haha thanks for the mention Scotty, yep my budget has been blown way out and your pretty spot on with the LS costs ect, we will definitely have a friendly race soon :)
Cant believe you had to explain why its called Supermang. Too many haters. This has been one of the best most honest engine build series and the host has done an amazing job. Best to ignore the trolls. LS swaps are getting pretty boring now and everyone does the same thing over and over. Keep up the good work. The L67 is a frustrating blow to mod as you reach its limits real quick. Ugrade an ecotec, or swap the L67 for a Whipple.
I’ve been building my manual L67 VS for years. I’m particularly proud of my full VX suspension (brakes, LSD, trailing arms and toe control links). Got sidetracked with a JS Vectra big block (3.2) upgrade. 👍🏻🤗
I have really enjoyed the supermang build. As far as I am concerned it's been a great outcome. Going ten's is great but it comes with the hassle of andra upgrades etc and further $$$$. I think you have hit the target on this one. Well done.
I'm a Ford man but a truly love Holdens too. I can remember back in teens I had a VK Calais. That was a really nice car! Keep up the great vids! Cheers
Love that you kept it supercharged and played around with it like that, that's why I religiously watch supermang videos, and I'd love to see you push it as far as you can supercharged before going turbo/stroked. Maybe use a different blower etc.
I would change the pully for a slightly larger one like you said as sometimes less is more! I would also do what you suggested and run less water in the ice tank...Just drain and refill it between runs so that the water is as cold as possible...Pull the LF Headlight out for shits and giggles and maybe ditch the air filter just for racing? See what happens? Have some fun with it before you whack a turbo on the old girl like you plan to... She will crack on then Scotty.
I'm real glad you did this weird little build, not another LS or Barra swap. Commodores aren't really my thing, but this was different and interesting enough to grab and keep my attention all the way through.
Scottie, remember the fundamentals, an engine is simply a pump. Pre intercooled the blower was able to maintain a constant 10 psi but as soon as you put tubing and inter cooler the blower couldn't provide the 10 psi right through the rev range, my thinking is it has a restricted inlet system to the blower. And don't forget cool air is more dense than hot air and takes less energy to compress than hot air, this may explain the variation in boost pressure with a restricted inlet system. Mate a big fat throttle body, massive ducting, huge big fat front mount intercooler with a tiny pulley and send it 😁
Scotty, one thing you might have to think about is the velocity flow of the air in the intercooler itself. Your non IC runs are a flat ~10psi, yes, but with the intercooler, you peak at 12 and drop to 11. You're still ahead of the non IC run. As engine speed increases, the air is spending less time in the intercooler and subsequently less time in the cooler, being cooled. As you change up and engine speed drops, the intake charge also slows and has more time to cool again. But that could also be the lower airflow related to the lower engine speed. I'm not sure you want to condemn it over ~1psi of boost loss, especially with how it's keeping the intake temps down for engine longevity and safety. If that intercooler is dropping intake temp from 110 to 60 degrees, that's worth it for detonation protection alone, regardless of boost gained. But I'd also reckon trying a slightly larger pulley and see what your loss of peak boost is against your sustained boost/intake temp is. But something else does seem off.
I remember the first episode with Supermang and you brought it to compete with another RU-vidr who brought a EB Falcon (same era car) and you where going to compete with it which never happened. It was also going to be budget turbo vs budget supercharger. You had the supercharger option.
Well explained Scotty!💪 Just for reference, L67 bottom end with arp rod bolts and a cam has gone 750+ and in the 9's @140mph. Ecotec (L36) has gone 575 with only a cam, ran out of fuel line size but it would of kept going. (This is all at the wheels) If your goal is only 450 on the L67 bottom end it will smash that easily 👌 As always, welcome to hit me up for a chat or advice anytime 👌💪
Hey Scotty, I have a couple of ideas on this (maybe rookie ideas so bear with me) With lower inlet temps, boost measurement (restriction) becomes greater with higher air density. Therefore, the engine still receives practically the same volume of air as the cause of the restriction has not changed. In this case, I think the supercharger itself is the restriction as when you spin the blower faster, the swept volume of the rotor is greater per cylinder cycle and creates less opportunity for airspace to fill (101 volumetric efficiency I guess) I think you should find a good gain with spinning the blower slower as the restriction will be less (trying to cram less volume of air into space in the supercharger already occupied by the rotor), and allowing the denser air to do its work. If I haven't ballsed something up, the colder you can get the inlet air, you can continue to spin the charger slower for the same volume of air (air density) Could another set of injectors be installed higher up the intake to allow the fuel to draw further heat from the charge air into the cylinder? Could an alternative fuel be an option eg. Methanol or similar with a faster / low temp flame front? I'm ready for the "you have no idea" comments... 😂 In regards to the 5k difference... I know LS is common but for 5k more you're deep into the 11s, I would suspect 5k may still get you into the 11s with the V6 but it isn't as straightforward either... I'm a Ford man but I'm glad you're doing something a bit different! Just wish you could change the sound of the V6 though...
