Can Brick-and-Mortar Guitar Shops Survive the Online Era? 

REI has pro days for their employees where the brands come in and educate the staff and answer questions about their gear. They also sell employees their merch at reduced prices so they can talk to customers about their personal experience with the merch and how it performs. It is a masterclass in how to run a retail store.

There is a positive side to kidney stones. It means you will be to the doctor more often which means they are more likely to catch any more serious problems too. Like my dad last year went in to the doctor for his kidney stones. They did a scan and found a cancer so tiny that it likely would have been 5-10 years before he ever had any symptoms. They caught it so early that the kidney stone procedure had a harder recovery than the cancer treatment

The REI analogy is a good one. REI is a destination store. Guitar Center needs to become a destination.

I love my local brick and mortar. I’m not really buying any new guitars, but it’s like the Cheers theme, “you want want to go where everyone knows your name”

The problem with my local GC is that the good stuff that walks in gets siphoned and shipped off to the high turnover stores. I’ve never seen a vintage guitar in my local, because they box ‘em up and send to Nashville or wherever. So you’re left with a wall with 18 weird cheap model SGs and a couple Les Paul GC Classics…

Observations here are spot-on. I used to work at a brick and mortar mom-and-pop music shop in a small college town in the mid 90's. Guitar manufacturers regularly sent reps with samples of products (guitars, effects, amps, etc.) to get our small staff hyped and educated on their product line. (Obviously they wanted us to place orders too.) As the internet and big box stores became more common the reps stopped visiting altogether. Those visits from reps were really important to educating staff: What makes one Fender strat different from the other 10 we have hanging on the wall, etc. And when it come to effects, if you haven't heard it or played with the settings, it's difficult to sell it.

My local GC has a very nice used guitar selection - makes it worth stopping in whenever I'm in the neighborhood. It seems to turn over fairly well too - always something new there.

100% on Guitar Center. Every guitar i want to play is locked from 2nd row up. And there appears to be no one who wants help unlock them. Pretty much the only way to buy a $1000+ guitar from them is to order online or spend hours in the store waiting on help. Sometimes i can't buy unlocked stuff because theres no one at the cash register.

Yea, Idk where Rhett's going with the house brand thing. GC has tried it a bunch of times and it never really works out. Could be like your saying, they usually go for the entry level stuff. They had those raven ss amps, and Laguna Guitars with a pretty slick greg howe se that they marketed hard for years. They have house brand pedals right now under the brand "gamma".

1. I think these big box stores need to go to the Gibson Garage model. Trained employees, headphones to test guitars, you can play whatever guitar you want just have to ask, and they don’t get annoyed or inconvenienced when you do ask. Knowledgeable employees, like you all said. 2. I wish places like guitar center would teach people who are selling not to just guess. If they don’t know the answer to a question, go find it, I can wait I’ll be fine. I don’t want your best guess.

Best Guitar Shop in Australia (my opinion) Black Dot Music in Armidale NSW. Stacks and stacks of Fender and Gibson custom shop (including Murphy Lab) and Gretsch Player Series guitars on display and readily playable. Two-Rock and hand-wired Fender Amps to play through. Bliss!! I'm lucky I live in Armidale but I would happliy drive 6 hours from Sydney or Brisbane to experience the pleasure of playing through high-end gear. Ask for Tony or Steve. Great shop, great guys.

I was very fortunate and blessed to be on the team with Andy, Drew and co. throughout the development and release of Powers Electric. To say they are a refreshing feat of engineering and ingenuity within the guitar community is a vast understatement! What do you think about the case?

The best example of a European brick and mortar store that has carved out their place is The Fellowship of Acoustics in the Netherlands. It’s a beautiful store in a mansion, amazing unique inventory and a great online presence. Those places offering a special experience will always do well.

Sounds like Guitar Centre needs to look at Andertons in the UK. What you described Guitar Centre needed to do is Andertons to a tee and they seem to be doing very well.

