Sucks when it happens and I sure learned alot thought the process. UTG was super helpful and talked me off the ledge a couple of times haha. Hopefully these videos can same some people from the heart ache.
DD Speed Shop. I'm impressed at the work you do, I actually angry at Comp Cams since this happened. I don't think I'll ever use their products again because of the way they handled it.
@@Bloodbain88 ITS THE SIGN OF THE TIMES, quality from the past has spoiled us,we counted on quality ,cause in american made products,that's what you get and bought,i'm old,prior to 1975 every car made in america could be abused daily as long as you did not over rev it and changed the oil,now,you can't get parts to make it out of the stall,its not pitiful its criminal,tell everyone to buy quality now if they are building any thing that runs with oil in it,i'm retired from 47 years of building quality in my work,now its impossible with out real parts,i've experienced all of this just using wild cat parts on wheel bearings,installed three sets in my conversion van,they all failed within 4000 miles,now i had to go to pic n pull and get factory bearings from old trucks and cars,and they now have 130 k miles on pic and pull used parts,the factory has to buy or build the good stuff or suffer from warranty failures,think on that,its the sign of the times,you go with it,walk on
@@strattuner That's why I have a 1983 Chevy K30 truck with a 12 valve Cummins engine in it. I just don't have to worry about it. There are a few American companies still making quality products and I try to by from them whenever possible.
I read an article about cam/lifter failures, it stated that some American name brand companies were having lifters made by Chinese companies who were not properly heat treating lifters to the proper hardness. A soft lifter will fail. When you buy parts beware of Chinese Junk. The American companies who are doing this should be held accountable for selling inferior parts.
Thanks for explaining the math on the camshaft and lifter program... I did not know any of this before you said it.. it helps me understand the issues that Dan is going through the frustration and the time & $ .. cheer from Canada
Oooooh, so the lifter is supposed to be slightly offset when seated on the cam. Lol I always felt weird when I pulled my intake manifold and looked inside and saw it offset, like that doesn't look right 😅 but now I know it supposed to be like that
So my neighbor and I are about to break in probably the last flat tappet we'll ever build. A serious BB Chevy with a pretty serious cam in the 280 duration range. As with all of my flat tappet motors, as soon as that engine lights, I'll lift the valve covers and make sure the push rods are spinning. If any of them are stalling, we'll shut it down and find out why ... I am not going to shrapnel load an $8K short block. It ain't worth even the possibility 🙃 And just a note (I have no affiliation), we are using Rhodes lifters. Partly because this is a jet boat with wet exhaust and we are trying to stop water reversion at low engine speed, but also because all Rhodes lifters are still made in the USA by Johnson Controls with properly heat treated USA steel. Ain't cheap ($250+), but a scattered motor is more expensive. The other choices are Howards Direct Lube and Crower Cam Saver. Howards and Crower do not have the designed bleed down to reduce duration at lower engine speed, but they are the same lifter body metal.
nice before firing it up consider with intake off but valvetrain assembled , index the lifters on paper then hand rotate engine 20 rotations or so, one can verify the lifters are rotating before first startup
I just watched Dans video a few seconds before coming here. The problems are obvious. The question is, why are parts being made this way? Dan used a Comp cam. I think he bought the lifters at the same time, both from Summit Racing. Didn't you have a Comp cam where the journals were machined oversized, and wouldn't even fit in the block? I believe it was for the hemi in that '67 GTX.
@ Gerald Scott, are these new parts being manufactured in factories outside of the U.S. , or has the quality actually gotten that bad here in the U.S. ?
Why? Smfh... Not to "make everything political". But some things ARE. The answer to why is simple. Whenever incompetent politicians gain power and start raising taxes on business after saying "Derp make the wealthy pay their fair share derp." What happens is they DON'T. They simply pack up and move their manufacturing to another country that dosen't overly tax them, AND *they get cheap labor*. .The cheap labor offsets the cost of logistics, ending up with it being more profitable in the long run. The end result is (1) American jobs go overseas, (2) The products we buy are cheap as f. And (3) Americans get screwed but will keep voting for the idiots because they're stupid AF themselves. Hope that helps you understand "why".
In fact, these days, if the product says "Made in Mexico" then you have a decent product. . Also Taiwan and Japan... But "Made in China" will most likely be a pile of 💩
He said not all lifters from the same set could be bad. A lifter from the same set might have a crown. If it is used to test a lifter that is flat it will still rock. If it is used to test a lifter that has a crown it will rock twice as much. Better to use something that is surely flat.
Tony, your exactly right. The quality of the grinds along with the heat treatment that goes into the manufacturing process has become a problem. Even if you check the individual lifters as well as the taper on each lobe, you'll never be certain that the heat temper and the hardness of the components is there. I have personally built motors and checked all parameters, used moly on all lobes and lifter faces, primed the engine with zinc break-in oil. Fired the motor up and ran it the way you have told everyone in your videos. Guess what, out of twenty nine engines I have built in the past five years, two didn't pass the break in process. Roller Cams from now on. Spend the extra money, I tell everyone. Less heat, less resistance, free up some HP. Peace of mind, you can't put a price on less stress and reliability.
Thanks for the explanation of what happened to Dan’s engine. I’ve been running stock engines all my life, On the farm, in tractors and trucks and I have many classic cars and trucks. In almost 40 years I’ve never had trouble with a camshaft or lifters. Every type of flathead, small block V8’s, you name it, never a single problem. It seems absurd that something that has been manufactured successfully for a century can suddenly no longer be counted on for reliable service.
I had one of the mid 1970s Chevy 305 engines with the soft camshaft. Totally stock, bought new from GM. GM sold a bunch of them. They were probably the main cause of the lawsuits over Chevy engines in other divisions' cars.
