Can HLG replace LOG on your GH5 or GH5s? 

+mpgxsvcd awesome. Can you send me the data regarding the color range. I can't find any white papers on it. All I can find is speculation so I went with what felt correct. Do I not mention the color space? If you take a 2020 image and attempt to work it on a rec 709 sequence without a transfer lut you are NOT taking advantage of that range of color. Further isn't the dr of hlg a strongly compressed curve? I understand working in 2020 but I see no advantage at all in working the wrong color space in 709. I was also at the end of the lens with exposure so how does one compensate for crushed blacks from hlg when there literally is no room to move them.

There isn't a single white paper that gives you all of the information. You must use the Vlog White Paper which defines the curve up to 16 stops and then use Barry Green's "Vlog-L" paper to determine the bit value of the brightest bit that the GH5 can record. You can see that 4 stops above middle grey is about 740 on the Vlog-L chart. That is the maximum value that the GH5 can store for white in 10 BIT Vlog-L. The minimum value is 128 for 10 BIT Vlog-L. That only leaves about 612 BITs for 10 BIT Vlog-L as compared to HLG which uses up to (940-64) = 876. HLG uses about 30% more BITs than VLog-L and it can contain vastly more colors than Vlog-L because of the REC.2020 vs. REC.709 differences. Panasonic has never explicitly defined what 8 BIT Vlog-L is. They have only ever defined 10 and 12 BIT Vlog. However, you can infer from the papers that since 12 BIT Vlog is 4 times the values of 10 BIT Vlog that 8 BIT Vlog-L is 1/4 the values of 10 BIT Vlog-L. That would leave us with 32-185 with only 153 total BITs for 8 BIT Vlog-L. That is not many BITs and it is also why most people say don't use 8 BIT Vlog-L. I don't know why people insist on transforming HLG to REC.709. Just Render it to HLG HDR REC.2020 and upload it that way. It will display in both SDR and HDR. If you are truly looking for ultimate accuracy with SDR then you are best to use CineD or 10 BIT Vlog-L. Those are the two profiles that are made to achieve proper REC.709. You can force HLG into a REC.709 space but there are so many opportunities to mess things up that it isn't worth it. Here are links to the white papers. pro-av.panasonic.net/en/varicam/common/pdf/VARICAM_V-Log_V-Gamut.pdf www.panasonic.com/content/dam/Panasonic/cb/en/Business/AVCCAM/2015/AG-DVX200/VOL.%206%20-%20ENGLISH.pdf

Exactly this! This video is very misleading because it is based off inaccurate metadata info.

This made my knowledge more solid. Thanks!

Good job on clearing that up. I think that converting hlg to rec709 or any other color space is simply a matter of delivery - internet, tv, cinema etc. Hlg is tricky, you need a hdr device with hlg support to even see what's going on. I'm not sure how youtube treats hlg in, say, sRGB environment like PC. Correct me on that, but given HLGs superiour results when it comes to storing video data, It's better to use it as shooting profile. What is more in a true 32bit enviroment like Resolve, you could transform hlg to rec709 or rec2020 (applying only gamma curve conversion) using colourspace transform tool (not destructively with LUT) and in theory keep that juicy color information. Am I getting it right?

mimotan but why go through all that trouble if you're finishing in rec 709? If doing HDR I'm way more partial to HDR10 over hlg.

because v-log has the black point at around 128 and white point (only in vlog "L") at around 768...so youre not using the whole 10bit...youre more in a 9bit space. Not talking about the bitrate... In HLG you're using every bit of the full 10bit color space. Usefull for 709, hdr10 or any other finishing.

We prefer, strongly, to use LOG for HDR10 as it to our scopes and eyes presents a better image in comparison the HLG.

CRFTSHO if youre scopes shows a better image, so a different image, after doing what I explained, you're definitely doing something wrong. I've seen others on yt arguing 8bit is better than 10bit, so this dispute is wasing time...and I'm sorry If You felt offended. That wasn't my purpose...I was just trying to help others get better results.

But they didnt though... because the info is totally inaccurate...

No we will not, itro was awesome, !!!!!!

True but it still limits the color range on intake if the TV cannot display rec 2020

Adam Johnson color space is a standard term used in video/film production. Color space is for instance CIE1931 or XYZ, etc. Then there is also color gamut, as in rec709, P3, etc. This are standard terms and usign them incorrectly just shows ignorance and lack of knowledge :)

Yes I believe he is mistaken about the color range as well.

+Dennis Schmitz we have. 😁 Simply referring to rec 709.

I keep hearing this about both tonality and dynamic range, but I've yet to see the two stack up side by side where HLG has the same as or more than V-log. I just keep hearing it, but not seeing it. Know of any tests that have already been done and posted online?

We did something similar a while back ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--Cw1wqmiUOs.html

You can test it yourself by recording in both formats then apply a color space transform in davinci after setting clips to full range. Apply the transform to the hlg to convert it to vlog. You will see both images are the same in terms of dynamic range.