There's a thing about any sort of niche shop, whether you sell comic books, spelunking gear, computer components, crafting supplies or musical instruments, you are a 3rd Place. (If you don't know the concept of 3rd Places, you're on the internet look it up). So for these businesses they *have* to remember you're a vibe first and a business second. Nobody (especially in North America) walks into a store for something they can buy online. Stores are for the vibe, the hang, the exchange of knowledge; and the experience that is what a retail store is. And franchise/big box businesses forgot that for shareholders instant greedification & they reap what they sow. And if you've salted the earth you ain't growing shit. ....and if your logo as as lame as Guitar Center's it's gonna be a real struggle to establish a vibe again.

My local GC is like walking into a Dollar General

I had a similar experience at 39. Bad kidney stone. Finally passed it. Started drinking lots of water and never had a bad one again. I still have multiple stones in my kidneys, but the occasional small stone will still break free and move through. My doctor has me take a Flomax to help pass stones when they try to move through. In 35 years, I've never had to take anything for pain other than over the counter ibuprofen and tylenol

I’m not 100% if it was in Rick Beato’s interview, but i’m pretty sure Larry is on record saying that Kid Charlemagne was a Tweed Deluxe and his 335.

I started playing electric guitar last year. I happened to move walking distance from a GC around the same time. The guys at my GC are really nice but, like you guys were saying, the knowledge is lacking. Something about their return policy coupled with their physical stores is so clutch. I like returning things to a physical store and getting it approved right away. I know it’s minor but there is something about having no fear about trying something out and returning it to a person. GC is also VERY underrated when it comes to their used gear. The prices are very competitive and coupled with their return policy, is awesome. I genuinely hope they can change with the times and make it past this current moment. But yes, their service has to improve.

We buy brands not products. Products are commodities. Good brands build relationships and trust with their customers. We shop at retail stores for the experience in the space and the knowledge of the staff. We can buy the commodities anywhere. REI is a great example of providing a great experience and a knowledgeable staff done at scale. I agree with those suggesting a more Gibson Garage vibe would help GC, but GC has proven they are poor at training staff. The real opportunity is for the mom and pops to step up their game. They have the knowledge, experience and can create a great vibe with little cost or effort by just being welcoming and providing quality customer service.

Have you been to the Hollywood GC? That’s the “mothership” and probably where the CEO is coming from in terms of high-end guitars. They have all the beginner and intermediate guitar offerings too.

Some things I’ve noticed about my two local GCs lately… 1. The employees are older, knowledgeable, helpful people. They seem to know what’s going on and want to talk about guitars with someone. That’s an A+ in my book. 2. Every time I go in there for emergency string replacements, I walk out with some cool guitar I found on the wall. But they’re usually used and accessible. I think I’ve only ever played high-end guitars there on 3 occasions because they are so hard to get to. And for good reason. The place is crawling with kids either playing Metallica or struggling in the acoustic room to strum a single chord. And I’m stoked that’s happening because kids are playing guitar!!! But there’s always two sides to something like that. I want to play the American Vintage II Tele without having it unlocked from a glass case. But it needs to be safe from children. 😂 EDIT: I love REI! But I’m poor and don’t get to go outside. The Seattle store is AMAZING

Had consistently good experiences at a couple of Guitar Centers. One in particular always wants me to ask to see the $11,000 PRS just so they can get it down and listen to it too. The other one did a full setup on a beat up Les Paul Studio just so I could play it. Each GC seems to have a little different culture.

John Suhr says that, a part from woods, what really makes a maple neck snappier is the finish, while a rosewood neck has an open finish wood. I'd love you to have John Suhr on the podcast. His son Kevin is great too and responsible for some amazing products like the Discovery delay or the IR loader

I feel for you Rhett! I ended up in the ER with a stone last October and three surguries later, I am still dealing with them; although much more controlled now. The funny thing is, I live in AZ, so I drink a ton of water. Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't always pay off.

