Car Buyer Invokes 'Lehto's Law' For the Win! Ep. 7.283 

We put in an offer for a house, we went to our solicitors to sign the papers which we had to do that afternoon so the seller didn't have to pay stamp duty (stamp duty holiday). The agent had put a higher price on the offer. We called, thinking a mistake, he claimed that's the price. We walked. They called us back 2 months later and asked us to submit the previous offer. We submitted an offer less the cost of our previous solicitors fees. He called back trying to argue, I said take it or leave it. Cost the seller $60k in stamp duty. Always understand what cards you hold in a negotiation and don't overplay your hand.

What about saying "Before I drive over three hours to your dealership, please shoot me an e-mail with all of the details we spoke about listed?" Having it on paper is a powerful argument. It could save you a trip.

Man walks into a car dealership and gets cheated: That's not a story. Man walks into a car dealership and gets the deal he was initially offered: Now THAT's a story!

My uncle used to say "Never fall in love with anything that can't love you back" He also said "Everything is for sale except my wife and my dog."

I have a very similar story Steve. I went to a Hyundai Dealer here in Las Vegas, NV, and went to buy a 2016 Accent. They had the "Value" version with some goodies, but my girlfriend at the time and I went there because they had an "Uber" discount. They would knock $1k off of a vehicles price if you were an Uber driver. My girlfriend test drove the car, (I was buying it for her) and she liked it. We went through negotiations, I used sales data to see what the lowest prices these cars had sold for to know what wiggle room I had. I negotiated them down, 4 hours ticks by, back and forth blah blah blah. Got the interest rate down to 0%, my girlfriend is freaking out because they were loosing patience with me. I kept on arguing with them on the price. 5 hours in she's telling me that I'm pissing them off and she's worried they're going to tell us to screw off. I told her no, you don't understand. We're here at the end of the month, they pushed us to come in today, it's February and this is last years model, we're going to get this. We're back in the finance managers office for the 4th time, they bust out the long form for the 4th revision, and they jacked the price up 1k to offset the 1k Uber discount. I looked at him and asked him if he thought I was stupid. My girlfriend snapped at me, I said "no", it a discount and you have to honor that. They pull out of nowhere a Monroney label that reflects a higher priced car and said this is the price of the car. Myself being an automotive technician, instantly see a different VIN on the paper, and tell them that's not my car. Very similarly equipped, almost had me fooled. 5th time back in the office, 5th long form, and magically I got the car for $13,734. They tacked on a smog fee for $29.50. I told them what's that? They even told me it was regulatory and it had to be on there. Again, "Am I stupid? New vehicles are smog exempt in the state of Nevada for 2 years." Shocked that I knew that and my girlfriend was really pissed at me now. Ended up paying the smog fee, and traded it for 2 oil changes (and told them it must be full synthetic ones) and walked out with her new car for $80 bucks less a month. She finally said thank you and told me next time she's not going to give me any scuff. 6 hours later, $3k off sticker, 0% interest with Hyundai motor finance, 2 oil changes on the house, and I also got unlimited car washes from them in the deal. You've got to stick to your guns, get the timing right, and use all the data you can find. Know your leverage before you go. I'm glad they got that challenger for the price they were quoted finally, good to hear another person didn't get ripped off out there.

Steve: Actually Henry Ford promoted the concept of car dealerships. He did this for two reasons. The first (and main one) was so he didn't have to carry the inventory and financing of the cars. Instead he demanded that his dealers carry the inventory and obtain their own financing. This meant that the sale of the car was actually a cash transaction for him. The second reason was so he didn't have to provide local service for his product. But that there was local service available. Again the dealers had to provide the facility for this and carry a parts inventory. All Ford had to do was to pay them for In Warranty service.

Wow, this story hits a nerve. Back in 1972 I was 19 and a total Ford loving gearhead. One day on a used car lot, I spotted one of my dream cars - a 1969 fastback Mustang GT with a 390 automatic. It was even the same green color as Steve McQueen's in the movie Bullet. I was drooling all over it. I even took it for a test drive. I wanted that car so bad and the salesman knew it. He quoted a price (I can't remember it). At 19, I didn't have enough credit to finance it on my own. I told the salesman I will bring my father to co-sign the loan and I will buy that car. The salesman said ok. I came back that same day with my father. Now the salesman gives us the bad news. The Mustang is several hundred dollars more than he originally said because he did not know about the repairs they had to do to the car before putting it out on the lot. I could not have cared less about the price increase - I wanted that car no matter what. However, my father being much more rational, told the salesman we would only pay the amount originally quoted. The salesman would not budge, and neither would my father. We ended up walking away. I knew my father was right, but my heart was broken nonetheless.

Back in the late 80's I stopped at a dealership that was way low on inventory (dealership was about to sell) and was looking at a top of their line car. Salesman asked me "What would it take to do this right now?" I pointed to my trade (high miles, a little rough, but no mechanical issues) and threw out a number that was 75% of the sticker. In the back and forth I acted bored, and said I really wanted a different color. They found one the next state over but they became invested in selling THAT car... Four hours later I ended up only paying $ 500 more for the car than I originally said. I considered that a WIN.

My father was the best negotiator. I came along with him several times, when decided to get a new car. Almost always on a weekend. He could sit in a dealership cubicle for hours. He'd wear out the salesman. He was never afraid to walk out. Often he'd give the dealer a price and his phone number, then left. Got calls back several times. Never afraid to low ball. Starting at half off, often. Dealing with people, in person (not online) is a lost art. He, himself, was a salesman (insurance, and he called it a scam himself). His sales method was buddying up to the customer, to point that they felt obligated to buy something from him.

My wife is the most awesome car shopper I know; when she was shopping for a new car, she found a car she liked and test drove it to another dealership. The salesperson saw the dealer tags and was curious, so she told him that she was ready to sign, but wanted to see what they were willing to do. She took their car home while I returned the first dealers car and picked up her trade in, explaining what was going on. Dealer 1 then made an offer thousands lower than the original offer just to beat their competitor down the street. Dealer 2 backed down and my wife saved a couple of thousand dollars. Sometimes she scares me, but in a good way. I guess the moral is; even if you have a few hours invested, don’t be afraid to walk away.

I bought a 2015 Subaru Forester in 2017. It was used. When I went test driving different vehicles, I liked this one and told the sales person that this was it. They refused to budge on the price, even though I was willing to put down $5,000 cash (well, a check but the same thing in the end) and have a credit score above 800. I walked out, got in my car and was winding my way through their parking lot to get to the exit, when the sales person and the "finance guy" jumped in front of my car, and said they'd lower the price. Price went from $13,500 down to $10,450. Walking away works, and it is funnier when you can get in your car and actually start driving away before they stop you. My old neighbor worked for a dealership for a long time. He said that if I ever wanted to get a car, contact him and he could get me a good deal. I asked him first, and entertained him as he drove me to a couple different places (to where he knew people at the dealerships) and kept saying that the price offers he was getting me were the best I'd get. I rolled up in my new (new to me) SUV and told him what happened.. I could see it in his face that I did the right thing by not trusting him.

