the cherry mx switches that basically everyone copied used to be oriented in the "south-facing led orientation" and they work the way they designed them originally with the cherry profile keycaps just fine (when putting cherry profile keycaps on north facing keyboard you are basically putting the keycaps the upside down) that said that was long before there were any LEDs in keyboards....not sure who started adding the LEDs on their PCB and the LED window in the switch, most likely it was not cherry as most likely they could have designed the switch the other way around and have the LED window on the other side personally with the way the mechanical switches are I think north facing keyboard is better if you want backlight keyboard, most keycaps are made for north and have the lettering near top....the front side lettering where south led works better is kinda stupid imo
Thank you so much, Romsicle! Your explanation on the differences between north and south switches was incredibly helpful and comprehensive. Your explanation was so easy to follow and understand. I am thrilled that I found your video, and couldn't be more grateful. Thank you again!
For people interested in switches that don't press in all the way, the term is "long-pole stem". If the switch listing doesn't call it out, look for a total travel distance shorter than 4.0mm. Say it has a 3.8mm travel distance, that's a long-pole stem. Not all switches are long-pole, but it's not a hard feature to find either.
I legitimately and genuinely appreciate the way you present your videos, the speed at which you talk, the way you speak to us; I subscribed big time. You are great at this. Thank you for the information!
Kailh box v2(and others) use switch housing that won't interfere with cherry keycaps. Personally, I think it's short-sighted to blame the orientation, because the "perfect" keyboard would have north-facing switches for the better RGB, and not interfere with cherry keycaps. You just end up trading one problem for another. If people had blamed the switch housings instead of the orientation, this would be a non-issue by now. And making south-facing keyboards just makes it less likely that it will be solved anytime soon.
if you're looking for a linear switch with a long pole stem, Tecsee Carrots are an option. No issues with keycap compatilbility when using them on boards with north facing sockets.
I've read so many comments of people looking for a good set of shine through caps for south facing LEDs. I'm also looking for some. If there are any keycap designers lurking here, there's a big demand for these, you'd make a killing!
Very instructive video. I was wanting to see what a keycap with top-lit, shine-through legends looked like with south facing LEDs, and I appreciate you showing that. I didn't think it'd make that much of a difference, but it sure did!
Doing my first build, and this one was a bit of a head scratcher for me based on other keyboard youtubers mentioning this (particularly north facing leds) I'm going to be using backlit pudding style keycaps, so a north facing keycap would work just fine by the looks of things. The font is at the top so it would be over the top of the led. I don't think I'll ever be using other keycaps on this build so that won't matter much here. Thanks for the explanation, now I know things!
It's not common but I can say from experience that the interference can happen even with south-facing switches. In my case, I tried to use an ePBT keycap set with Gateron Ink V2 switches. The home row keys (R3) were hitting the switch tops. GMK keycaps did not have this problem for me. And as said in the video, using a tactile switch with a longer pole also did not interfere anymore.
Amazing info! was going to grab IQUNIX cosmic traveler cause it was South facing. Changed my order today to the IQUNIX OG80 Wormhole cause I enjoy the design way more, Its north facing LED, but I will be Using Boba 4UT so I should be good! perfect cause I also wanted to put on pudding caps and the North facing will help it look nicer! This video answered all my questions, almost to a scary degree lmao xD.
When using windowed keycaps you can get into trouble with north facing leds, they need to be really bright at that point and the switch housing needs to be transparent. Gateron also changed their molds in 2021 to allow for north facing cherry compatibility.
I just received keychron k8 pro with south facing led. I can't clearly see the characters on hyper x pudding keycaps (which I bought to replace the non-shine through stock keycaps). I regret purchasing the keyboard already because I cannot use it in the dark despite having rgb lol. What is the use of bright rgb if you cant see characters? Isn't that the purpose of baclkight anyways.