That attrition comment from Rhett is realer than people realize, GC and brick and mortar shops were announcing record sales during said pandemic, which was 4 years ago, which means right about now ish is the time there should be an absolute flood of these people starting to gig and you’re not seeing that at all, there hasn’t even been like a 5% uptick in more acts trying to gig locally. So they literally all gave up

Something tells me GC should lean into their ability to accept trades toward new items. They need to revamp the used web presence but their great return policies could make them a lot of money churning used gear. Sweetwater doesn’t offer the trade for discount option.

Andertons does this house brand thing to perfection, the did get some heat for not disclosing that fact when pushing Victory amps but over it has worked great for them. Back in the late 90's the GC in Hollywood was Mecca. It was THE place to go see the best and the most. Even that place has fallen off. I used to live in Thousand Oaks CA and we had a place called Instrumental Music. They had a great inventory and were competitively priced to our local GC. Mom and Pops can be competitive against the big box stores, Instrumental did this with both pricing and expertise. I live in Berlin Germany now and Thomanns (the Sweetwater of Europe) is killing out local shops. We lost the GC of Berlin because they couldn't compete with Thomanns.

Part of the problem with regards to REI is that they have radically different ownership structures. REI is member owned and much more democratic in regards to business and management decisions. GC is still more beholden to turning profits so is less likely to invest much needed capital. I am making many assumptions here, so could be talking out of my ass.

I’m so glad I have an OCD habit of carrying a bottle of water no matter what or where I’m going. I’m sorry you had to go through that, Rhett. That sucks!!

Rhett has big water dodger energy.

How much capital would it take for them to create a new higher priced brand? Not a bad idea, but I am not sure they have the capital to do it, or if they would be willing to roll the dice if they did. It would take a long time to overcome "oh, it's from Guitar Center. Ho hum" type of attitude. Pretty sure that REIs house brand came out from day one as a pretty good product. I also understand that REI's sales are down too. I wonder if they will be able to keep their stores open. My guess is if Guitar Center can survive they will have to shrink back to the stronger stores - Atlanta, Nashville, etc.

Carlton used an origial blackface Princeton that was MODIFIED by Rivera, not the Rivera designed Princeton II. I had a Rivera R-55 combo for a few years and it was a great amp, just too heavy.

Great points and podcast. I agree that GC’s new leadership to remake the brand. Look at what Ceasar has done for Gibson. The swagger for Gibson (and quality) is back

I mean Thomann has various house brands, all focused on being at the lowest end of the price spectrum, yet they constantly outperform every brand in their price range and some of the slightly more expensive stuff

Funny enough I was getting Sweetwater ads on RU-vid the whole time I was watching this video! I don't know that we understand how bad Guitar Center finances are. I was at two Atlanta GC's this last weekend. Their selection was decent, but the service and support non-existent. They have cut so much I think they are much farther gone than we all know.

The local independent mom and pops stores will survive if they focus on service. The big box stores are doomed because the competition is not the moms and pops stores - it’s the cheap guitars being sold on Amazon and eBay.

Not trying to be aggressive, but from a business stand point, your asking GC to spend money on more employees, renovation of all stores, management consultation, and a new manufacturing enterprise of all instruments. And all of this money on the gamble that brick and mortar isn't dead. I just don't think its feasible. It is a business that is dying, I don't think they can afford to do a ground up rebuild.

Good observations on GC, but I think the elephant in the room is GC corporate ownership and culture. I think they’ve been in the debt absorbing/shuffling around/perceived value business first, then somewhere down the line maybe they are some kind of store. Their stock rating has been terrible for years. It would shock me if someone actually wanted to make it a viable business, although I could see someone trying to create the perception of a viable business to prep it for the next corporate move

I don't think Guitar Center needs their own brand of gear. The last thing we need as customers is yet another brand of gear. First thing they need is to focus on employee training in the products they stock as well as basic customer service. They need to keep their stores clean and in order. Many look like beat-up old pawn shops and the employees don't know anything. The guitars are in crap condition. The Guitar Centers in Southern California were great with great employees that knew their stuff and hustled to help you but that was back in the 1990s-2000s. The last 15 years or so they've become Walmart.

