Can A Plane Fly Too High? (West Caribbean Airways Flight 708) - DISASTER BREAKDOWN 

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14:28 "Those who lived-" Oh someone lived! "- close by to the crash site arrived to discover a scene of total devastation with no survivors." Oh. Well, shit.

In remembrance to the victims: Captain Omar Alberto Ospina Marin, 40 First Officer David Muñoz Tavarez, 21 Technician Wilman Alejandro Estrada Technician Edgar Alberto Jerez Cortes Flight Attendant Wilson Giovanni Fallachi Chacón Flight Attendant Gustavo Adolfo Garcia Perez Flight Attendant Angela Patricia Peña Valencia, 20 Dispatcher Jhon Jairo Buendia Rodriguez Chantale Amant Bernard Antiste Clara Antiste Claude Armede Noa Bahlit Christiane Bapte Mireille Bapte Sylvain Bapte Thomas Bapte Lucien Baray Minette Baray Marie-Josee Belay George Berisson Paul Berisson Hector Bermont Francis Berton Marie-Pierrette Berton Liliane Boura Marie-Andree Bourton Ghislaine Burnet Verin Marie Pierre Cabare Catherine Marie Cabrera José Cabrera Mailys Catorc Eugène Chassol Georgette Chassol Esther Colonnette Alex Coloras Monique Coloras Eliane Cossou Luc Bernard Cossou Raphaëlle Couffe Robert Couffe Danielle Croisy Victor Croisy Guy Delahaye Alex Desir Raymond Dijon Matrice Druze Marie-Jospehe Duranville Eugenie Ensfelder Jeannine Esther Emilie Etifier Evelyne Eudaric Therese Fabien Carmen Felicite Raoul Felicite Christian Filin Myrlene Florine Joseph Galbert Marie-Eugenie Galbert Andre Germany Delphin Germany Nelly Germany Rosemonde Germany Gisele Hierso Vernier Hierso Mirette Fanny Hierso Maurice Hierso Alex Hospice Liliane Hospice Max Iphaine Antoinette Jabert Kelly Jacqui Patrick Jacqui Carmille Jacqui Velaine Jean Francis George Jeremie Jhoanne Joachim Marie Elizabeth Joachim Jimmy Joachim-Arnaud Marie J. Joseph-Boniface Lucien Kelban Mauricette Kelban Arsene Kimper Clement Lacrampe Yolaine Lager Renée Lagier Freddy Lanoir Germany Laurent Yohan Laurent Christian Legendart Severine Lenogue Celine Luce Lucienne Luce Raphaël Magloire Benedicte Mainge Hubert Mainge Jocelyne Mainge Max Mainge Viviane Mainge Elodie Maquiaba Laure Marie Antoinette Berlin Marie Luce Marcel Marie Luce Maëva Massal Max Massal Murielle Massal Nicolas Massal Angelo Mauconduit Lisette Mauconduit Christian Montlouis Felicite Marie Odile Montlouis Felicite Mireille Moutai Serge Nal Gabriel Nancy Huguette Nancy Andrè Noleo Claudine Paquet Sylviane Pavilla Lydie Pelage Henry Pepinter Rose Pepinter Alix Peters Marie-Claude Peters Abdon Joseph Pierre-Louis Laurence Pierre-Louis Evelyne Porro Erick Rainette Maguy Rainette Denis-Marc Ramin Marie-Louise Ramin Gerty Raphose-Gombe Therese Raphose Valere Urbain Raphose Juanita Regis Hugutte Robin-Galbert Berthe Roch Jean Michel Rosamon Jocelyne Saffache Luce Sainte-Rose Marcel Saxemard David Scaglioni Georgette Sebastien Ginette Seraline Gislaine Surin Marie-Annick Taupin Anthony Toulon Gabrielle Toulon Aimee Valence Andre Valquin Viviane Velayoudon Sohan Venkatapen Michel Venkatapen Nadine Venkatapen Anicet Victorin Raymonde Vigilant Lucien Violton Marie-Louise Voisin Christiane Voyer Felix Voyer Karine Zongo

This one had a slightly more complex explanation than normal I really enjoyed the deeper look into the physics and how they interact with the engines

WCA was also delaying the salary to the staffs, and Captain Ospina even had to work a bar and was coming off a shift before boarding this plane.

