Catfishing | NRB Play Blood On The Clocktower 

Would love to see an all female cast for a BOTC episode - Carly, Brooke, Issa, Rosie, Angela, Blair, and whomever else guested on NRB in the past!!!

@@nanyubusnis9397 ah yes, lets have them play worse for content. Love that.

​@@nicholasficorelliii1918❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

Yeah it really hurt the game by Adam guessing Sully and choosing to just go straight to Sully to tell him he is the lunatic. Adam played the meta and knew that the game runners would do that to him. And with his lucky guess it was the only possible chance. If he wasn't the lunatic he would have been told a different role for sure so it was clear as day he was the lunatic. The storytellers need to stop doing the most obvious things they can for content because the players know thats what they are doing. The games are getting progressively easier for the good team to figure things out.

I think Sully would have realized when Brooke didn’t rise to the ‘and what are you?’ question anyway. If your minion starts with ‘I’m the grandmother’, there’s a problem.

Yes! Me too!

A great way to make that sort of game, and you can tweak this to fit the level of experience of the player: *1)* Show them the Demon as a Minion as well as at least one of the actual Minion(s). Yes, this is risky, but here's the key thing: the Demon knows that the person is the Lunatic and can very easily bluff as a Minion and string them along. This can also heavily help the evil team if the Lunatic is the type of person to think their "Minions" are likely good players. *2)* Don't show them any in-play characters or Demon bluffs. (This is something Ben has been doing every time. It's up to each ST how they run, of course, but I like to give the average player one in-play character, one Demon bluff, and one solid bluff in no particular order. Usually the in-play one is a character that wouldn't want to out their role, like an Outsider.) *3)* Show them falsely that they have a Lunatic. This is something you can do, but you really shouldn't do it unless the player is experienced enough to realize that you can do it. (I personally don't think Ben should've done that with these players have only been in maybe 4 games that could have it, including this one, unless they had their own outside experience.) *4)* Wake them as early as possible. This is very ST dependent. A good ST, imo, will never be consistent about how long time passes in the night before someone is woken (and adds extra time at the end). I personally like to take a moment at the start of every night to work out my plans and assess the situation while walking around and stopping randomly. The night order should be Minion info then Demon info right after, so if they wake after a short while in the night, they'll likely believe it. It's incredibly rare to have a game where Lunatic goes all game thinking they're the Demon. The idea of Lunatic is you give them a chance that they'll go part of the game sure they're Demon and at some point figure it out and try to convince town.

@@RavenGlenn you do know the people that have the roles are random right? Just like the good twin or the fake minions are chosen by the storytellers

Sully had already said that Brooke was who his fake minion was.

Probably in a poppy-grower/lunatic script.

I hear that me too! A real lunatic would be awesome!

To be fair, when Adam was the Lunatic, he sure acted like one. 😂

Damn. I thought I was the only one that was thinking this. He could be asking about claims and confirming people.. That's would have been way stronger than the way he used it. You gotta know that with 4 or 5 players left and 4 of them have the same letter in their name, that's what you are going to get, and it isn't going to be helpful really. I would have done this. Dreamer. Sweetheart. Confirm these aren't bluffs.

Exactly, you should be naming good player roles, not evil player roles. Unlike the evil roles, the storyteller can't hem and haw and bluff about a role because you already know who has the role (or is lying).

It’s funny but as a person watching people play a game like this, an accidental shot or a blind shot hits its mark and breaks the game wide open.

It effectively ruined the game is what it did. The teams were set up so poorly for the "lolz" and content that 1 out of 7 shot(barely more than rolling the number you want on a 6-sided dice. If an ability has a 15% chance of breaking the game and causing one team to be set up for failure from the start, then it is bad design. You can roll a standard die and if it comes up a 1, you lose. Thats not a good game. And I say this as someone who has loved every episode before this one. This one just felt lazy all around. Jon was the only one that seemed passionate at all. Evil knew they were screwed from the start and it was obvious by how Laurie and Brooke played with no heart.