I think for new guitars absolutely it’s new/ intermediate guitars. But man I know a lot of guys with experience that love to check out GC used stuff. I think that needs to be where guitar center spends some time is the used market for the higher end stuff. Most guys that play and collect don’t like taking the new to used depreciation, used to used though all day people are always tone chasing. If they worked deals on trading stuff in a little more favorably they would turn a lot of used stuff

Look at that. The Guitar Center Gamma budget line has arrived.

If guitar Center did do a house brand like they’re saying they should partner with a name in the boutique building line and really have an emphasis on street cred and quality and playability. I’m thinking something like Revolta or Sterners international line. I know those are two ends of the spectrum in terms of the name behind them, but just some thing that is a story about why this house brand is actually better more authentic, higher quality and more cost-effective than, anything from the big three at the same price points. If you need a product manager, let me know I’m here. 38:24

the biggest contributing factor for sounding good is the items msrp and brand prestige to these two

Does that Powers have the PF pickups or the FF ones?

In NYC, Everytime I have gone to Guitar Center to buy a guitar and have come out of there empty handed. They are indifferent to making sales. I don’t think they adjust their guitars for season changes either. They lock their guitars and you can’t find anyone with the keys to the locks. Really? ok bye! 😂

Zach, please put a baseplate on that strat bridge pickup

Anderton's has it dialed in. The store itself and their online presence is above board.

Im a bricklayer and guitarplayer,..... this is very entertaining

Keep wearing those compression socks on planes man. Almost died from a PE and that was not fun at all. It really does work (also stand up regularly and drink water while flying).

I love Sweetwater but they are like a mom and pop store compared to Amazon. Sure, Amazon isn't selling high end guitars, amps..., but they sell tons of musical equipment and accessories.

REI is actually losing money presently compared to other outdoor sporting goods stores. I've been an occasionally frequent REI customer for 20+ years. They're frequently not pricing anything competitively on most products that I would shop for. I think they are nice looking stores but I'm not rich and I can't afford full retail all the time when Amazon has it delivered next day for significantly less.

What you guys are describing for house brands is Michael Kelly guitars, which Sam Ash owns. They fit all the criteria except the brand and logo. GC could buy the brand and rename it or go with "Kelly" or "MK". Phil McKnight reviewed one a couple months ago I'd have no problem owning one, but the "Michael Kelly" is right of there with "Oscar Schmidt" - The name and logo suck. The guitars are great.

sorry to hear about the stones. I was in the ER last week due to dehydration.

It doesn't always keep coming back Rett. I had four stones about ten years ago. I don't know if soda affected it but I eventually stopped drinking it. I haven't had any since. We're about 350 miles from the nearest G.C. We do have a local mom and pop store that carries Murphy lab and Fender custom shop. They have a great online presence. Every guitar they have have multiple quality pictures on the website.

REI is actually imploding at the corporate level.

@Rhett it was an audible difference for sure

I just went to three GCs in Nashville for the last time today. I can’t imagine going back.

My experience: Sam Ash was a cozier atmosphere, with more knowledgeable staff, and a much better pedal selection. Guitar Center was a cold atmosphere, the staff basically knew nothing (probably were flipping burgers 2 weeks before), and evolved to a point where they had nothing I cared about except an occassional used item. GC also locked all $1000+ acoustics to the wall, and all $700+ electrics are up so high that they are out of reach. If I can't grab a guitar and play it, I won't play it - I hate asking for help. Leave me a long, let me do my thing, and I will end up buying things. They blamed it on theft. But in the old days, GC had someone at the front door making sure you didn't grab and run. GC also never maintained the guitars (old dead strings, poorly setup, non-functional controls). I loved GC when I first started going (30 years ago???), but it has evolved into a very disappointing experience. And I think it is mostly due to venture capital ownership. As for beginners vs. experienced customers...I think they are right. They evolved into a cheap guitar shop for beginners. What are the margins on a $300 guitar? Not much. If they can re-establish themselves as a mid-tier player, they might be able to recover. I am lucky enough to hvae a really nice mom-and-pop store within 40 minutes drive, and it is well worth the drive. Knowledgeable staff, better selection of guitars, pedals, etc., nice atmosphere (they have a couch for example), and overall, a great experience. I've purchased from them twice, and would have purchased a third time, but they didn't have what I was looking for (nobody did - DGT SE during t he first few months). I will keep going there as longh as they survive.

