British Rail Oxford to Cambridge1967 + Rugby Central To Nottingham Arkwright Street 1969 

long term planning and uk railways dont mix

The Rail Demolition men of the 20th Century, Up yours Beeching.

wasn't a high speed line, nor did it serve the places HS2 is meant to serve

Ref the post about it not matching the HS2 routes, respectfully, that's not the issue , it's that from the Lines to Frazerburgh and Peterhead ( now up for reopening ) the Callander line ( another that's in the ' fund your rail list ) , in Perthshire, , The Waverley route , for which easy paths through Carlisle and onto the Settle line, all removed . ( And including the link to the east coast mainline, something the ' Borders line phase 2 , has included , IS a link again , reusing I believe the Kelsi branch, to give as I read a much needed east west link , The line to Stranraer and Into the Cairnryan port ( a plan proposed by the Scottish government as the A75 is too expensive to dual ) and damaging to the environment. Then as you go south. lines like Skipton Colne, putting back a gap in a local ' network ', . In Yorkshire the York- Beverley route , as the road between York and Hull is overloaded and lethal , in addition they mentioned restoring a line that ran from Goole , howden Mkt weighton and the east coast of Yorkshire . It linked ultimately to the east coast mainline. This one was shown on a ' campaign map ', but appeared to for part of the way a proposed new built line, heading off to hull ( a proposed extension to the HS3 or whatever it was due to be called for the east of England). The Grand central was largely straight and I think the point trying to be made about not having closed it . Or at least had some kind of ' rail bank ' where closed routes are protected no matter in the event they are needed , which the GC , would be well used . The current two heritage lines , if joined and linked at each end to national rail , if national rail services could run in those lines linking back to them lost connections , to nearby , open lines , it may provide a useful link , and prove that Without doubt it would provide extra capacity . HS2 is a great idea , but is the HS2 line long enough. , Given the stations planned for for the proposed 250 mph running?. It's a nice to have , HS2, but it doesn't really fix localised or national capacity issues . Like the electrification of the west coast mainline before the early 1970's it ( pardon the pun ) , runs out of steam at a random point just north of Crewe. And if it's trains dont tilt, they will be limited to 110mph. ( On the west coast) , not sure about other lines . So really it only serves a fraction of the UK , they could have started when the tunnel was being built . If government had been .ore open-minded , a fast west coast ' new line ' could have been built to Scotland, with a reopened Waverley route , the Carstairs line, could have been upgraded for very high speed running , to take traffic ' HS' trains to Edinburgh. And that's not fantasy but , just an example of a rail network that might be better value , and with the extra capacity of reopening lines closed on bad figures, and a pro road lobby ( with an agenda ) . One could argue , it would go a long way to aiding tackling climate change , probably in part caused , by closing lines , and forcing cars and trucks through villages and towns , that previously had a rail service.

@@olly5764 The alignment was absolutely a high speed line in the main.

I agree Mark Atkins, Great way for the Government to save money, not.

@@scottpeacock5492 According to the internet, it was faster to go via London.. or dare I say it by car in the 1960's. Thats what the decision was based on.

@@richardstringer6162 As of 2019 it isn't fast to travel into London by car as their far too much traffic on the Road, Too many cars, it far quicker by train then car, but you still have to travel South into St Pancras if you want to go to Oxford you go via London Marylebone, It far too expensive and takes 3 hours, I would rather go East West by train if I want to go to Oxford and one last thing not everybody drives.

I think I read that in Germany no infrastructure can be demolished until 50 years after railway closure.. Never any strategic planning in UK, in fact it's normally the opposite, demolish it immediately. Like let's demolish all coal fired power stations before we even have capacity for our own or planned demand......

Proving how short sighted it was to axe all these lines now they’re reappearing. Privatisation was just as ill judged, the UK isn’t big enough to have a fractured system. Bring back British Rail but this time subsidies it properly!

But just how lo g would you need to mothball them for? The March go Wisbech line has been mothballed for about 20 years and over that time has lost the use of its level crossings as all have had the rails removed an the gaps filled with tarmac. This plus the trees and bushes in the track bed means many more thousands will be needed before this mothballed line will be ready for use.

@@neiloflongbeck5705 True but it is about keeping the tack beds ready for future use. All growth can be removed fairly quickly. I believe they mothball in Europe.