At this point in time, a cam swap is a complete joke and isn't worth it anymore. Unless you got deep pockets and go roller(which are also having quality control issues) or can somehow magically find a perfect NOS cam and lifter set from 30+years ago without paying an arm and a leg for it. The good old days of swapping in an "RV" cam in you stock SBC or BBC and picking up 25+ easy HP are over. Honestly at this point a known good used cam someone pulled out years ago is a better choice, even if the lifters may have gotten mixed up you still have a better chance than using a new POS cam and lifter set.
I've successfully broken in 2 different flat tappet camshafts in the same engine in the last 6 months and there will be another next week... (Because I apparently enjoy trying out camshafts!) All I do is check for taper on the lobes, crown on JOHNSON / CROWER Cam saver lifters and I use driven break in oil which has high zinc/phosphorus & Low calcium which is very important! If your valve springs are over 120 PSI on the seat, or if you don't know what they are, you are looking for a disaster and if you do not get a visual of spinning lifters before you put the intake manifold on, you are again flirting With disaster.
@@Projects5309 at the end of the day, it's still ridiculous that you can't trust new parts. There is absolutely no good reason why you shouldn't be able to just grab a new cam and lifter set right out of the box, lube it up and shove it in without checking anything, its the manufacturers job to ensure quality parts get produced and sold, the end consumer should not have to be the QC man that should all be caught before the product even gets packaged. For decades thousands of people would blindly throw cam and lifter sets in all the time with an extremely high success rate, failures were alot lower than success. In today's age, even the pro's that have been assembling engines for decades are having trouble getting them to make it past the first 20 or so minutes of run time. And even if you bite the bullet and go roller, there have been alot of people experiencing lifter bleed down and in some cases having the roller on the lifter fail and scatter needle bearings all through the engine, so just because you choose a roller set up isn't 100% safe either. It's so hard to get decent useable parts anymore. Known good used parts are honestly the best choice now for people trying to build on budget.
@@briang4470 I get it, these companies have sold their souls to China in order to maximize their profits and quality with nearly everything has plummeted... It sucks but it's our reality. I see all of these budget build up RU-vid channels are using parts store brand lifters the vast majority of the time with more than a few sour outcomes. I know purchasing Iskendarian or Crower lifters (which are both Identical made by Johnson USA and cost $225 for 16) throws the budget aspect out the window which is the major theme for these channels...BUT unfortunately, using these parts store parts totally negates the budget after a failure. If you can't afford good parts, it's in everyone's best interest to maybe wait or do what you have to do to come up with the extra $ for quality parts.
@@Projects5309 yep, all these poor quality parts has really changed how I think out and plan all current and future projects/builds. Now I try to avoid ALL cam swaps like the plauge unless it's absolutely necessary. The last engine project I did, I actually reused the factory cam and lifters because I don't want to play camshaft roulette it's just not worth it. It's used to be that you would always opt to swap the cam if the pan or timing cover came off but now, I won't change the cam unless the one that's in it is already wiped out. If I ever come across a NOS cam and lifter set in the future I'm definitely going to try to snap it up for future cam swaps, I'm helping a buddy restore a 283 for an Impala and we're still in the teardown stage but really considering reusing the 60+ year old cam and lifter set because they are quiet and all the pushrods still spin and it would really suck to get the engine fully rebuilt and loose it all to a cheap Chinese cam or lifter, the originals survived 50+ years, what's another 50 lol.
Hey UT....I watch your channel for three reasons and I'm not much beyond the very basics but I also watch for entertainment (1) besides knowledge (2). In this video, when you showed the witness mark on the lifter the first thing you asked is what does that witness mark mean? And immediately I knew the lifter was not rotating .....BECAUSE OF YOU AND YOU TEACHING ME THAT.....some time ago. It was exciting for this senior citizen to get it right and right the first time. And that great feeling produced is the third reason I watch UTG. Thank you!
Hey Fireball,.....I also had same response to UT's "What does that witness mark mean" question, .... No lifter Rotation obviously, but Exactly why (in this specific case) is Key, as can have Several reasons....This witness mark is Exactly Symmetrical & Centered across lifter Face & can Only be caused by No cam lobe Taper as Good taper would generate an Offset, Non-centered lifter face witness Mark....I initially Missed this important Exact cause Clue as explained by UT during 1st viewing but am learned now !!.....Just putting this out there as someone else could have missed it.....
I have been subbed to Dan and you for years and yes you are both great channels. Yes, Chinesium strikes once again - planned obsolescence - who knows, but definitely zero quality control in the factories these parts are being built.
I have a 69 Ford 302 which I'm putting in a project vehicle and was going to replace the cam and lifters but after seeing Tony's and Dan's issues I am just going to change the timing chain and gears and call it good. It has been sitting on my engine cart for 30 years. The old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it definitely has new meaning.
PEOPLE GAVE A DAMN ABOUT their products reputations back 35 years ago,now everything is shipped from some butcher company 8 thousand miles away,and piss on you,they could care less,pay the money,buy the quality,build it in,slam the hood and forget about it,till oil change time comes,use american companies that make their own products and do their own clearance checking,people who have to do it right or go under,brand names isky crower a few,i want lifters out of the box,oil them coat the lobe,get on with it,I'LL PAY FOR THE QUALITY AND DO IT ONCE,and no i don't work for them,i've used over a hundred of their cam and lifters,over the last 47 years of doing what tony does,get dirty
Rebuilt a 3 liter mercruiser this summer ran good for 3 minutes then started running rough fought with it end up tearing back down cam lifters were destroyed all the metal went threw bearing and cylinders wrecking the hole rebuild
@@heaveymelt on getting parts for that build,i can't help you,i'm a master like tony is,only thing i ever did in the last 47 years with boats was engine exchange,didn't have to build them,just R&R,WHICH,just made me very happy,doing R&R from a technican point of view is never having to worry of the installation,you did't build it,just install it,the quality of parts right now,is a conspiracy,they are pushing people to buy the expensive stuff overseas and you will not buy quality at any price,TONY KNOWS THIS,your boat engine,to get rid of the grief,i'd put a new one in it,cause now there is no quality in aftermanrket,none i can see,unless you get a american company that builds in quality with a phone call down the road,and i'm serious,and i practice what i preach,i only want to do it once,this NARROWS DONE PARTS SELECTION REAL DAMN QUICK,NOW YOU KNOW,BUY QUALITY FROM PEOPLE WHO GIVE A DAMN,ROLL ON OR BOAT ON
100% agree with your “bad lifters after the year 2000” assertion. Saw it as it was happening at the parts store I worked at as a kid. I always just assumed the lifter failures were caused by moron customers… but it just kept happening even to the smart guys, and I started to catch on.
