Trace Velo have tried out similar pulley wheels, and found that they clog up with dirt almost immediately and are worse than the original after just a few miles. Unsealed bearings are not worth it if you are running them for any real distances between bearing services.
Well he did put the seals back on after ... Also maybe wheels and bottom bracket depend on how stuff fits on side of bearing might protect from dirt enough to not need seals on bearings
Average Joe you-tuber with 200 subscribers: “ok, these pulley wheels don’t fit, I’m going to order the good ones and retake the video and see how it goes”… GCN: “Nah… let’s assume they fit, who cares, we’re not going to spend another $12 with our tight budget”
Nice one for those of us who are component pests. I enjoy tinkering with mechanisms in search of marginal performance improvements. But I also have a recurring nightmare about reducing my perfectly functional bike to a pile of dismantled components because I think that I know better than Shimano. 🙂
If it makes you feel any better, you can rest easy. 1, you're not alone in this. 2, I perpetually have a bike in a pile because I know more than everyone😂
@@ghowell13 Exactly! I've had a rear cassette humming away in an ultrasonic cleaner today when (if I'm honest with myself) dish cleaner and a paint brush would have been fine.
Ive had the ultersonic running all weekend, lol. My daughter and I race BMX. Shes grown 2 frame sizes over the off season, and I'm building up 2 bikes for her, and rebuilding a bime for myself, as I got it used and didn't know the service history. Everything went in for a heated bath, it seemed. My poor, long suffering wife. And next weekend is Mother's Day here in the US....
One problem with changing the top pulley is it has no side float. This can make setting up and maintaining the indexing a real bore. I have changed my top pulleys back to Shimano just to regain the side to side float and get better shifting and quieter running.
Yeah the modern derailleurs don't have that float. It's also taken out of the shifter. The old shifters (ultegra 6800 mechanical for example) used to push the upper pulley just a fraction past the cog, then settle back into alignment. With Di2 this stopped being viable.
@@galenkehler I'm glad I read this reply. I'm someone with old Ultegra 6800, and have been considering updating to Di2. But knowing the upper had float in it on my GS I have now, and newer ones don't, just both saved me more tinkering with my indexing, and not looking for it on the newer Gas. I honestly didnt know it was there. Ive had a time with ibdexing/ louder running drive train for a while now, and now know why. I changed both pulleys put to some ones similar to the ones in this video quite some time ago. Thank you.
Bought a set of sealed-ceramic pulleys several years ago. No cares about "marginal gains", but they have survived quite well without developing any binding or grittiness, and have required no disassembly or re-greasing, which is what I was after.
The aluminium jockey wheel spins longer mostly because its weight is distributed more around the edge of the wheel than near the centre (it has more rotational inertia).
I didn't think I'd ever side with Hambini, but I have to this time. The fact that a bearing spins fast (especially with no lubrication) has absolutely no bearing on how it will perform under load.
I was going to point this out as well. It's just a mistake to believe that the length of the freespin is an indicator of the loaded drag. But it looks and feels "fast".
I second to that! Plus, one can wonder for how long are they going to last. Under load they might seize in no time compared to the modest pulleys with bushings that seem to last forever.
Lovely video Johnson 👏👏👏! I can't get the thought out of my mind that if any of these modifications to the original Dura Ace jockey wheels actually improved long and short term performance, Shimano would have made the modifications themselves to their OEM parts. After all, we are talking about Shimano's "price is no factor" component. One thing not mentioned in this video is the extra length of chain needed to accommodate oversized jockey wheels. That means even more grams added beyond the extra weight of the oversized jockey wheels and the larger cage. I'm all for tinkering on my bike, but beyond the bling colors of these replacement jockey wheel assemblies, I just don't feel the love. P.S. It would be cool if Shimano did offer their premium rear derailleurs with color options for the jockey wheels. GOLD jockey wheels with a gold chain!!! 🙌🙌🙌
The drag from these tiny pulley wheel stock bearings is pretty much negligible compared the frictional losses from the the loaded chain. Even the bearings from the wheel hubs have far more significant drag. You are not going to see any measureable difference in wattage savings but the bearings will not last nearly as long
If OSPWs are so advantageous, how come Shimano doesn’t just increase the stock sizes to get better chain articulation in the top of the line range where prices are less of a factor. There must be a reason they stick with the smaller pulley wheels.