This can be a problem with many items today, but especially car tires. They tell you or the ad says that a given tire is $150 each, but then they charge you $10 each for valve stems, $10 each for mounting, $10 each for balancing and $10 each for " tire disposal". I ALWAYS ask "what is the amount I am going to write a check for?". Those bogus charges usually disappear.

My story is about my 2009 Toyota Prius purchase. Ordered one at the local dealer, green. Weeks later with no car I asked around and a coworker recommended a dealer a couple hours away. I called them and told them what I wanted. A few days later they called and had found what I wanted and told me the price. I called the first dealer back and asked for my deposit back. They responded with OH! We have your car. I went in and they wanted to do the paperwork before I saw the car! I read over the paperwork and saw it was the wrong color! They tried to convince me it was the color I said! I said no I want my deposit back. Took two days to get a check and the manager apologized and said he hoped they could earn my business in the future. About a week later when the second dealer got my car in and called me to say Toyota started a program and was it OK if they charged me $1000 LESS for the car! I called the day before driving to them to pick it up to ask the final price because I had my own financing and the salesman started laughing? He said you haven’t bought from us before have you? No. The price we agreed on is the full price, no add ons, no baloney! The next day I handed them a check for the exact amount and the deal was done. After that the salesman spent over an hour with my wife and I going for a drive and explaining hybrid car operation to us etc. ! There are some good ones out there after all ! My next car was from a different dealer. On a weeknight they kept us there until nearly midnight and without my realizing it they changed the financing so I did not qualify for a manufacturers discount of $1000. So I lost the $1000 on that deal.

Once, with a woman from Ukraine, I thought I to explain to her that on the larger purchases, we should negotiate the price. Next opportunity, she motioned me to sit that one out, and promptly tore the salesman to shreds, possibly getting him to sell at near zero margin,

Had a dealership try similar tactic to me in 1987. Ask to see the Nissan p/u from ad in paper. After deciding I would buy went to get my Dad since I was 17. Came back and paperwork had different price. Claimed the ad was for a pickup they already sold. They didn't realize I was more emotionally invested in the price than the pickup. My dad and I both got up to leave. Didn't even make it to the door before they came down to the originally agreed on price. It was good to learn the lesson at such an early age that them guys down at the dealerships aren't my buddies.

When we were buying our pre-owned boat, it was a 4 hour drive to Scotland and when we got there, the owners started messing us about. We simply said "We have the money, we are offering to buy at price £xxxx. Call us if you change your mind" and we walked. Ten days later we were standing on another boat when the phone rang and we were told that our "offer has been accepted". I said we were looking at putting an offer in on a different boat and would call back and left them to sweat for a bit. Always walk. You have the money and that is what they want more than anything else and there are always more cars / boats / whatever out there. BTW - when I called back, I said we would buy but if they mucked us about we would buy our 2nd choice boat. There was no more shenanigans...

I found your channel when I was car shopping. I saw an unbelievable good deal on a car on a dealers website over the weekend. On Monday morning I texted with a sales person, about the car and the deal. I gave them the VIN #, Stock # and a couple of screen shots of the car and price. They told me that yes, the price on the website was the correct price for that VIN # and Stock # car. So after work I went to the dealership and met with the sales person. He assured me that yes, that price was the correct price and and tried to get me to test drive the car. I told him that I knew this was the car I wanted and after I could see the paperwork with the price for that car, I would take it for a test drive before I signed the papers. He went to get he paperwork and about 45 minutes later (yes I should have walked out) he and the finance manager came back and the finance manger asked how in the world I thought they would sell that car for that price. I had printed out the text conversation and gave it to him and said this is why I believed you would sell that car for that price. He looked at me and tried his song and dance # on me. I told him, that I would be willing to negotiate, a little, but I was not going to pay what he wanted me to. Finally, I just got up and walked out. They tried to call me a couple of times but I just told them that I was no longer interested in the car. I had a similar experience with a 2nd dealership and almost gave up totally. I finally purchased a car from a dealership across the state because after we negotiated a price, they stuck to their word and gave me a good deal on the car I now own. Car buying sucks but I have stuck around and love your RU-vid channel!

I walked out of a dealership after 3 hours of negotiation. The salesman literally came running after me, but I kept walking. They had their chance and they blew it. I went to Costco and used their car buying program. Got a great car at a fair price, and no sleaziness or lies.

This happened when my son went to buy a used car in Scottsdale. My husband happened to go along and discovered a few extra services tacked on that weren't divulged initially. His articulate but loud reaction caused them to agree to the originally advertised price.

Thank You for another great video Steve. I know of ONE new car dealer who I have dealt with my entire life (or since I was 18) that I trust. This dealer is a tiny one in Louisiana. I am now 60 years old and have bought dozens of cars/trucks from that dealer and most recently It has been over the phone. I then travel from Minnesota to Louisiana, give the dealer my personal check, and drive away. I fully understand that his price excludes TT & L which I pay in Minnesota when I return home. The whole process from the time I walk into the dealership and back out again, is maybe 2 hours. That includes the test drive which I do by myself by the way and a lot of good ole country boy catchin' up and fraternization. I have yet to endure what you speak of in your videos save for going to dealerships here in Minnesota and being faced with the same type of games. That's why I decided to travel bacy "home" to buy my vehicles.

A lovely 2nd hand Mini Cooper caught my eye (back in 78 when l was a scruffy snot-nosed punk) so l went back with my elder brother & cash in hand. As we're speaking with the salesman an elderly couple shows up looking at an old beater Ford, so he walks over to them. My brother _loudly_ calls him back & he ignores us, so a few choice words were spewed & we started walking. The couple saw what happened & walked as well. Salesguy looked like he was gonna cry but he didn't dare call us back. (l bought a motorcycle instead - private sale) Good times!

Bravo to this buyer. A well informed customer is a dealer's worst enemy.

Last car I bought, they had everything but the color. They actually guaranteed the price for that model and package and said they would get it. They called me 2 days later saying they have it and I arranged to pick it up the next evening. When we arrived, they said it was in detailing and would be out in a few minutes, but said they didn't get the exact model we wanted. Then they said it had an additional package that was not on the advertised model. I thought here we go, but they honored the original price!!!! I got the advertised model with an upgrade for the same price. I have sent more people to this dealer to the point they have offered me a job countless times. One year I sold 5 cars for them. All they had to do was write them up and do the financing. Done deals. I will go to them first when I'm ready to buy my next car which will be in about 10 years. One car is 14 model years old, the other is 10. I have a tendency to keep them forever. MSgt David R. Smyth, USAF, Ret.