You just saved me $215+ whatever some see through key caps would have cost me. I was about to buy the Keychron Q3 pro because its the only TKL keyboard with macro keys on left i can find, but with south LED it will suck because i always game in pitch black room. I'm a good typist but sometimes i need to look for rare key presses
all (but the non pro K series) boards where launched with southfacing LED by keychron. they keebstrapped me with the good an cheap K6 just so I can be dissapointed facing south for the first time with the V2. SF is indeed a massive disadvantage cause it's not like: "you can barely notice the difference" like some are trying to sell it but: "you can absolutely NOT read NF oriented keycap letters AT ALL in the dark" because SF turns the LED into a light pollution problem where you have a better chance changing your wallpaper to white and turn the LED off than using them on NF caps
A solution for all are complete transparent keycaps, finding is not easy, but makable. I have myself a Keychron Q6 iSO-DE Layout, so I have a double problem with keycaps (german and southfacing).
Wish i saw this video before buying the GMMK Pro, as they are south facing (i did not notice till had it in person) and none of GMMK keycaps allow for light up legends. Not sure why they dont offer proper south facing light up legends for their keyboard when all their others are north facing.
In my experience non gmk cherry profile keycaps don't have this issue. So GMK knock offs don't suffer from this issue. Generally north facing is better. (all my boards are north facing but I just ordered a south facing one). That said, cherry profile is the best profile out there. Most keyboards come with OEM or some custom keycap variety. But cherry is nice because it's basically the same shape as OEM only it's much lower profile. And while typing this is something you will really notice.It's a lot more comfortable to to type in my opinion. But regular OEM, esp if the keycap has thicker plastic, sounds a lot better than cherry switches.
Do you have any brand recommendations if I want to use C3 Tangerine switches and get Shine through key caps with a wireless keyboard? I'm having a hard time finding what brand to go with and now what won't have cherry profile key caps.
I appreciate this guide, as an interested party but new in the hobby I learned a lot. I have a somewhat unrelated question, are there any wooden cases for a NJ80 configuration? I know that an enthusiast named BarrettCreative makes wooden cases for the KL90 but those are beyond of what I'm willing to pay.
I mostly get what was said but I'm still a bit confused looking for my first keyboard. Should I just go with a north facing led pcb if I'm more worried about backlit keycaps? Because having backlit keys is huge for me especially in the dark and I'm not sure how well south leds would light them unless they were those side keycaps
I'd say you should try out a north facing keyboard first. Having backlit keycaps is a great experience - then you can try a south facing keyboard for more keycap flexibility.
how would south facing leds look like with clear/transparent housings? I am interested in the Akko Crystal Silver (not akko crystal) and idk how they look
OEM is probably the most common. I'd say 95% of all off-the shelf keyboards use OEM keycaps. Almost any keyboard with backlit keys will have OEM keycaps.
DO YOU have some pictures or a video of a north facing kb with boba u4t + cherry sideprint/ninja keycaps? im planning to build ut4 + side printed pbt cherry keycaps or is it okay to have a oem keycap with ut4?
Hi, and what if you ad some kind of O-ring to them? Could that fix the flaw?
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Hi Rom, do you have any recommendations for shine through backlit south facing keycaps, but not the ones that have the prints on the bottom side, but on the bottom of the top of the keys?
Can south facing design show the letter brightest when the letter in on top of the keycap? I care less for the backlit brightness and care more for letter brightness. Backlit ninja is really not appealing
Hi! Semi mech keeb newbie here, can you please explain why the keycaps get turned upside down for the interference example? Why wouldn't the sample be in the same orientation? Thanks!!
@@CommentingOnThis The main reason is to use the same keyboard as a reference point for sound (a different keyboard would sound different). There are also no keyboards that are available in both N/S switch configs. The only difference between N and S boards is the switch orientation. Clearly I can't just put in the switch north facing, so the keycap is flipped instead. It gives the same result as using a cherry keycap on a N face keyboard! Once you understand it, it's gonna be one of those things where you're like: DUH OBVIOUSLY haha Hopefully you understand now!