There is an escape manoeuvre that can be flown from a super stall which involves banking the aircraft 90º to re-establish airflow over the tail. It does require pilots to recognise the situation quickly and immediately initiate the recovery procedure. It is unlikely to be successfully accomplished without the loss of 15,000 feet in altitude. Hence the need for swift reaction to the problem.

I remember watching the Air Crash Investigation episode about this years ago. Absolutely terrifying situation. Thank you for the video!

Out of curiosity but will you one day consider Architectural disasters if you can

It should be noted that tunnel vision probably contributed to the lack of response from the captain. Between the stickshaker, red “STALL” light on the panel, the CAWS supplemental stall recognition system sounding klaxons and calling out, “STALL sᴛᴀʟʟ”, and even the copilot saying, “Es el stall, Capi,” (“It’s the stall, Captain,”)…hard to imagine that the captain would have ignored that. If he was hyper-focused on the abnormal engine values like EPR, however, everything else was probably diminished. And as you mentioned, once the AoA got into an extreme angle and the plane entered a deep stall, recovery was virtually impossible.

I can tell how much I've learned from your channel, because as soon as you mentioned the "cavity of air," I guessed right away that the T-tail design played a part. This reminds me of something I learned during a track driving event I participated in. The instructors taught us how to draft during high speed runs on the oval, and while it's great for building speed to pass, we were reminded to monitor our engine temps closely since airflow to the radiators is essentially blocked. As always, excellent work. Keep it up! - Aldairion

This crash happened two days after the crash of Helios airways flight 522

Forget if it's this or the SOL flight, but one of the two was so crowded it had passengers in the jump seat in the cockpit. That always stuck out to me as one of those weird facts, such as how crowded is a flight when that is how passengers are booked into the jump seat...

T-tail aircraft can enter something called a "Super Stall", a type of stall it can't recover from. I read some t-tail planes have a parachute mechanism in the back to lower the nose, but it's not in most of those types of planes. Don't understand why.

Actually, West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 is the second deadliest accident involving the MD-80 family. It is however to be more specific, the deadliest accident involving the MD-82.

Pulkovo flight 612 involving a Tupolev 154 crashed in this same way. It is scary to think how dangerous it is when a T-tail plane stalls because you need airflow over the horizontal stabilizers to pitch your nose down and recover from the stall. Also I feel like manufacturers should make the pylons of engines able to change pitch instead of welding them to the fuselage. This would help in recovering from stall situations where the engines are angled upward.

11:17 Having such additional debriefs as these and not just letting is be a podcast based on final reports.. is what makes Disaster Breakdown special, better and different. . Thank you for the detailed yet crisp explanation.

Excellent work Chloe! The old T-tail deep stall. Very nice analysis of a subtle situation.

High altitude stall caused by the crew's mismanagement of aircraft systems and their lack of knowledge regarding it's impact on performance, leading to an unrecoverable aerodynamic upset. It's eerie common these days. AF447, Air Sweden CRJ, Sol SAAB340, Austral DC9 in Uruguay... This is gonna sound like an old man yelling at cloud, but I'm 22 and my interest in aviation spans half that and to be honest, pilots of the yesterday were more professional. I'll take a 2,000 hr guy who progressed from Dakotas to 727 over a glorified passenger who rode over 10,000 in 737NG and most of the time was busy with solving logistical and paperwork issues instead of flying, and wondering whether the lowcost employer will fire him next month without notice Today's pilots are only expected to follow checklists, fill out paperwork, flip switches and make sure they spare every last droplet of fuel for the company. We need back the times where pilot knew every quirk and trait of his airframe, and had a knowledge how its engines, electrics, avionics, flight controls etc work, instead of simple buttonology. Stick and rudder airmanship is trated as a necessary evil to be passed during training and forgotten, as are aerodynamics, performance limitations etc. For most people it's just a corporate job, and they don't care shit and don't take pride and responsibility those three or four strips deserve. They should be earned with hard work and presented only to the pinnacle of aviators, as there's no such thing as an average pilot - you're either confident in your skills and do everything at 100%, and give 100% from yourself at all times, or you're a threat who shouldn't be flying. The pilots are just another megacorp yuppies, and are treated as such by the megacorp airlines, who don't give shit about ethos, fire and hire people as they please, delivery pressure on pilots in regards to punctuality or fuel, and demand the rules to be violated The days when pilots were taught extensive technical details on their aircraft and what did what and how, and the days when it was obvious that in the end, it's down to stick and rudder, everything else is but an addition, need to come back. The days when airline pilots were an elite need to come back. The days when they had powerful unions, strong position in their company and strong ethos, need to come back. We need 1950s aviation back (but with modern safety standards if possible)

