The more direct answer for Federer’s earlier start of swing (even on a slower ball) is that Fed has always had smoother acceleration of his stroke than the rest of the tour. Start earlier = more time = smoother acceleration to strike point. It’s part of what makes that ‘liquid whip’ feel for which he is famous. Everybody else’s stroke looks more jerky by comparison, even if the step by step stroke mechanics look perfect. As an engineer, smoother acceleration always results in lower torques on the machine, thus better control of the machine.
Your breakdown is cold blooded 😢😂 Federer perfected his own unique style which I believe was tributary to the past champions as well. I don't see no top ATP whipping the shtick with a eastern grip.... please ejumacate
But also, trying his "smooth acceleration" can be bad as well. If he is too early, the kinetic chain of the stroke is broken and power is greatly reduced
@@melchaig.n.5238 smooth acceleration does not mean slow acceleration or faster, just smooth, it should be copied by most players, and it reduces injury. Alcaraz has already had injuries at his young career because he tries to muscle every shot.
Roger's technique seems better. Alaraz' is more academic. Roger doesn't contract even one muscle that is not needed to to hit the ball. He's soooo relaxed. In any sport, this is what you want to achieve.
I LOOOOOOVE this analysis! Taking loads of mental notes. It’s also incredible to think about the prep work that went into this e.g. timing the time it takes for the ball to get to them. Truly world class coaching, Ryan!
Well you better check your notes, because so much of this is quite misguided! I'll start with his claim about the hand being lower around the pocket which isn't even clearly true here since Carlos' very lowest hand position is nearly at the bottom of his pocket as well...... but the Key Issue here is the hand position to enter the slot here is about the height of the contact, with the hand's relationship to that contact height....and has almost nothing to do with a player's technique for slot entry!! This height will be very close to the same as contact for driving the ball or well below contact for more topspin like Nadal often does.... Total confusion here about Federer's superior method,,,, "the Swivel" to slot entry as he used to do more like Carlos, then improved it over the years. That higher left hand you mention is a compensation for the weaker slot entry from Carlos... not something good unless you have the same type of issue trying to force the slot entry.... Fed doesn't need that compensation with his improved "Swivel Entry" thus he can keep his left arm and hand more in the swing plane where it supports the level driving swing.
Also misleading is your claims about swinging across. Across helps to be more consistent with net clearance and that is why ALL Tour players do it that way....They are both swinging across here as all quality Fhs do, but Carlos as a higher contact here as well as more low to high for more topspin instead of Fed hitting much more drive across with his Fh. Try not to confuse more up as being less across. you can hit up and across..... along with thru for that matter if you understand this stuff... Good stuff on the grips though....
Nice comparison! I think you sort of minimize what happens after the ball is gone. I think Federer’s swing allows him to be ready for the next ball faster, giving him a bit more time to analyze how his opponent hits, and hence helping him predict where the next shot will be.
The difference between the forehands can be summarized in one word "grip". And it's the most important factor in a person's game and defines his/hers skill set. Swing path and arm position are all defined by how closed the racket head is at contact. And that's the real difference between the next gen and Fed's modern forehands. Never heard one coach say this. They all teach one technique but after using every grip, and having to change my complete skillset each time, that's my conclusion.
Youre absolutely correct. I’ve played both swing styles and the difference swing paths are just a result of the different grips. If you want to optimize and maximize power in a lag type swing, your swing is going to either look like federers or alcaraz’s depending on if youre using eastern or semi-western. Im currently debating whether i want to stay eastern or switch to semi-western; they both have pros and cons. I do think that the power semi-western gives on high passing balls is just too good to pass up though.
.. the racquet face is not closed at contact - whichever grip is used the face is the same whether it's Carlos, Federer or anyone else. Racquet face should be perpendicular just before contact - the ball impact (below geometric centre) causes the racquet to twist down on some shots giving a slightly closed angle though this is not deliberate. High-speed video can show racquet wobble depending on how well the ball has been centered on the string bed. Due to this impact after-effect some coaches mistakenly teach their students to deliberately close the racquet face on contact resulting in a net shot. Frame by frame analysis = vertical racquet in milliseconds before ball contact (high quality lab footage shows how much the ball deforms and the trampoline effect of the strings which in some cases stretch beyond the frame)
Federer is a gifted player . Durung his prime playing days , he took the ball early when he saw opportunities to make opponents immidiately in an defensive mode . He would dictate the rally or immidiately finishied it off with that one early shot
Awesome analysis! Once you broke it down I can see how you might incorporate both. Against an opponent that hits harder it appears Federer techniques might work better. Against someone where you might have time to unload and go for broke on a shot then the other swing which seems a little more "loopier"might work better. Of course what they have similar, low to high, head still, hip rotation etc. are paramount. I appreciate you man and your thoughtful analysis always presented in an "upbeat" way that fires me up get out there to incorporate and hopefully perfect. You a good un!