ARound 2000 all these fast ramp trendy cams were getting a lot of marketing in car mags too. Harvey Crane and Old man Iskendarian used to preach about "intensity factor" limits, even Vizard knew then. If ones using a steep ramp high rpm get a solid and premium springs.
I saw Dan's video, this is going to get worse in many things, not just engine parts. There is no pride in what many companies make these days. I think it is also a backdoor way to try and do away with IC engines.
I doubt this is an issue in factory parts. Although the bad cams in GMs past sould act as a reminder. There are very few engines being produced today that use cam in block technology. And those that do are using roller cams. Probably the last flat tappet cam engine produced in the US was the inline 4.0 used in the Jeeps. Cam issues with both the LS and the New Hemis do point out that there can be issues. But from the information I've seen this is more of a lubrication problem involving a different issues. Primarily high amounts of idling. Run anything without oil and it will fail. The SOHC & DOHC engines I've seen in production* use small roller cam followers that rest against a small hydraulic flash adjusters on one end. *both no longer in production.
@@mpetersen6 you sir are correct , flat tappet cams were the norm 30 yrs ago when billions of dollars were invested in them and they had to work and they did ! Everytime those days are gone roller is the only safe bet now
Stuff like this was rare in the '70s and 80s, if it did happen...you let everyone know. The lifter (flat-crown) problem has been a problem w Auto Parts stores for at least a decade, now. The cam lobe measuring was a good catch!
Another RU-vid channel just got through touring Comp Cams factory & they (Comp) were bragging on how advanced they were, what kind of high zoot, triple throwdown, high tech machines they got now, yet Tony gets oversized journals, Dan & others get bogus cams & garbage lifters. That's not even mentioning ignition boxes & bad dog high tech computer systems going after a little bit!
@@oldblueaccord2629 Chineseum my man! That's where the lifters come from. Now the camshafts, some here, some not. Whether the metal they use is Chineseum or USA is up for debate.
@@vincentenk4449 Johnsons are made here from what little I know, As far as Chinese your talking to someone that stopped buying Chinese products 20 years ago.
After having the same brand that Dan used, kill 2 cams back to back... I went roller and haven't installed another Flat tappet cam... I know roller is more expensive up from but it becomes a pay me now or later proposition.. not worth the gamble
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Delta Cams in Tacoma Washington is my go to and I would highly recommend that company to anyone its a small business with amazing customer service. They do regrinds for all my import stuff I have their 272 profile in my honda but they do domestic cams also. They can reface old lifters so you can reuse the quality OEM ones if they are in decent enough shape instead of having to use Chinese junk. Also they have a process where they can cut a small groove into lifters to provide direct oil spray onto the cam lobes and apparently it helps a lot.
@@faststang85 yes they are still in business and are still doing all those same regrinds. They are very reasonably priced the regrinds are way cheaper than having to buy a brand new camshaft.
If it was caught as it happened, it would have never gotten as far as it did, and he wouldn't have had to pull the entire engine for a rebuild!! He slapped it together, just figured it'd be fine, and paid the price for it! He never even examined the lifters before installing them FFS!! Didn't pay attention as the break-in process was happening, and badda bing, badda bip!! Glory happened!! Sorry, but installer/builder error!!
Tony I had a 455 that kept eating cams, with a similar wear pattern. I used a wheel cylinder hone on the lifter bores and it stopped. Is it possible that there was some varnish in the lifter bores and the lifter was a little to tight so it didn't spin? I'm not saying lifter taper wasn't a possibility.
I wonder how many more lifter sets / cams are out there with no quality control. Makers are a bit embarrassed? Worries me coz I'm in the middle of a full build and I'll be checking what you just explained. The Uncle Tony for the information on this. 👍🇭🇲
It isn't just xam/lifter sets. Its everything. And specifically from one parts store. Orileys. I went through 7 factory starters from then in 6 weeks. Fron 3 states and 5 stores. They claimed it was the truck. If it was the truck, I wouldn't have been able to get it to start by smacking the starter with a hammer while having someone turn the ignition. I finally got my money back. Went to auto zone across the street and got one. Fron the exact same manufacturer onky manufactured pre cvirus that was a year ago and haven't had not one starter issue since. Everyone is seeing it.
@@FreedomInc seems like no manufacturer wants to comply with quality control anymore. Geeze where does that put us petrol owners/classic/muscle/drag racers from now on?
@@filthyminges wow champion. Manufacturers don't care anymore. What pisses me off is that it's more expensive to now buy for any hi performance parts and look what's happening. 👍🇦🇺
@@mick_1949 I think on this channel before someone pointed out the potential of intentional sabotage of the combustion engine side of things in regards to parts great reset to Pol Pot 2.0 etc
Thanks. Very informative. I just took for granted that stuff out of the box was good. The last engine I did I had night mares of doing the break in. I also use the Zinc oil and took all steps. It worked but now I know I was lucky.