I had a dealership in NJ that leased me a car as a "smart loan". I will admit that I was upset over a lemon I was sold by another dealership and was in a frantic state of mind because in less than a year, the lemon-supposedly certified pre-owned-had starter issues out of the gate and an issue with the engine. I was not happy to be in and out of the shop several times and in one case, the dealership that sold me the lemon replaced the starter with an after market product instead of a factory part. The car maker by the way was very supportive on this by refunding my payments on the repairs. I wound up going to the other dealership and a salesperson convinced me about a "smart loan" that was actually a lease. This salesperson actually vanished and for three years of the four year lease, I was constantly in a battle over them misrepresenting their lease. They refused to work with me and every remedy they offered was as bad or worse than the lease cost wise. At no point did any of them say that the lease could be terminated and the remaining months paid off to buy it out (no surprise) UNTIL my mom-a former CEO of a financial institution came in and argued with them, at which point the sales person who we were dealing with let slip that it could be bought out. My mom and I both looked at each other and talked in front of the sales person about my returning the car and buying one of my parents' cars. So, we started the process (i was working through the maker's finance company) and the dealership manager actually threatened my credit worthiness for terminating the lease. He wanted to try to sell me another car. What was funny was my parents were there when I turned the car in (they brought the car I was buying from them so I could drive home after we finished the return and the transfer of ownership) and the sales manager came out in this red suit with Santa faces on it. My mom looks at him and says "Festive, are we?" He says "I cannot talk you guys into buying a car" or something like that and both my mom and I are like "NO!". I left out that the manager flew off the handle when I was on the phone arranging the return of the car as per the finance company and he asked me about my experience and I was like "I'm never buying another car from a New Jersey dealership again". When he lost his crap, I yelled at him "You asked! Don't like it? Don't ask!"

Many years ago, my brother found himself looking for a job. He had been selling material handling products for several years, but the economy was in the tank at the time and companies weren't buy the products he was selling. He found a job selling cars at a local dealership and showed up bright and early on a Monday for their training class. Lunch time rolls around and he walks out, gets in his car and leaves. He told me that he just couldn’t employ the sales tactics they were teaching in that class.

Steve, love your channel I have been watching with my 10 year old son who has been planning his law career for about 3 years now. We have great conversations and discussions about your videos. A few years ago a friend was moving to our province of Alberta ahead of his family and asked me find him a new car. I was shopping for one too so I went and lined up 3 cars to look at at different dealerships that met his requirements. We test drove several and he picked his car, and I found one Iiked too. We asked to buy them but they would not tell us the price until we financed with them. To finance with them we were asked to sign a purchase agreement with no purchase price on the car, to which we refused. They said it is no big deal we do this all the time. To which I replied, let's go. And took the pen away from my friend. They followed us all the way out the door and down the street to the other dealership. First with sales tactics and explaining we don't understand how the system works. Then threatening us that we will be charged fees and rental on the cars and that since they had pulled our credit already we would have a bad credit score. They claimed they could pull our credit because we had taken a test drive despite not signing an authorization for anything. We kept walking. The new dealership provided us full details and price sheets on both vehicles as soon as we arrived. Only section blank was if we were paying in film or if we were financing but the total price with all options and add-ons was itemized. Came to find out that the first dealership had in fact pulled credit reports on both of us 15 times from other dealerships in thier chain. A very quick call to the credit bureau and to the owners of the dealership group got that fixed in a hurry, and it was removed in 2 days. I have bought over a dozen cars and never had that experience before, yet when I shared it people over and over told me I was wrong that is how it is done because the dealership can not tell you the price until they know the finance rate. That is not what they were doing. I have worked in finance and banking and my work now is all business negotiations and working with lawyers, hence my sons interest in law. They were asking me to sign a contract without out a make or model let alone options or add ons and with the monthly payment amount filled in. They amount was my stated preference but not my maximum nor did it factor down payments. I know you are in Michigan but have you ever heard of this tactic before? It was basically we will decide what your car is after we get you to sign a sales agreement that is half unfilled once we get the financing in place. Never had that experience again, but we only deal with the second autogroup now after the experience with the first. Wanted to share to hear your take on it and perhaps let your Canadian viewers know this is very risky agreeing to sign a blank purchase agreement with the payment amount filled in. Take care.

Steve: when you are on the "inTRAnet", you are connecting to local computers in your office network. "inTERnet" is what you were apparently connecting to.

I did just that. In 1976 my 4WD was stolen from my work car park. By Feb 1977 I found a 3yr old ex police Toyota Landcruiser 4WD, wlith many extras and low milage, 27000km, at just on $40000 . New value with all extras at least $59000 so still good value. The extras were tow pack, safety cargo grid for rear compartment, factory Airconditioner, Front 'bull bar', Power take off 25000kg winch ($3500 value). A huge increase on $6600 insurace payout, but I asked cash price, no finance, no extra charges, drive away price. On basis of full cash payment, they agreed to labelled price. After deposit,and getting alarm/immobiliser fitted, I scrapped together the money, borrowing in familay and friends. On coming back 1o week later to finalise paymentand pickup the ready vehicle. On giving the bank cash cheque they started adding inspection registration, detailing etc etc. Some $3200 ontop of agree "drive away" price. I simply had all the money I could get. I started to walk away, and the sales guy offered terms, a short term loan and finance to cover the extra, anything to get away with the extra money. I remained firm on the agreed "drive away" price. As I was about to exit the car yard a senoir sales manager interuptted a session with other customers and approached. After going over the history of my deal he calmly insisted the other charges were necessary, and required to be paid, and they can not lose money on the deal. I chuckled and stated they could not lose, as they buy these ex gov vehicles at auction and that must be way below the demanded sale price, and proceeded to leave. On the footpath outside the car yard he persisted but finally offered to decrease the cost to $1000. I started opening the door to the borrowed car, with friend who drove me there. FINALLY, he turned to the younger salesman, and got him to recalculate the sales price so that I paid the agreed price and also added compensation of 3yr/200000km extended Toyota warranty worth over $1500, as I was already on new vehicle warranty due to 27000km on a diesel engine is hardly run in anyway. I thus got my original agreed price, extended warranty, and before driving away noticed the removable part of the tow hitch was not there, got that as well, a further value over $150 included and not needing to be bought extra. I WON BY STICKING TO THE TERMS AGREED. No dealer ripoff accepted, though they tried hard for that extra CREAM. By the way my final price was about the same as advertised on a similar vehicle with 80% less extras at another caryard of the same dealership but with over 56000 km.

Two very different experiences I had: First was through a credit union program - walk in to dealership, mention the program and was taken to back office/fleet sales. Told them particulars, was given key for a solo test drive, came back they gave me printed sheet with details and price and 'give us a call if you decide to buy. Have a nice day.' Checked two other dealerships (not through the program) and wouldn't come even close. Went back and bought the car, no add-ons no pressure. Second was more typical - e.g. they lied that vehicle has 0 towing capacity w/out trans cooler to try to upsell tow package despite mfg website saying otherwise. After I suppose another hour they have finance docs done. But they gave higher interest rate. What about the 1.9%? "Oh you have to put at least X down." I did. "Oh thats not what they told me. Why do you want to put so much down?" "To get the lower rate" "oh. But then I have to start the paperwork over and we closed a half hour ago". "OK I'll wait" Paperwork didnt take nearly so long the second time...

Back in the early 70's (I was 12 or so) I went with my dad the B&B Appliance looking to get a Curtis Mathis TV. My dad saw a console TV that he liked, but not the price and the warranty so he negotiated with the salesman. He got the price dropped and an additional 2-years of warranty coverage for free. They shook hands on the deal. We went to the front desk and the salesman went into an office to talk to his boss and get the paperwork done. (It was run much like a car dealership, it seems.) The salesman came out with the paperwork and told my dad to sign the paper. My dad grabbed the pen but then started reading. The saleman said just sign. My dad asked what happened to the extended warranty and the price drop, to which the saleman responded that his boss said that it could not be done. My dad slammed down the pen and said something like "Well, then tell your boss that I'm sure he can bend over have me shove the TV up his ass!" I was shocked, but not nearly as much as the salesman. We walked out the door, and went home. My dad (old school European) told me never let anyone take advantage of you. We got a call a few hours later and got an additional amount of the TV in addition to the negotiated warranty and free delivery.