Feds forehand is just another level....he takes it earlier....can hit flat or win top spin/high bouncing/ then he can create ridiculous angles because because of his grip/which he can change depending on whom he plays/...he can absorb and redirect pace /that's because of the grip he uses....and we haven't even started on the fact that he is a strategic genius
I hit both eastern and semi-western. If my opponent has a great serve and I need to use more of a blocking forehand return, I use the eastern, but if Im more aggressive with a weaker serve or playing on clay, I use semi-western, or something between the two. In my opinion, Federer’s Eastern grip and forehand technique is more efficient, but not always more effective. Efficiency=less effort and more longevity in the sport.
For me it’s the complete opposite I found with a semi I can swing as fast as I can without really worrying much of the ball going out the only problem was that with that amount of topspin I’m getting I lose much more pace than when I use my eastern but with my eastern I have to really watch how I swing the ball before cuz the tendency of it going out was much higher cuz I didn’t have the same amount of topspin I was getting in my semi but the pace was much more effective on my eastern and I could hit rockets to my opponent. I ultimately got to the hang of my eastern cuz it honestly felt more natural to me. I can hit low balls and mid balls with really good pace and still be able to generate a decent amount of topspin. In short if you’re looking for pace and not really worried about topspin as much eastern is for u and the opposite for the semi if you want mainly topspin but are willing to give up pace for it then yeah it’s for u.
Focus over an extended period of time seems to be my major challenge when I am working on correcting the mechanics of forehand. It happened easier for my backhand maybe because there is much less bad muscle memory on it.
I saw a great tip from Tomaz (Feel Tennis Instruction channel): after you hit the ball, you should see the ball disappear from your field of view and when you finally do look up, you will see the ball pass the service line on the way to the other side of the net. In other words, if you don’t see the ball disappear, you need to change some thing.
Coming now in 2022 to learn how to get my techniques better and this was the best video I have ever seen! Thank you so much for this and the backhand ones.
type of racquet, its balance and weight is a fact that determines the technical aspects. Fed uses a very heavy one and it is altering his racquet head speed. Besides your anatomical structure, the racquet you use formulates the technique you choose.
i think a factor is also the upper body in relation to the hips. if u take a look at 4:14 alcaraz belly pretty much doesnt lean in an direction its just straight up from the hips whereas federer belly and the area above his right hip is bend and not in a straight line from hip to head. i think that causes some differences in the rest of their swing. if the body is straight compared to the hips and so on i believe its easier to enable the arm to swing free. its pretty much what you said but as i said i think a factor why it is like that is federer kinked (if thahts the right word) hip/belley area. i hope its about clear what i am meaning.
The thing that this analysis emphasizes for me is how much of a hand eye genius Federer was/is to compete with and usually dominate the plethora of lower risk higher spin semi western players in his era, esp latterly. He had to take the ball early to take time away from his opponent as his technique forced him to hit flatter balls!
This is great stuff Ryan! Please do more of these with different strokes of these super heroes and compare them. It's too bad that there is not enough footage of the guys and girls from the old days to do this with. Anyhow, Cheers and Happy New Year! MM
I think the biggest difference is there is one swing path on the left. And one the right, the swing path is divided into two by the lag. Maybe that’s why you can see Roger often change his mind before he hits the ball
Yooo. Thanka for the forehand explan swinging away from the body. I never heard it that way and im trying to straighten my swing. I realize thanks to you that I'm too close. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. I'm gonna try it today and see how it works out
FELICITACIONES por el minucioso análisis, sobre todo del forehand de Roger!! Es lo que buscaba, a qué distancia llevaba su brazo en el backswing Federer hacia atrás y su codo!!! Muchas gracias!!!
Si quieres mejorar de verdad tu derecha viendo a Roger, te recomiendo que veas análisis de su tiro desde el 2001 al 2008. Su derecha cambió a partir del 2009. Hay artículos que lo atestiguan, son varios parámetros los que cambió: su derecha se hizo más compacta porque acortó su bucle, su swing. Pueden ser varias las razones por las que su derecha cambió; cambió de raqueta(cabeza más grande), menos exigencia física y muscular, Tony Roche, Higueras en esa época lo entrenaron...Para derechas a media pista la derecha del vídeo de Roger te puede servir, pero para derechas desde el fondo de la pista me quedo con la vieja derecha del Maestro. Soy un loco de Federer 😭😭😭
The follow through for Federer is more across purely because of the shot he wanted to play on that particular shot. There are a lot of forehands where Federer finishes like Alcaraz.