9:29, a telling statement, "we never worried about it." In my past builds, I've mixed original lifters on original cams, replaced a couple of bad lifters with new ones, the last build of an SBC with a Melling cam and lifters done in the late 90"s is still intact. Current build of a race prep SBF will be with the Blue Racer 514 lift and NOS set of Rhoades lifters bought in the 80's because we are weary of the current state of production. And my wife ask me all the time why I haven't gotten rid of these old internal engine parts! Words to the wise from you and DD, "Check everything!"
last flat tappet mill i built was around 1999-2000 . it was a sbc had crane anti-pump up lifters and crane rockers , seems like this mill had the cam swapped once from a huge comp to a l79 repo and re-used the same lifters-- remember when you could buy a good cam from PAW for $49 lol funny thing is i can't recall ANY of those cheap cams failing-- although there could have been some bad ones out there
I ran my new cam in mine for 6k+ miles, and mine started ticking. I thought maybe Rocker Cam loose, but the lock nut was tight, so I pulled a lifter and wasn't gouging but was dished the lifter.
Ever thought about missing oil thrower paddles on aftermarket conrods? Original GM Small Block rods have so called Splashers that throw oil on the cam lobes, most aftermarket rods dont have these oil throwers
There is another factor in the lifter centerline to cam cam centerline equation. The squareness of the lifter bore to the centerline of the camshaft centerline. When I worked in an engine manufacturing facility this was one of the major headaches I had to deal with. Several factors were responsible for this. The lifter bore being machined in multiple station on the transfer line (1) being one. Typically a lifter bore might have two drilling operations plus a roaming operation per hole. I was primarily involved in six cylinder blocks but that only can amplify the issues. 1) Drills and tooling wear. Cutting tools wear. Drill bushings wear. The guide bushings on bushing plates wear. The machine slides on machining stations wear. Two or three million cycles and misalignments will behind to appear. 2) These misalignments will effect accuracy. These can cause the drilled holes to be slightly off location. 3) Another source of potential misalignment is fixture wear. Part locator pins and clamping surfaces wear. This can cause the machined feature to be in a slightly different location in one station to be in slightly different spot relative to the print dimension than in another. If the clamping surfaces are wearing this will eventually cause the cylinder block to twist when clamped up in the station. 4) As tooling wears drill especially can move during the cut. They are far more flexible than most people realize. 5) Reamers even if they hav a bushing plate to guide them will have a tendency to follow the hole. One way to reduce a lot of these issues is to semi finish or finish the lifter bores in boring operations. Just machining 12 lifter bores in a block could take a set of machining stations around 100 feet in length. Tolerances on these features typically would be +/-.003 on location or less. The real killer though is squareness. Typically a lifter bore is .0001 per inch in squareness to the pan rail. But the cam itself may be +/- .003 to true position and .003 in parallelism to the crankshaft bore. The point of all of this is it is almost impossible in volume production to hold tolerances of less than .001 in volume production. 1) Typically components in modern internal combustion engines are machined in a series of sections of specialized machine tools. These sections are typically broken down as Operation sections. Typically devoted to toughing and proceeding on to various other semi finish and finish operations. A fairly simple part such as a con rod may require a machining line 100 to 150 yards in length (2). As the complexity of the part goes up the more operational sections that will be needed to produce finished part. These operational sections are usually separated by loading or unloading stations allowing individual sections to continue to produce parts if the one before or ahead is down for various reasons. This can be tool changes or various repairs being undertaken. 2) Typical operation sequence on a connecting rod would be the following A) Rough grind to finished with using a double disc grinder with the rod carried in a rotating plate with pockets that the rods fit in. This operation includes automatic inspection to allow adjustment of the grinding heads to control width B) Rough bore and semi finish of the pin and rod bearing diameters. Includes auto Matic gaging and tool compensatory C) Drill, ream and tap for connecting rod bolts D) Finish grind rod width E) Finish bore pin and bearing diameter F) Crack the big ends of the rods, brush the faces, insert rod bolts and torque. Cracked rods have an extremely accurate registration in terms of the cap and main body fitting back together. G) Drill oil must holes if required H) Press in pin bushings I) Finish hone pin and bearing diameters J) Final gaging of diameters and weighing of rods on each end. Most modern rods are sintered material that can be post processed forged after sintering. Rods in higher performance engines will have slightly different sequences of operations.
Thanks for taking the time to explain. A lot of people, especially with EVs now in the market, would see an internal combustion engine as "stone age." I would contend, that the tolerances required and achieved, is a testament to the skill of all involved. Have a great day.
That explanation only works for failures from the initial factory build. These failures are in already-proven, high mileage rebuilds or performance builds on older, well-used engines. None of those bore alignment issues would have survived through the life of the engines these guys are working on, THEN blow up new parts.
@@shelleyking8450 Good point. The issue I pointed out only serves to show just how close the machining had to be done on machining lines that may have been putting out say 1500 blocks per day. Day in day out. Actually looking for original machining defects is looking at the wrong end. The lack of cam lobe taper does sound reasonable. In a way this reminds me of another save money by DIYing repair. The one where people re-surface heads using a glass plate and Emery paper. Now think about if the head is an OHC. Single or double. Let's say the warped head is .020 out of flat. We now have a cam here that when originally built that was with in say .002 end to end. The DIY home mechanic now has a cam bore that is bowed in relation to the head surface.
@@mpetersen6 the glass and Emory trick isn't much different than the way many machine shops surface heads. Pretty much the grocery store conveyor with Emory and a stop. Would think with different directions being used, the glass version might be better.
Thank you for this very educational program.. I have been following Dan. He's not very happy.. I did hear it running with a knock knock. He did show the lifter but I haven't seen the cam. Seems his supplier has gone South..
The fact that Comp gave Dan a hassle warranty wise and Summit sent a replacement right away speaks volumes to the knowledge of the issue and who is willing to challenge the poor quality. A run around to the consumer but Summit’s size means they have the clout to address the issue.