My late wife and I used to go looky-looing always in the morning, knowing what we wanted. We chase the salesmen away, with "Just Looking"! We would gather the info. Such as Sticker Prices, etc. We pretended to be dreamers and we would leave and then return about an hour before closing time. Two things happen, one different sales crew. Two changing the time leverage advantage. I would play sap (GOT TO HAVE IT), she would play the hard-line. We had one rule between us, if we didn't get it what we wanted at the price and terms we knew it should be. We would tag-team them if we didn't the deal we wanted or they tried to change any of the terms we would walk! Only once did we go home in the car we came! It's business, dealers treat customers like SMUCKS.

I bought an Explorer a little over 2 years ago. Found the ad on Autotrader, asked a friend who sells fords in another state if it was a good price and he said it was a fantastic price. I drove to the dealership, showed them the ad and asked if they would sell me that car at that price. Salesman said “yes.” We went on a test drive and I bought it at that price.

Really wanna get myself a new car, maybe Steve you can help me out

I've got a tangentially similar story that some of you may enjoy. I used to work at a dealership, years ago, and there were a lot of "typical" sales guys, but a few were really good guys. One of them is still in the business, so when my dad was looking for a new truck, we drove to the next state to work with him. My dad selected a truck, we worked out a deal that he was comfortable with for the purchase and trade, and were talking about the warranty options. Being familiar with the programs and prices, and how long my dad holds onto vehicles, I suggested that if they gave us the warranty for about a third of what the F&I guy offered, we'd take it, otherwise we would take just the truck. My friend went to check, and came back at the right price, but his body language was off. I looked at the new papers, and they had cut the price of the truck, and had the warranty on at the original price. I asked, and they pay sales on the vehicle only, and F&I on the add ons, so they were cutting my friends pay significantly. I went out back and told the GM, in no uncertain terms, that the only reason why we had driven so far was to deal with this one guy, and if they wanted to play games, I'm happy to buy my friend dinner for his time, and go buy our next car at some other dealership. They made it right. I know it's not a big story, but thought it might give folks a smile or two; cheers!

I visited the fleet manager at a Mazda dealership with all of the information about the car I wanted -- style, accessories.... Turned out they had exactly the one I wanted on the lot. But the manager wouldn't sell me the car, because it had been on the lot for over six months, and he couldn't sell it to me without a markup needed to cover the manufacturer financing on the car (it wasn't closeout time, so the manufacturer wouldn't forgive any portion of the interest on the loan). He asked me if I was willing to wait; I was. I saved $2K by having him order it (Mazda 3 hatch) from the factory and waiting the 3 months it took for the car to arrive from Hiroshima. That way, the dealer cleared a good profit and the car spent less than a day on the dealership lot, thus avoiding the manufacturer's finance fees (which you will have to pay even if you bring cash in hand, as we did). Just remember that sometimes a bird in the hand costs more, and a special order from the factory may be the better way.

interestingly enough about 13 months after you posted this, I had to buy a new vehicle. RIP my faithful Honda. I have only purchased a brand new car from a dealer lot one other time in my life. and here it was the 2022 car buying season, Lord of the Flies Edition. It took two days in a major metropolitan area to find a dealership that wasnt doing a weird mark up - either a simple "because we can" fee or through some nonsense like 5000 dollars for floor mats. because of the cost and my size (six and a half feet) I am VERY picky. Sales dude worked his ass off and I got lucky finding a truck with an odd configuration that suited me perfectly. Under MSRP, no weird, sudden unexpected costs. That was a fortunate experience for me. Even though I havent bought new very often, I have purchased many in private sales. Lehtos Law is very effective. for *any* major purchase. Always remember - you are usually solving a problem that you already have a means to deal with. Live with it a bit longer if the new deal isnt to your liking

When I went to saleman's school (yeah, a thing) they told us that "We'll be back" means they won't be back. Steve is 100% correct.

My story is about my first car buying story. My family decided it was about time that I had my own car, my first car, and we did a bunch of research on different cars around that time on our own. We narrowed it down to a few cars from a couple dealers, so we decided to go to the dealer that we had the highest likelihood of buying a car from, Hyundai. We go into the dealership, ready to make a deal, asking about the two different cars, and we wanted to compare them to make sure I would love this car, because we were going in with the assumption I would have this car for 10 years. We were sat down at the desk of a dealer, we exchange pleasantries for a bit, he looks up on his computer, gives out an estimate of the price of the car (which didn't add up to our research), and then excuses himself. I don't remember the reason he gave, maybe getting the keys to the car or to talk to the manager about the price, I don't know, but he left us there at his desk. So we sit there, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, and at 30 minutes, with our tempers getting really high on just sitting there waiting and doing nothing, my mom said the magic words that she needed to go to the bathroom. What was significant about this is my mom is wheelchair bound, and needs an electric chair to get around. She can transfer from chair to chair, but can't walk any distances. We also have instructed her that if she feels she may need to go to the bathroom at a point far into the future, she needed to tell us because there was no guarantee that there would be a handicap bathroom for her to get to immediately and we had been burned in the past a few times of there being no handicap available bathroom and she needed to go at that moment. So, with our frustration, and the now pressing issue that we needed to find a bathroom for my mother, we began packing up to leave. As we were walking out the front door, the sales clerk miraculously appeared at that time, asking us in a panic where we were going. We said we were leaving and he tried a couple times to get us back to the desk. As he was talking to us, the rest of us not talking to him helped my mom into the car since it's not a simple matter of getting both her and the electric wheelchair into the car (since she transfers to the passenger seat and we load the electric wheelchair into the trunk of the van with an electric lift). After we shook off the employee, complaining about how disrespected we felt on waiting, and how we thought since we were heavily leaning on buying a Hyundai going in, but since we now had to leave to find an appropriate restroom for my mom, we were leaving and not coming back. The sales clerk left, practically sprinting, and we all got into our van. My dad put it in reverse and was pulling out of the parking lot when the manager sprinted out of the store and grabbed the driver side window frame and pleaded with us to get out and back into the store. My dad said no, and the manager tried to haggle, even offering $5000 off the listed price for the car if we were to go back inside and close on the deal. My dad said we had wasted enough time already, and we having a pressing issue we need to attend. He also said, point blank at the manager that he thought we were going to be walking out of that dealership with a Hyundai, but after the disrespect we had on waiting such a long time, he was sure we'd never buy a Hyundai again. My dad then starts driving the car and the manager, still holding onto the car runs along side for a bit, pleading, before finally letting go as we left the lot and drove away down the street. And true to our word, we never looked back. A few days later, we bought a new 2015 Nissan Leaf which I still have and it's in very good shape. I haven't been into a gas station at all since buying the leaf, which I probably would have if Hyundai didn't try to pressure us. I can only imagine, the manager walking in and all the sales associates trying to figure out, what went wrong with their pressure strategy.