Being “young” doesn’t mean that he isn’t experienced. Be careful associating age with ability to fly. My buddy graduated at 18 from high school and was in flight school the next day. He now has over 20 years in and has killed it. Some are born to fly

A question to those more knowledgeable than myself: Why is the T-tail design used at all, if it puts you at risk of a (virtually unrecoverable) deep stall?

i did fly with West Caribbean. We travelled to San Andrés for my sister's 10th birthday. Same year the accidents happened and therefore the airline ceased to exist. We wen't out there in January, I wonder what the real state of the MD-80s we flew on was, since they were grounded after the L410 accident in march...

This type of accident occured first time during a test flight of the BAC-1-11.

About your comment on the deadliest accident involving the MD-80, it is incorrect, as Inex Adria flight 1308 killed more people. This was still when the plane was called the DC-9-81, but it is still seen as an MD81 aircraft

It amazes me that aviation operates aircraft so close to the edge of performance. I understand the financial impact of not flying as efficiently as possible but it is quite disconcerting.

It's amazing how poor the communication between the pilots was.

Very odd. I'm sure the failing airline had optimum insurance on the plane that crashed.

Legitimately my favorite way to start a Saturday morning. You do such a great job and humanize the victims while staying succinct. Anytime you want to expand your videos, we will watch!

I get the chills any time ice is mentioned in one of these videos because you know that things are going to go badly with the plane responding in a way that’s unexpected even though there is absolutely nothing actually wrong. Pun unintended.

Reminds me of the Mentour Pilot video with the yolo frat boys who treated a Bombardier CRJ200 (also a rear engine jet) like they were driving their friends new Dodge Charger he got at a brilliant deal of 25% APR! All because they wanted to join the sick ass 41k club!!!

If only the FO had the modern 1500 hours of flight experience instead of 1300, this accident would have never happened!!

A really interesting video. Thank you. Many factors at play here. Can’t help but wonder if the outcome may have been different if the captain had left the autopilot engaged when the speed started reducing. Recognising it and selecting a decent using the autopilot may have prevented this accident. Priority should always be given to protecting airspeed at high altitude. It’s so common for pilots to disconnect the autopilot when things start to go wrong. This often serves to increase workload at the worst possible moment. Interestingly, modern training really emphasises leaving the autopilot engaged whenever you can. Windshear and overspeed are classic examples of where the autopilot will serve you well.

This may be a radical suggestion, but what if the pilots decided to roll the plane upside down to give the engines and the horizontal stabilizer the needed airflow while they had spare altitude to maneuver? Just a thought I had while watching

So did this plane reach Coffin Corner!? I don’t know much about this, except that it occurs when planes get too far behind the drag curve (I think!). I really enjoyed it, for some reason Coffin Corner fascinates me. I would also be interested in architectural fails leading to disaster. In fact these videos are so good, if you made one about watching paint dry I’d be interested in watching it!

You would think if the Capt. thought if the engines had failed, He would look at the gauges to see if this was true.

You have to visualize the plane "scooping up" air. You can't just completely rely on the instrumentation. Computers will never fly humans.

West Caribbean 708 isn’t the deadliest incident involving a MD-80 series, Inex-Adria 1308 is

Any chance you can do Saudia 163?

