I've built two engines with flat tappet failures: AMC 401, circa 1990. Ford 390FE, circa 1995. Both had Crane Cam & lifters. Both engines were built with break in oil additives and correct engine break in procedures. Both engines suffered flat tappet failure almost immediately. This was extremely frustrating to me as these engines were common builds where I had never had a problem before using the same parts, oils and techniques, but earlier, in the 80s. When I screw up, I want to understand WTH I did wrong, so I don't do it again. Literally for decades, I have been beating myself for what I did wrong on my best friend's AMC 401 and my boss' 390. Thanks to Powell Machining for convincing me, and other conscientious engine builders, that we very likely didn't screw up. Well done gentlemen.
i experienced the same thing, i failed to run the correct oil for flat tappets, you have to run delvac extreme diesel oil of rotella four diesel oil, it has the additives the flat tappet needs to survive.
This is why we all should use smaller shops . This man cares and knows he can't make a living sending out bad products. After 3 bad experiences with the big guys I went back to my local grinder problem solved!
My exposure to this whole thing is My friend in Washington has a cam grinding shop tells me yes he is seeing exact same thing , he actually grinds lifters too . Im going roller in my 401 AMC though. He said yet the hardness isn't the issue.. He has maybe 40 years experiences in cam shops as employee and Owner on them seen and knowns it all. We had a candid conversation and he thinks it has to be the lubrication . I worked for him in a machine shop in the 70-80's, and we did tones of engines, all kinds Just throw it in and drive around the block and your engine if "broken in ready for 200K miles. Never lost one cam and never needed to 2000RPM for 30 minutes routines either. So the factor we all know is, " oil chemistry has changed!
Auto part quality has been nosediving for a decade now. Ive seen multiple AC Delco brand new EGR valves fail within a hundred miles, struts blowing out every 30k miles, etc. Usually it is made in China, but it is sad to see the quality crisis reaching even internal engine parts.......
As a Toolmaker with 30 years experience. I have seen this on multiple occasions. What you describe as "Flaking" is what is called Lamination. This can be in the Raw material from the pour at the steel mill OR it can be created in the HEAT TREATING. This looks to me being the Heat Treating at too HIGH a temperature which causes Decarboning spots or patches. These test at the correct Rockwell hardness but are actually brittle and can separate from it like flakes. Ford currently has a Recall on Godzilla engines for the rollers flaking/delaminating in less than 10k miles.
I believe you hit the nail on the head with one word, "Metallurgy". During the 60s-80s I've broken in countless flat tappet cams, and only had an issue with literally a hand full. But if you think about the decline of the US steel industry from the mid 70s to its peak decline in the late 80s it has to make you think, especially since the flat tappet issues really became prevalent in the 90s. I totally agree with what you've found as far as lifter machining and finnish issues, and believe the it is more critical because of the "quality" of steel today, and we all know where the vast majority of steel is manufactured today. I enjoy your videos, Thank you Sir!
The reason for such widespread poor quality in flat tappet lifters is simple: Way back in the day, and for decades, ALL mass produced engines used flat tappet cams, so the manufacturers of lifters for flat tappet cams HAD TO keep quality and quality control extremely high. Any lifter manufacturer who failed to do this for all of the major auto makers would've lost all of their business........and would be put completely out of business. But when all of the auto makers started transitioning over to roller cams, to the point NONE OF THEM ( to my knowledge ) are using flat tappet cams in quite some time, the major liability against the lifter manufacturers ( for flat tappet systems ) also went away. This means the overwhelming vast majority of business for lifter manufacturers is for roller lifters. Even though flat tappet engines are still popular among hot rodders, racers, and everyday enthusiasts who want to build or restore engines using flat tappet cams, they still only make up a tiny percentage when compared to all of the big auto makers who literally have millions of engines built that require roller cams. There isn't a single auto maker today who demands lifters in their new engines that use a flat tappet system. So the lifter manufacturers simply don't have the widespread liability as they did back when they had to step up to the plate & mass produce lifters for flat tappet cams way back in the day. Way back then, if a lifter manufacturer shipped bad lifters for flat tappet cams to any major auto maker, that major auto maker would've had the time & money to sue the hell out of them. But nowadays, it's down to mere individual engine builders & machinists, and they pose no real threat to the lifter manufacturers in the way of "massive lawsuits". So the makers of these lifters for flat tappet cams nowadays simply don't give a damn about "the little guys" everywhere. Lawsuits are basically won or lost by how much time, effort, and MONEY you have to put up for a legal battle in court. The lifter manufacturers have far more money to defend themselves in court against "some individual engine builder or machine shop". It's a damned shame.
After seeing the magnified view finer and the amount of junk in the material, I agree that it is a metallurgical problem. I am a retired Metallurgist and worked in the 70s in the laboratory of a company making landing gears for commercial and military aircraft. All of the steel forgings we used were of single or double vacuum arc remelt alloy steel. We never saw junk in the metallurgical samples like I see in this video. Now I do agree with Daniel that it can be imbedded from the grinding process due to the oil or wheel being contaminated by grinding a lifter that was made from a crappy batch of steel. These particles of junk can be hard as diamond and cause the accelerated wear. The big problem is there is no traceability of heats of material to parts like we had in the aircraft industry. That is why the failures are so random and scattered over all of the manufactures. Daniel's answer is the only one. Stop using/mandating flat tappet cams.