Regardless if the part was bad or not.. you cant just clean a pan and block and try again. A wiped cam and lobe will destroy valve guides with all the side loading and particles.. all the bearings the piston skirts and the particls get stuck in the gray goo in the pan baffels.. He will still have carnage if he doesn't rebuild the whole motor imho. I now do rollers only and I plug the oil bypass on filter adapter on chevy. I'll toss a welded baffelled pan if it went through a wipe
Question: do roller cams require lobe taper, and if not, is it possible that some of these camshaft failures are caused by miss-packaging a roller cam with flat tappets from the manufacturer?
I have ran a cam grinder. The operator must dress the wheel often to keep the taper correct. If its not on your cam the operator is lazy. In todays world there are plenty of lazy machine operators. Trust me i have employees
I never had a cam fail yet (on an engine I just put a cam in) , but a lot of it might be prep and the fact that it never went way outside the box. If you want too much spring pressure , lift, and ramp angle you might have to break the cam in without the correct valve springs. Also, the lifter has to rotate, so there must be proper lifter to bore clearance. I always used a wheel cylinder brake hone to clean the lifter bores, it would be interesting to see if there is a way to measure that and a spec that clearance. The best advice I've seen on break in, is to paint a line on each pushrod. If they are turning you are going to have a good chance, and if not shut it down find out what is wrong before the cam can wreck the rest of the engine.
I totally agree. The new cam designs use roller cam profiles, yes they make big numbers but are too much for flat tappet cams. By all means, do all the prep and precautions, but sticking to milder grinds should avoid most of these problems.
There absolutely is ways to measure the bores and clearance and I do ot regularly. Hitting them bore with those break hones though, that is asking for trouble
Back in the day, I ran a Comp 268H in a 350 sbc for over 50,00 miles without a problem. Today, I would buy GM performance parts ONLY! You just can't be sure where the aftermarket stuff is coming from.
Well we are addressing the problem but not the "why" ,, I'm pretty sure what we are seeing is manufacturing moving over seas and or done by younger engineers using cam cad software with NO real world experience.. They are overlooking these subtleties because they are not growing up with old scool mentors who know this stuff..I'm 65 and I hear young people talk and I'm astounded at how little practical knowledge they have or experience.. I'm sure my parents generation might have thought the same of me once but I'm not so sure it was this dramatically different as it seems now. I think the want to just pump out products and taking short cuts to save money is a big factor in why the technology's are shifting to fast and cheap pumpped out parts where they are missing those critical steps.
This was a great episode!!! It is important to know about things like this... The camshaft, lifters, and the rest of the valve train in the truck I drive, is all original equipment, well over 500k. Miles, which is over 46 years old... Oil changes & flters every 3-4k. Miles... 15w-40 Rotella with a bottle of Rislone detergent , Bosch (#3510) filters.. The timing set, the oil pump, fuel pump, water pump, distributor, alternator, starter, t-stat, carb have all been replaced/rebuilt at least once, but engine and heads have never been out of that truck.. A stock Chevy 350 4-bolt main engine... It is still running good.. Great vehicles were made back then...
@@zelenskysboot361 It's a product that has been around for many years... Originally sold in the waxed-paper 1-qt. Round cans, that needed a can-opening tool to put holes in the metal ends... It was less concentrated back then, and replaced 1qt. of oil on an oil & filter change. It really helps to keeps the rings free- from sticking in the piston grooves and it helps to keep the lube passages open and to keep the valve train & lifters free from sludge build-up.... Worth every penny to help keep the engine running properly.
@@michaelmartinez1345 500k miles? I bet if you did a compression check its running on 6 cylinders maybe. Pull the cam youll have flat lobes. I made alot of money changing cams on Chevy 350's in the 80's. They rarely go over 80k miles with out at least one lobe worn.
Right now I’m imagining Zip Ties Peg in the Blues Brothers movie…”Its got a dump motor, a 440 cubic inch plant. Dump tires, dump suspension, dump shocks…” 🤣
See, this cam and lifter issue has been a problem for me, because I have a 68 Pontiac I'd like to get back on the road, but I don't trust any camshaft or lifter manufacturers. I'll probably end up pulling used lifters and a used camshaft from an old Catalina a friend of mine's got, but it would sure be a whole lot easier to put new ones in, and trust that they aren't full of wear.
I had cam failure from that company in the early 90's, two of the lifters we pulled out showed no lobe taper. Haven't used that brand since, also haven't had a failure since.
What about a snug bore, not allowing the lifter to spin? Wouldn't that wear the crown away and make the wear pattern even out and be in a straight line? Not to question the expert, but just thinking of any cause.. Is it true that a company is refurbing lifters and selling as new? I read that somewhere and couldn't remember if it was you that stated it in another video about lifters? Thanks for an informative video.
After my 461 stroker ate a lifter, that made it fine through the breaking, I went with a complete roller setup. Now, after about 20 miles, the hydraulic roller lifters are ticking. So do I just go with solid roller lifters or try another set of hydraulic roller lifters? This is getting beyond ridiculous
You're not alone. I had the exact same issue with a hydraulic roller swap last year...and so have MANY others. Swap over to solid rollers with adjustable rockers and don't look back.
A supervisor of the tech department at Comp Cams told me 3 weeks ago that checking for cam lobe taper is so unbelievably specialized that only two people in the country have been able to do it accurately and properly. Was this a deterrent to try to get me to not bother checking his cam?
Hi Tony, I just asked Dan this, but I want your opinion too. Given that hydraulic flat tappet cams and lifters are a crap shoot, would you just bite the bullet and go to hydraulic roller cams and lifters? I watched Myvintange Iron a while ago (great engine builder) and he said he will never go back to flat tappet cams and lifters again.