Certain similarities with Air France flight 447

Why would panama as a country buy a package holiday?

how do you mistake your plane plumetting out of the sky at 12000 fpm as an engine failure?? I understand how the leans or a gentle descent can lead a pilot to grossly misjudge their situation but this just seems beyond comprehension. Ive never experienced a stall that had a plane completely falling out of the sky, nor have I felt an engine failure but I cannot imagine they feel even remotely similar.

Deep stall must be a horrific situation. May moving all passengers to the front have helped? 🤔

The fact that the wing can disrupt air flow to the engine and the rear tail seems like such a design flaw to me 🤔

Are T-Tailed aircraft still in commercial use? The fact that a deep stall is essentially an instant death sentence seems like a fairly major design flaw to me.

I can't imagine falling from the sky in the dark 😳

Plenty of training for stalls in the flight schools, yet this still happened

Is it even possible to recover from a deep stall, and if so, how?

what would be the effect if the passengers had all been moved to the front of the plane? would that be enough to get the nose down and regain airflow?

Great video! I'm always looking forward to Saturdays because of your content. So you've done aviation and rail disasters. Would you be open to doing maritime disasters as well one day. I get the feeling that this sounds like I'm getting bored with aviation content but that's not the case. I just think it would be interesting to expand into this topic as well.

Great reporting and storytelling again: Just a slight correction: The deadliest MD-80 crash was the crash of the six-month-old YU-ANA of Inex Adria Airways at the French island of Corsica in 1981 in which all 180 on board perished. Maybe it's worth another Breakdown...

Nice video about this crash

And how do you recover from that stall situation?

Great video as always.❤

You could argue that there are other things that fly too high that come from Medallin.

Hey Disaster Breakdown, do you have the livery link for the West Carribean airlines livery? If so, can you send a link to me?

I never flew the MD 80 however in the 737 we were trained to not use vertical speed mode in an autopilot autothrottles high altitude climb because of possible airspeed deterioration. I t,honk the low experience level of these pilots was also a factor in this accident.

It was a disaster before even leaving the ground.. those poor people had no idea about any of this. Ugh, so sad.

I'm serious. And don't call me Shirley.

beautiful and detailed content, on top of that i love Australian accent, which sounds like a bonus to the package. it would be nice to provide a section in the video to discuss recovery methods if any, even speculation could be helpful because it might be picked up by professional pilots and corrected in the comments if need be. like what could have the crew done during that one minute descent to earth to recover from combined stall which seemed both like an aerodynamic stall and a turbulence in engine compressor inlet?