Yes, I agree with you guys 100%, the evidence is right there for us all to see. But THE REASON this is happening, is because the vast majority of business with these lifter manufacturers is with the major auto makers, and they all use roller cams nowadays. Not to mention all of the individuals who also chose to go with roller cams. That leaves the market for lifters to be made for flat tappet very small by comparison. The lifter manufacturers HAD TO hold flat tappet lifters to much higher standards back when all of the auto makers were using flat tappet cams. But that's old history now, and these lifter manufacturers know that individual engine builders & machinists don't have the power that the major auto makers do........so they get away with murder. If the major auto makers were still using flat tappet cams, do ya honestly believe this problem would still exist with lifters like we're seeing everywhere now? HELL NO. The major auto makers have the power to sue the living sh*t out of them. But the little guy doesn't. @@budehrmann5902
totally agree - i have had 2 very mild 4 barrel cams go flat in less than 50 miles each - both Isky cams with cheap SBI hyd lifters. Used Lucas ZDDP break-in oil. Cam held up but lifters just disintegrated like the metal in the lifter was sintered and not well grained iron. Ran another Isky cam with expensive Melling hyd lifters (same exact engine and Lucas break-in) - no problems. Made in America doesn’t mean the steel that the lifter was machined/ground with was made in America.
@@powellmachineinc3179 I'm gonna help hopefully tha last stage was a acid cleaner sorta but it's nasty for environment ive said too much down the rabbit blue pill red pill swamp U go
2 issues that I see is many people run a modern detergent oil and add an additive to it, we always ran a non detergent oil with GM Eos additive. The other problem I see is that many people nowadays think more Spring pressure is better and it's not good for flat tap at cams.
@@dennisyoung4631years ago on Chevrolet small-block all the connecting rods on the journal side had squirt holes, when the rod came around it was Squirt oil on the bottom of the cylinder wall and on the camshaft, when they done away with the holes in the rod bearings and the squirt holes in the rods a lot of camshafts were going bad. I still machine my rods for small block Chevrolet with squirt holes, if I cannot find bearings with the factory hole I will machine holes in the bearings, do some research on Old School small blocks it's funny that they ran over 200,000 Mi without no problem with flat tappet camshaft.
I'm with you 100%. One day last spring I took two identical flat tappet spec engines to the dyno for cam break-in and tuning. We did everything the same on both engines. One engine did fine, and the other engine wiped out a few cam lobes and lifters during break-in. The sanctioning body doesn't want to hear it.
Here's an experience i had many years ago: building an engine for a buddy's dirt-track stocker: he finished 3rd in points for the season with a seasoned short-block that had served duty for a few years in his cousins B-mod... He melted some pistons after the last race of the season, necessitating a rebuild. Sent the block off to a (supposedly) reputable machine shop to get out checked out, trued up and gotten ready to go... Went to put it all together and set the valves and.... something wasn't quite right. Way different settings from front to back on the rocker adjustments. And even worse, more different from bank to bank. What we ended up figuring out, after much cussing, finageling and measuring, was not only did both deck surfaces run uphill, one side front to back and the other side back to front, but the cam bore was offset to one side of the block by nearly 1/8"!!!! And that was from the factory from Chevrolet! Smokey Yunick, in his chevy engine builder's Bible, said maybe one in every 8 factory chevy heads was actually worth building due to casting and machining issues... after that experience, i believe him. Now what's crazier... I made a set of custom pushrods to "fix" the valvetrain issues on that engine. Literally hand made every pushrod to center the adjustments. Every single one of them was different. I built that engine in 2012. He ran it in his stock car for one season, then we pulled it and stuck it in his square body chevy truck where it regularly sees 8,000 RPM beatings to this day... with some severely F'd up valvetrain geometry going on. Point is, those old castings weren't always great. Hence the need for the "tolerances" and the crown you were talking about.
Coming from a roller bearing background, you are correct sir regarding lifter crowning and surface finish. The crown also helps prevent “end effect” and balances the subsurface stress across the contact area. Grind burn is another boogie man that is hard to detect but will cause early failure. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, you and your son are true Craftsmen that not only know How but also Why!
I'm sorry to hear you've gotten out of the flat tappet business. I'm probably resposible for some of the people calling you because I always sent them your way when the were worried about building a flat tappet cam motor. You are the only person I've seen actually look at all the machining specs and not just blame the heat treat or break in proceedure. It is a shame what has become of this industry. If the manufactures don't want to make a quality flat tappet they need get out of the business, let the market shrink and the cost go up or the those willing to do a proper job. There are too many high value engines that have no roller option. People building those engine will pay what ever it takes to get a quality cam and lifters.
I hope all the lifter manufacturers see this video and friggin DO something! I run flat tappet only. Run Rhoads Lifters only. How do they do it? Never a failure in 40 years. On a Pontiac I can run any lift, duration and LSA I want, break them in under full 320 LB open spring pressure with only VR1 oil and assembly lube and they work every time. How does Jack Rhoads do it? My lifters always come in beautifully ground to a point in the middle. Overlapping circular swirl pattern. Kinda looks like a flower 🌺 when you look at them. Why can no one else do it anymore? I don’t have $2500 a motor to go in with rollers. So Me, Jack Rhoads, Harland, and The Smith Bros. are gonna keep “clicking” down the road in a flat tappet VVT 461 Pontiac. With absolute valve train control. They way we have for 40 years. Recon I best go buy me some cams and lifters before er’body quits. Never run a lifter that doesn’t have a snap ring keeper. Staples are for paper! And, thank you for going further than anyone else’s to bring truth and light to the issue! 😉
I am 76. I have been doing this for 60 years. In the past we just put in a cam and lifters with no problems. No special oil or any of this now. Recently I had a Summit cam go flat after about 1.5 years. I decided to put in a comp cams cam and spend a little extra money for no problems. One cam after another went flat immediately. Finally, after about 3 months I saw a video which mentioned Diamond Like Coating (DLC). On my 4th cam I called Summit and requested an exchange of normal lifters for my new cam to DLC lifters. They are only about $15.00 more. Suddenly, I have no more problems. I have had the lifters out as the head gaskets also went. They look like they came out of the box unused and the cam looks like it was polished. Look at the advertising Summit is now doing on DLC lifters. They work. It is so hard and slippery that it does not wear and just slips over the cam. They are using DLC on piston pins also. The coating does not wear, the metal underneath has to fail. Why not put DLC on crank journals like nitride? BUY DLC LIFTERS.