@@dulls8475 it's not just the trees and shrubs, but all the level crossing, points, track circuits and signals that need to be maintained and upgraded. Plus route knowledge that needs to br maintained. These costs all add up. And for how long are the tax payers prepared to spend this money? A year, 5, 10 25? The Bramley line has been mothballed for almost 25 years with no form plans for reopening, just vague hopes. Mothballing in Europe is a recent thing. Lines closed in the last decade or 2 have been mothballed in some areas. In others they've been lifted. I believe it's done on a case by case basis.

@@neiloflongbeck5705 I think they could be mothballed with minimal cost. I think bridges would be the major cost. What I mean is the land is preserved and not sold off or changes into anything else. So a line can be relayed with modern signalling at a later date.

@@dulls8475 I recently drove along the Bramley Line and apart from the trees growing on the trackbed all the level crossings had been removed and the slots the track occupied were filled in, including the crossing on the A47 (the major obstruction to line reopening - it took over 40 years to get the level crossing at King's Dyke to be replaced by a bridge and that was on a less busy road and a busy railway line. The few bridges over water courses hadn't been painted since before the last train ran and IIRC that train only ran a couple of times per week at most. Yes, preserving the track bed could result in a lower cost if reinstating a line, but examples of putting the line to another use exist. Take the line serving the Boulby Potash Mine. When the line to Loftus closed in the August 1963 and the tracks removed back to Carlin How and BSc Skinningrove the decision was taken to realign the A174 to remove a notorious sharp bend on the western side of the line. The required the removal of the embankment and the bridge the road went under. The old road remains as a layby. But less than a decade later they started digging the potash mine and the line was reinstated with a viaduct filling the gap as the North Yorkshire Moors National Park didn't want hundreds of lorries filling up the roads. They chose Boulby as there were already mine workings in the area and because it was just within the national park unlike Hawsker which was surrounded by it. Atbthe time the embankment was removed no one was talking about having the mine close to that line. However, the removal of the sharp bend has saved lives, reduced injuries and motor insurance costs over the years. The other problem with the railway network as it was at its peak was the facts that stations were often a long walk from the village they served. Take Wansford, for example, it had 2 stations serving it (Wansford on the LNWR and Wansford Road on the GNR). Both were over a mile from the village centre, with Wansford Road being a few yards closer. The bus stop was in the centre of the village, so people went by bus instead. Today they have to go by car as neither rail or bus services serve the village, if you exclude the Nene Valley Railway.

No, because they're dead. Also the Oxford to Cambridge closure wasn't in the Beeching Report.

what? beeching completed his report to the labour party....who closed the lines. not marples / not beeching.

Now using the same data that Beeching had (the monthly and annual returns from each station) and without the benefit of 60 years of hindsight, tell the world which loss making lines would be kept? An impossible task I can assure you, because at the time they just as certain as you that they were right as you are today certain they were wrong.

@@neiloflongbeck5705 Beeching had nil experience of how railways, had an agenda to help Ernie Marples with his Motorway and Road building so what better than to cut the network using data. However, that did not take into account a number of factors namely where routes fed traffic into main lines, keeping routes which might have future purpose or potential, removing some stations to make faster journeys, bus services which linked up with trains etc.

@@johnhealy8513 please provide evidence of the alleged collusion as so far no one has found any that holds water. As for future potential over what kind of time span? And who was anyone going to be able to predict it when they all failed to predict the collapse of the Pound only a year after the 1st Beeching report was published. They had the data on just how much freight and passenger numbers coming off each line fed into the mainlines because each station kept records of tickets sold each day and how much freight was dispatched. This is how, if you read the 1st Beeching report it states that over 1,000 coal receiving locations received no wagons in the 12 month period the report considered and that many others received fewer than 5 wagons per week. Did he, a physicist and engineer and member of the board for ICI, make the figures up or did he and his team look at the trafic returns from each location? So whilst he didn't have railway specific experience he did have experience in running a large business? How many of the politicians elected by the country have experience in governing a country until elected? How many Immigration Ministers have worked in immigration before being appointed? Your argument is fatuous to the extreme, tainted by your pathological hatred of Beeching, whi was just continuing what the Big 4 and BTC's Unremunitive Lines Committee had already been doing. As for the causes of the deficit that BR was facing we just need to look at the party that is supposedly pro-business, the Conservatives, for messing things up by capping what BR could charge for passengers and freight at a time when costs were rising. Yes, they did make assumptions about behaviours that in general did not come to pass, like the idea that people,e would drive to a station to catch a train ti their destination. But when the line to Buntingford closed commuters to London did just that, so it wasn't a wholly unjustified assumption.