The captain played a big role in this happening

Casi todas las víctimas son de la isla de Martinica, conmoción emocional y duelo nacional, el juicio no ha terminado. Chávez viajó junto al presidente francés Jacques Chirac a la isla en una ceremonia de homenaje que reunió a una décima parte de la isla. On ne vous oublie pas Captain Omar Alberto Ospina Marin, 40 First Officer David Muñoz Tavarez, 21 Technician Wilman Alejandro Estrada Technician Edgar Alberto Jerez Cortes Flight Attendant Wilson Giovanni Fallachi Chacón Flight Attendant Gustavo Adolfo Garcia Perez Flight Attendant Angela Patricia Peña Valencia, 20 Dispatcher Jhon Jairo Buendia Rodriguez Chantale Amant Bernard Antiste Clara Antiste Claude Armede Noa Bahlit Christiane Bapte Mireille Bapte Sylvain Bapte Thomas Bapte Lucien Baray Minette Baray Marie-Josee Belay George Berisson Paul Berisson Hector Bermont Francis Berton Marie-Pierrette Berton Liliane Boura Marie-Andree Bourton Ghislaine Burnet Verin Marie Pierre Cabare Catherine Marie Cabrera José Cabrera Mailys Catorc Eugène Chassol Georgette Chassol Esther Colonnette Alex Coloras Monique Coloras Eliane Cossou Luc Bernard Cossou Raphaëlle Couffe Robert Couffe Danielle Croisy Victor Croisy Guy Delahaye Alex Desir Raymond Dijon Matrice Druze Marie-Jospehe Duranville Eugenie Ensfelder Jeannine Esther Emilie Etifier Evelyne Eudaric Therese Fabien Carmen Felicite Raoul Felicite Christian Filin Myrlene Florine Joseph Galbert Marie-Eugenie Galbert Andre Germany Delphin Germany Nelly Germany Rosemonde Germany Gisele Hierso Vernier Hierso Mirette Fanny Hierso Maurice Hierso Alex Hospice Liliane Hospice Max Iphaine Antoinette Jabert Kelly Jacqui Patrick Jacqui Carmille Jacqui Velaine Jean Francis George Jeremie Jhoanne Joachim Marie Elizabeth Joachim Jimmy Joachim-Arnaud Marie J. Joseph-Boniface Lucien Kelban Mauricette Kelban Arsene Kimper Clement Lacrampe Yolaine Lager Renée Lagier Freddy Lanoir Germany Laurent Yohan Laurent Christian Legendart Severine Lenogue Celine Luce Lucienne Luce Raphaël Magloire Benedicte Mainge Hubert Mainge Jocelyne Mainge Max Mainge Viviane Mainge Elodie Maquiaba Laure Marie Antoinette Berlin Marie Luce Marcel Marie Luce Maëva Massal Max Massal Murielle Massal Nicolas Massal Angelo Mauconduit Lisette Mauconduit Christian Montlouis Felicite Marie Odile Montlouis Felicite Mireille Moutai Serge Nal Gabriel Nancy Huguette Nancy Andrè Noleo Claudine Paquet Sylviane Pavilla Lydie Pelage Henry Pepinter Rose Pepinter Alix Peters Marie-Claude Peters Abdon Joseph Pierre-Louis Laurence Pierre-Louis Evelyne Porro Erick Rainette Maguy Rainette Denis-Marc Ramin Marie-Louise Ramin Gerty Raphose-Gombe Therese Raphose Valere Urbain Raphose Juanita Regis Hugutte Robin-Galbert Berthe Roch Jean Michel Rosamon Jocelyne Saffache Luce Sainte-Rose Marcel Saxemard David Scaglioni Georgette Sebastien Ginette Seraline Gislaine Surin Marie-Annick Taupin Anthony Toulon Gabrielle Toulon Aimee Valence Andre Valquin Viviane Velayoudon Sohan Venkatapen Michel Venkatapen Nadine Venkatapen Anicet Victorin Raymonde Vigilant Lucien Violton Marie-Louise Voisin Christiane Voyer Felix Voyer Karine Zongo

it seems to me, this Captain had no business flying this MD-80 aircraft. I should know, I am a retired MD-80 Captain.

Interesting point- did you know when the wing spoilers are raised on landing it is not primarily for the drag effect it is more to break the air flow over the topside of the wing which then pushes the plane hard into the runway to improve braking

At high altitudes, airliners are in a narrow band between stalling (the air is so thin) and parts of the plane going supersonic. (The early U2s had a 12mph band!!) In this case, the plane STABLE STALLED, the bad air from the wings BLANKING the elevator, so stick useless. Is a problem with T tails. You must NEVER stall them. Airspeed! The trouble is the stall speed is so high at large altitudes and the Indicated air speed means dick all. Read the manual....lower nose (BEFORE stall); put "little bird" just above horizon on ADI; FULL power. Go to lower altitudes. CAVU skies!

2:00 terrain a big putty knife

"Those who lived..." *long pause* (me thinking no way anybody survived that) "...closest to the crash site....no survivors."

I'm really astonished by how many planes crashed in this kind of fashion...

Another absolutely fabulous video. Thank you so much for the time you put into these. It certainly shows in the final product. I’m so happy to have found your channel! Cheers! ✈️🤙🏻

Never get me on 'ANY' rear engine powered jet, ever!

Are you serious!!?….captain 1100 hours is very experienced!!…..no no no…..with an apprentice in the right seat!!?….get real!

