Carbonated water gives sourdough better oven spring? | Foodgeek Baking 

Very interesting, but not surprising. I would expect that the flour would provide so many nucleation sites for the carbonated water that it would instantly lose all its CO2. I don't think kneaded vs. no-knead would make any difference in CO2 retention. Btw, I completely agree about the crust. Go hard, all the way! The flavor is unbeatable. Plus, if the crust is too hard for my kids to eat then I get to eat theirs too. Win-win.

Interesting. This is the first I've heard of 2 stage baking. I'll have to check it out. Love your videos!

Thanks for testing this method for hydration. I requested it about a month ago and maybe others were curious about how carbonated water would impact the sour dough.

May I recommend a video idea. To my surprise, there is no content on RU-vid on freezing partially baked bread. It takes the same amount of time to make 2 or 6 loaves and so making big batches makes total sense for me. How long should the initial bake be if you plan on freezes the loaf? How do you freeze for maximum freshness? Best practice for 2nd bake? What oven temperature? What is the final bread result when comparing to a baked loaf that was not frozen?

Hey Sune! Another great experiment can be to bake the dough at different pH values at the end of bulk fermentation!

Interesting video. Amazing shirt and clip!

Another great video Sune. I had a feeling what the outcome would be.. Maybe I will try the same with smaller mass.

Saw that movie in the theaters, been using that line ever since, such a great line!

Exactly what i suspected. Keep up with your good work. I like your videos!

You are so amazing with four hands! Make experiment faster! Joke aside, this was a very good experiment. Thanks it helps keeping the science is the bread making!

Sune, can you do an experiment without final shaping and see what the differences are? I just form a ball straight after bulk fermentation without resting then to a proofing basket and it seems the result is similar. Curious to see your results!

Thanks

I would be doing no knead because I would assume that kneading will pop the co2 bubbles

Hey Huckleberry. Nice Hummingbird you got there!

Cool wallet and KeyCase 😎

It makes total sense. The bubbles don’t make into the final product.

Fabulous shirt 💙

Foodgeek Sune my I ask what will you make this weekend hi 👋 from 🇨🇦 #YSW respect back to you 🙏

Have you done an experiment on freezing par cooked bread? If not this would make for a good experiment.

The longer proofing time for the CO² water dough must have been the pH which prevented the LAB feeding and thus there was less sugar in the dough.

Did you take the ph of the doughs when you finished bulk? Sure seems like your shaping seems to have flattened it out a bit right? So I would have expected about the same loaf.

Would have been interesting to check PH of each dough right after initial mix. (minerals in flour likely neutralized the soda(immediate release of CO2 may have 'gagged the east a little and stalled the bulk proof), wouldn't use much of total minerals)