Yes, I just today learned about the DLC lifters. I Too recall many engines in the 70's 80's, we put cams in , 5 years in a machine shop and do not recall one cam failure, NO special oil, Nothing. I had a 0.575" Lift cam, duel springs in my 428, never once a problem. Ran like new always. Do fear the flat tappet setup is going the way of the dodo bird. It's Not too a big thing, rollers are reliable. Definitely more monies, a few block holes for a thrust plate addition, big deal. It's well known how to do this MOD stuff.
This gentleman understands the geometry and fit of engine parts. The cam has to ride up under the lifter. push it up to valve open, and continue to turn and allow it to return to valve closed position. If the cam is egg shaped in the sense the lobe is not concentric on its face, the lifter will be gouged or worn in one spot. Looking at the lobe from the end of the cam it does have an egg shaped appearance for the eccentric that lifts the lifter and valve. However if you hold the cam lengthwise the lobe of the cam should be finished where it engages the significant face of the cam and is able to rotate the lifter as well as lift it. This is where Mr. Powell is so knowledgeable, so inciteful as to how the cam running the length of the engine and the lifter in the bore will determine if it runs smooth, true and rotates or does not. Bravo.
Hey Daniel, Tim here, THAT sir, was an AWESOME, in depth, look at what the hell is happening......switching to a roller wud be GREAT for me, but the cost, is just to much (I have a Pontiac 455).....I haven't had any flat tappet issues yet, but my stuff has been together for a good while, I have a bigger flat tappet custom ground cam I cud stuff in, that I purchased a cupla yrs ago, but I'm hesitant, cuz of all the BS......to switch to a roller set up on my Poncho, wud be drastically higher cost than any SBC, SBF, etc....cam, lifters, then pushrods, wud end up being close to $2k.....OMG!!!... sorry I digress, but this vid explained ALOT!!!..and I'm a machinist need type, and understood all ur topics...TY sir!!!...ENJOYED IT!!! PEACE to you sir!!
If your current cam is working, LEAVE IT IN and don't change what you're doing. That new cam might work, or could be a guaranteed failure, such is the Russian roulette world of flat tappets.
@yarrdayarrdayarrda thanks my brother, I appreciate ur input......that's been my mind set, but the bigger dude cud net me 10:90's on pump gas.....that's my only gripe.....I'm at 7 flat in 1/8, 11:0's in qtr, just kinda want that 10:90 in my pocket.....but I have to agree, ain't worth blowing it up.......car is strong, and consistent...
Back in the 80s I worked in an engine shop. I did 95% of the head work truck tractor industrial gas and diesel engines. Refacing valves one day I popped a valve out of grinder and saw it hadn't quite cleaned up put it back in and saw it didn't touch all the way around on the face , no wear on the stem. After an inspection and cleaning of the chuck we found it was worn. It was a kwik way pneumatic ball chuck. We bought a new chuck and all was well . The work you do is only as accurate as your equipment.
Hate to see you stop FT videos, but I definitely understand why. But you have been the only one that I believed because you explained everything so well and you backed it up with testing that you showed. Thanks menny times over for your efforts.
Glad to hear from an expert discussing flat tappet issues. As a Northernor I find it a little stressful listening to the drawl but the knowledge makes it worth the listen 🙂
#1 definitely not a expert, #2 I understand, it actually took sum getting use to listening to myself, lol #3 I had a supervisor from Boston once, we all made fun of his "Yankee talk"
I'm from Coastal Maine, spent 30 years on my lobster boat, and I can tell you I sound like I should. LOL! Thanks for your time, compared to me you are an expert, I appreciate your knowledge, and your time given to us to help.
I see so many people posting that the cam and lifters failed on brand new builds. The information in this video is very informative and seems spot on to what the situation is. I've shared it many times with those who have had instant lifter failure.
@@powellmachineinc3179. Yeah but a lot of people can't afford to go roller. There have been some roller lifter failures. And for smaller cams (under about 280° advertised duration) a flat tappet is actually more aggressive (area under the curve). They should just do them right again like they're supposed to! Heck charge a slight bit more for the attention to detail!
I just came in from the shop , another late one … lol , So there is nothin better that havin a bit of wind-down time and listening to one of your videos , they are so informative . Yer never done learnin in this trade , I just can’t get enough ….. lol
I have had lifters ground 40 years ago on an international Scout 304 V8 . It was more common place at the time to refurbish lifters . Well , I cant blame you guys for bailing out on the flat tappet cam and lifter ordeal . Interesting explanation of this subject in detail .Id concur too smooth a finish on lifter base or foot , causes the lifter to slide on the ramp , instead of proper rotation . Btw , think about synthetic oils and the additives to improve lubricity . The lifters are able to slide instead and diminished rotation is the result . Another example seen is GM and Dodge roller lifters with a destroyed roller , that looks like a flat tappet failure . The roller is flattened and cam lobe 8s destroyed . Roller slipping and not rolling . Roller is sliding on the cam lobe , not rolling . The engine oil and the lubricity factor must be looked at .