Brooke could have easily gotten the information out of Sully without reveling her role. She made a huge mistake there by confirming grandmother immediately. Even saying "why are you asking, you already know" playfully. Then when he says no I really don't, play dumb and say, oh. I thought the grandchild also knows their grandmother. Or something. Knowing she was the widow could claim being posioned, and keep him thinking he was the demon if they didn't tell him she was the minion, which, they kind of have to, because Sully going to a good player and saying what's up my minion, and them going wait what? Instantly confirms lunatic anyway. This is assuming she didn't know the Adam thing happens. It's as easy as, "ok Sully, how do you want to do this". Let him open the conversation, and tell you his plan before he asks. If Brooke was able to get Sully to think he was the demon from the start, he may have second guessed Adam on night one. Played that Adam THOUGHT he was the Lunatic but since Brooke, his minion instantly confirmed him as the demon.... He would spend the entire game second guessing them both. At first I thought she could tell him he is drunk but he had the truth of lunatic or demon. Which is why I think the storytellers should have said a demon that wasn't in play, that way Brooke could have bluffed to Sully that he was poisoned or drunk. Then could hopefully throw even more chaos and hope that Sully tells Adam that he heard he might be the drunk causing Adam not to trust his info. Which... Lines up with the Outsider numbers Carley and Adam being outsiders and Sully convinced he is the demon. If you think there is a possibility you might be the demon, you play like you are the demon. Easy to say all this in hindsight of course. Also Carley confirming Widow, the Brooke instantly going to Angela and confirming her role should have been OK 50/50 Brooke is the Grandmother or Widow, and Angela should have nominated her immediately, with that as the reason. If I die, we lose us both. If she is already dead we only lose 1. OR she is the widow and we need to kill her anyway.

@@RavenGlenn how were the teams set up? The roles are random

@@thewriter8762 a lunatic knowing they are the lunatic doesn't "break the game" in the slightest

God i can't stop laughing what have you done to me! But seriously, why is Jon still talking to Carley? Even when she starts good she somehow finds a way to become evil in every game that she can

Because he knew he wasn't the demon any longer. It was clear as day with any thought. Adam knew he was the demon or the lunatic. If Sully was the actual demon he would have gotten "either the demon or(insert pretty much any other role here). Adam and Sully know the meta of their storytellers. There is no way in hell as the demon that Adam would have picked him and be told he's either the demon or the lunatic. So Adam knew immediately and Sully realized he was right and it all made sense, then confirmed it by talking to Brooke(who likely knew he was sounding too suspicious for her to be his minion. Either that or he knew he was the lunatic. Killing himself was a smart play. He knows that the demon gets told who he wants to kill if he is the lunatic. He saved someone else's life by trying to off himself. Laurie should have killed Adam like Brooke told him to. Instead he didn't realize that Sully knew he was the lunatic. But if he had thought about it he would have known that killing him was a bad play. There was no chance Sully would go the whole game thinking he was the demon. And there is zero reason to kill himself after Brooke died as he would have nobody to pass his demo ship off to. Evil was screwed from the getgo, but Laurie solidified it when he killed Sully off at his request.

He knew he wasn't the demon when he talked to Brooke and she said Grandmother. That's why Lunatics are so hard to convince, because their minion doesn't know they have to act like a minion and they're not going to come out and say "I'm the Widow" on the possibility that they're the fake minion. Lunatic works best in a meta where the demon and minions intentionally never talk to one another to avoid suspicion, which is not usually how this group plays. They get plenty of time for chatting and everyone usually checks in with everyone else.

Honestly it still could have been fun if Sully played Brooke to revealing herself

@@ladygeneveve3805 Yeah, *this* is what disappointed me. I was so ready for Sully to be like "Hello, my Widow. I am the Imp." I was so sad when it became a repeat "Who are you? Who are you?" Still a great watch, but still...

​@@kyleb8117 The classic "Are you evil?" was still quite funny, given that Sully wasn't completely sure at that point.

@@Benjamin-mq6hu For sure.

Adam ruined what could’ve been the greatest moment we’ve ever seen with him and Brooke

He’s a good player, but he did have all the grimoire info night 1. Much easier at that point

Brooke takes the L in this game. It's indefensible to look at that grim and poison anyone but the Dreamer. The Dreamer is the only one who gets good Night 1 info. The Balloonist takes at least two nights to have any info at all, and the Amnesiac usually needs a few nights to figure out his ability. You absolutely poison the Dreamer there and then tell your demon that he has to kill the Amnesiac or the Balloonist. The game fell apart from there. It was lucky that Adam happened to dream Sully, but it was only possible because of Brooke's mistake. She wasted her Widow poisoning pick.