This is your journey Scotty, we're just along for the ride. Sometimes we're going to be right, sometimes we're going to be wrong. It's up to you to steer the ship where you think makes the most sense. Doesn't mean that we won't be yelling at the computer screen and saying WTF!, but ultimately this is your journey and we are the passengers along for the ride. We are going to watch regardless because it is not about how much hp you make or how fast you go. It is about being on the journey with you and being entertained. As you rightly say it is a RU-vid channel and often people lose sight of that. If we wanted to watch ultimate builds where people pee in your pocket and make made up and wild claims about hp and edit out their mistakes there are oodles of them on RU-vid. What makes you channel unique is that you're real, and don't need to prove anything to us only to yourself.
This is a tricky one! Gale Banks (Banks performance) has awesome content about intake temps and air temp density's to HP Loss. well worth a look! and to me is the BEST on YT... keep up the awesome work!
You're absolutely right about running it out of its efficiency range (I'm also a big fan of Richards work) is there any chance of finding an Eaton M112 and bolting it on, to make some super mang mangs
I hated how much you paid for the car but I think you really nailed it in time, the prices are stupid now and you can't get one for less than you paid. Great video guys, you were spot on and had me agreeing the entire time. LS and barra are great swaps for easy power but those are getting way to expensive. The other thing people don't take into account is all the extras that go along with the swap, it is not as simple as chuck the engine in and off you go. You need trans, diff, fuel lines, computers, wiring, and so much more to get it going. A $5k engine swap can easily reach $20k plus before you even start it for the first time.
I know it would be difficult to do, but I’d put in test points across the heat exchanger and see how much pressure you’re loosing across it at high rpm (when engine is using max amount of air). Might need to get a different heat exchanger in or put two in parallel to compensate for pressure loss
And add in say u wanna go a t400 instead of the 4l60 it'll need to built so there's another 3/4k or even a t56 is 5k+ just for a box 😳 Gets me motivated to finish my turbo v6 vn (still rocking the s1 buick) and maybe possibly take on the supermang one day 🤣 It's just a standard rebuild with arp head studs and a gt3582r turbo on a tony'z turbo garage turbo kit through a t5, aiming for around 400bhp 🤞 It's around 95% finished but that last 5% is kicking my butt, just need to sort out my oil feed (The one I had was wrong) a breather setup, a tune, and an exhaust and she'll be good to race 👌 It was gonna be a street car but engineering in Vic is a joke, looking at around 4k+ to go through it. So kinda wanna go full race car, looking at a pulsar g42 1450 to slap on the front of a built eco , glide, tubs, etc. Goal of 1000bhp to start with and go for mid 8s 🤔👌 Would be cool to go 7s one day in v6 Commodore, wishful thinking I know and bloody expensive but it would be cool.
Nice vid Scotty, that blower looks like it could be healthier and is outside of its efficiency with that pulley. I don't mind what you do next but look forward to the stroker turbo. 😎
The L67 build is still cheaper than the Shane Warne ceramic bong I saw on ebay during the week check that out!!! Top vid Scotty always good to know the price of stuff and things 👍🍻
Good series Scott Enjoying your thought process and the changes Very much looking forward to seeing the turbo updates which will probably see the most gains Oh and for the tank I’ve seen others use dry ice and glycol with a smaller tank to get cooler temps Just sharing stuff Sounds like the blower is suffering from cavitation Keep up what you do Scott you keep me sane while I’m at work for the week
Belt slip? With a 2.55 pulley you need to do the 8pk belt upgrade and you need to add a support pulley under the snout to increase belt wrap around the supercharger pulley. Would be good to see what sort of timing it's running, something doesn't seem right.