The reason many of us want flat tappet cam's is because we don't want to spend a 1000 plus dollars for a roller cam and lifters, I personally have never lost a lobe on a flat target cam, and I find it interesting that there have been tens of MILLIONS of flat tappet comes that have worked flawlessly for decades.
I know it sucks but you can spend that $1,000 on the front end or spend it after the flat tappet trashes your new engine. This is why I specifically hunted down a factory roller cam block for my 350chev build and I can use oem style roller lifters. My 1975 Ford 460 is a different story, if I ever put a cam in it I will probobly have to just bend over and pay the extortion.
@@powellmachineinc3179 you must be thinking of your cost as a machine shop not ours......I don't know of a set of retrofit roller lifters that are under $600.....but like I said in another post you can pay it the first time or the second time after the flat tappet fails.
@@powellmachineinc3179actually alot more than that to retrofit a roller cam!!!!! You need cam buttons and thrust bearings, adjustable valve train or custom length push rods because most later 460's have non adjustable valve train. Sorry not going to reinvent the wheel to build a stock 460
@@funkysawmanwright5077. You forgot lifter bore braces. It costs $2500 to retrofit a Pontiac. And you can go into the forums and see roller lifter failure and where the big rollers rip the lifter bores out of the blocks. Roller is not a magic bullet. At all. It’s merely another, more costly avenue, with its own issues to navigate, that if done correctly, may yield a better result. That is a long, steep haul for a “Maybe”.
Mr. Daniel, it's Melissa's husband here, There are times that newer technology makes sense & that goes with many things in life. Much of the old ways are good as well, that said this is strictly my opinion, " When it makes sense and it is an Improvement to a common Problem"then were good. This is why we provide good service both to protect ourselves & our customers. Technology today by way of Rollers is the way to go. OHCams with direct rocker arm contact should be Roller as well but that can be debated with oil technology etc. I aint that smart so I stay away from those types of arguments. That's all I have sir.
Love your stuff. Very interesting info and ive learnt yet more about lifters and this stupid phemonina surrounding FT cams and lifters. I' happy to taper off the FT stuff but it pains me to loose so much $ in FT stock i have currently, if the switch to Roller happens too fast. At the end of the day, i'm in business to provide the customer with the best outcome possible.
Thank you for your words of experience. You made me realize how critical it is for all elements of the design to work together, and most importantly why lifter breakin is so very important. ZDDP is necessary on a flat lifter engine forever, a given. But breakin is necessary because the crown of the lifter must seat into the cam face so there is a uniform distribution of load across each. The lifter can be ground too smooth. Oil and ZDDP must remain on the contact surface. Microscopic Gooves allow it to be there, just as the grooves in a cylinder bore retain oil for the rings. When i look at the cam and lifters removed from my 318 after 100k+ miles, there is a trace of contact around the lifter, but full face contact at the high end. I can't measure it, but i expect the face of the cam has the same microscopic contour ss the base of the respective lifter. I'm building a street engine, not a race engine. New Torquer Flat lifter cam and lifters, ZDDP, correct load springs & proper breakin; it will be fine.
I've never had a failure, but i use stock ratio rockers and stock springs on my stuff, mostly because im cheap. But i believe alot of the failures seen are people using high ratio rockers and or heavy springs. Also, there's alot of social media mechanics that think they know what their doing, and when they find they don't, it goes viral.
🤣🤣🤣. So what about the 1000’s of cams that failed on STOCK LIFTERS AND SPRINGS!! You talk about people on social media talking about stuff they don’t know, and here you are, talking on social media on something you don’t know about. No, a lot of the failures are NOT on high ratio rockers and high spring rates, most people use “break in springs” (springs that are stock pressures) when breaking in. So they would NOT HAVE spring pressure being an issue. Stop talking on social about things you don’t understand! Especially when you call others out for doing the same!! LMAO. WOW. the lack of self awareness!!
Thanks for posting. Always enjoy the information you share. Concerning the cams, years ago I drove all kinds of junker cars. A few times, a lifter would go (click - click) so I would pull it out, go to one of my friend's garage and pick out an old lifter out of his scrap box that wasn't too worn, and stick it back in. Never had a problem with that, I would get another two or three years out of the car with no lifter problems. I don't think I wold want to do that today ?? Best Regards - Mike
Stumbled on this video while searching for info on FT cams and lifters. Sorry to find out you quit doing that. Thought I had found somebody who had finally figured this nonsense out, and was more or less local to boot. Thanks for all the info you are providing.
I just rebuilt my old Mercruiser motor (GM 3.0) and my worry about aftermarket cams and lifters is how I discovered your channel. It's together and runs great, but going out in the middle of Lake Michigan with the thought of lifter failure is always in the back of my mind. I don't know if anybody makes a roller cam for this motor, but I do regret not looking into it. P.S. the reason for rebuild is because two lobes were disappearing, and lifter noise was getting worse.
Back when I was house framing, we had a choice between Korean Sinker (16 penny nail) and US Steel. I always got the US Steel, you could hit a US steel Sinker a bit offset and fine, a Korean sinker had to be 100% perfect blow or it bent. Overseas can do lower quality cheaper than we can but not good quality.
I really appreciate you doing this video. I had to build a couple of engines for FREE because the customer Didn't believe me. After a while they got the message. But it really hurt me trying to protect my business for something that wasn't my fault. I'm sure there are others that went through this... But yeah, we are ALL ROLLER CAM PEOPLE NOW.... OR NOTHING. !!! 💯
I appreciate your information and knowledge. I met one of the cam techs at the comp cams booth at cruising the coast, and I asked him what they were find to be the problem with the lifters/ cams. What he told me was that it came down to the oil. That a break in oil had to be used. Then continue to use an oil with enough zddp, and went on further to say that adding a supplement to the oil wasn’t a viable option as most oils now have enough detergents that it is constantly washing the added zddp off. He also said that the oils with enough zddp in them didn’t benefit from more,so apparently enough zddp is enough and more isn’t necessary. I don’t know Whether that is the failure problem or not, but that is what he told me. I have mild flat tappet to install and break in soon, I have purchased proper break in lube for the install and break in oil, and I’ll have a short prayer service before I fire it up. Thanks again for sharing your findings and knowledge.