@@neiloflongbeck5705Beeching was heavily in cahoots with Marples of Marples Ridgway fame to encourage road building and his Reshaping of British Railways was geared to helping that cause. It is true that some of the Beeching cuts were a sensible idea but there were many that were not ie The Waverley Route and Great Central which are being rebuilt as the Borders Union Railway and HS2. Beeching did do two good things in establishing Freightliner and the Corporate BR image. Many people I have known in BR and one who was close to Beeching have told me that as well as doing a lot of good he did far more damage for not keeping stations in places with high populations, some strategic routes (Oxford to Cambridge) and those that could have future potential (Great Central) (Ivanhoe Line). Now to say that my argument is fatuous is not only rude but also incorrect as I always base my statements on evidence. On top of that I am not a Beeching hater, but on reading his two part report it is readily apparent how many mistakes he made at the time. Had he been axting on his own we would have probably had an even better railway system.

@@johnhealy8513 err what evidence? All I can see is more opinions with nothing to support your house of cards. This is how you do evidence. Even portions of the NBR, according to John Thomas in Forgotten Railways: Scotland, considered the Waverley Route as a financial millstone and they built the line. Anyone travelling from Edinburgh would be London almost half an hour earlier by the ECML than the Waverley Route and then the Midland to St Pancras, according to Martin Bairstow in The Leeds, Settle and Carlisle Railway. The 1st Beechi g Report identifies that the stations on the Waverley Route between Hawick and Carlisle had 5000 or less passengers per week and the rest of the line had between 5000 and 10000 passengers per week. The average operating cost for a diesel hauled freight train the Waverley route, according to David Spaven in Waverley Route: The Battle for the Borders Railway, was 12.39 shillings per train mile, which Mr Spaven says was one of the worst in Scotland. The Varsity Line was not included in the list of lines for consideration for closure even though at that time, according to Disused Stations, it was quicker to travel from Oxford to Cambridge via Londo from the October 1950 Timetable (also in Disused Stations) it was also more convenient to travel via London as there was only 1 train per day between the Oxford and Cambridge. So, it's easy to conclude that it was hardly a strategic railway asset. Marples had sold his shares in Marples Ridgeway in January 1960 and had been trying to do so since becoming the Minister of Transport in October 1959. He had resigned as Chairman in 1951. There is evidence to show that he ever used undue influence in the issuing of contracts. But perhaps you have some, Jews your chance to put your cards on the table j dtead of repeating libels. Whilst it can be seen with the benefits of hindsight that there were mistakes made by Beeching and the BTC's Unremunitive Lines Committee and the the management of the Big 4 in regards to the closing of lines, these could not have been seen as errors at the time. Let's look closely at the Beeching era. BR was losing around £100,000 per day. According to Timmonet BR started life with 1941 prices and 1948 costs and this only worsened in the 1950s as the Conservative governments prevented BR from rising tariffs and prices to cover the rising costs a situation that no other transport business was facing. The funny thing is that in 1940 senior civil servants knew that the wartime government policies would eventually bankrupt the railways (Timmonet). The legislation that governed BR made it illegal for BR to make profit and the archaic freight tariffs policy drove freight onto the roads (Timmonet) long before Marples was in the Ministry of Transport. The Beeching Report identified that a third of the tracks carried 1% of all traffic and did not make sufficient money to cover maintenance costs let alone the costs of operating the services, it also identified that two thirds of the coaching stock were in full use. This is how you give evidence. You cite your source, not some unidentifiable ex-railway employee whose evidence cannot be assessed as verifiable.

The reality today is the southern part of what was the GCR Aylesbury Vale south into Marylebone is an extremely busy and vibrant part of the commuter network into London. There simply is no way a high speed service could share this railway.