Have you thought about widening the intake and charger piping? My m90 is on a 304 and was also struggling to keep up with supply at high rpm, I ended up getting a 90mm throttlebody and routering out the Aly to equal around the same airflow as a 90mm throttle body, helped it keep up! I guess then the carnage problem will be all the piping to intercooler, unless you use the under charger mount one
I think the fact you fitted an L67 is what has interested me in this build. LS/Barra would be boring, despite being fast. The M90 is the car's biggest weakness currently, they're just heat pumps and not efficient enough. As I keep saying, I bet you're happy you bought when you did. 4k (And even then some people thought you overpaid)... I feel really sorry for anyone wanting to buy a new car/project car nowadays. So, once you turbo this thing, I want to see a head to head vs the Trolvo. I still know which car I think will be faster, but both being red, rear-wheel drive and turbo 6's is pretty cool.
Hey Scotty awesome videos. I would love to see twin charger.. Turbo into the supercharger. That will make the supercharger more efficient with boost and carry the boost further through the rpm range.. Similar to richos customs au falcon.. Superchargers loose efficiency at high rpm and most of the time becomea a restriction also at high rpm and that's when the turbo should show its true colors.. You should be able use the sane setup just a turbo and manifolds
You need to get rid if the little barrel intercooler if you work out the flow area of the tubes through it it's way smaller than your 3in pipes can flow a bigger one with enough flow area to match the cooler pipes will cool better and flow heaps more air you want air temp lower than mid 40 degrees and below the lower the better but after 45 odd degrees you are losing a lot of power
Scotty you are on the right track with your analysis, but might have the wrong conclusion. Before I go into an explanation, firstly congratulations on making the right call to look at the data. Data is bullshit proof and will tell you the truth whether you like it or not. The reason you are seeing a declining boost pressure is as you suspect an efficiency problem, but just maybe not the one you might think. As you well know as the revs increase, the engine requires proportionally more air (duhhh captain obvious - not factoring in Volumetric Efficiency changes). But as you rightly note the engine is not being supplied enough air to sustain filling the cylinders and then a constant additional 12psi of boost. BUT the problem may not be the blower. You are 100% correct in saying as boost increases so does the heat. I don't know how many time I have tried to preach that not all boost shown in the gauge PSIG (Pressure Shown In Gauge) is real boost, because expanded air will tell the gauge sensor that it has boost that isn't really there. But for some reason people have difficulty in wrapping their heads around the simple fact that hot air expands, and not all boost shown in the data logger is real boost. You may have "pressure" but not have air. So what is my theory? I think the W2A intercooler is where a large part of your flow restriction is. That is a cheap barrel cooler that was made in Chinese factory and core efficiency may not be the number 1 priority of the company that made it. You might go as far as saying they probably lack a bit of R&D when they "borrowed" the design. At best you are probably only looking at a sectional area of 100mm x 100mm of effective core area. If you compare that to say a typical 300mm x 100mm A2A intercooler, it only has 1/3 of the area to pass the air through. If you welded in a couple of sensors at both ends of the barrel piping you would be able to measure pressure drop across the cooler. I believe it is this high back pressure (pressure differential of the two) at the cooler that is causing efficiency problems at the blower (causing air to bypass the rotors and increase heat). If you think about it and use the 3" piping as the median area of flow (may not be the smallest sectional area). i.e. You have a point from which to work. 3" ID pipe has an area of 4560mm^2. If the core area is 100mm x 100mm that is 10,000mm^2, BUT you have a long aluminum core inside of the barrel so the "air" volume inside the barrel cooler may be less that half of that, so it may have a sectional area of somewhere around the 4560mm^2 of the 3" tube or even less. Now you might think well I have around the same area in the open parts of the barrel core as I do the 3" piping, but that doesn't factor in the immense drag trying to pass air across very tiny cross sectional cores. I don't know what you know about fluid dynamics, but air flows best in the centre of a round pipe, where it is least effected by the drag of the sides. The closer to the sides of the pipe the more the air slows down. The barrel cooler core is very small so the effects from the sides of the core is HUGE. To the point you may need 3 or 4 barrel coolers in parallel to flow the same amount of air without causing a lot of pressure drop. You mentioned the extra length of piping might cause a boost drop... Not really because boost doesn't work like that. Once the pipe is full, what air goes into the engine is replaced by fresh air into the pipe at the other end so the pipe will always see the same pressure. What you can get with longer pipes is a slight lag in boost response, and that is because air is elastic. Air is compressible (just like that air compressor in the corner) so when it sees a sudden increase in pressure air the air will push closer together and act like a big spring. Sorry about the long post but the first thing I would do is put sensors on the pipes to see what is going on there before making any other changes.
Great vid mate. Definitely gotta be onto something there with the supercharger not physically being able to provide enough air to feed the engine. Could be a combo of the cooler pipes being too big and the supercharger needing porting? At the moment, the boost is like throwing a sausage down a hallway.