Yeah, this was definitely Brooke's loss. She had the Grimoire but picked the Grandma (an easily killable role) instead of a role that wasn't one of the demon bluffs. She poisoned the Balloonist, a character that can easily be killed by the imp before they get enough information. Poisoning herself to hide the presence of a widow and prevent everyone from sharing their roles (I'm not sure what the other minions are here) or the dreamer would be much bigger. The storytellers and Laurie basically carried the evil team for the rest of the game, with Brooke being distrusted and largely ignored. She didn't have her hand up for Laurie, which signaled to the good team that it was in fact Laurie and undermined his defense.

Jon makes so many mistakes. He deserves to hang for them every once in a while.

Laurie really is quite a shiny guy

Therapist (Townsfolk): Each night, pick a player (not yourself). Visit the Storyteller the following day to learn what they think is most worrying that player. If you choose an evil player, you are drunk until Dusk. I think I might save that one. I quite like it, even though it's a meme.

From my personal experience, it's not necessarily harder for evil, but harder to balance as storyteller. I've also had small games where Good had almost no info (Baron + Recluse) and Evil had an easy win. And they tend to be more luck based, as one lucky pick with an important ability can decide the entire game.

@@patrickhohmeyer7416 I totally agree. Less characters in play = less options as a Storyteller. But then you get some absolutely epic plays from people that probably wouldn't work as well in larger games.

I managed to win as the imp in a smaller game despite my minion not knowing who I was and poisoning me on the second night purely by the monk revealing to me on day 3 he was the monk and was protecting me and continued to protect me. It helps that I kept the monk alive until the final day, which was a gamble since I wasn't sure he was telling the truth. The lack of confessed monk death basically allowed me to go "{player} claimed monk to me last night if I was the demon monk is a gauranteed kill since they can't protect themselves" turning the game in my favour.

It was also her fault that he TRULY pivoted in the first place. Although Adam had "convinced" Sully that Sully was the Lunatic, if Brooke HAD claimed to be his minion, Sullivan may have very well believed her over Adam.

The problem with that is, Brooke had no idea who Sully's minion could be. He already seemed like he was suspicious, if she acted like the minion when it turns out he had been assigned another minion, that would have been real suspicious

what? no it wasn't that was the nail in the coffin that convinced him to off himself. If she had hard said "I'm your minion" it could have convinced him that adam was wrong about which half of his info was correct.

​@@VivBrodockyes, but Brooke didn't know sully thought she was the minion- it could have been anyone.

​@@bacontheshoe, she could have made an educated guess though and asked Sully what demon he was rather than give her role which is very unlike her. That would have made me suspicious straight away, if someone is normally cagey about full disclosure and then suddenly in one game they give it up, warning signs would be flashing in my head. x:x

It was such a losing battle with Isaac already having Amnesiac “L” info and he STILL almost convinced Isaac.

Two problems with this world: Angela saw both Carley and Isaac after Sully died, which means they both could not have been outsiders. Also Jon would have gotten Brooke's grandmother ability, also after Sully was dead, and could not have gotten Adam.

Yes! I've watched all of them now, and at this point I know, but I really don't understand why there is no visual difference between townsfolk and outsiders (or demons and minions for that matter). It would be such a small and easy thing to do...

Now with the official app it'd be hard to do because colors mark alignments, not character types. If you have an evil townsfolk or outsider, they can be painted red

I've seen many homebrew scripts label Outsiders with more turquoise-ish icons as opposed to the dark blue Townsfolk, and Minions with orange as opposed to the red Demons. I wish the official icons were also that way.

Evil could still have salvaged the situation if Brooke had played along and not just come out as grandmother she should have realized she was probably given as Sullys minion from hiw he was acting

@@dibils Oh gods no. If Brooke had come out to Sully as his minion right after Adam told him what was obvious from the meta, it would have been immediately clear she was a baddie. It took them a couple days to ferret out enough evidence that everyone knew she was one of the bad guys. The game would have over much quicker if they knew without question on day one that she was the minion.

@@RavenGlenn Not really. Most of them thought that Brooke was the widow when they killed her. Carley's "grandma is a great bluff for the widow" argument got everyone on board without any actual evidence.