BecaUSE Carlo`s favorite player of all time was ROger, and I believe while he grew up he tried to copy(learn) his forehand. It`s almost identical from my point of view, with little diferences like you said, but when you`re a kid, most of the time(in your childhood) what you do is copy copy copy, mimic mimic mimic. This comes from an ex professional tennis player who turned into an Actor over the years. I copied every Federers moves when I was a child. I find a video with a young Carlos Alcaraz saying that his idol is Roger. It turned out so well for him :) Dreams do really come true!!!
@@DidikSugiyanto he has increasingly framed his forehand in recent years, his Wimbledon loss against Hurkacz and how he completely lost his forehand was a really sorry sight to see
Hats off to you 👏 🙌 👍 ❤️ 😍 thank you so much for your priceless videos I wish you were here when I was 7 years old, I am 38 and I have a Alcaraz forehand mechanic, although Federer had always been my Idol!
Federer was asked in an interview what grip he uses, he said he doesn’t know. I believe also the the grip doesn’t matter. We should start teaching where and how the racquet approaches contact and at contact and build the grip from there. Ping is probably the best way to learn this. We should also say to be off the ground at impact to produce a more effective split step. Enjoyed the video.
Yeah, the grip doesn't matter as long as you know what grip works for each of your shots and how to find it. But, it's nice to know if you ever need a good way to compare or explain it to other people! I feel like it's a shame when they teach the grip first and the point of contact after, personally I would teach the basic mechanics of how the grip affects the racquet head/ arm position and let them try different combinations out.
Ryan, Here's something you forgot - if you copy Roger you may develop tennis elbow on the inside, so becarefull, but in time it will go away if you ice it after each work-out - have patience it will come. Love your analysis - best one I watched - See U coach Miguel
Cool video! Though I believe the reason why Federer is dropping his racket sooner has nothing to do with gravity...but more with the fact that Federer is receiving a much deeper ball, therefore the time he has to coil and uncoil is reduced quite a bit..
In Spanish. Son importantes las técnicas para mejorar los golpes , desplazamientos y prevenir lesiones,, pero si esto no se acompaña con ejercicios de concentración, de visualización de la cancha (court) tanto de tu lado y principalmente del otro lado, se cae en frustración por no obtener resultados acorde a lo entrenado. En todos los deportes, gana y perdura mas su estrategia; el que está mas concentrado.
Yes! So many of these tennis videos ignore movement. A good swing and contact will rarely happen without it. The problem I think is even mild attention to movement weight transfer and balance requires some movement work, leg work, squats lunges stretches jump rope etc. Yet half the audience for these instructors want to think of tennis like golf: just stand there.
a really good effort, especially at clarifying the variables that could cause the differences in the swing in these specific examples. Almost all of the changes noted, in position of lag and swing pathway, relate back to the initial observations of the grip and wrist positions. You can't change one part of the machine without affecting the rest. The remark about gravity assisted lowering of racquet is a common error in the non biomechanics qualified coaching world. Any minimal effects of gravity on such a light and aerodynamic object as is a racquet have to be measured along with any eccentric action in the shoulder girdle. There is more effect on the arm if able to be totally passive and not decelerating - which is tough for many to do. More interesting for aspiring coaches is finding the common principles between the two, such as torso direction relative to contact point; grip position relative to type of lever in the lag, and most importantly position and time the head is stable relative to contact point.
Many trainers advise having the arm away from the body during preparation, to promote the circular movement from low to high. Alcaraz has a higher racket, but it goes less low than Federer's, and finishes above his head. So even if the racket is not visible at the end of the gesture, the low-high amplitude remains preserved compared to Alcaraz, at the cost of less effort. Holding the racket high, and having to finish above the left shoulder (for a right-hander) is I find restrictive for the shoulder. Another such player is Fognini. His entire game is oriented towards the least effort.