Cool

The horizontal stabs are to small too and doesn't have sufficient authority during landing/flare. A trade off from the fuel saving by the small hor stabs. It is from MD that Boeing learned to overstretch designs?

Honestly confusing the clear extreme downward vertical speed with engine failure when the nose is pointed at the horizon is uh.... questionable

Not understanding the Auto Pilot Modes and their limitations caused many accidents/incidents. Airbus has a couple mode speed/ climbrate. Open Speed mode trades of climbrate and open climbrate mode trades off speed. A to low indicated airspeed set in the open speed mode has the danger of flying into the left edge of the coffin.

The funny looking n character is pronounced like “ny”. So his name is pronounced like moon-YOSS

Total incompetence by the pilot. The young first officer knew what was going on and the pilot failed to listen to him. Total tragedy :(

Along with the aerodynamic properties of the T-Tail design, it to me like the design would also result in more weight towards the rear of the plane than if the engines were on the wings, thus causing rear to sag and the nose to pitch up even more in extreme situations. Am I understanding that correctly?

Why is it always the co-pilot, and not the pilot, who recognize a stall?

Where do these airlines that suffer worldwide crashes get these pilots It’s disgusting that they allowed to fly passengers

Thank you so much for your videos! They take me away from the gruesome crime stories. Of course the outcomes of these are gruesome too, not to dismiss that end.

Was there no way to push the nose into a dive to regain airflow over the wings??

Don't think I've seen 🤔 this before

YAY I'm early

On the Mentour Pilot channel, a similar crash happened in the same circumstances. The plane had flown above its maximum altitude. I cannot remember the exact details, but there were no passengers on board at least (thankfully).

I wouldn't blame the pilot as his desicion to work before the flight wasn't voluntary. I remember working at 3 jobs to make ends meet in Russia in 1990-s and I wasn't a cleaner or laborer. I was a highly skilled engineer but salaries were extremely low so I had no choice. That time I had constant headaches, lack of sleep and chronic fatigue. Now imagine that pilot in a similar situation. I am not surprised that they crashed the plane. Working class people in countries with peripheral capitalism are pushed to the limits all the time.

Why the distracting background music?

Delay reason: airline cant pay the fuel. That was a new one to me

6th like 15th wiewer

All pilots are taught that you can stall an airplane at any speed but only ONE angle of Attack. We have AOA's in all military aircraft here in the U.S.. Why these have not been installed in commercial aircraft is most certainly a cost issue is the reason. These two pilots should have pushed the nose over long before they stalled. The Captain most certainly should not have been trimming nose up. Why the F.O. did not take control of the airplane, we will never know.

"stopped their operations just one month after the disaster.." well duh.. that was their only air worthy plane with no funds to even a fuel and this disaster draining what was left.

Amazing how little knowledge of aerodynamics these pilots seemed to have. Were they distracted by the food being served so they lost track of the speed? Vertical speed limb at high altitude looks like a very dangerous choice. I saw another investigation where pilots wanted to join the 41 club which turned out bad.

A super-stall is the scariest thing.

This is how Not to fly a Jet Airliner with the T' design and the rear engine mount local, isn't for inexperienced pilots; obviously. RIP.

Question to all Pilots and Airplane Nerds out there: Loosing engine power and Elevator controll in a stalling scenario sound scary as fuck and pretty deadly. But what would have been the textbook solution to this? Using their Ailerons, to roll the aircraft to get airflow to the Elevators? ... or what??

My favorite part about this video? No computerized voice. Good job.

Why doesn't the computer not just block any input from pilots in these cases and solve the problem in seconds????

These seems to be a recurring cause of accidents, AF447 and the Indonesian crash with 12.000 feet decent to mention two.

14:40 as a matter of fact, inex-adria flight 1308 is the deadliest md-80 family accident, not flight 708

There’s much less information but it would be great to analyze the thousands of general aviation accidents that occur yearly.

What the (!) is a 21 year old doing inside a cockpit? No thanks, I will walk those miles.

It amazes me that aircraft manufacturers are not responsible for training pilot's in all aspects of the plane. Time and time again planes crash because carriers fail to train pilots properly.