The next time I buy a car I’m going to wear your t-shirt to the dealership!

Not a trend; not a habit. It's SOP :-) Thanks for your always informative videos, Steve.

There's a whole thing about the psychology of how car dealerships work, and that travel aspect is a huge portion of it when it's in play. The first thing they do is try to play up to your values. Your values? Yeah, your values. You see, your values are a part of a magical table called your beliefs and once you have the beliefs table standing, it's incredibly hard to tear it down, even if you remove all the values. In a car transaction it would look like this: 1) We can get you $2500 for your trade-in. 2) We can knock $2000 off the list price. 3) We can finance it for 0%. Then when you get there they play the "higher authority gambit" on you and say they have to confirm the price with their sales manager. Then they whittle away at your trade-in value, and then they'll say they were mistaken on the financing but they can get you a great APR. You have now had all of your values, that created your belief that you were getting a great deal, destroyed and you likely still believe you are getting a great deal because you've already committed by travelling(and the further the more you're committed), considering a trade-in, and even considering purchasing in general. People have this horrific need to *appear* to be consistent to others, and if you're buying a car you likely already stated that you're interested in buying a car so if you suddenly start backing out, your own brain will tell you that you're being inconsistent and you'll start moving toward the purchase again. There's far more to it than all that but it's something many people need to learn. Of course, once they learn about how beliefs work then they might start examining *all* of their beliefs and how many of their values have truly been removed without that belief falling. I'll allow the reader to decide how that applies to their own lives.

I live in Boston. Two years ago I negotiated a great price on a car at Reedman Toll Chevy in Pennsylvania. Got all the paperwork via EM and spoke to the salesman numerous times for two days. Rented a car and drove down and bought it. They never tried to change the negotiated price. The salesman was fantastic.

This reminds me of how my dad bought cars. He would negotiate, and put a briefcase on the desk and open it showing it was full of cash. When the sales rep would inevitably go to the manager to "get approval" for the sale, then come back with a number my dad didn't like, my dad slammed the case shut, and started walking. He'd only make it a few steps before they begged him to come back. He always got the number he wanted. Of course, you can't buy cars like that these days. If you try to buy a car with cash now, they'll report you to the FBI. Not a very friendly way to treat your customers.

Steve, What a heart warming story. Twenty five or so years ago, I bought car a from a dealership where the GM was a friend. My wife was with me and he worked on the heart strings as we talked/bargained/dickered. In the process, he mentioned that he had children to support and that I could not expect him to make cost adjustments that would interfere with the dealership remaining viable. We talked a bit more and settled on a price, My wife was a bit concerned and asked me if I was being a bit harsh and unreasonable. What a help she was being? HE was not paying attention because so far as he was concerned, we had settled on a price and he was focused on the paper work. A few seconds passed and I asked my wife if she thought I was being unjust and whether she thought I should increase the amount we were willing to pay. There was no response from my GM friend for about three seconds, Then he stopped writing, looked up with significantly enlarged eyes, and cut lose with a huge guffaw. I do not believe that he had ever had someone offer more money on a deal so that he could feed his children. In my trying to get a deal on a car, I think that most sales folk at auto dealer shops are more than able to look out for their own interests. I don't know what the statistics are but it would be interesting to know what percentage of deals leave the dealership with a loss.

A dealer texted my daughter and she asked about a specific car. He gave her a price I thought was too high but she wanted to pay it. We drive to the dealership and they insisted it was a mistake and they couldn't honor it. We're only talking a $500 difference here. I told them we weren't buying from someone without integrity. After a lot of back and forth they still wouldn't honor it and she got a much better deal at the next place.

Hi Steve, I used to sell cars at one time in my life. I left the business as I did not like to mislead people or con people. When I left I had friends who would call me and ask for advise. Here is what I told them. 1. go to your local bank and get a automobile loan at a certain dollar amount. (This keeps you on budget and you know what your payment will truly be) 2. Find several cars that are in your budget including tax and license. When you go into the dealership only negotiate on the price of the car including tax and license. When you reach a number tell the salesman this: "You have one chance to take this to your manger, this is a car deal. Please do not wast my time." If he comes back with anything else, read the offer, stand up and say thank you. Then walk out the door. I have helped over 100 people buy cars this way and I have bought numerous cars. When I do this I have always received a call withing 5 minutes of walking out the door.

Great post. I have only bought one car new from a dealership in my 25 plus years of buying cars. I have tried to buy a few gone in with the add and they say no we don't have that and different bull they pull. The one new car I bought I beat the dealership up enough on the price I got a call from my insurance company to make sure it was the right price on the paper work.

I got the deal advertised ! Walked in With the ad in hand, said "I want this truck and I'm writing you a check." Took about an hour !! Folsom Lake Chevy.. A Colorado Extra Cab with the Tow Package. April 2021.

For the first time in my life I got a price from the dealer. It was attractive. When I got there, they told me they had made a mistake, BUT would you believe it? It was a couple of hundred lower! The first really "good" experience I have had. I'm 75 so I have more than a few experiences!

I used to work with a guy that the local car dealerships banned. He would order a vehicle and when it came in, if it was not perfect he would not accept it. He was a perfectionist and he could spot a blemish in the paint at 40 paces in a whiteout. At one point at; one dealer he did it 5 times, it was highly customized and it was difficult for them to move and they had 5 of the same color with exact same options. They told him to go to another dealership. Then when it came in he was upset the drivers side door opener on the inside was chrome but the passenger side was black. He felt it was a mistake at the factory; they had to show him every vehicle in the lot to prove they were all that way. He once bought a top of the line snow thrower, so new the dealer didn't even have one on display. The dealer was a friend and I told, dude I am so sorry you are about to be tested by the perfectionist customer. Before he ever got it, he was ordering spare parts for it, to include all the decal labels. They were spending hours trying to get part numbers, prices all for a new snow thrower that he had not even got yet. He drove them nuts trying to research parts that did not yet have part number pricing and prices even assigned to them yet.

I had the very same thing happen.. almost the exact circumstance. Picked up my phone and let the sales guy know I was recording the process for a you tube channel.. things changed very quickly. :)

When we bought our house in 1989, we got to the closing and I brought up a problem. The lawn work had not been done as is required by the standard sales agreement. They offered me $50 for the inconvenience. I told them no because I didn't own a lawnmower nor hedge clippers. There were shocked faces all around. My real estate agent took the $50 and she and her husband were there that day doing the lawn work. The seller was lucky, I was ready to walk out and sue them for breach of contract.

"what does the car dealer add to the equation"? Time, money, frustration, anger, and mistrust.

My father in law was negotiating on a truck. Had everything set up, financing ready, to his knowledge, paperwork was gtg, shows up at the appointed time, pretty much same story - no truck, can't give that price, etc. He walked out and bought a different truck from another dealer down the road. Still has that truck ten years later.

I had a similar experience with a dealer for a truck I was looking at. When I drove 2 hours to get to the dealer and they pulled the “salesman didn’t have the authority “ spiel on me. I used the “then you will be talking to the state attorney general’s office about bait and switch.” I got the truck at the original agreed to price. The next 20 years buying used vehicles from private buyers.