I know that zinc imbeds itself into the steel. It sounds like a reasonable explanation. But I don't believe it. Were it a sudden change in the oil additives every single car with a flat-tappet that was broken in then run on standard oil would die right away. Its not across the board like that. Its random. You never know which or why. This tells me its multiple problems in manufacturing. Too course of a grind. Re-conditioned lifters sold as new that are the wrong height (for fixed rod applications). Not enough dome. Too much dome. Too little to reduce foreign contamination while grinding. Figure 1 in 100 aren't done right, in one way or another and individually cause no issues. But 1 in a thousand will have 2 issues. 1 in 10,000 have 3 issues. Use 16 lifters in a build and even with those low numbers you have a 1 in 625 chance that your cam gets wiped. Your a machine shop that does hundreds a year? You use an bad (cheap) parts supplier and you can see how suddenly its a flat tappet crisis. No, I don't believe the oil. What I do believe is that manufacturers trying to make margin aren't checking every single lifter. Their low price sells more, but 1 out of every 50 or 100 wipes a cam. Find me many companies that would raise their hand and write a check to every customer in the last 5 years that wiped a cam because of poor quality lifters. Nope. "Low oil additives" is a much less costly explanation.
@@toddknowsnothing6465 I asked the same question about what about all the lifters running around on the modern oil. I was told that it was primarily a problem when doing the break in. I don’t know, I’m not a metallurgist, nor machinists, I’m a technician and hot rodder. I’m about to install a new Comp cams and lifter set into a fresh built engine. All I can do is check off all of the boxes and make sure I’m doing it correctly and 🙏🏼 for the best.
As a young man in a production rebuild shop, I too would grind tappets with an old grinder. The ways were so worn out I tightened them after each set. Mostly stovebolt Chevys, flathead 6 and 8's, of course every V8 too which didn't buy new. That machine would vibrate and shake all the way through. Those lifters were always rough and scratchy. Usually set at 3 which I believed was degrees. This was 60/80's and you know what, there wasn't a problem very often. These were all 60/70# seat force and say 220 open (?) I Those days no body cared because of the way old days formans. Just get it done. Some race stuff came in and we could get the finish better but just a different time, materials and the oils weren't very good but worked okay then. So different.
I sure do like the Gaterman lifters I got from you after my flat tappet went down. I would have used your cam, but I the large company let me trade my flat tappet for a cam. If it wasn’t a swap I wouldn’t have used them again. Looking forward to using you for my next 2 builds.
Big Thx for all the info you Share.....I recently bought (From 2 well Respected Cam companies) 2 sets of Premium $250/set 0.904" Solid flat tappet Lifters....Under magnifying lens, Every Lifter Face had irregular Porosity hole Voids, Arc shaped gouge dents & Questionable chamfer edges.....In discussing these issues with the Cam Co Knowledgeable contacts, Both advised lifter face Porosity voids Are Normal for New cast iron Flat tappet lifter Faces !! .....I Never seen anything this ragged & irregular with 1960's & '70's Lifters & Not going to use these Lifters....Cam Co Lifter Iron Casting & metallurgy Machining QC seems Impossible to obtain short of super Expen$ive Tool steel lifters & No guarantees that combo consistently works normal....I now have a $800 set of quality Lookin Tool Steel lifters & good new Lobe Taper camshaft but Still debating going Roller 1st time on Oem, 10k milage 1969 Hemi block build.....New Flat tappet lifter Face Porosity voids & Arc shaped Gouge dents Doesn't seem Acceptable to me.....I'm expecting 'bout 25 Ra, Porosity Voidless, Nick free lifter Face finish.....Are New lifter Face Voids & irregular Arc shaped scar Dents Normal & Acceptable usable ??
Great video we need more guys like you that care and do great work with cam and lifters I purchased a Howard cam kit for a big block Chevy. It lasted 40 minutes of run time. they said it was due to improper break in. Thanks for all you do for us racers
Seems like what they all say and will not admit it.........remember years ago guys changing cams/lifters ....and did not even know you had to break -in the cam and lived a long time!!....sad times quality.
Have 70 F-250 that was ready for a rebuilt mild build FE installation. This was over a year ago. Thankfully while looking into different zinc break in additives I came across a few break in scenario's where guys were wiping out there engines. Well one blog led to another to where I was having sleepless nights in my build. Decided to put my installation plans on hold and not roll the dice. Started almost from scratch and spent close to 2500.00 to go with a Howard's cams and lifters roller set up. I still keep up on this scenario and know I made the right choice. Shame on all the name brand entities out there, most of them bought and sold to China ect., knowingly selling shoddy lifters to the public and letting them blindly go forward on there build just to have them destroy there engine during break in and flushing their hard earned money down the drain. If the industry doesn't want to sell flat tappet cams anymore then don't. Quit selling off your inventory with questionable lifters at the customers expense and grief.
@@halseyknox Adding ZDDK is a poor idea. The oil you mixed it with was NOT formulated to accept it, zinc and the detergents in other oils that are Not formulated for break in, particulate ions remove its ability to lubricate. Has a lot to do with chemistry..