Export it out and see if it holds 2020. We could not get it to lock 2020 into metadata.

CRFTSHO Sure thing. I never checked the metadata, but I do know it shoes HDR on the scopes when you change the scopes to show HDR, and when uploading to youtube it registers and shows HDR and on my HDR TV as well as my Galaxy Note 8 playing it from RU-vid in HDR looks beautiful. Lol

Looks like he was playing in arcade mode. He probably won.

I'm not a fan of FCPX - I left at FCP 7 due to limited functionality.

You need to use Resolve 15 or 16, Final Cut Pro (the latest), or some other compatible NLE... and NOT Premiere. At its core, Premiere is outdated. Adobe is just riding on subscription fees and muscle memory. Break free of Premiere!

seconded. I'd like to know as well.

For us its a REC 2020 color space vs a 709 color space issue. The amount of work going into the transform vs just shooting log correctly didn't make sense when we get are getting paid...cause time is money and frankly very few people would ever really see the difference.

Respectfully disagree.

We don't spend a ton of time setting up the on camera stuff. Frankly, we're pretty lazy about it as we want it to be about the content not just the yammering drew.

Thanks, I was just a confused loyal viewer :)

Premiere pro hates render

I'm not sure I follow you here...who's a wannabe filmmaker? I'd just say get the shot. In the end all that matters is story and if the technical minutiae prohibits the execution of said story the issue is either artist internal (novice) or external (poor planning). Just remember none of the tech matters if you can't use it to better tell a story. 😁

CRFTSHO I suppose most of the people look at your video aren't professionals, you need explain basic things better to avoid common mistake and silly leggends.

+toriigatedigital render errors from my crap pro I mean Mac pro.

@thebeardcolor?

Thanks man.

Its a HDR (high dynamic range) format included in the GH5 and Gh5s.

CRFTSHO oh damn thanks I have a g85 and a fs5 but been thinking about getting a gh5!

I'll double check but I think it's called infolite

Invisor.

Premiere is broken and converts everything to rec 709.

I've noticed it with another youtuber and he shoots with either a GH5 or GH5s.. I wonder what causes it but makes me not wanna buy the camera

For us it's a render error out of the Mac.

@@CRFTSHO ohh okay, yeah he uses a macbook pro to render (his YT is "Joo. Works") so.. I'm guessing maybe for some reason, in certain cases, the mac really doesn't like gh5 footage? Odd. But thank you for the response. I was worried it could be resolve as well (and I use resolve) but he uses Adobe so 🤷‍♂️

It's a Mac graphics card issue. We've had it out of resolve as well. When doing work for clients we screen and QC our renders. It's not localized to gh5 footage. Happens to all cameras ie any sort of render.

@@CRFTSHO oh wow.. so what happens when you have a project due for a client and you have this artifacting? Render it on a different computer?

Normally, that's the case, but for some consumer or prosumer cameras being used in a fully pro setting, the HLG profile is supposedly eeking out the most color and dynamic range from the camera sensor since their LOG settings are gimped in some way. HLG in some of these "lowly" cameras (like the GH5 and GHs) also use the full 10 bit video data (as most in this range don't have 12 bit or 14 bit depth). If you're careful in your workflow, HLG can be used as a base for other video formats. Now, this is not the case for all cameras and the better the specs on a particular make and model, the more you can then rely on LOG and RAW for pure footage capture and then transform them to any other final deliverable format, including HLG.

@@dan_hitchman007 Thank you for your most informative reply. The past 2 years I shot almost everything in vlog lite with GH5, a cameraman told me I had to film in this v log (lite) profile. It is indeed 'flexible' and has 'ok' dynamic range but colors (especially skin tones) are very hard to grade. I allways thought this is because of me being inexperienced in color grading, and that hiring a professional colorist could resolve this issue. Even then, I am worried about this, because grading RAW stills from the same GH5 sensor shows much more flexibility and better colors. But now, if I understand correctly, you are suggesting v log in 'lowly' GH camera's just isn't good enough, and I conclude HLG 10-bit would approach the colors (from RAW stills) more? Is this because v log lite is limited in REC 709, and HLG is BT2020 (camera=GH5).

Yeah. Use the lite version

Thanks i cannot seem to find the link on google can you direct me to it, great video btw!

www.invisorapp.com

V-Log is an optional paid extra for the GH line that is effectively replicating shooting in a digital version of a film negative, storing the values of luminance in a logarithmic way instead of linearly meaning that each stop of dynamic range occupies a similar amount of data across the entire luminance range (a stop in the shadows uses the same amount of values as a stop in the highlights). It essentially maximises the output of the sensor and records it in an as close to the raw unprocessed image as possible without it being actual RAW. Basically, it means doing all the work to process the image in post instead of letting the camera create a near-final image.

Did I get out of sync?

CRFTSHO I had sync problems in the last half of the video. Maybe it was me!!

+Andrew Gebbie yeah wonder why it was out for you.

Good. We can't trust you either.