Probably manufacturing reasons? At least the upper 2-3 tiers of group sets are usually the exact same dimensions, only lighter materials up the range. If you had an OSPW Di2 mech, you have to engineer it twice. I learned that Di2/Ultegra/105 have different specs of pulley wheels, so cross-compatibility might not be an issue but the gains are probably not worth the effort for the mass market. If somebody really wants to squeeze out every watt and gram, he can still go to Ceramicspeed.
@@DoNuT_1985 yes they do have a different spec because of the narrow chain for 11 or 12 speed. If Shinamo thought this was a real they would of made them long ago There the biggest bike component company in the world manufacturing this is not a problem for them. Ceramic speed is just a good marketing company that also making bike parts just .like McDonald's is a real estate company that sell burgers
I had bought the alu ones for my xt 12 speed derailleur and ended up messing my shifting so I went back to my oe shimano ones which I had taken off as soon as I had bought the groupset now its working great. i also found out the oe ones have specific way they go on, the top wheels has more slack while the lower one is more stiff to better shifting while the alu chinese ones are all the same(stiff)
For me this video again confirms there are so many better marginal upgrades than OSPW! Using bearings that wear significantly faster to save ~1 watt is up there with single use carbon chainrings!
The genuine CeramicSpeed bearings have low friction seals that are reasonably effective at preventing ingress, however they are not as effective as standard bearing seals. They will also be a full ceramic system with extremely tight tolerances, whereas the cheap ones are a hybrid with steel races, and are of a lower build quality.. The hybrid bearings wear out quicker than full ceramic. The high end OSPW systems are well designed and robust enough for hard riding, but they are definitely far from cost affective as an upgrade option for watt saving.
As a former downhill skateboarder, I found that Rex Domestique chain lube was the best bearing lube. When I did downhill skateboarding, bearings and bearing lube became something of a passion of mine, so I've tried lots and lots of different ones.
I did another variant of budget oversized pulley wheels on my winter bike... The original Shimano STX pulley wheels were worn out and instead of buying new ones, I cannibalised a 9-speed Shimano XT derailleur and got two extra teeth on the pulley wheels and better bearings... Just needed some spacers to bring the 9-speed pulley wheels to 7-speed width...
Already done this to a 1980s Super Record rear Der, marked improvement to the old Jockey wheels which were basically a bush fitting. Also updated a Chorus RD with the same again marked improvement with a sealed bearing over a bush fitting. As for how long they last, few thousand klm on mine so far and no issues. But cheap to replace, and I did get some bling gold ones.
I purchased a circa 1995 Lynsky made Performance frame. Built it with Campy Centaur and Campy aluminum wheels. It rides just as good as my Eddy Merckx carbon frame bike. All for a fraction of the price.
Interesting video, my "old" bike has plain sleeve bearings in the 9 spd jockey wheels and they don't spin freely at all - doesn't feel like much drag, but if you stop turning them they stop dead - for £15 I might try a set of these.
If you want to test how freely they spin, put a weight on the end of a chain and loop it over the pulley wheel then drop the weight and see how long it spins for after 🤷♂️
@@andyn666 or, the races are steel, and the bearings are ceramic. Ceramic is harder than the steel, and will wear the races. Thats how a LOT of the "ceramic" bearings sold are set up, as hybrids.
I bought pulley wheels with ceramic bearings a long time ago. There was a noticeable difference in performance and they worked much better. However, I don't recommend replacing wheels just to replace them. BTW, the new wheel had more bearings than the original.
If you're fixing new ceramic bearing pulley wheels, where can you find out the largest size teeth you can get? Was thinking of doing this to my 11T Ultegra pulleys but wanted to know if I could increase the size of them within my same derailleur
I wouldn’t bother taking grease out of the pulley wheel bearings and adding a lighter oil. It may feel faster spinning freely, but with load on it there will be zero gain. The light oil will run and wash out much faster. Dirt will get in easier, especially if you damage the seals when removing or replacing. You’ll have the opposite effect quickly and have to replace the jockey wheels before long.