6:08 Yes Sune, I think it's safe to say yeast activity is impeded when the pH of its environment is outside of optimal range, but since you didn't check the pH of the mixed dough, we don't really know if that's the case here. Yeast (S. cerevisiae, specifically) multiplies most efficiently at a pH higher than 5.0, with 5.5 to 6.0 being optimal. Your carbonated water was nearly 5.0, and I assume the mixed dough would have fallen somewhere above that value, but we shouldn't assume, we should check. I wonder if all the hype over carbonated water originates from people accustomed to using hard water with a pH above 8, which is much farther from optimal range than carbonated water? I predicted the *carbonated water* dough would take longer to ferment simply because it *has no dissolved oxygen* in it when your pour it into the flour. Tap water on the other hand, has plenty of dissolved oxygen (and gains even more when it passes through your faucet's aerator), which yeast requires to reproduce during aerobic fermentation. It is *aerobic* fermentation that leavens the dough. Although it's true that yeast produces CO2 anaerobically as well, the overall activity is drastically slower. So to compare the two doughs, we have one made with oxygen in the water, and one without. The only oxygen available to the carbonated water dough comes from the pockets of air contained in the dry flour, and the surrounding air in your kitchen. When you're mixing up your dough, rest assured the carbonated water went flat, however at this point, it would still be saturated with dissolved CO2, making it difficult to dissolve the oxygen during mixing. I bet if you tested a third dough in this experiment, one in which you boiled your tap water and allowed to cool undisturbed, you would find your bulk fermentation time to fall between the carbonated water dough and the control. Boil your tap water in a canning jar, and seal it hot, and allow to cool. It will contain no dissolved gases whatsoever to begin with. Oxygen introduced through pouring and mixing will dissolve much easier than if pre-saturated with CO2, however I'm reluctant to think that it's possible to achieve the same level of dissolved oxygen that your aerated tap water has. How about a test that addresses concerns with the chlorination of tap water? Perhaps your tap water isn't suitable for the experiment though- does it have a slight chlorinated odour? Some people boil their tap water prior to use to drive off the chlorine, others let it sit in a container for 24 hours, some rely on filtering with activated carbon. I'm curious to compare doughs made with the following chlorinated tap water treatments (how many bannetons do you have, Sune? 😜): 1. Control: Pure, distilled tap water, maximally aerated (aquarium air-pump and submerged air stone running 24 hours). 2. Straight from faucet (noticeable, hopefully obvious, chlorinated odour). 3. Aged tap water (sits 24 hours, uncovered) 4. Aerated (24 hours with an air stone) 5. Boiled (boil for 5 minutes when feeding your starter- will be cool when starter is ready- odour should be gone) 6. Boiled and simply aerated via agitation (same as above, but shaken for 15 seconds when cool as if you were making a cocktail) 7. Boiled and "properly" aerated (same as #5, but use air stone while it cools until use) 8. Filtered with activated carbon A number of interesting comparisons can be made here regarding bulk fermentation. Which is worse, #2 (chlorinated) or #5, which has been stripped of dissolved oxygen? Which is better, #1 (pure, no nutrients, but oxygen rich) or #4 (containing unknown dissolved minerals some of which may be micronutrients for yeast, and some toxic). How does #6 compare with the rest? Does a quick, easy shake provide similar results to #7, or even #4? Using air stones is rather impractical for most people I would think, so hopefully #6 is adequate to provide enough oxygen for a healthy bulk fermentation.

what you have in carbonated water generally unless you are carbonating your own water is hard water , water with a lot more dissolved minerals then tap water or most bottled water. I wonder if the increased mineral content of the water had an effect on the "sourness" of the bread and also with the slowness of the fermentation?

Yes.. I would opt for a no-knead test...

Love these, thank you.. A few requests and questions, though I realize I'm asking favors. You use your hands to incorporate all ingredients. Some time I'd like to see what your hands look like after that step. Is much dough sticking to your fingers? Just curious. Also, it appears to me that your dough increases volume at least a little in the basket, comparing what I see at the start and end of your cold fermentation. Is that true? About how much volume increase are you getting during the cold fermentation, if any? I realize the baskets don't have volume gradation marks but a ballpark would be of interest to me. Finally, you go directly from bulk fermentation and shaping into the basket, and immediately into the fridge. Some teachers let the dough ferment in the basket for 30 minutes to as much as two hours, before putting the dough and basket into the fridge. Some use the poke test to decide when to put the dough into the fridge. Is there another experiment here: varying time in the basket before going into the fridge? Please forgive me if I misunderstood anything. Thank you so much! Your teaching, passion, and systematic approach are much appreciated.

Another experiment. Does the size of the bulking vessel matter assuming it is big enough to contain the dough once risen?

Mmmmm, huckleberries!

I think there could be a difference with a yeasted (non sour) dough made using the same techniques. In commercial baking it's not uncommon to add a bit of acid (ascorbic) to the recipe I think to simulate the texture you get from the acids produced by the bacteria in the sour starter.