The main chain in my town, if you ask about getting something in they’re always telling you to order it online. The staff seem genuinely pissed off at dealing with customers as it takes away from time they have to dick around on the stuff they’re supposed to be selling.

As a player who got my first guitar during the pandemic I feel driven to defend my honour, Rhett 'Worse Slide Player Than Josh Scott' Shull! Sure I'm no Billy F Gibbons. I'm not even much of a Billie Joe Armstrong, but I'm still going dammit! Now go drink more water.

Guitar center already has a store brand for pedals (Gamma)

Oh, I definitely want to see the modular rig dipped!

GC Tuner, power supply, cables, and the main straight ahead flavors of drive, fuzz, delay, and reverb isn’t a bad idea. I don’t think GC branded guitars or amps will do very well. A lot of players care what the headstock says too much.

Know someone who made the mistake of getting their guitar setup at a GC. They filed the saddles on his Mastery bridge.

Rhett you’re spot on with the social media stuff. Last year I bought a guitar from peach guitars website and had it shipped. Saw it in an unboxing video and their guy demoed it. I had seen enough of their content I felt good about buying it

Very interesting topic … my buddy owns a very large music store and a pretty major player in the northern Maryland music scene and region … I go there all the time !! Everyone there is a musician They all play in bands We all know each other And it’s so far removed from what GC and most major box stores …. GC is the Walmart of guitar stores and honestly even my beloved home store is barely hanging on …. I go there for EVERYthing just so I can try and do my part to support them

On Zach's rejection of the "own brand" thing; why can I find, in rural Canada, a secondhand Harley Benton? An own brand for one guitar store in Germany? You market it as cool, you make them well & you sell them cheap...it's gonna work. Though marketing Guitar Center as cool is required long before you can their own brand. Check back in 15-20 years.

Guitar Center watching this and be like well we can do a house brand and name it Goo Man 😮

Guitar center has its own line of pedals it's called gamma

I’d rather go to guitar center than buy from Sweetwater… only because I don’t like places that are really forcing people to drink the coolaid

Great idea about GC becoming REI. The biggest suck about GC is everything is locked up, and employees aren't offering to be helpful. I worked at REI and customers regularly set up tents, load up backpacks and walk around the store, test ride bicycles... imagine if GC could offer that experience!

Been there Rhett. Kidney stones are no fun.

Sam Ash went out of business because they didn't treat their customers well. I worked for Sam Ash for 5 yrs and they don't treat their employees well, and the employees didn't treat their customers well.

Does GC pay their employees well? I had a sales guy walk straight up to as I was walking in. The first thing he ask was " Are You going to buy anything?"

Ummmm is Rhett too young to remember Laguna guitars? That was a GC house brand that Greg Howe endorsed for a while. I never loved the headstock, but they've tried this idea before.

If you're in bikes check out Paul Brodie

I don’t think GC should have their own brand that’s $1500 to $2500! That would be a huge fail for them… guitarists aren’t up for another throw away brand. Fast fashion concepts should f carry over to GC. They said? Maybe lean into more exclusivity in the GC exclusive models. Have fender make GC only American vintage ii strats, and don’t raise the price…. S pedal brand could work. Maybe a build your own amp brand where you buy kits that have custom shop quality components. That’d be cool.

I was asked how much would you pay for a used Fender Black Walnut Elite with gold hardware. I put a down payment. I was in the Navy. I was told the rest was due a day before payday. I went to pay it off. I was told I needed 85 cent more. Hence it's name.