For around 12grand for one of my built Engines, you could have a Single four barrel carby'd Holden 304/308 based Engine or a Small Block Chev naturally aspirated v8 combination in a factory 5.0L vn-vr will give you an 11second capable, car through a relatively quiet twin 2.5" exhaust to the rear bumper, on d.o.t tires, on 15x8rims with the stock 3.07:1 LSD borgwarner diff. No turbo, No blower, No nitrous.
@@danielstorer1826 yeah it's pretty wild, dream setup on the engine 👌 wanna build a similar one but with a g42 1450 turbo hanging off it and go hunting for low 8s 👌🤣
i think your on to some thing with over spinning the blower but i think you will find its more to do with air density due to the temps you are seeing now with saying that i wanna see what that ported blower will change power and temp wise but would also love to see what the m112 or m122 swap before the turbo to see what the difference is for the l67s here in aus either way will watch and am loving the content scotty have a great time playing with it
Hey Scotty, Maybe you could try a RAM Air Induction first, If it’s starving for air? (Even If you put a larger belt drive on later, it won’t hurt! 😂) Much enjoyed the show & from memory Cooper Bogetti approximated USD$20k for his LS to SN Mustang conversion. Kia Kaha, Grant from NZ.
I think you're probably right about spinning the blower too fast with diminishing returns. Non-centrifugal blowers are positive displacement pumps rather than turbomachinery so as a rule of thumb they're great for moving air but not building boost. The faster you spin it the more air you'll flow but less head of boost you'll make. So the smaller pulley (or bigger blower) would see a gain on the stroker motor but not on the 3800. Not sure if you'd bother putting the stroker motor in with the blower just to rip it all out again and turbo it though.
Scotty, port the blower an lower the boost a bit, i'm sure you can improve the blowers flow with some port work an free up some lost ponies...... either way keep up the great work love the different angle instead of the same old path.....
Intercooler effectiveness also depends on contact time: the faster the air that moves across it the shorter the contact time of the hot air to the cooling tubes and the warmer air discharge. Bigger intercooler means lower flux and cooler discharge.
Hey mate enjoying your videos.I was chasing some further info on Michael marks vs ss commodore turbo install under the guard.You did a write up in may 2016. Any info or pics would be appreciated if possible or who done the work. Cheers
Mace offer a cnc porting service for about $1600.00, for that they port out the LIM, the charger body and port the supercharger elbow by hand, from memory mace say this alone will drop the intake temp by about 40 deg, I'm about to do this myself just waiting on the snout upgrade from Yella Terra with a 71mm pully approx 14-15lbs boost (the factory snout apparently flexes under load with the smaller pully as you need to machine the front of the factory snout to fit the smaller pullys this machining weakens the snout)
Once again really enjoying the contents of the videos Scotty. I think from the theme common throughout this video is to be answerable to the small percentage of the comments section that just love pointing every tiny thing out that in reality doesn't mean a great deal to the outcome of the cars performance or even the tasks that are getting done like mods etc. I think in reality it's a big reason ive turned off 2 of my main social media accounts, everyone has an opinion which is great but so many "experts" who have not a great deal of (inferred) real world experience or just plain like to troll for LOLs🤷 or sick little pleasures 🤭 The video has been very informative and answered a few questions I've wondered about but just know that the majority of feedback I read on here is pretty sweet and constructive while the few "experts" can keep on letting everyone else know in caps lock that "NAH F**KN HELL SCOTTY YOU DONT DO IT LIKE THAT, MY COUSINS BEST MATES NEIGHBOUR...... DOES IT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO THAT YA KNOB BLAH BLAH BLAH....." hahahaha. Defensive rant of 90% of RU-vid auto channel hosts over 😂😂 Hope you and the crew keep up the great work mate and keep those build vids coming😀👍
Would love to see you try the mid range pulley with the 3.7 gears and torque locker it would be interesting to see if the intake temps come down and boost stays consistent
Please remember tuning and dyno costs too Scotty, it’s something that always seems get overlooked when mentioning build cost but always a cost the average Joe still has to pay for when modifying. Keep on keeping on with it and look forward to when the snail goes on and you can really stretch its legs…..
You may be getting belt slip, You did mention you had a coolant leak in last video. Its surprising how far coolant can travel when its blown around as a mist. Maybe try some of that belt grip spray you can spray on.
