A note on this one. All the runs were done with intake temps starting in the mid 20's. (degrees C) None of the tests made it to 30degees before the end of run. As usual, all the other temps were kept close as possible for the tests. So the gains seen are all from increased airflow through the cooler.
Your intercooler placement is cool, is it hard to pipe up or would it be best to have a front mount, just wondering for my 2.8 diesel build, i like diesels better than petrols but i still think petrols do good like this one, the same with a diesel it just all comes down to tuning and what you put, thats just how i think about it Also im guessing the 4age is a little smaller than the 2.4/2.8 isnt it tho so thats how you got the cooler infront of the radiator
Hey, yeah i doubt you will have room to mount the cooler like that, with the diesel in there. 4a is decent amount shorter. Maybe with some slim electric fans it would be close. It does make the piping nicer and shorter
@@teamatmchiptuning5786 Im using software to record the dyno screen. real time graphs are uncorrected with no smoothing applied. The static graphs are with smoothing and correction applied
Not many people put out such content :D I was looking for videos on differences between intercoolers, and this is the only video I ever saw where it was straight to the point and actually showed the dyno session, love it! :D
Hey mate, I greatly appreciate you putting up this video. I had a SR20 that put down 400-500rwhp and did a bit of testing on components as well. I had an ebay bar and plate cooler and it did great for the cost and the application which was predominantly drag and street racing. I also changed the intake manifold from a stock type to a greddy style manifold and discovered that the loss in midrange power offset the gains of the top end and I went backwards on the track. Expensive with the time on the dyno etc, but it was good to see what the outcomes were. I love your little hilux, keep up the great work!
Nice. For sure a lot of people must go backwards using those short runner inlets. Im sure there is plenty of good cheap coolers, just a case of finding which ones mr china did the beast rip off on!
definately ran higher boost to the engine with the better flowing cooler which gave the extra power, same results could be had with a half turn of boost controller, good to see the results though , love these kinda tests!
I recently put a hypertune cooler on my mirage, I was previously running a cheapo core and would frequently see IAT up in the 50's even on low boost if the day was warm. The fins internally were pretty basic and didn't give a huge amount of surface area to provide the heat transfer. Even water spraying the intercooler wasn't that effective and I assume because the weakness was inside it. The hypertune cooler has an offset fin design inside and much more surface area. IAT is now down to around 10 degrees above ambient even on high boost. Winning! Definitely worth the upgrade
Also noting that the tube and fin design of the hypertune allows much more air to pass through the core rather than blocking it, this has helped my coolant temps as well. The bar and plate design of the old cooler diverted a lot of air from passing through the core.
Nice, agree with all your points. although my cheapo one had decent amount of fins inside, and actually cooled ok. but the cores themselves were quite thick. so the internal diameter was quite small, even though looked like a decently wide core from the outside. i can say it was built solid if anything else, i crashed truck into a tree some time ago and it hardly marked it. front of the truck will probably fall off now
yep, just got a PWR cooler, its funny to see so many people overlook the intercooler, going a cheap one, seen a lot worse than what you showed here, yet spending a few hundred more on a cooler can make a huge difference
Dyno suggestions, if you still have the old cooler would you be up for testing bare Ali Vs Black? And possibly DIY water cooling with windscreen washer and some cooling fans running. I do like stupid cars particularly the all go no show variety.
Air temps were about same between coolers in these tests. i started the runs at the same temps - mid 20's and none of the runs made it to 30c. so the gains are from airflow alone. im sure if put it under load for longer, the hypertune would come out on top for that as well.
ROFL at 4:49. good work mate, good to see the old 4AGE punching out the numbers. built one years back with the later GZE pistons and 42mm ; but never did get to strapping on the turbski. what ECU are you running on this? i went backwards and put a holden 5 litre in my RN105 ; but the torque is great off road. what bellhousing are you running and are you running a G box or R box?
Can you test torque gains and hp losses associated with putting different sized restrictors on purpose on the turbocharger? Love the channel I thought it would be cool for the rally guys to see!
If the length and diameter of the tubes are the same, then the fluid losses will be the same. Air does not care if it is flowing thru a cheap or expensive cooler. Any difference would be down to end tank design and it is interesting to note how much they make.
Would be interesting to know how much is from the core and what from the better end tanks. The old ones look a bit flow restricting and can cause internal turbulence. Very interesting test!
depends what you want to do with it? factory setup was way too stiff in mine for offroad. making it soft enough i ended up with all the axle wrap. so went link and coil setup
Notes on being cool. A heavier cooler will initially cool better but will eventually heat soak. If you’re doing a drag race where you get to cool down this can be a good thing but for all other applications especially diesel it is not. The pressure drop across the cooler can be the result of two things other than leaks. First is the restrictions in the cooler causing pressure to build up on the input, this is the most significant cause next to a leak. Second the cooler doing its job colder air is denser so the pressure will drop, a very small drop indicates a very efficient cooler. Cold air intakes are an absolute must. The air under the hood even with it up is not a consistent temperature, you can get gusts of hot and cold air that can mess with your tune. Not to mention that the less heat going into the inter cooler means the less heat coming out both through the intake and through the engine bay.