At Pete's Machine he would make sure the tappet and push rod would spin on each of the lifters on engines that he ran tested. Also he would drop of the pressure or open up the clearance (back off adjustment screw or nut) until the valves was clacking and all the lifters was rotating. And in those days he would say the lifters and push rods had to spin in-order to seat in or wear in so they will continue to spin. Now On the flat tappets and cam if it was possible to grind a taper on the cam and a flat at the top of the lobe for so many degrees of duration where the lifter will stop rotation but have the largest tappet and lobe contact surface area- at the highest load point and then return to rotation on the lower load duration might fix that flat cam and lifter issue. Good info thanks for another video.
Factory blocks are tough when getting aggressive with flat tap cams. The lifter bores are so out of spec, and the oil isn't as good as it used to be. And not to mention, camshaft break-in is so important. I would always use a 1.3 break in rocker with zinc additive. Great video.
Best video I've seen yet that explains it. My dirt track engine has been in the car, sitting on the trailer for 20+ years and has not been started and that is the best place for it. $7000 spent on a motor and every year they changed the rules to favor the cheater who were already using the better product and did not get tech inspected.. They were the same people who turned me in when I was not cheating and the track banned me when I requested that they inspect the car that was winning all the races. The track was not going to enforce the rules for the cheater because he was bringing in the fans. He's our boy, we're number one!
@@powellmachineinc3179 Western Pennsylvania is a hotbed for stock car racing and engine machine shop. Everyone wants to blue print the block but very few repairs crank shafts and none of them grinds their own camshaft. This is why they blindly swear allegiance to one manufacturer and one engine builder. Even Pittsburgh Crankshaft Service went out of business. Take a trip to Gaerte Race Engine and see who's engine is on the floor. Oh that's some guy from Western PA, we build all his sprint car, dirt late model, street stock etc.. Why? Because ours makes more hp! But no one can explain why! Same people standing in line in Summitt in Ohio picking up blocks and heads and cranks, thinking they can go home, slap it all together and have a race engine. Only they discover that it is only roughed in and has to be finished before it can be assembled.. 1000 video on RU-vid and not one of those genius ever talked about the cam tunnel being in the wrong place . Most people are not smart enough to realize that even after you build what they want, they then try to run pump gas in it.. You can buy anything you want except the gasoline.. No more Sunoco 99 octane gas like we had in 1970.. And if you are going to machine something you need to have one person who knows what they are doing and not let anyone else operate that machine because all they will do is damage the machine and then it won't hold a proper tolerance. I seen people trying to reuse a filter for the coolant and trying to use a coffee filter because there was crap in their coolant.. You have to dress the wheel with a diamond. Some shops just runs it as is.... Thats why you saw that stuff on the lifters..
Good video. Such a stupid problem to have in 2023. Bummer that my Carolina Corvair can't do roller cams without big mods. I reused my low-mileage cam & lifters on a recent rebuild.
Why do the people that run this country not care about the quality of the products that we purchase with our hard earned dollars ? This really burns my A$$! They want you to vote for them for what! This is Disgusting that you have to put in this much effort to use a flat tappet cam! On another subject I am from Pa. We lived in Arizona, New Mexico and Tennessee and no one ever knew where I was from. They said I don't have an accent,go figure. That said I could listen to this Guy forever, I love the southern drawl and in women it's hot! I hung with with a guy from Cobra town mountain in Tennessee and this man sounds about the same. Never had a problem with it!!👍👍👍
Roller cams and roller lifters could be made more affordable? Thank you for all the information. Roller like it or not is the future. Rock and Roll it.
its not just the future its the past as well......the last production vehicle to use a flat tappet was the Jeep 4.0 inline 6 engine that was discontinued around 2003. So the oem pressure for quality has not been on the suppliers for almost 2 decades now.
It’s also a problem with older engines. Getting a SBC with rollers isn’t going to be a huge issue, there are many options. But I’m building a 261 Stovebolt and rollers really are not so easy to put in, the lifters are a bit of an odd-duck size and as far as I know nobody grinds a roller cam for one of those.
Sad to hear you getting out of the Flat tappet product & Services......I recently examined under illuminated Magnification a new in box 1976 GM flat tappet Lifter & it's Face looks Perfectly flawless Smooth with No Face surface Porosity Voids or nick/Dents & has a Uniform nick free perimeter edge Chamfer......Every New camshaft Mfg supplied Flat tappet Lifter set face looks Similar to your example of Defective Face finished Porosity voids Pitted & scarred Nicked up faces with Terribly finished edge chamfer.....All the new Cam mfg Lifters actually look like they are literally Carelessly dropped Dumped into a tub of other Bare lifters causes Semi-circle Scars scratches into All the lifter faces.....If New flat Tappet lifter customers would carefully Examine their New lifters they would be Horrified by the Metallurgy face voids Pits & Carelessly handling scar damage....
Daniel, I have a Continental TSIO 520 in my Cessna. I’ve experienced so many flat tappet lifter failures it’s ridiculous! Every 25 hour oil change the drain the oil through a 10 micron filter, cut open and inspect the oil filter and have a oil sample taken for analysis. All in an effort to catch the signs of early flat tappet spalling! I’ve already had to overhaul this $55K air cooled, 520 CI, 6 cylinder twice for spalled lifters that damaged the cam! This lifter debacle is such BS! One would think the engine manufacturers would be interested in solving this widespread issue but apparently not. Keep up the good work and thanks for the info! Jim Gandee
cool vid - going with oversized valves and higher lift cams causes a lot of lifter-cam slap. Today’s v8 rpm 1,000-3,000 more than the past - takes a lot of valve spring pressure to keep lifters from flying off the cam lobe - check your failing cams you’ll see a lot of chatter damage on the down slope of the cam lobes because the valve spring is struggling to close the valve and push the lifter and pushrod back down. Lifter-cam slap can also show up at moderate rpm’s if engine has bad valve spring harmonics. Every moving part in a v8 is moved to a its next position by mechanical movement but the valve train (when closing) is only moved by the valve springs. thx
Guys, if you must use a FT lifter, make sure your machine shop is honing your lifter bores, especially if you plan on running the new DLC treated lifters.