I feel sorry for Jon. He finally learns not to trust Carley (Who was entirely trustworthy this game) and gets hung (literally) on the tiniest mistake.

It's barely even a mistake. Adam was just out for blood. As Jon said, the "mistake" didn't make sense because an evil player would know everyone's role anyway because of the Widow, not to mention everyone announced their roles.

But his mistake made it look like he doesn't know what happens when you're the dreamer. Which makes it seem like a lie that he was the Cannibal

@@TBLIVIN you mean when you're the Grandmother

That was probably the best part of this episode

@@ciaranmcguinness8900 but she didn't?

@@nicolai9595I was really hoping for it too! if only Brooke or Laurie got to Sully first

Hey Holly, I'm sorry you didn't get any replies regarding d&d. Idk if you joined a group yet or not, but I'd suggest going to reddit or Facebook and finding a d&d group for your area. You can ask questions there. Most players are welcoming to newcomers.

Genuinely just created a RU-vid channel so I could ask whether this is THE Holly from other botc games... I need to step away from the botc binge watch 😅

@@t6681 it is indeed back when I was a little fangirl from my old and very secret RU-vid channel! I have another channel for gaming stuff which is called @hollylikesgames ❤️ thanks for the love T 💚💚💚

@@hollymusgraveful very sweet! Love your music too. I've sadly just moved away from London to Scotland but if you do a Scotland gig/open mic I'd be keen on coming along ☺️

@@OhNoItsRez thank you Simon ❤️ in the end I’ve found a couple of groups! One purely for D&D and the other for other kinds of RPG one-shots! Thank you for your help!

Totally. They should give him the name of one minion,the actual minion and thats it. It never works when they give a false name as the non minion has no idea what te lunatic is talking about. Its kind really poorly thought

He really puts his all while playing. It's nice to see someone getting so involved. He is a great player as well, he has improved a lot since he began. But genuinely felt bad for him today.

After today, I’m not sure if this game is right for him. I think he was genuinely upset about being executed, and he should know many times over that that sometimes just happens.

LAURIE: Because we use Discord voice channels for everyone to have private conversations, if we had video on we could see who was talking to Ben and Tom during the night meaning you could work out who the demon was.

Tbh She just talks more than the other players and knows the game more than anyone, it’s not really tricking

He's a player in one of the Patreon exclusive games ;)

Agreed. The game was over before it started and the only reason it took so long for good to win was because they kept doubting that the game should be that easy for them. But it was. The game and the storytellers put everything in goods favor and then couldn't help them because they didn't put any ways to help in the initial setup. The moment Adam made his lucky choice(which wasn't as astounding as some people seem to think...it was a 1 in 7 chance and Adam is generally biased to certain people like Sully so it was probably even a greater chance than that) the evil team was fucked and the storytellers had nowhere to go either. It was a poorly setup game that screwed the evil team. Not a single lucky choice. The storytellers HAVE to stop building teams for the lolz and actually have it be random. Either that or carefully pick classes but do so differently than how they would. Sully being the lunatic writes itself. Anyone else besides him or Adam and it likely would have been a lot more fun. Having his minion be his wife as well? Clearly done for the content. That isnt how the game is meant to be played. Players shouldn't be able to make educated guesses based on what their storytellers would do. Bit they have clearly been able to for the past bunch of games.

@@RavenGlenn Out of curiosity, what would you have suggested we do differently? I'm always looking to improve as a GM across various systems, so I'd love to hear about anything you might have noticed. Keep in mind that the roles are assigned randomly, as they should be, so I can't really go handing people roles.

@@bennburns honestly Ben I don’t think there was anything you could have done. The way the rules play and the characters in play work your hands were tied. The one thing you could have done would have made Isaacs power less impactful but that is unfair to Isaac. Would you have ever imagined that everyone would honestly hard claim publicly? That put you and Tom in such a bad position. Your ability to help the evil team was handicapped. Any lies or misinformation you try to lay out would feel that way instead of feeling honest. And a personal meta is impossible to not develop when you play with the same people so many times even if people are trying to ignore it there are unconsciously biased to certain thoughts. This is like when Blair and Isaac lost so quick. There was really bad luck and a few key decisions made by the players that the story tellers could not control. I like that you are trying improve but I personally feel this game was out of your hands. Ps I feel my custom script was not picked for the contest which is very ok. I am just looking for feedback if you have time to provide .