I ordered a carbon oversized cage from Ali Express for about 30 euros and replaced the pully wheels with ceramic ones that even match my bike color! It's been on my bike for 2 years now, and it still shifts just fine. I didn't order it for any gains, purely for the looks of it. 😎
Hi, Thank you for the valuable information, but I have a question: Dura Ace is made as the best product for the professional cyclists, and it definitely is the best combination and configuration of the Shimano parts. Why shouldn't they use a bigger jockey wheel on their high-end product? The speed of the chain while pedaling at about 90 RPM and a chain ring of 50 teeth is about 100Cm/sec. and the speed of the jockey wheels are about 7.14 RPS, which throughs most particles on the chain out of the segments regarding the centrifugal force. It makes the chain clean. I have tested it, and now I am using 10t ceramic jockey wheels belonging to my old Deore XT groupset. I do not need to clean the sands and grimes from my chain any more, although I ride long distances on gravel roads too. Apart from the excessive lateral forces on the bigger jockey wheels, extra weights, aerodynamic problems and problems with the rocks on the road, I would be grateful if you please let me know the reason of installing bigger cage and jockey wheels. Best Regards,
its not because its terrible. it does have alot of benefits, but those benefits are mostly in shorter trips. the benefit in efficiency is only small and due to how easy they get crap building up, they wind up becoming worse really quick. this is ultimately why it got dropped
Im glad the video was released even with the Amazon pulleys not working out. I’m a n00b and run into dead ends like this all the time. Good to know even the pros experience this. Granted, it wasn’t his fault, but still.
Could you do a video on single sided chains? The ones that have a flat edge and standard edge. What are they for, any benefit and what they work with? Can’t see any videos on them in the search. Ta!
Nice. Wait a minute.... Are those jockey wheel designed for a 9-speed derailleur? It looks like it's just as wide as the jockey wheels on the 9-speed rear derailleur. I know this, because I use a 3x9 group on my touring bike.
I’m more concerned with the smallest cogs on the cassette. I’ve never found them smooth to ride on. On my 11-30 GRX I’d gladly loose the smallest cog for a 12-34 (10 speed) arrangement.
This is exactly why I am averse to SRAM AXS. I have no interest in a 10t cog. I almost never go fast enough to use it, let alone wanting to compromise chain friction (for a flat top chain) and have a special freehub just to accommodate it. I would much rather have a 12-30 or 12-34t cassette and thereby have more usable gears in the speed and cadence range I actually spin at 90% of the time.
@@mmmbetter55 I used to get custom cassettes from Harris Cyclery, that were assembled with just that philosophy -- aimed at touring riders who'd rather trade useless high gears for more gears in the cruising range. e.g.: 14,15,17,19,21,24,27,30,34
I tried out aluminium pulley wheels, but i got back to original Campagnolo... The noise is just annoying and the shifting quality decreases, while the bearing gets worn out...
If chain articulation angle is a concern, people shouldn't be running 10, 11, or 12 tooth cassette cogs. Additionally, the chain is under high-tension when pulling on the cassette whereas it is not when wrapped around derailleur pulleys. Alex didn't do a "spin test" of the unmodified pulleys. Maybe they spun more freely before cleaning and oiling. Or maybe the seals got damaged when they were removed (since you're really not supposed to remove them).
Is there any downside going from grease to oil in the bearings? In literally every service video I've watched here, mechanics have been using some kind of grease instead of oils, at least when you're used to riding pretty much a full season without servicing?
Grease will cost a half a watt possibly. But service life is much longer over oil. Oil will be fast but cleaning and maintaining will be 3x more frequent. For best results do. 25% fill with a fast grease like park tool hpg or finish line ceramic grease
@@discbrakefan a half watt is a notable gain for such a small thing. It's up to the person to decide of the cleaning effort is worth it. I only do it for A races and a tend to ride a few hundred miles afterwards before I replace with grease and the grease lasts me until my next A race. I have a lot of bikes so I really only do this once a year with my TT bike. Also, not all seals are created equal. Some seals hold water and dust out very well regardless of the lubricant but then you're getting more drag from it
Wonder if it had something to do with what we just saw? The weight vs. the 1 watt savings because the chain is less bent back on itself? Couple that with the possible areo penalty for the larger wheel and cage, and yoyre going backwards in the total watts savings....?