We called it "Bait and Switch" when I was a kid. Giant headline with price. Tiny, tiny ( usually a just a straight line by the time printing was run) fine print talking about what's advertised is for display purposes only. How about a bait and switch for the very last model of the run before the new body style? I was 16. Local Ford Dealer had the very last 1st Gen (1990) Escort GT. Fuglyest color combo they carried. Excrement Brown/beige 2 tone with Beige interior. $9899. advertised price. Might not seem like much but to a High School kid making $5.50 an hour, might as well have Corvette prices. They ran the paperwork and came back with a total of $13k+. Claimed Tax, Title, Interest and Tag. Back then, you could only finance 4 years. We walked. Funny how I'm 48 now and kinda wish I could have gotten it. The Dealership kept that car until they closed in '92. I learned then how to deal with Stealerships. I ended up with a '90 Ranger XLT my Dad negotiated from another Dealer him and his family got all their cars from, while I was at work. I wanted an S-10 but he was loyal to the Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Dealer. Payment was $250 month. The S-10 I wanted wouldn't have even been $200. How do I know you ask? 3 years later I finally got my S-10. One step up from the stripped down model I wanted and it was $225. THAT Dealership is the only one I have ever seen where what's on the Window is what you pay. No haggling. No surprises at signing. You deal with ONE Person from start to finish. No Sales Manager. No Finance Manager. No Contract Manager. No "Price" Manager.

I've actually been asked to LEAVE two dealerships for making reasonable offers...backed up by printed internet prices from other dealers in the region. This was on a relatively unpopular model with a stick shift that had been sitting for months.

It's even worse when your brother is the salesman and your wife is a pushover.

When buying a used car it's so much easier for me to buy off an individual. All I have to pay (besides price negotiated and inspection by an independent mechanic) is state tax. No dealership fee, no transportation fee, or a bunch of other hidden fees.

I just want to say thanks. The next time I buy a car I will definitely go to the School of Lehto’s Law for a good week. Going through all these posts so that I have an edge during the negotiations. Thanks for all you do. I have shared several of your posts with people on Facebook that are dealing with problems that you have covered.

I have no problem being impolite to people. Kind of known for being brutally honest without regard to how it will leave the person feeling.

You have raised the bar (pun intended) for RU-vid influencers." Bravo to you, and your counselee.

A few decades ago a buddy of mine went to the big city and test drove a new Ford Ranger, with a V6 and graphics. They couldn't make a deal. He ended up going to a small town Ford dealership with a sale going on. He ended up ordering a Ranger with the same options. Once the information was typed in, low and behold there was one in the big city and they could have it there that afternoon. He paid a little more than 2/3rds of the big city price and drove the same one home that he test drove in the big city.

I had a similar experience at a very large local dealership 4 years ago. Saw an ad with the price and vin listed, called and they said "The car was available." "Sure come in." Got there and they said "that car was no longer on the lot, let us show you another car, same model different vin.". Of course the car was $4,000 more. I was retiring the following year and I had a budget to stick to. I told the salesman how much i could afford monthly at least 5 times but he kept trying to get me to pay the higher price.They kept me there for 4 hours. They wouldn't give me the price i wanted for the model I wanted. They tried to get me to take a lower model for the price I wanted. Then they 'gently convinced' me to take the model I wanted, home for a day to try it out. I was tired and needed the car for work. I brought it back the next day and told them, no thanks, goodby. They were "shocked" that I walked away from the deal. I went to another dealership in a different town told them which model and the price I was able and willing to pay and was able to get the same model and the price I wanted which took me all of 60 minutes to complete the deal. When you are willing to walk away, you often get the best deal possible.

Is a car, another dealer will have one, just leave

Here's one for you, I bought a 2009 Chrysler 300 from a used car lot 5 hours away from me over the internet and a 3rd party paid for it through e-mail. The deal went very smooth and I picked up my car Christmas eve in 2018. After I picked up the car I went to my sister's house to show her the car she paid for. Ended up staying with her for 6 days. It was Scarborough Auto in Scarborough Ontario. Have been driving it since, it also cam with a 1 year power train warrantee.

When I bought my first new car I had to ask for a phone book because I was about to call the district attorney to complain about a bait and switch deal. They reassessed the deal and the price dropped.

I had just the opposite happen when I purchased a new vehicle back in September. Found the one I wanted in Manistee, but called a dealership in Reed City (3 hours away from home) to see if I could purchase it there instead and with a trade-in. After a few emails back and forth with pricing and trade-in estimate (which I was good with considering it was an offer sight unseen), we did the deal. I showed up with check in hand, and after about 30 min, I was out the door driving 3 hours back home with my new vehicle. After that experience, I'd seriously consider driving back up there again if I was in the market to buy another vehicle. Definitely worth the drive! I know not every dealership is like this, but sometimes it's nice to acknowledge the ones that are above board.

Is being a car salesman a precursor to being a politician? Or is it just lawyers😂😜👍

I was bouncing around the internet one night and came up with a GT350 at list. All of the other ones I had seen were going for $5k-$10k over list, so I printed out the ad. Showed up at the dealership and they honored the price. Turns out they were asking for $7k over but the guy that did their internet ads just put down the MSRP. Got to give a thumbs up to LaFountaine for not giving me a run around.

Great story Steve! Love it when the "Big Guys" get their head handed to them. By the way, what ever happened to that lawyer that filed the lawsuit in your Crazy Town episodes? I just finished re-watching them and was curious. Cheers, Steve

I'm in Washington. Couple years ago I was shopping for a Jeep Wrangler. Went through Costco Auto program and contacted a dealer. Then I heard about a dealership just outside Boise, Idaho that was doing about 5% below invoice on Wranglers. Contacted him, gave him a list of what I was looking for (none available in the configuration, so had to order), he gave me a price. Contacted the local dealer to give them an opportunity to come down on their price - nope. Went to Idaho and saved over $2000 on my vehicle. But one important thing - I got the pricing in writing and we both signed on the deal before ordering. After my F150 was totaled and I decided to get a Gladiator - I went straight to the dealership in Idaho.

I went to buy a new Chevy Malibu. Found the one I wanted and told them the payment could not be more than $250 per month. The salesman said no problem and walked out. 15 minutes later he came back with the contract that stated my payment would be $450. I said, "What's this?" We went back and forth and he got back up, said he would go back to the manager to see what he could do but felt sure that he could get it at $250. Needless to say that did not happen. It dropped to $400, then $350, $300. Each time he told me that it would be $250 when he returned. I had now been at the dealership for over 2 hours. He came back one more time and said he could not get it any lower that $255. That was the last straw, I got up, glared at him and walked out. During this time, It had started raining cat and dogs and the showroom was filled with potential buyers. As I opened the door to walk out of the building, I turned to all the customers and yelled, "THIS PLACE IS A RIP OFF. THEY JUST SPENT TWO HOURS LYING TO ME . GO BUY FROM SOMEONE ELSE!" This was on a Saturday. Monday morning I got a call from the salesman and this is what he said, "Mr. Hogan, I have great news for you. I got your financing down to $250. I replied, Mr. (forgot his name), I bought a Jaguar XJ6 yesterday and just love the car.