I’m using GM OE lifters. Came shipped straight from GMs component facility in Grand Rapids. Even have a hardened face of them. I’m running a bunch of spring pressure on a big block. After a few thousand miles all is ok 🤞
Definitely agree, I know when I built my little street 350 I thought oh budget, flat tappet cam will be ideal, it went flat about a month later, just one lobe so I called the big name manufacturer told them about it, they had me send them that cam and they send a full replacement, said it was most likely a bad part or core, I bought another flat from another company, that one went flat on 3 lobes right after break in, same story called them and asked, they said I either broke it in wrong, or my block was messed up, I said well before I rebuilt it it had 102k miles with a stock cam so how is it the block. Bought a roller… learned my lesson, and won’t ever own another flat tappet, granted this was 20 years ago but I think you’re correct to just avoid them
I was always raised to put extra zinc for an oil change with the flat tappet motors. The oil companies have taken the zinc out of oil to make it flow through the roller lifters.
Im glad we are finally getting over the oil/break in mythology. The real issue is poor quality manufacturing. We shouldnt let the manufacturers off the hook with this
I have used Lunati flat tappet cams and lifters with no problems, but I used everything exactly as they recommended. Correct spring rate, rocker ratio, and within the specified RPM range (max 6800). I was able to race one engine for 15 seasons (about 2000 passes) with little cam or lifter wear. I had more problems when I went to a Comp roller setup, still staying aroud 6800 rpm max. When I build another, I am goung back to Lunati and another Flat cam.
Lunati is the only one I use never had any problems. Haven't used Crower for awhile but I always had good luck with them. My opinion is comp crane are junk tried some over the years because that's what customer wanted wanted. Seems like we were both disappointed
Very interesting info to hear about, but the main problem is now I must buy a digital microscope for the garage after seeing how useful one would be. Thanks.
I recently bought a set of NOS Ford D1AZ lifters still in the box. I also have a couple hundred Johnson lifters I bought in the 90's. And I have a couple sets of lifters that came with camshafts that I purchased within the last ten years. I think I'll take a look at all of these under magnification to see what I can see. This whole scenario is fascinating but tragic. I have about 40 cams new in the box and I really don't want to throw any of them out.
A reasonable request, for sure. However, the cost in time and equipment for me to learn how to make videos is beyond my interest. The best I could do, if indeed there is anything to conclude, would be to upload some still pics to a webside discussion forum. @@novanut1964
In the 90's I had a 350 chevy and a 400 pontiac that would eat lifters and finally figured out why. The shop that rebuilt my heads installed used valve springs and over shimmed some of the ones that were a little tired. The overshimmed springs went into full compression bind which would limit the valve travel just enough that the cam would wipe out the lobe on the lifter. It was very obvious when that started happening. I replaced the cam and lifters and eventually when it happened again on the *exact* same cyilinders I started tearing *everything* down and found the extra shims by using a valve spring mic. The first giveaway was the pushrod on the affected cylinder was also slightly bent, noticeable when you put it on a surface plate and rolled it. It wasn't overshimmed by much, but it doesn't take much apparently. Turns out the shop had an apprentice doing work and I wasn't the only victim of his laziness. In my case, he had just forgotten to order the springs. I got new springs and a new cam and lifter set. Point of the story is that it's not always the metallurgy and sometimes it takes a while for this problem to show up.
I had two flat tappet cam failures within a few months of each other, back in 2006. One was on my stock 1964 Corvair flat six with unknown miles, factory cam. The other was on my 1971 455 Pontiac with a Summit racing cam and lifter set that had a couple years worth of daily driving on it. I always ran Valvoline 10w40. And according to Internet forums and car magazines, the issue was mostly due to oil manufacturers removing ZDDP from their oil. This was done because that additive clogs catalytic converters. The problem is, it also protects against wear on high-pressure metal to metal engine components, like flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Metallurgy doesn't explain how my factory 1960s cam and my well used aftermarket cam just suddenly wiped a few lobes. Since then I've always used either a high ZDDP specific oil or an additive, and haven't had another camshaft failure.
Hey Daniel, I recently installed a Melling flat tappet cam and Comp’s new DLC lifters in a SBC. Broke in fine but ended up having to tear it down for an unrelated issue, the motor had about 3,000 miles on it. Those DLC lifter faces are so hard and smooth they barely spin. I posted some pics on my IG account, the lobe noses looked fine but the ramps and base circles have some strange wear patterns. My machinist inspected them and wasn’t worried, Muscle Car Solutions saw my pics and showed Comp while at Sema, they said it was normal. Kinda crazy though.
@@Midnight_Rider96 mine is working fine, just unusual wear on the cam. I bet I could swap the lifters around and it wouldn’t make a difference. I’ve posted pics on my IG account which is the same handle as it is here.
Apart from designated race classes the only reason anyone would run a flat tappet is cost. I'm currently building an almost standard 340 Mopar and a roller cam is $900 and a set of hyd roller lifters is $1200 for basic ones (in Australia). That hurts !!!!!.