Its a worthwhile conversion , youll never have to worry about the cam and lifters again , same reason the oem manufactures do not use flat tappets any more and havent for many years.
@@adamballinger1358 not necessarily true. Aftermarket hydraulic roller cs have been having problems also. And when the needle bearings in the rollers fail, they destroy the camshaft, quickly, and send lots of HARD metal through the engine. Even OEM stuff. Look at all the bad cam/lifters in the 5.7 Hemi and some of the LS engines.
Very interesting subject, thanks Tony! BTW, I've been running garden variety off the shelf oil in garden variety push rod engines without incident. If placing lifters foot to foot, how does one know which lifter has no crown? I propose lifter crown to straight and flat side of lifter (use side of lifter as straight edge). In the case of installing a cam and lifter set, I propose inserting the cam and lifter set and before installing chain or rocker arms, rotate cam clockwise and confirm all lifters are rotating. BTW, I pump up each lifter in oil to confirm it's operating correctly before installing them. I check for smooth plunger travel and leak down (using kerosene or diesel makes this easy).
I'm not sure the lifter is necessarily going to spin if it's just the cam lobe and the lifter. Without any load from th ed rest of the valve train th he lifter just might skate.
@@mpetersen6 You can spin test after completed build, before run. Pop the valve cover(s) & watch. Crank with starter, or sometimes even just turn over by hand. Quick, easy & proof positive of pretty much entire valve train.
@@robertbedsole8682 Yes with the valve train in place once the lobe starts to raise the lifter and compress the spring you will have a load on the interface between the lobe and lifter. What would worry me is with out any load the spinning force on the lifter from the high side of the lobe being unable to overcome any stiction the assembly lube might present between the lifter and the wall of the lifter bore. I think if I were to be building an OHV engine today with any serious performance increases I would go with a roller cam no matter the cost increase. Roller lifter are available for a wide variety of engines and it really should not cost more for a cam ground to meet a roller application than a flat tappet as far as the aftermarket cam producers are concerned. The lifters themselves. Yes they will cost more. More parts more machining.
@@mpetersen6 Understood, but the argument can be made that with zero load, no wear will occur. As load increases, rotation will (should) begin (any resistance from lube will be overcome). Manual spin test will show intermittent rotation w/rocker motion, not smooth 360 continuous rot. Having said that, I think people put WAY too much miracle goop on their assemblies now-a-days. Use a light oil w/zinc, a light assemble lube on lobes/faces, and hand crank until you know everything is right. Then I always crank with starter w/ignition off to bring up oil pressure. All good? Check valve lash. Still all good? Fire it. Never had any problems; never lost a single part. Flats good to prob 0.600 lift, 300+ lbs springs, 7000+ RPM for typ small/med blocks. More with careful design & good parts. Then rollers. JMO. Cheers!
Yay! I guessed the problem the instant you put the picture up! All thanks to learning from the boss. Thanks for sharing all the Knowledge of the things you have learned in your prolific life UT! 😎👍🏻
Exactly why I went to a roller cam. My cam on a new build earlier this summer, cam was pooched in 25 minutes. 2x zinc Maxima oil and installed by a reputable machine shop. They helped me out quite a bit in labor to fix the damage to the bearings, rings and cylinder hone from the cam/lifter trash.
Big Block Chevy's have been FLATTENING cams since the 1970's they are some of the hardest cams to break-in. My buddies 69 SS396 Nova ate 2 cams with all the proper preparrations including the ISKY & Mopar cam lubes being tried. This isn't breaking news....
@@rheidtech I think Dan bought it as a set where the cam and lifters come in the same box. But that doesn't mean they didn't send a mismatch. Good point.
So are there any flat tappet cam and lifter brands out there that can be trusted these days? I’ve heard Crower and Elgin are still good, but who knows?
Uncle tony just finished running a cam in on a 351 cleveland half and hour ago . Did all the checks before install cam and lifters in engine . All perfect this time aroumd last engine i built has faulty lifter same thing happened cheap lifter and i brought them off a big company in usa . .
Try using the Comp Cams lifter grooving tool kit. It cuts a groove in the lifter bore to allow oil to run down on lifter lobe. Supposedly only loses 2psi oil pressure. I started using this on all flat tappet cam engines.
Am I the only one that noticed Dan's face in the reflection on the bottom of the lifter that he's holding can clearly see like where the center to lifter is is where his nose is and it goes off to the left up you'll see his eyes his whole face with the mustache
Thanks for the great video! May I ask your opinion here, my sbc350 1974 block got noise, for maybe 10 sec after start up, I shut it off, opened valve covers and found one lifter collapsed, meaning I cold press on rocker arm push rode side and it pushes down and then sprung back, no others just one. I pressed several times checking it and then at instance it is solid again, like rock solid. I checks the rest and then started engine for a min and no noise. Should I tear it apart now or I'm good for cruising during the short canadian summer and wait when it happen again? I plan to check the lift of that rocker, rotate engine by hand and compare with other rockers using dial
It seems like there is a company out there making cams and lifters that don't actually know how to make them. It's like they are taking basic measurements and then pumping out parts.
Like all your thousands of subscribers your in-depth knowledge & descriptions on MOPARS is soooooooooo helpful. We all wait with bated breath for our next instalment. Another subject Well when you & the Kiwi after had a hard day at it sit back & sink suds or two & talk BS MAYBE instead you could visit Rene's carlife on the tube. Let me tell you about Rene. He lives in Thailand, not a country you would think of for car culture. he is 72 years young & he & his good lady have rebuilt & customized wrecks yes he does his own custom paint jobs welding etc You have to realize that he does this in many cases with what is available locally like they do in Cuba, the Kiwi will be able to tell you what model of Chrysler his Dodge is, he started with basically a bare shell. Finding a engine WELL !!!! you might want to go to the bathroom about that time because he had to do it the Cuban way. The Kiwi will know when I state I am a JAFA but I was born in Kawakawa Keep the fantastic job you are doing Tony. Kiwi Rod
Flat tappet cams suck ass.. the break in.. and even then shit like this can happen.. thats why I run hydraulic roller mopar magnum motors.. so simple and damn near indestructible.