As far as air temps and air density, there's a direct connection with HP, the intake temps the colder the air the more power, i would wager, that the intercooler is doing its work, but the amount of air based on the piping is where the charger puller is over working, meaning its trying to suck air and push that air ,but cant keep up under load, you should change the diameter of the tubing going to the intake side of things and also check out gale banks in the USA , he has done so many things with air density mapping and directly into the intake side of things, so no point cooling the air if the intake side of things that air goes in hotter than the air outside, like you did with your own hands at the intake the piping was very hot, yet the piping coming back from the ice water was freezing, that's what i think is wrong with the set up, 63 c degrees air temp is hotter than the outside air, plus at the dyno cell, they have a massive fan to force air to cool everything to a point and at the drags you do not have massive cold air forced at the front of the engine?
Cost me 15,000 to get a forged ls1 built in the backyard by a mate on the cheap. 12,000 to buy a th400 then get built for 1500hp+ with transbrake, another 2500 for flex plate and billet torque converter, 3,000 for mace coilovers. Still need to get custom tailshaft, loom and few other bits and bobs to get it back on the road and dyno, hoping for 500rwhp+ n/a when i make it to the dyno but we shall see
The blower elbow and inlet are a massive restriction. Perhaps with the 2.55" pulley on it cant get enough air into the blower? Perhaps try porting the blower elbow or contacting brushworks for one of theirs and adding a bigger throttle body?
Was the fastest run also the smallest burnout? At that power level with those tyres you’d think a very quick squirt to warm them and clean the crap off would be plenty and help keep intake temps and heat soak to a minimum. Always enjoy the content🤙🏻
Agreed, i dislike the v6 commo with a passion and freely admit the LS is a damn good platform...but would rather watch someone struggle with a left field project than watch another LS swap. Keep the weird projects coming scotty.
The piping is huge, but the outlet/inlet and intercooler run 3" piping, for the flow of the supercharger, 2.5" would probably work a lot better for keeping the charger in efficiency?
17 minutes ~ I'm thinking your problem here is the intercooler core, heat exchanger. I must add, I'm out of my depth, but... I think you need a bigger core in it. Or, a whole different approach, like turbo + normal front-mount big air-air cooler. I think that cooler core is too small. Specifically, I think the air piping through it is too small. It needs more pipes, of a larger cross-section. More water pipes that are larger probably wouldn't do any harm either ~ But there's too few air pipes and they're too small. Resistance to flow builds at the square of air-speed, which is perfectly in line with what you're seeing in that pressure-drop. The air is trying to get through those little holes at 300 km/h ... and [shrug] Air is a viscous fluid, in the same way auto tranny fluid is... If you want to pump it somewhere fast, it helps a lot to give it bigger pipes. Now you are also facing a limit where you want to remove heat, and you want small pipes with lots of wall / surface area, but... with all the surface area in the world, you're still not going to get un-impeded flow at 300 (ish) km/h, through pipes like a drinking-straw or a Biro. The viscosity of the air will fight you.
Before you go turbo, could you adapt a larger blower to it? I picked up an Eaton M122 from a GT500 Mustang a couple years ago and landed it in Australia for less than $2250, unfortunately I sold it and later someone had used it on an AU Falcon and it returned some good results, at one point they saw over 20 PSI with it on the Falcon 4L SOHC. Also be interesting to see water/methanol injection used instead of the water to air intercooler
Hey Scotty did you ever get round to porting the supercharger like you said you would a while back? I don’t know if doing that would fix the power issue you discussed but I’m still curious about it & would like to see you do it.
" Blower can't keep up " There is a limit as to how small a pulley can be before it starts to slip. Given you have data logging, I'd put a toothed wheel on the upper pulley and track blower RPM vs engine RPM and see if the belt is slipping. Does your data logging have a ratio / math function where you can do the calculation? If not, dumping the data into Excel would work.
surely engineering would be easy with the L67 also, assuming it's kept street legal. wonder how the budget will compare with the 1UZ, the lexen will be a cool build to look forward to.
Would be interesting to do a price comparison to V6 Vengeance. But that was a rebuilt motor with rods and (cast) pistons, and you'd have to take into account inflation, and turbo/efi stuff is cheaper these days
I'm in NZ with a L67 VS Calais running a smaller XP or Stage 2 cam, minor head work, Ported Gen V blower with 85mm intake, 3.2" or 81mm blower pulley, AEM water/meth goes good. My 2c would be a modified blower and proper W2A setup for Supermang for us veiwers or go the turbo.. or do a twin charged Scotty I dare ya