The switch has a notch for the LED, so depending on if the LED is north or south, the notch will be top or bottom. For demo purposes, he flipped just the keycap to put the notch at the top of the keycap.
Their keycaps are not entirely made in Cherry profile, it's still Cherry profile but the maker modified to be higher than a bit in order to prevent the interference.
As I see it, the way it should be is: northfacing boards equipped with full RGB southfacing boards for touch typists equipped with exactly 3 LED - that's it Cause the thing is: Full LED on south doesn't make ANY sense at all. It doesn't matter if you have side or southprinted legends, cerakeys, shine-through double printed whatever caps - cause I CAN'T SEE S?(// when all of the f)/in LED are BLENDING ME! as they manage to "utelize" the tiny space between the caps efficently targeting my eye. this is pure horror at night! (actually the best I've seen in 2023 next to "evil dead rise" so far). the whole market (especially keychron) is NUTS - they target and operate in complete disalignment to their customers' needs. sure touch typists are probably having the time of their life with this (actually.... do they? I mean if they're touch typists cause they're blind I guess they do) who in hell came up with that idea? they excelled (based on position) - at least now I know that light pollution is a real thing!
I'm just a bit more confused now, but thanks :) If Ducky offer Cherry's as standard, and offer a backlit keyboard, how can they achieve a good backlit through the key experience if their boards are South facing? Does this mean that Ducky must use North facing PCB's?
so south is the most prominent switch type and most versatile. yet no one is really making south-facing compatible shine through. ever since I got my GMMK keyboard (first foray into "custom" stuff) i've been so annoyed with the lack of keycaps. How is there such a disconnect in the this space when there's a handful of people doing this anyway.
I didn't realize the difference between the two until I got a numpad a few weeks ago and it has north facing LEDs. I wondered why my main keyboard was shining the LEDs directly into my eyes and it was because they were south facing. I think that the videos creators got stuck on the hype train for south facing because they look better in videos and they are too proud to admit they were wrong. I would rather have the north facing ones, especially for backlit keys, you can barely see the letters with the south facing.
switch type? I don't think so because every switch I've ever seen (and its been a few;) that had a brand (im)print on it oriented the print to be readable on northfacing installation.
@@russelllukenbill EXACTLY this! instead of lighting up the letter on the keycap where nothfacing has a marketshare of 90% or so the LED hits me directly in the god damn eyes so I can see EVEN LESS - what a D move.
Do you know any other ISO TKL keyboards with hotswappable keys except GMMK products? I've been writing with ISO keyboards for a quarter of a century now so I'm not switching layouts, but I'm trying to find good solution for a TKL setup.
@@Romsicle Thanks! That's interesting suggestion but I most definitely want standard cursor keys + home/end + page up/down button and F1-F12 placement. That's my definition of TKL keyboard but it seems that other people and vendors are calling other layouts "TKL" nowadays, too. Keychron Q3 QMK (with ISO layout, without knob) seems one possible option. This far my only option has been Glorious GMMK TKL ISO and I would want to find more options before going with any specific keyboard. However, according to Rtings testing the latency of GMMK keyboards is on the high side. I know I'm very sensitive to latency in mouse even for normal desktop use so I'm afraid that might be a deal breaker for keyboards, too. (I'm currently using G203 mouse for normal desktop use.)
Hi! Are there any differences in sound between southfacing pcb and northfacing pcb (using same switches, same keycap)? I have already read somewhere said that the northfacing pcb will result in the scratchier sound when you press than soundfacing pcb . I would love to hear your opinion about that. Thank you
Out of all the keyboards I've tested, I've never heard any difference in sound. A PCB doesn't having moving parts so scratchiness has nothing to do with orientation, but rather the switches.
North facing keebs are pain dude….it’s worth it to invest in a south facing pcb keyboard…not being able to choose cherry profile is just sad and narrows down you’re options by a lot The only thing nice about north facing is the RGB lol