Hey Tony, Tim here, yea, we gotta chk EVERYTHING now!!.....un-related to a bad cam lobe, we built an FE 390 for a guy, i set the ring gaps, we chk'd rod/main clearences......it smoked like a bitch......we tried all kinds of crap, smoked like a bitch.......so we tore ir down, THE OIL RINGS WERE BOXED WRONG!!!!....it was .030 over and the oil ring was standard.....WHO CHECKS EVERY OIL RING?.....the 2 comp rings were set by me, i KNOW they were right....but a lack of brain power on the ring manufacurer/packaging process....netted a bad set of oil rings.....we ALWAYS chk every comp ring, but i've NEVER chk'd an oil ring pkg......we got new ones, chk'd 'em, smoke went away, MORAL: CHECK EVERYTHING NOW, NOBODY IS PAYING ATTENTION, THERE'S NO QUALITY CONTROL!!!.....so i feel ur buddy Dans pain......WHO CHKS A LOBE, WHO CHKS OIL RINGS.... and this was just a stock rebuild, not even a cam upgrade.....just Joe Shmoe......so now, WE CHK EVERYTHING!!!!......PEACE to you sir, once again, GREAT vid!!!...just LOVE it!!
Cheers , we know U , even most 'tubers' kno their job . Aren't tubers potatoes ? . Talkin bout potato's , its good to see the Slag in her rightful home.
The way a flat tappet camshaft works is the lifter does not slide along on the lobe it actually rolls. The motion is sort of like a tire and wheel. Imagine it like a wheel with about 80 degrees of negative camber. If the wheel doesn't rotate the tire wears out in a mile or so vs if it is rolling it lasts for thousands of miles. If the lifter can't rotate the friction most go up by a factor of a thousand or so and this is what causes it to wear out very quickly. When I grind a cam for a big block Chevy in particular I give it .003 total taper which seems to work well. Many times when I check a cam they will have about 1/2 that amount. Keep in mind too that this is total taper. Per side it has about .00015 across the lobe.
This is getting bad. I mean, technically, I was taught to always check the measurements of all parts, just in case, before installing them into the engine. But, then if the measurements are all correct, now we have to worry about, is the heat treatment done correctly? Did they actually clean the casting sand out of the part?... That came from a friend that bought a crankshaft, brand new, and it still had casting sand or something in the oil galleys, oh and rust on the number one rod journal as well because the crank wasn't coated well to protect it from the elements as it was shipped. And like you, I have had issues with a certain name brand gasket maker. I put Fel-Pro valve cover gaskets on my 1992 Honda Civic, and a friend's 1993 Acura Integra. The gaskets didn't quite fit the valve covers correctly, and started leaking from day one. I had people tell me "Oh you didn't prep the surfaces well, oh you didn't install them correctly, blah, blah, blah"... no, I installed them correctly on clean parts, in fact my head had just been reinstalled fresh from the machine shop after a light decking, it was as clean as new, valve cover was super clean...still leaked. Bought Honda OEM gaskets for my car, and my buddy did the same for his, absolutely not a drop of oil leaked in 3 years now for either engine. This is sad, Fel-Pro used to be THE company for gaskets no matter the make/model of vehicle....and now they are just about as garbage as the cheap companies.
Tony you & I agree on about 85% on everything, however on this, I can't agree. 50+years in building motors with flat tappet lifters with ZERO failures for me. I watched Dan to, So sorry but you can NOT build a long-lasting motor in a SAND PIT! The problem was most likely DIRT or other trash in the cam oil gally, plus he didn't use Poly lock nuts to set correct preload on rockers before starting. (Them factory nuts are a 1 time only shot.) Soon as I seem him reuse them old nuts, I knew the cam train was toast. Now me, I am older school then YOU Tony, I still soak my lifters overnight in oil and hand pump them up one at a time plus use a drill motor to prime the oil system as well. Add to that the packet of black high zinc Molly cam grease that comes with the cam is NEVER enough to lube all the cam & lifters correctly. I buy a extra pint can of Isky Molly cam grease and really lay it on super heavy all over the cam and cover all the lifters on all sides with it as well, NOT ASSEMBLY LUBE. Bottom line in Dans words----- good enough for D&D speed shop is NOT good enough. Might want to pay attention to the guys that are NOT having any issues with flat tappet cam trains. Whatever there doing, you better do it to. P/S the Corvette 327 I just built from scratch with a Comp Cams with Hyd lifters from India now has 7,000 miles on fresh build and I am leaving with it next week on a 3,000-mile trip, I have no fear as it's running like a clock.
I haven't tested this yet in a new build, but the 540ratblog tests and ranks oil for wear protection. He discusses cam and lifter problems etc. He rates so called break-in oils poorly, and "debunks" the "old wives tale" regarding zinc. "I tested the zinc additives “ZDDPlus” which added a whopping 1848 ppm zinc when added at the recommended quantity, and “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” which added 573 ppm zinc when added at the recommended quantity. Each zinc additive was tested in two full synthetic oils and one conventional oil. And in EVERYONE of the six test oils, the wear protection capability DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY."