You need about double the width for HS2 than the old GC line.

thearguments for HS2 would still stand as the GC served very little of the objectives of HS2

I agree with you regarding the waste of money that it is HS2👍

@@Shelfandtabletoplayouts00gauge Also with people now working from home, en masse and meeting through Zoom, how many commuters will never return to long or short commutes. If there were any logic to HS2 why was not the northern leg started first. Links from Birmingham to London are already very fast. Will students and low budget travelers pay a premium fare to save about 20 minutes on a one and half hour journey and Euston is central London. How long will the journey be from Old Oak Common to Euston, with the prospect of more luggage dragging. When it doesn't pay they will down grade West coast services and put the prices up. Sixty years from now HS2 may share the same fate as the much loved GCR, even if the cheap steel the contractors are buying, is up to the job.

And just think how much debt we would have saddled them with if lines like the GCML were kept open? Don't for get for a high speed line you need almost double the width of land that the old GC stood on.

@@neiloflongbeck5705 The GC closure was fiddled. It didn't need to be demolished the route could have been left as a green lane or cycle way throughout. In Germany any closed line cannot be demolished for 50 years after closure, just in case things change as they have. We already have sufficiently high speed trains in the UK. Our geography and population densities are very different to the continental countries. Our great grandchildren will be paying for this HST fallacy along with all the other huge debts we will leave them ....

Hugh Terry for most places the old goods by this period would be household coal, and that was already in terminal decline.

@Eric Texan Not on it original route though, Much of it track bed has been taken up by the guided busway from Cambridge to St Ives.. The New plan is for the line to go via Shepreth Junction, Route B involves running from the Marston Vale line to a new Bedford South station before then running to a relocated Sandy (to the north Tempsford area or south of St. Neots). The route heads east to a new station in Cambourne before swinging south to join the existing line northbound to Cambridge.

Excellent

Zelda Fitzgerald, Don't you think it a bit late now for Ernest Marples to be investigated, He died in 1978 according to Wikipedia.

I found it on RU-vid about 15 years ago. I downloaded it. A bit later I discovered it had been taken down. Can't remember the name of the channel. So I reposted it. So far nobody has objected to it. I'm not passing it off as my own work. If I knew who filmed it I would credit them.

That's fine by me. I don't know who the camera person was, unfortunately.

@@MegaStrangeWorld very kind - thank you!

Scott Peacock the line was unecomonic with poor links to the ECML expresses. Anyone in Oxford wanting to get to Newcastle would have gone via Birmingham, and those in Bedford would have gone via Leicester. The new Varsity line will have the same failing when it crosses the ECML and thus it will becof limited benefit.

The Cambridge - Oxford line was not in the Beeching Plan as neither were most of the lines closed in 1967 - 1970 in East Anglia. You can blame Barbara Castle for that . The Labour Party decried Beeching but then made matters far worse. Towns like Wisbech , St. Ives, Dereham and Hunstanton all lost their railways thanks to that wretched woman.

Scott Peacock they did not care then, nor later.

Airscrew1, You say Rail travel is too expensive to travel on, But you can afford to run a car, you know that running a car for a year is a total of £168,880, that include your tax insurance petrol and breakdown cover, not everyone can afford such luxury such as you, www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/782992/car-costs-uk-service-repair-MOT-petrol-fuel-price If you want to carry on damaging our eviroment with all your car pollution, Go ahead my friend.,traveling on a train is cheaper then a car.

Timothy Smith tho do remember, the unions feather bedded much of BR. ASELF were run by Commies, their policy was public be damned.

isaacs world of boxing, Look on the Express website newspaper link I posted on the last comment I posted 11 months ago, Here the low down cost on running a car a year. £168.46 a year £10,865 over a lifetime PETROL £89.67 a month £69,404 over a lifetime Servicing £441 a year £28,444 over a lifetime Parking £12.15 a month £9,404 over a lifetime Insurance £436 a year £28,122 over a lifetime Tax and Tolls £116.35 a year £7,504 over a lifetime Car supplies £29.61 a year £1909 over a lifetime Holiday rental car £180 a year £11,610 over a lifetime Parking / speeding tickets £25.12 a year £1,620 over a lifetime TOTAL £168,880

How about all the foreigners here blocking the roads

you talk straight from the clueless book. Beechings report completed went to the labour party who were in power. they closed the lines not marples or beeching.

Rob Tyman Britain is the invention of the Railway dating back to 1830's and we have thick mps running our Government in this country, they didn't care then and they certainly don't care now, All they should have done was closed the line and reserve these lines for future use, Oh no they did the opposite.