@@richmccann2052 Hey Rich, thanks for the reply. I'd love to give you some feedback. Can you ping me on Twitter or Discord and I'll take a look.

@@bennburns check your twitter

Man considering the last script will be fan created and probably a little wacky, a game of that quantity of players with an untested crazy script would likely be chaos unleashed lol

@@brandonvangieson8087 I know. I hope to see as much misinformation as possible. So, sailor to make a drunk, puzzlemaster to make a drunk, a goon to make a drunk, a sweetheart to make a drunk, a innkeeper to make a drunk, a actual drunk. A poisioner and a vigormortis to kill minions and more poisoning. There would be so much chaos with all that in play 🤣🤣 And get Edd from TPI to be storyteller so Tom and Ben can both play 👍

@@247marquis I actually submitted a script that is 100% information gatherers and information destroyers. I doubt its going to win, but man it would be cool to see that chaos lol

there's more than 600 entries and it's being judged by several official STs, the script that wins will be excellent

Why? It would be like throwing puppies into a shark tank.

there was a streamed game where that happened a few months back

@@alejoblack368 Alejo! Fancy seeing you here. Enjoy the episode? I saw the Trouble with violets stream on the BOTC channel but I was thinking more like BOTC raid NRB.

@@Jubei66666 I just like to watch the world burn

@@Jubei66666 it might level the playing field a little. Or maybe all this talk of meta might die down with a dose of how someone like Capelli rules things when players lean more on meta than on gameplay. Shaking up the people playing might help. Imagine this group playing a game with one of the smug players who like to go outed evil, or a chaos monster like Fran. Some of them are ready to ascend.

As sully believed he was imp, it’s possible to sell a star pass (imp using ability to self kill to make a minion into the new imp) , whether to sow doubt in silly’s mind, or in town’s. I personally agree it might’ve been mor evaluable to make town waste the exe on sully, but following the kill there is not pointless.

@@TheGamblingisgood but at that point in the game, Sully dying or Sully living would both be proof he was not the demon. If he lived it's because he wasn't able to kill himself ie. not really the imp, if he died and the game continues (which is what happened) that again proves he wasn't the imp because Brooke, his only minion, was already dead

@@vickythefray a fair point, but aside from the idea that I’m not sure a fang gu game had really been ruled out at that point, there’s a point at which a demon has to make a judgement call in the risk of keeping a good player alive just to maintain suspicion on them. Sure sully could hav3 easily derailed the conversation for another day at least, but the odds of being able to pin him down as the demon in final 3 is extremely low, so getting rid of him as soon as possible is not unreasonable as it eliminates a source of nominations and voting.

Like I said, I’m not sure I would have done the same myself, as keeping a claimed lunatic alive can be valuable in itself in a fang gu script, but remember we are making these judgements with perfect top down info. At least in Laurie’s situation killing sully is not going to set off a role that actively wants to die.

Actually Catfishing doesn’t really have any RK equivalents, but still killimg amne’s for example, is always kind of spooky as you never know exactly what might trigger them, and I’ll be honest, in laurie’s situation there I would have been desperately hoping for a snake charmer to deliver him from evil.

Unfortunately I think Brooke realized very quickly that she was screwed. Sully knew more than he should have and it was clear by the way he was acting. From there, she was killed off on night one and couldn't stop it without looking evil. And she made no attempt at all for the rest of the game to add misdirection or defend herself. She should have(and I think in any other game of it they have played she would have) immediately jumped on when Sully admitted he was the lunatic and checked with his "minion" who had no idea what he was talking about. Since everyone believed she IS the minion, she could have easily steered it away by saying: "To be clear, Sully visited me and I was really confused by his questioning. Apparently he thought I was his minion. If you all think I am the widow, then why wouldn't I go along with it since I would have known he was the lunatic?" That would have had everyone doubting and may have helped out Laurie some. Even still I think evil was completely screwed the moment Adam picked Sully and realized the meta of the storytellers.

That would've been worse for the evil team i believe.

They should have given him another letter the next night. Like A. It would also not help him at all but he might have wondered if he was drunk or poisoned since the info changed.

Exactly OR GIVE HIM JUST ONE MINION