This Is one of the most Important videos to us flat tappet users !! .....No Significant Lobe taper Is the Sole cause of this Specific lifter Witness mark !! ....Both correct cam lobe Taper & Convex Domed lifter Face is correct & nessassery, But correct, Adequate Cam lobe Taper is most important of the 2 & Absolutely Required.....Although certainly not desired, Adequate cam Lobe taper Alone Can frequently cause an improperly finished Flat faced or even slightly Concaved Dished faced lifter to correctly Rotate & seemingly Survive break-in & reasonably normal Initial lifespan so Initial Lifter Rotation verification Alone shouldn't be the Only check that All is Ok for startup & every New cam's each & Every 16 Lobe Taper measurment verification Is absolutely Required pre-check these days to help assure expected results....Just putting this out there as we're all tempted to short cut measurements & verification sometimes......
Crap parts since around 2000, hmm Canada is lop auto parts supplier (Magna International) in North America for the last 20 years. Howes: Chinese businesses are buying their way into the auto industry Michigan Radio Published August 31, 2017 Michigan is like #2 state for auto suppliers owned by China. Go view Auto Wizard video from about two weeks ago, how his Silverado frame is disintegrating --- almost guarantee that frame was made in Canada, unless my eyes deceived me with the 150 car Canuckistan Express rolling through Detroit filled with truck frames ... always remember Canada, YOU'RE the victim!
Watch the pushrods as the engine is running. If they are not rotating, SHUT THE ENGINE OFF!! If the lifters are not rotating, it's going to fail, period, nothing left to talk about! I tell people all the time, you have to watch the pushrods, and make sure they are rotating, don't just install the cam and lifters, close everything up, and pray for the best, either leave the valve covers off until you verify all pushrods are rotating or do like I do, and build yourself a couple of custom valve covers that will stop the oil from spraying all over the place, but open so you can see what's happening. Use a paint pen, and put a white line on your push rods so you can see them rotating. If they're not rotating, take it apart, and replace the cam and lifters with good ones. Otherwise, you get what you get!!
Its a real simple easy problem / solution on all this. In the 1930's they have developed an additive called "ZDDP" and as they raised spring pressure on flat tappet cams, everything has been working great. Flat tappets have been working good so long as was not too high in spring pressure. Then in 1994 the EPA or the "Environmental protection Agency" started reducing ZDDP to near zero due to emissions. ZDDP has usually been using about 3000 parts per million on motor oil, but now its almost none. This is why they have flat tappet failure. So whats the solution ???. Stop using flat tappets and start using roller tappets with a new camshaft. Yes, its expensive, but there no real way to stop this. Since the 1980's all camshafts use roller tappets. Any automotive engineer will tell this, any oil and gas engineer will tell this. There are a few motor oils that do use ZDDP some around 1200 to 1600 parts per million, but its not enough. A few motor oils that use high ZDDP are Amsoil Oil, Pennzoil, Redline, Valvoline and others. Bottom line, use roller tappets for now on and stop using flat tappets. Yes, it means a new camshaft and roller tappets.
Cam failures are from junk parts in my opinion Dan is proof of that added all the snake oil didn't crank it long it lit and ate the cam. I don't add anything in my old junk with mild camshafts 110 -120 psi springs on the seat new. One Erson tq30 has 130'000 miles and gets walmart 10w40 every 4000 miles. Cam failures that I went through all came from the same company. Then for the cost I started just making a call to Schneider, Oregon or Erson cams so for about a 100 bucks more they will grind specific or at least sell you a pre ground cam without guesswork. Thanks tony very good info.
I've wanted to upgrade the cam and lifters in my 1996 Buick Roadmaster sedan since I got it. But parts for the second gen SBC LT1 350 are expensive since they were only made for a few years. And I can't afford a mistake. It's my only car. And I would have to save up for months to buy the parts. If I saved and spent that much money, and took the time to do it, only to find out that I got bad parts...yeah it wouldn't be good for me. So instead of upgrading the LT1 in my Buick. I'm gonna try to save up for an older car with a regular first gen small block Chevy so parts are cheaper and there are more sources. LT1 stuff is just too rare and expensive. Which really sucks cause it's a really good engine. Okay I'm done rambling now
Here are the lengths that I went through. I mark each lifter with a dab of yellow paint. Then I start rhe engine with the valley pan off. With two people observing, quickly look that each lifter is rotation. I found a lifter not rotating (exhaust #2) in under 15 seconds of run time. ru-vid.comz3nYkNRW7NI?si=BGrpIq8ol0GTep9w
Fram had a vintage commercial " You can pay me now or pay me later " back in the day . With so many offshore import products the quality control is subgrade . The same country that gave us COVID sell Hand Sanitizer to USA companies ... go figure .
One word: Roller cam. Ok, maybe two words. OEMs moved away from flat tappets 30 years ago. Why keep messing around with failure prone 100 year old technology? I mean, if it works then fine, but clearly it no longer works.
The majority of cam companies get their lifters from foreign countries (insert location of your choice). They buy thousands at a time. They still say American made but it’s bs. It’s American boxed maybe., or at best American assembled. But it foreign crap. Even the hydraulic rollers are an issue now. This engine stuff is real junk now, it’s really sad times.
BAck in 1980 I bought a Clay Smith cam for a 466 Ford build along with new lifters. Followed the break in with good oil, I wasn’t in the habit of micing cam lobes back then but bout a couple thousand miles after break in period the engine developed a miss, I pulled the valve cover after finding the dead cylinder only to find both the intake and exhaust rockers didn’t have normal travel, long story short the cam lobes were rounded off on that cylinder. Clay Smith wouldn’t make it good because it was a performance grind cam, no warranty.
a fellow man who dislikes third gen hemis.... especially hellcats I hate that crave right now that craze I don't understand. it's just the third gen hemi with forced induction. nothing special about it. it'd be more special. if you bought a 5-7 and made it have 800 horsepower then I would shake your hand but having a crappy old 6-2 with a blower on it does not make me smile when there's coyotes out there in this world. sounding amazing blowing the doors off of fellow V8 powered vehicles with 1.2 less liters of displacement still The best always been the best always will be the best GM. I love you. your close second, but you fell off hard body
