us that felt troubled in our spirits about this and one member approached the rabbi about her concerns. We are ALL told to shut up and never speak negatively about him again. Not long after, Mr Bentley was exposed for what he was. Did the rabbi ever apologize to us for being wrong? A half-hearted effort, at best. Not long after we left there too due to so much compromise in their theology. What is sad, is despite people seeing his error, they continue to follow him and attend his congregation. Thanks, again for shining a light on a very serious problem in the Body of Messiah.

We did a conference in Iceland in 2007 and a lot of my pics showed orbs everywhere!!

When I was in college someone our age in the church went to BSSM and every single thing you mention was brought back. It caused a tons of issues but unfortunately the bethel influence is strong there and those that saw through and discerned ending it up leaving. The drunk thing, coins on walls, etc.

I remember the coins lol! Also, I went to the Crowder/Dunn meetings.

I think John Crowder is an example of someone who has done it right. He hasnt swung the opposite way and bought in to all the reformed Calvinist "American gospel" stuff that I think is equally problematic. Instead he has leaned into ancient faith. Church father's and mothers. Eastern Orthodoxy. Catholicism. Reading Patristic theology. But he has held onto the charismatic dimension. It's so fascinating and honestly so much more appealing to me . I think John Crowder (along with people like Brian Zahnd, Brad Jersak etc) are all examples of christian leaders who are succeeding in integrating all expressions of faith into a Christianity that is so much more healthy and whole and nuanced.

I witnessed labor pains or “travailing in the spirit” as they called it. I didn’t realize it had anything to do with bethel. It was circa 2006-2007. And it was the wackiest thing I had ever seen. I wanted nothing to do with it then and I was in the full Charismatic NAR type movement full speed with no questions at the time. But this behavior was nuts to me even then. And the “toking the Ghost” as they called it. In Fl. This would have been the same time frame at Todd Bentley in Lakeland. That’s where all this stuff was picked up and brought back to my church in Central Fl at the time. Bethel was essentially unheard of then, but was obviously coming to the forefront without people knowing it. Because Todd was “anointed by all the NAR greats.

I believe in the continuation of the gifts but I too question many of the practices. I’m a fan of Remnant Radio. Helps bring a check to the charismatic craziness.

Again, thanks for the videos! As an outsider that hears those things that bethel see so wonky and is so different from orthodox Christianity. Most of Christians outside of bethel look at it and find it hard to see how anyone could do that stuff that’s so contrary to scripture ( ex. The worship night sounds almost like a Wiccan ceremony that I head about from a friend, except afterwards they had an orgy; don’t know if the orgy was a normal practice) You’re doing the wonderful job of explaining it to us so we can see that yes, the practices are bad but to remember that the people are mislead. It allows us to empathize with them more and I truly appreciate it!

Thankyou for making these videos. I went to catch the fire torontos school of ministry for 2 years which is basically the Canadian bethel. I experienced so many weird things and wrong doctrines. Gods been researching me the true gospel.

Re:Coins sticking in the wall. I’m a middle school teacher, and one day I walked into my classroom and there was a dozen pencils stuck flat against the wall all over my room. My students started bursting out laughing because while I was gone they found out that if you rub it the right way against the wall, they can get it to stick. If I don’t take the pencils down, those pencils stay up. I’m sure the same is true of coins. Something about the pressure and the paint on the wall makes it so that light enough objects can stick.

This whole birthing thing, come, spiritual baby, is something I witnessed a lot when in the New Age. Wow I did not know it is also in the Church or should I say Hogwartz Divination under the guise of prophecy. Oh there we go ...tongues was brought up *face palms*

11:20 that sounds so triggering. I've had minor addiction issues (not substances, blessed be God, mainly reading) and the impulse still floats up for me when I'm exposed to something I would have done at the same time. I can't imagine how much worse it is for someone who has had a physiological addiction to see something like an active imitation of that behavior that was their downfall previously.

@15:40 Gas tanks. I tried having “faith” for gas, and I ran out! And a senior citizen neighbor was my passenger at the time!! This type of “faith” is sheer NONSENSE!!!

I bought a Honda but I should have bought a Kia.... dude, you made my day with that one. 🤣🤣

Praise the Lord.