Foodgeek Sune you need to do a control experiment with baked goods like Muffins,pancakes,cakes,let you have said in your report I think working with carbonated water 💧 you need to look what is in the recipe and working with backer yeast you video is straight forward and on the money 💰 bye 👋 from 🇨🇦 #YSW respect back to you Sune 🙏

Hi Sune can you do an experiment with sodiumcarbonate (bikarbonat) or is it called bacingsoda and see if that works?

Magic ingredient is time, thats it :)

shouldn't it be fluffier if you knead it more? Just like if you shake up a soda, it fizzes more

Least surprising experiment results ever.

I would like to see scalding vs your control dough with the recipe you used in this video as well as discard with 0.5-1g of yeast but same process of your sourdough, try to figure out that is it possible to bake this way so we home baker will no longer worry about discard.

Do orange juice next. 🍊

If it freezes in fridge, will that kill it? Ever baked a frozen dough?

Do you have a sourdough recipe with everything you have learned from all your experiments?

This was a very interesting experiment, as always. Watching it raised two questions for me, unrelated to this topic or to each other. First, how important is it to both pre-shape and shape? The pre-shaped loaf always looks much tidier than it does after the final shape. Would it make much of a difference if you shaped only once? Second, how could I bake my loaves so they didn’t get quite as dark as you prefer yours to be? Would lowering the oven temp accomplish this? Or would I need to reduce the baking time?

Don’t know if someone already asked/suggested but here goes. I recently read a pie dough recipe using Vodka rather than water. The article detailed scientifically why the crust turns out more flakey. How about Vodka in sourdough?

A key for me is that the carbonated bread was not sour. For those who don't enjoy the sour taste, this could really help.

Is that a Tylerbaster on the wall to the left of you?

You might try using beer.

It's too bad but not surprising. If you have the time, would not hurt to run some variation tests, just to rule out any possible advantage. I've tried the carbonated water in pancake batter and found that the last cakes are not as fluffy as the first few. That leads me to think that, if there is any advantage to it in a yeast bread recipe, a quicker ferment is going to be best. If that is the case though, I think most of us will not find it useful, since we desire the flavor that comes with a longer ferment. I can see maybe using it in some other types of quick breads, as it would provide a rise similar to beer bread but there would be no gain in flavor, so....

Do you have a video that shows which tools you use?

Fun video! Do you have a video using beer instead of water in your sourdough bread?

How about replacing water in you're bread? Whey from milk kefir or from cheese or yaourt? I've been doing this recently to use everything from milk. I've not done control test like you but that might be interesting to see what difference you see.

Would you link to that ph meter you use, please?

Very interesting. What's the significance of all the guitars in the background?

I can't see any difference in the crumb, but I would say the one made with carbonated water looked larger, both before and after the bake.

hello Sune :) You mean carbonated water bread was less sour then regular/control bread? my sourdough bread is to sour i think. is there a way to reduce sourness? ps. I'm using your recipe and methods, getting good/fantastic oven spring 98% of the time :)

Would not bicarbonate of soda or baking soda propose to do the same thing?. BTW?, Several times during the baking process I always spray a mist of water into the oven directly which of course converts to steam….Do you not do that?.

Hello! When I was little my mom took all day making this soup with prunes and cabbage rolls and she called it beana loosa foola ( I'm sure I'm butchering the spelling but the phonetics stand) , she said it meant artificial birdies. Do you have any idea what the recipe is? I'm pretty sure it was danish since my grandpa was danish but it was so good and I can't find it anywhere. Many thanks for your help

No link for the PH meter ☹

Sune the trouble with wallets like the ridge is there is no little pocket to hold your guitar picks…

The carbonated sample looked like it rose more which is all u could hopefully expect infact i thought that was all this experiment was about...but you said nothing

I tried carbonated water in a pizza dough, zero difference

I'd like to see baking a bread in a pan on a fire.

baking soda.

That carbonated water is no daisy at all.