Mostly those who claimed that they experienced benefits from OSPW, doesn't use Power Meter (they just based of feel?) I wouldn't not compromise my riding just installing these bad cheap upgrades, i do believe Shimano and Sram has their own Research and Development Team (why they don't consider adapting these Tech?). There is one time Shimano put OSPW on Altus Group set but they discontinued it for a reason.
Lol I think the benefit of an OSPW is so small it's within the tolerances for most power meters. The *total* drivetrain losses are usually about 3%, and the pulley wheels are such a tiny part of that
Honnêtement j’ai équipé mon vélo du boîtier de pédalier ceramicspeed et de la chape,on sent que c’est tout de même plus fluide,vraiment ! Tu ne gagneras pas une course avec ça mais c’est agréable,ça donne une impression de mécanique extrêmement précise c’est très doux .
After experimenting with Aliexpress OSPWs, I would say you might feel a slight benefit but is probably not worth the hassle. LBS don't like to fit them and sometimes the shifting performance is reduced (when using metal jockey wheels instead of plastic ones). FYI, I went from an Aliepress 13/17t OSPW (that put too much tension on my derailleur spring, so needed a new derailleur) to using 11t ceramic jockey wheels (shifting quality reduced), to high quality stainless steel jockey wheels (Nukeproof).
In a parallelogram the angle on the same side is 180°. So with an oswp the chain bent more after the upper wheel, so the articulation in summary must be the same.
I have a question, a 12 speed groupset is not cheap and just the rear mech alone is going to cost a little. So why aren't the original pully wheels actually really good. It does seem strange that you would spend a lot of money on a very expensive group set and a cheap up group would actually improve it. Or does the upgrade just make you think it's better, because you spent some money.
Exact same thoughts. Except for the TT days when you see Ceramic Speed, and not fly by night Amazon brands, the pro peloton runs the stock jockey wheels.
The original pulley wheels are actually really good. The spin test in this video is meaningless. And further, "really good" can be measured on multiple vectors. Shimano (and other component makers) are balancing weight, performance, and longevity. Aftermarket generally sacrifices at least one of those.
Agreed. Given the minimal cost involved Shimano would be using something similar if there was any real benefit. That's not to say that a fully engineered version at 30x the cost wouldn't benefit but that is a different comparison.
I tried to put on 10 sp variants of these, with no success. They did seem to fit, but somehow the chain didn't spin through the system very well. I didn't dwell on it and regreased and reinstalled the old ones, no matter how knackered they look.
I have the same aluminium ceramic pulley wheels but is 11t able to fit on my 12 speed pulley on stock cage without any issue. Maybe 13t is bigger and not able to fit on the stock cage.
LOL those anodized red pulley wheels would look right at home on my bike, with its red anodized bits on the handgrips and pedals, but seeing its a hybrid 8 speed with an altus derailleur I think I will just leave it alone.
Alejandro, did you stop and ask yourself why Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo do not offer OSPW’s? If they were of any value, wouldn’t the component manufacturers build them into their group sets?
With the large bottom pulley wheel the chain deflection angle at the top pulley increases thus negating the angle reduction from the lower! So marketing BS.?😅
Prefer this style of presentation, over regurgitation of unverified "independent" watt data aka Snake oil. Nice segment. Just cleaning the thing and the bearing is marginal gain.
Unnecessary, since this gives you almost 0 gains in terms of raw watts. The weight of these pulley wheels are super small so the the power you need to turn them is very miniscule.
Do English speakers realise that 'abbreviations' with a W are rarely shorter than the actual words? It' literally the same amount of syllables in this case.
As many of us can't afford Dura ace, it would be nice if gcn used an affordable component. I actually use 105, but having taken apart entry level equipment when repairing friends bikes, they may have bushes instead of bearings.
The idea that larger jockey wheels reduce articulation and therefore friction, does not make a huge amount sense because there will be a greater number of articulated links and the chain itself needs to be longer. Think about it 🤔, the difference must be tiny.
The big jockey wheels have no to minimal effect. The chain is not on any load when going over the jockey wheels. it is the bearing that can cause some load. The only benefit of larger jockey wheels is that they rotate slower and give less strain on the bearings.