The scary thing is, if the coin never falls to the ground, who is keeping it to the wall😨😣😅 that would be the consequence of replacing scripture with experience😖 and the funny thing is, for some reason they say they can hear God but do not have the biblical guide to practice.... and by the way, how is it that it is a christian thing to practice prophesying when we cannot use God's name in vain?😕 God bless!!!😊 great episode

I feel so bad for the folks who live in Reading, CA and have to put up with these people from Bethel in their businesses, stores, etc. Charis Bible College in Woodland Park, CO. is very similar and often hosts Bill Johnson at their events. Located in a very small mountain town where there was a constant presence of the bible college "students" everywhere.

I understand your statement and "wondering' of 'was this God?", as not to quinch what He might possibly have done, and I agree, that there is a certain aspect of innocence involved with seeing a "miracle" every where we look...it's childlike, and there is a sweet aspect to that reaction and a needed protection of true innocence to a degree. - like a child, they are raw and "innocent" for only a very short time, and as someone who adores children, I try to protect that as long as possible. I believe though, that it's the 'reasoning' that gets accosted, as we are supposed to use reason and maturity to understand life, etc, and that aspect gets pushed aside and even denigrated if used in those circumstances, then "Don't quench the Holy Spirit" becomes a control mechanism to bind our consciences to their will. ( I think that's what I have had to deal with in regard to that saying anyway). Is it God??... Deut:13 is a pretty good indicator of our response regardless. THANKS for the video and your honesty, though this is BRUTAL to watch and recall this stuff!👍

I like your chronological account of your bethel experience @bssm. As a recovering alcoholic and drug user I have no respect for this craziness of drunk or high in spirit, it is NOT BIBLICAL and I hope they are passed that... 2 Questions should be asked about things NOT in scripture#1 is it scriptural in principal ?#2 Does it glorify God ? MY BROTHER you need not be a preacher or prophet to share your experience, strength and hope, LOVE to you and fam.

Praying in tongues…“Shoulda bought a Honda…” hahaha

I call those prophecies “horoscope” prophecies now. I use to think prophets could see into my mind and it made me so paranoid if I was ever “not doing things good enough,” in my life.

I'm always Leary when the focus is on material miracles instead of actual physical like the blind seeing or the lame walking. sure you hear about them from some remote village in Africa but yet when it comes to most of these type ministries only the sore back and neck pains are healed and the wheelchairs and the truly ill remain just that.

Mr. Westwood, can you give a Biblical example of what scriptual "discernment" is for us and what that is used for??? Thanks!

I’m a photographer as well and I’ve never seen dust and specs look like that… unless someone has intentionally placed a lot of dirt/dust in the camera sensor? Truly confused by that one.

Thanks for your videos!! Quick question, I heard there was an actual laughing barrel that you could stick your head into and get more of the Spirit? Did you ever see this when you were there?

I spent a few months at Bethel in 2010. I could see the appeal. It's a positive place, the people I spent time with were creative and fun. They also do a lot of things with excellence. The things that concerned me were a lack of the mention of the cross (especially at School worship times), no mention of repentance and statements such as 'we'd better make this legal' said before Bill would open his Bible to read a verse pat the end of a message. Im still chatasmatic, but a lot more reformed in my Theology.

Hey great work. Is that a real tree in the background or a painting? My wife and I are having a bet😊

Coins sticking to the wall - Last winter I threw a nutty on preYing medik from AZ who believes and promotes this whole "movement" and writes books on this stuff and is on Tgrm and was showing and teaching videos of it and asking the Holy Spirit to stick coins to the wall, but for some reason they weren't sticking, in which I started in ( I am a professional house painter for decades) blasting his posts until 4am in which he finally kicked me off for saying that what he was teaching was heresy, giving scripture to back it, reasoned arguments against it and the stupidity of such a mindless and fruitless act of defiance, and finally stated that the coins were'nt sticking because the wall board wasn't primed or painted, and it takes no effort for a coin to stick to latex rubber if applied- which is what latex paint is (acts like a glue- simple science), and there's no doubt there's a little glue demon making sure you believe that it's significant so as to turn you away from the living and true God😉. - So, instead of trying to convince me of the truth of their claims and how great this will change our lives and it's significance, they hightail it and run. I am still banned to this day

You seems like stressed out just recalling it Been there done it... But God is good to open our eyes and delivered us from that kind of religion and culture.

Yes, they went too far, but caution, there are others that go too far in the other direction. God is legitimately at work all around us all the time. It's important to learn to see how He is without making stuff up.

More than just creating an environment where you don't discern things, it's an environment where people will feel pressured or emboldened to falsify miracles. Don't you think? At some point there was a kid that knew the coin trick and started the trend of calling it a miracle to begin with.