Fortunately not all dealers are like this. I negotiated with a western PA Kia/Honda dealership online (I'm in NE WI) for a used Pilot. Best experience ever in purchasing a car. Price was good, didn't change, and was ready when I got there.

Interesting how this "you can't call and ask the price" thing happens with both car dealerships and hospitals. I'm not saying the free market can solve all the problems with our healthcare system, but it seems an awful lot like the government is more interested in protecting car dealerships and hospitals than they are in utilizing the benefits of the free market system.

Went to a dealer to purchase a $24k car that was pretty popular at that time, so very little discounting by anyone. I told the salesman that I was going to do either one of two things 1) Pay off the car completely OR 2) put $12k down and finance the rest depending upon the dealers ability to beat the %5 I could get from my bank (this was 20 years ago or so). When we went to the sales office, the sales person went to the finance mgr came back sat down with a folded piece of paper. Upon opening the paper, I saw three numbers $12k down $220 / 60 months. He then asked me if I could afford these payments. I walked out. The sales manager came running after me saying "please don't go! This is only the start! We could do better!". I never stopped and never went back to that dealer. That terms they were offering never noted the % that their bank was offering (which was 8.0% BTW). So instead of telling me "We cannot match your interest rate that your bank offers you 5.0%, we suggest you use them for financing or do option 1) as you indicated - pay off the car". Instead they tried to con me with the old trick of shaming me "You can afford $220 a month, CAN'T YOU?"

I walked out of a dealership in Savannah Georgia one time because they wouldn’t come down on a price. I had only made it about 6 miles down the road before they called.

I bought a car on the other coast in 2005 and agreed on a price OUT THE DOOR. We even shook hands and he got out the buyers contract and I let him fill out part of the first page and acted like I wasn't paying attention. I already got the loan from my credit union and had a blank check in my hand. I thought he was gonna come over that desk when I filled it out for the agreed amount.

The one and only time I've had a car negotiation go this bad was in 2006, trying to buy a new 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata. Yes, those years are right, this dealer still had about a dozen new MSMs (04 and 05) despite the '06 NC being practically on their doorstep. It was grade-A four-square bullshit. When they brought out another garbage offer with a cheap plastic bow on the paper and we rejected it, it was the salesman who started yelling and stomping away first. We walked out of the dealer (and away from the deal altogether), though they did literally chase us into the parking lot in the process.

I was in the process of leasing a vehicle and it was taking a LONG time (as it does), when I told the salesman that I had to leave to pick up my son from school. The salesman went into panic mode! He did NOT believe me and started doing everything possible to get me to stay and finalize the deal. He lowered the price considerably and said that he could speed up the process. But I really needed to leave to pick up my son. So I did. Later I went back to finish the deal and all of the great offers that came when I said I had to leave vanished. But I insisted that the salesman honor his promises and I finally won. It was a revelatory experience and something I have used in every car deal since!

It's a Groundhog Day miracle. 🤣

2018 new Mustang purchased from Beyer Ford, Morristown, NJ. Straight forward negotiations with Eddie V. Very happy with the experience. NO NONSENSE.Will buy from Eddie again.

Been there, drove ~3 hours to buy the car, advertised at ~6k, it was worth about that KBB, showed up the story changed. Show up, you have this car adverted here:: show him the printout:: Him "yup, its a great little commuter, been using it as my daily driver." After some back ant forth banter, and some softball but pointed questions, while we were following the SP to the car at this point, I look at my friend, he looks at me, we both let out a quick sigh, while shaking our heads no. We both came to the same conclusion, this SP knew less about the car then I did, but far less then my friend who at this point had rebuilt ~5 of the power-trains used in this car. So upon visual inspection, cams had a slight weep, and the turbo was clearly leaking oil, I have to thank the SP using it as his daily at lest preventing them from hiding the oily intake boot off the inner-cooler. Upon Test drive, my friend who drove it (I couldn't drive manual at the time), the turbo is mostly blown, reaffirming that it is the source of the oily inner-cooler boot. After test drive, small amount of oily build up in tailpipe(again turbo), conclude wheel bearings/struts/transmission are good for now. My friend an I both tell the SP that the turbo is blown, he denies, we point out all the fresh oil that didn't exist when we started the test drive, he still denies. Whatever my friend and I can pull and rebuild the turbo in an afternoon at a leisurely pace, but is a mark against sale value, not a deal breaker. Eventually SP shows back up with something saying ~10K out the door >"BS I have your online add at 6K printed out here Vin, this adress and all, just like your employee over there said on the phone 3 hours ago, who also confirmed the price." He made up some excuse about "Oh!, that is our sister dealership's add we cant do that, best we can do is ~9,500" >"The sister dealership that lists this same address, and name?" Him ". . . ." >"Well thanks for wasting my time," turned and walked away. May have even left some of my tire rubber pulling away. Arguably the only thing accomplished that day was wasting ~7.5 hours, ~$40 gas and buying my friend and I an expensive milk shake from a chain not available near my town that day.

On two different auto purchase occasions I've used your walk away advice when the dealer refused to honor a deal and it works. On both occasions I was called within 10 minutes and told they would honor the price.

@2:05 & 9:34 - 20 years ago a Dealership tried that excuse with an weekly add for a 4×4, after it ran in a magazine for an entire month. I called to verify the ad and that it was in stock. After driving two hours they claimed it was a mistake and that price was actually for a 20 year old 4×4 hidden in the back of the lot. Same excuse was given to the state's attorney general when I asked them to investigate. 11:38 I stopped buying cars at dealerships entirely after that.

You are so right, salesman and dealers will use all kinds of tricks to wear people down. The oldest one in the book is the "wait here, let me go talk to my manager" which they will do in the course of a sale, and they frequently will throw in the downgrade to "meet what you want to pay" crap. My father, in 1984 special ordered (mostly to get a bench front seat) a new LTD. This was the "little" LTD on the Fairmont front suspension (much better car however) and not the large model. Price was agreed on purchase contract signed, etc. Dad got a Teller Check from the Credit Union for that exact amount. When the car finally arrived, they called and told him it was in and that they had misfigured the price and it was ELEVEN DOLLARS more than the contract price!!!!!!!! Can you believe they were trying to gouge over $11? He ended up getting the car for the contract price.

Should never have told the dealer they drove 3 hours to get there. Dealer knows they'll be reluctant to leave.

When looking for a vehicle for my daughter, she had a specific model and colors that she wanted. It was an in demand vehicle, so they were scarce. After going to look at a couple that were supposedly in stock, I found one 3 hours away. I talked to the internet salesman, told him to give me a deal to make me want to drive 6 hours round trip, and he did. It was almost a thousand dollars less than the local deals so we went. It ended up having tint, a bumper protector, and some other thing for about $500. I wanted tint and was interested in the bumper protector, so I got them for about $300 which was reasonable. I still saved money, didn't buy anything in the finance office, but the finance manager would not accept my pre approval letter from my credit union since it was on a holiday and he couldn't verify it, so I did their financing with plans to refinance it later. Then he went on vacation the next week and didn't process the paperwork, which was great since I was able to just finance it at my credit union and save more money.

"The wife is invested in this" - Good...tell her she's on her own...