It’s funny they brought up Mitchell for guitar center …. I literally saw a Mitchell bass on a stand that had a broken headstock at GC and I was like damn that’s a shame … And someone on staff said …. Dude it’s a Mitchell don’t feel bad for it 😂😅

GC trying to build a guitar brand would be a giant money sink and likely fail. Shy of buying reverend, sire or Harley Benton it would be just another brand. I think a better solution is to create a Best Buy/ Magnolia experience. Have a high end section with premium products, make that area a cut above the general showroom space.

Is REI in trouble?

Rhett is spot on about the neck swap on his channel. The rosewood board was much warmer than either of the maple necks. I wasn't using headphones so couldn't tell a difference between the road worn maple and the roasted maple neck, both were noticeably brighter sounding than the rosewood board neck. Great video.

One of these days Rhett is going to go to KC to visit Josh during basketball season and go to a KU game

I wonder about the demographic fueling the guitar industry. It's definitely not the majority of poor working musicians who can't afford anything or a handful of successful musicians/RU-vidrs. I think there is a big hump of entry-level buyers, but the profit margin on what they buy is small. Every piece of gear behind Rhett and Zach probably has the most sales to "Plan B" musicians who have a successful career outside of music and they also buy for their kids, but don't buy low end crap. The mid priced market has would also be a demographic of tired working stiff rather than poor working musician. In short, brick-and-mortar guitar shops need to market merchandise with a decent profit margin to those who can afford it in the manner Rhett described (well laid out by knowledgeable staff...). However, they can do a house brand for cables and stuff like that, but not guitar and amps because it creates a perceived conflict of interest (Look at the kerfuffle with Anderton's and Victory).

Overhere in Holland we used to have keymusic who had several musicshops in belgium and holland , but just like gc they completely missed the internettrain and went bankrupt ( to much overheadcost ect. ) , and just like sweetwater in the states is now the big player , overhere we have bax music leading the gearmarket in holland and belgium , and although many people from holland and belgium also do a lot off business with the 2 biggest german retailers ( thomann and musicstore ) bax music is just getting bigger , so yeah , i think no matter how many new ceo's ( with big , non sensible plans ) or new investors gc will get , they are doomed and will end up like sam ash , it just how business / economics works , and as usual is the fault of bad management .

I liked a lot of your perspectives gents. The northeast seems like its got a lot of everything, like one guitar center that stinks and then another one across town that doesn't... The Sam Ash by me thats closing was profitable, but they're part of the whole so they're going down with the ship. There's independent mom and pops closing... and new ones with young owners being opened up... It's hard to gauge what's happening other than the ones that succeed are the ones that care enough to do well the things you talked about, i.e. keeping things in good condition and allowing people access to them... growing with the social media world and caring enough to put a face with the brand and connect with the audience. I'm optimistic about the success that awaits for those who care and put in the effort, be them a big or little business.

welcome to the 20th century. oh, it's the 21st!! i've had 4 kidney stones and it all relates to lack of water!

well if they sell online then yes.....

Time for a new Mythos pedal, the tin foil hat

Wait until your gall bladder fills with stones . That's like a heart attack. 😂

When the big chain stores stopped the ability to haggle over prices, they lost a lot of customers. The serious musician is going to go when they can get a deal and develop a relationship with a store where the customer feels valued. The big box chains are to disappear. The smaller mom and pop stores are going to survive IMHO

Guitar Center always reminded me of a Best Buy for musical instruments to me. It's just kinda there and you stop in every now and then to look around or grab something you need the day of. I feel like Chicago Music Exchange on a slightly smaller scale with stores a cross the country would be a cool thing. They are so great with marketing and capture that "REI" vibe as Rhett spoke about.

That intro music is killer! Did you guys do it together?

A RU-vidr now has expertise in retail branding? Stick to guitar videos

If it isn't Zach & Rhett (gay for Mayer) Shull