Wow, I think this is one of the best detailed videos I've ever seen! I love detail and sir you brought it! Thank you and please do more! When you have a chance can you dissect the David Nalbandian's amazing Backhand. His backhand was a thing of beauty and one of the most deadly backhands ever in the game! He could put the ball anywhere on the court and made it look so easy! Andre Agassi once said that Nalbandian's backhand was hard to read, because he would hold it for so long before he flicked it cross court or down the line. Just watch this video and in the first minute wow! He hits a down the line backhand so effortlessly, and then cross court! This was the 2007 Madrid Masters. Nalbandian is the only player to have ever beaten the top 3 players in the world in the same tournament. His road to the tournament was, he beat 1st rd. Clement, 2nd Rd.. Berdych, 3rd Rd. Del Potro, QTRs. Nadal, Semi's, Djokovic, in the Final. Federer! Nalbandian is the greatest ever not to win a Major. This Madrid Masters's in 2007, was so sweet for him and for his fans, he proved when he was on, he could beat anyone! David Nalbandian is the greatest player never to win a Grand Slam, but in 2005 he won the ATP Tour Finals vs the top 8 players in the world, beating Roger Federer in the finals in a 5 set thriller. Ryan if you can do a Nalbandian Backhand step by step detail, it would be awesome! BTW his forehand was not bad either! Here is the link for the 2007 Master's cup, ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nWkXdaUNSx0.html , Link to the 2005 ATP Finals ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-l3spAGXS_Wc.html, and Nalbandian Backhand Magic, ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6XBdNRP2J9k.html
Brilliant! Seems like the Eastern allows for greater velocity striking the ball head on, whereas that velocity on a semiwestern is lost on spin, so to generate more forward speed the semi westerner would have to rotate the body with more rotational velocity, correct? Can you do an analysis between one of today's champions and one of the champions from the good old days, for example, Federer vs Borg? Can you do Jimmy Connors? Does Connors change grips going between forehand and backhand? I have a hard time telling, but I think not much. Certainly MacEnroe I think doesn't. Sorry, I'm old school player at 62 years old.
Awesome comparison!!! Ryan is already an expert in knowing what his followers enjoy!! 😄 What is not so noticiable from behind in Alcaraz fh is how distinctly out in front seems to be his impact compared to other players. Perhaps only like Federer. It's a trait that draws attention. Next comes Jannick Sinner please.
@@formulaicsounds And straight arm forehands, especially the ones that have no bend, are pretty rare, like probably as rare as one handed backhand player is not more. Rafa and Roger are the only players that I can think off with a fully extended straight arm forehand. Alcaraz is very similar as well but he has a slight bend.
Anybody struggling with consistency should try a semi western grip. The baked-in higher trajectory and spin is just the gift that keeps on giving. On clay especially, it's a no-brainer.
Great video. Want to confirm. A 40+ Adult 3.5 male can take a look at Alcaraz 's lag forehand and see if it feels comfortable. **If** it does feel good, he can go ahead and copy this Alcaraz compact ATP style lag forehand?
Except for the grip, Alcatraz’s forehand technic is very close to Sampras. Elbow leads in the back swing, top of racket points almost to the net, swings racket to ball after the ball bounces and racket finishes high up. Sampras is the same.
Wonderful breakdown. The only thing you’re missing is the wrist snap vs forearm finish of fed. Big difference here. Please study and break that part down as you so eloquently do.
Great analysis.My coach teached me a forehand in different way: without lag,dropping racket head down,witout using wrist.and he sayed i should stay very close to ball.so my forehand was very weak.
Makes me wonder how good your coaches forehand was. However the lag is always going to be caused by inertia. I dont get why people keep talking about lag. Literally everyone does it because of the laws of physics 🤷🏽♂️
@@dadsfreetimeclassicgaming1220 my coach had good technique,he played even some ITF Events.but he sayed to me,than i am not able to play with modern technique and should not learn from pro.before i played with him i had modern technique ,but i made small misstackes that coases errors
There is to many explanations about Federer,Nadal, Alcaraz,sinner... forehand but everyone has his on style (of course they have common points)but the most important thing is "the touch" when they have at the moment of contact. You can see Sock and Federer have totally different style but touch and feeling with the wrist they all have perfect . There are a lot of players who have great technique but they don't have good feeling and they can miss a lot of easy balls.
I dont think u can compare them since the coming balls are bouncing differently, the speed and the distance it bounces are the factors how you generate your strokes.
Great comparison. With racket drop about the same distance below the ball and the incoming ball about the same height, I wonder why Federer’s ball is only slightly above the net while Carlos’s has much more net clearance. Thought? 🙏👍🎾
Is it fair to say that swing path by Carlos produces more top spin but lesser drive?I have experimented with both grip changes and swing paths. When my racket is freshly strung I tend to use semi western grip whereas when string is worn out I switch to eastern grip
Fantastic video. Please make more just like this. It is a treasure trove of information and is the reason why you are the #1 tennis channel to see in the world.