Liked the Borders reference - was a manager in the downtown AA location a few years before they bit the dust. Borders had the great misfortune for originally jumping into on line sales with fulfillment by some unknown company that starts with an "A"... . They eventually retook it, but nothing like having your biggest competitor knowing exactly what your customers were looking for... The other issue was the pitfall created by trying to physically carry a broad selection of titles - which the vast majority won't pay to be on the shelf. The reason why you'll see tables of the latest NYT's bestsellers stacked high, is that the bookstore will recoup the cost of the books by returning them to the publisher in a timely manner. Hence you could have a huge (if temporary) inventory of recent releases and not pay for inventory if returned within 45 days (or whatever the window was). Unfortunately, the "average" (non-best seller) title would sit on the shelf for 180 days before being sold, meaning there was no opportunity for the bookstore to get a credit and cost of stagnant inventory was huge cost of business. Last, Borders was not afraid to position their flagship stores on some pricey real estate. Sure the Watertown location in Chicago was well over $1M per year and the downtown AA store was right behind at $986k per year (mid 2000's). Borders was the ultimate example on customer "showrooming" - stopping at the physical store to check out the merchandise and walking out to order it for a couple of bucks less from Amazon. And the customers who did that would also be the same ones to complain that "real" bookstores didn't have coffee shops in them (not realizing the 80% margin of the Charbucks franchise kept the lights on).

You should coin the term "Going Lehto" it sounds great. BE SAFE

Last year, boyfriend and I went to a dealership to look at a Roush. Went to the office, talked numbers, BF didn't hear what he wanted to hear so decided to walk. Half way across the lot I whispered "Wait for it. Wait for it..." Boom! Out comes salesman, BF gets what he wants and drives away with a Roush.

The sooner Car Dealerships and their Henchmen go away, the better.

I know how you dislike campers and RVs but I had a similar situation with a salesman not over price but equipment that I was purchasing, namely a load distribution and sway control hitch. Papers were signed it was mine went out and they were putting the cheapest crap hitch you could buy on it. I stopped the mechanic and told him he’ll no. I told him which hitch was supposed to be on it and he gets the sales manager who came out and said there was a misunderstanding that the hitch I wanted was 300.00 dollars more and they didn’t have it in stock. Back and forth we went I looked on line their website had it in stock and pickup today which really pissed me off. Considering the sales manager said it would take three days to have it FedEx delivered. I then remembered I had a text message from the salesman that listed everything that was included for the price. I went into the sales manager’s office and showed him the text message. A few minutes later the hitch was on my new camper. I told the mechanic that put it on that I needed to get the same type account they had with FedEx, fifteen minute delivery account. He laughed because he knew WTH they were doing

I went into a dealership the Friday before Memorial day to look at a 2016 GMC Canyon 4x4 with the 4.0L Diesel. Black, leather interior, nice but rather "Well used". But low mileage, so we settled on a price and we just needed to settle on a price for my trade in. I told them I wanted $10K for my Subaru Outback and they came back with an offer of $8K. I tried to get them to budge but they wouldn't. So I said, OK.... bring me my keys and I'll go home and put the Outback on Auto Trader and sell it outright. Then I'll come back with Cash if the trucks still available. Well, they then asked, if we could get you $10K for your Subaru, would you do the deal. And I said yes. And after about 20 minutes, I got my $10K. So you have to call there bluff. You have to be willing to walk away. As they will literally chase you out the door to keep you from leaving. It's almost like a going to the circus watching them bend over backwards to keep you in the building. ;o)

Steve - The last vehicle I purchase was in November 2013 Dodge 3500 pickup, that I use in my line of work in consulting ranchers and farmers; prior to buying the pickup I had talked to my account, who told me I would have to pay the IRS a lot of money or I could buy a new pickup. For some reason, the dealer knew I was in a bind and would not negotiate on the price.

The best deceptive car sale was in the movie Fargo, watch it and you’ll see how it’s done professionally. Great movie by the way. The original movie, not the made for tv one.

Many years ago my parents were shopping for a new Oldsmobile wagon (remember Olds"?). My brother was sitting with the Peeps when the salesman he gave them the price. My brother pipes up saying "for that price we could get a swimming pool". I grew up with a nice large 20"x40", 26,000 gallon built in pool, and a rather cramped "74 Dodge Dart Sport. Totally worth it.

As far as car dealerships going away, I could see as self driving cars become more of a thing that we'll move away from car ownership period. Biggest hurdles are the tech, the law, and our current emotional attachments to the concept of car ownership. Assuming those could be overcome, a manufacturer getting into the taxi/"ride share" business would be mostly a win all around. Self driving cars acting as taxis could be far cheaper to the customer since they wouldn't have the labor cost associated with traditional services. Additionally, since I assume the barrier for widespread adoption would be very high for the tech from a safety standpoint, once it took off it would likely make sense for the companies to either self insure or use a specialty insurer so they aren't subsidizing the insurance costs of more dangerous human drivers so there with be less insurance costs to pass through. The benefits for the manufacturers would be greater economies of scale from reducing the need for a diverse range of vehicles along with the ability to generate revenue the entire life of the vehicle instead of just once when sold. Cars as a service instead of car ownership, much like how many software companies are moving. It could be expected that it would be better for the environment. Fewer cars on the road and likely all electric would reduce pollution. There's the issue of course that electric just kicks the problem down the line to the power plant, but at least we can hope that electric self driving vehicles will drive more efficiently that humans. Also concerning the environment, the process of producing vehicles creates pollution, so a model where we would likely see the same vehicles in service longer could help there. As far as what the experience for the everyday person would be, you'd probably have some monthly subscription guaranteeing so many hours and miles, have a set of standard pick up and drop off times like for your workday commute or your drive to church so it can be waiting on you along with the option for unscheduled trips. The companies would need hubs where the vehicles could go to charge and receive any needed cleaning and maintenance. Electric vehicles require less maintenance, so costs there shouldn't be too high. As long as the interiors were designed with the ease of cleaning in mind then that shouldn't be an issue. Ideally the manufacturer would design the parts with a plug and play mentality to reduce down time and speed repairs. Pull what's broken, plug in a good one, send the broken one to be refurbished, and put the car back in the fleet. Anyway, just a path I could see us going down for better or worse. Side effect would be they personal car ownership would become too expensive for the average person, pushing more people into it. But, you know, would've been nice if I could've been kicked back and relaxing during that 4 hour trip the other day instead of driving.

I had a guy that worked for me that had a car dealers license. He bought and fixed up and resold older cars as his side hustle. I had an old Volvo with 260K on it. I found a 1.5 year old car (Chevy Monte Carlo Z34) with 8K on the clock in a used car lot I liked. He said he knew the owner and could probably get a better deal than I could. We agreed his fee would be to buy my Volvo at wholesale. He pulled up the next day at my house with the Chevy on his tow truck. I paid 5K less than their asking price on the tag. I wrote the guy a check for the car minus the agreed Volvo price. He fixed an exhaust manifold leak and flipped the Volvo a week later and made a couple of thousand on it so he was happy. So much easier to deal with car dealers if you don't have to go see them. This guys other side hustle was to buy a larger work truck every 6 months with nothing but a a cab and frame using employee pricing. He would build a work truck bed with tool boxes etc an as soon as 6 months were up he would sell it for a profit.