I worked flat tapped grinder where I am in Australia . The biggest problem we found was surface finish . We had a brand new set from GM Ford etc to use as masters . Time consuming no Money and always your fault .This was in the 70s 😢looking at your images they have not ground all the scale out from hardening
I figured as much Daniel, I heard as much as I can stand from these Cam and Lifter companies claiming "It's the brake in process, along with the brake in oil but it's not 🚫 us!" It's everybody else's fault! I'm done with flat tappets. Take care
If they're claiming it's a lubrication breakin problem problem with the oil, the cam manufacturer needs to develop an oil and Make the oil available even if it was $15 a quart or more. It would probably be worth it in the long run. Less Warranties, happier customers cams, that would last. But then they couldn't claim. It's because you didn't break it in right if you use their oil. They're breaking lube et cetera
iv built quit a few motors and never had a problem breaking in cams UNTIL i did a year or two ago. Two in one yr failed to break in properly on different motors. i talked to my neighbor that's a little older then me and his family owns a shop said he was seeing the same problems and we just blamed it on crap material and they we had seen the problem on different brands so im done and agree. rollers from here on out
At this point seeing what the camera shows, flat tappet cams are history. You said it's not "a" problem, it's multiple problems. And any one of them will eat parts I suspect. I would not play Russian Roulette with expensive parts and machining. I just hope Roller cams/lifters aren't next. Hopefully mfgs that can't keep tolerances in line aren't making roller cams and lifters as well. Thanks a bunch for bring light on this issue.
As for roller cams, for one they're a lot more expensive. There's also been some trouble with roller lifters (needles). And, below around a 280° advertised duration a roller isn't as aggressive as a flat tappet. Cam companies should simply be aware of the nitty gritty now on the finish (and no junk in the grinding fluid) and it can be 30 years ago again.
Been wrenching/successfully installing ft cams for over 50yrs and today it’s mult issues that lead to ft csm & lifter failures. 1) like stated here there are true issue with poor machining of ft lifters & sone csm s at times too but more so a lifter machining issue. 2) The experienced people are dying off do less experienced people do make mistakes on install that can lead to ft csm/lifter failures like for example;too much cranking time prior to motor starting due to setup/incorrect timing,firing order etc. Don’t ensure lifters spin freely in lifter bores,etc. 3) using for example comps Ted assembly lube that runs drips off the lobes before motor is fired for cam breakin a few days or a wk or longer post install resulting in a dry cam & lifter 1st start. I called comp & spoke to tech help mgr & then upper management on that issue & it fell on deaf ears. 4)not using proper oil with elevated zddp level required gir ft cam breaking & for longevity post break-in too. 5) not using a good sticky grey paste type assembly that stays put post assembly like crane used yo sell. 6) not leaving intake off till you adj valves do you reapply assembly lube to the cam lobes you can access the cam lobes post spinning motor over to do valve adj so you can reapply assembly lube that was wiped off furring valve adj, 7) then after I reapply assembly lube to the lobes post valve adj I then very gently pour done gm rod or Lucas’s zddp breakin additive over all the lifters ,cam lobes & valve train just prior to installing the intake. 8) not giving motor enough base timing making timing very retarded leading to much higher engine & oil temp for breakin. Avg engine builder uses non stock cam with more duration & even mild aftermarket perf cams require 3x-4x more base timing (in 12-16deg btdc) then stock cams do (many 0-2-4-6 deg btdc) that many people aren’t aware of esp the home once in a while wrench. 9) not filling cooling system thru intake prior to to greatly reduce air pockets & overheat prior to 1st breakin start sling with slso drilling a hole in t/stat shoulde to slow hot air to pass to smooth out engine temp a bit while warming up. 10)not putting a lrg box fan up on a box in front or radiator /grill of car set on high speed to greatly reduce engine temp furring 2000-2500 rpm 30-25 min breakin . 11) not changing oil & filter post 25min breakin where a lot of metallic particles are generated furring 2st run breaking and going 300-500mile on the 1st run ft cam breakin oil & filer which is nuts to do. And all the above isn’t everything people are missing that can lead to ft cam & lifter failure outside of possibly having improperly ground lifters & or cam lobes etc. Happy motoring. Scott from ny.
Built a 360 30over dodge LA , only 450 lift mild cam. after running 30 minutes changed oil was shocked to see how much metal flakes was in the oil. most was from ring/bore break in.and new oil pump drive /distributor bronze bushing. Much less after 300 mile oil change. Truck has about 7000 on it runs good. If I went 1000 miles on 1st oil change might of been a different story.
Instructions with Crane's Molly paste. The Gray stuff was also to change the filter after 20 minutes of running because they claim that the Mali paste would plug the oil filter. And I can't count how many rebuilt Chevy engines have come through my friend's hot rod shopThat had the bypass Spring and disk missing from the oil filter adapter. So none of the oil got filtered. So many engine builders do not pay attention to little details. Also, how many people remember the cam shift issues? GM head with small black Chevy's in the late 70s early 80s. Although it seems like small block Chevy's always wipe out the cam near the front of the engine because it's at the end of the oiling system even the beloved 283s and 327s
Good job mate here in Melbourne Australia there’s a high profile engine builder and when he puts together a pushrod motor first thing he does is check the camshaft for straightness right out of the box and it’s normally out by a few thou and they straighten it and they take every single flat, tappet, lifter, and machine a 2° crown on it And when the motor is on the engine stand and you turn the assembly, by hand at the crank….. You can see the lifters spinning dramatically per revolution……. and it seems to me that’s just what you have to do machine a massive crown so that it spins on the face of the cam lobe, which should have at least a 3 thou slope on it to facilitate the lifter spinning in the bore……. Which they also check But as you are saying, they often report the issue with parts is machining and not hardness or tempering……