It usually runs an airbox in front of the turbo. but for these tests i run it without, as its a known restriction that i haven't decided how i want to fix yet. Yep I would assume the pressure drop across the new intercooler is from the air being cooled. old is definitely a cork. can tell this just by measuring the id of the cores and working out the area. its questionable even before factoring in the internal fins
@@Garage4age . I’d get a bucket or something to duct the air to the turbo from outside the engine bay for testing. What gets sucked the turbo in can vary in temperature a fair bit depending on how the wind blows around the vehicle and when cooling fans kick in.
That's great, but what's the cost old vs new? I mean 10KW is great but if you are saying 4x the price between the two. I'll take 10KW less all day thanks ;)
I'm trying to understand one thing: is the MAP sensor for the ECU placed before or after the intercooler on your car? What I'm thinking is: with manual boost, without adjusting it, of course between the coolers you'll see a gain with the better one due to higher pressure (and if the MAP is after the intercooler the ECU is even, maybe, providing better timing and fuel for the condition). But with closed loop boost control (as many modern cars have) and the MAP placed after the intercooler (as almost every car have) there will be any gain at all? Indeed the turbo should work less and this could be already a way to increase efficiency due to reduced pumping losses.
In this case bumping the boost up so map is the same. power results would be fairly close. the cheap cooler is still doing ok ish at these power levels. but can see its on its way to becoming a big restriction. if ran the tests on an engine making another 50kw would likely start to see a significant loss. more pressure loss the intercooler has, the more pre cooler pressure and will be more exhaust pressure. so things will start to go downhill fast.
I 've been watching the Speed Academy Supra vs R34 build where they got Vibrant to do the charge piping on the Supra and I thought their logic of smaller pre-intercooler piping and larger post-intercooler piping was a strange one. I'm guess it makes very little difference at all but curious if you have done any testing on different charge pipe sizing particularly with respect to throttle response.
Do you have any idea what core hypertune actually use? OEM or some specific brand? Also is it a bar and plate or fin and tube? I’m not aber I see it very good from the video Thanks in advance
I had post on the ecu. start and end of the run were basically the same temp between the coolers. Had the same thing on a friends fd rx7 a couple of days ago. 2psi pressure drop at only 10psi, but cooled fine. im sure not all cheap china coolers are created the same. but need to oversize them (more rows or thicker) to get any decent flow out of them
I ran the tests at the same starting temp, around 25c. there wasn't much difference in temps by end of run. the cheap cooler cooled fine. just was starting to run out of flow
Awesome work! I’m surprised at the results. Honestly. Good intercoolers are about repeatable results. Bet you can push that new intercooler time and time again and it will give you good cooling every time. GREAT fab on the end tanks. That makes or breaks an intercooler!
The cheap one cooled fine, just flow wasn't good. All the runs I started at 24-25c and none made it to 30c by the end of run. I'd say the new one will shed the heat better when under load for longer than dyno run though. So yeah can say all the gains seen here are from the airflow alone, not the temps.
@@sepg5084 Partly why i made my own tanks. Making something without too many sharp turns, without adding too much volume was the goal. If you mean I should test some different designs, probably wont happen. time and budget wise out of my league. stick to good design and will work.
I expect it would on longer pulls and not because the core is better but rather that the airflow doesn't have a way to spread out. This way most of air flows throught a narrower section of the core right where the intake points and effectively acts as if the core were a smaller size.
Only have 1 pressure sensor on dyno. so done a run pre, then another post intercooler. Confirmed manifold pressure was the same on both runs, with map log on ecu.
@@Garage4age Oh my fucking god dude that's unreal!! hahah i just did a full rebuild of my 4age over on the gotime channel and went to a link and i gotta say your car makes a turbo for my ke70 very appealing
From memory the cheap one was around 200nzd. hypertune core alone was 500nzd. If wanted to add in the parts and time to build the tanks, it would be well over double that. so yeah, If were on a budget get a cheap cooler that has more rows and or thicker. but will be taking a hit in weight and available space. I'm sure not all cheap cores are created the same either
@@Garage4age well yeah, so preety decent jump in price, for not so great HP boost. Yeah, as u said, if u have money is worth to but good one, otherwisr, dont waste money. Good video.
@@bajkerjohnvolta remember its only a 1600cc, so 10kw not bad. gap would grow more at higher boost, since wasn't a lot in it on lower boost runs. But yeah size accordingly to power
Am I mistaken that you're actually comparing 16.1psi to 14.5psi in the manifold? If you're controlling boost based on pre-cooler pressure, then it's really only a pressure drop test. Controlling manifold boost levels shows what people really want to see - how running a lower pressure ratio for the same boost makes less lag & more power from less heat.
Greetings from Bulgaria!I am really interested in your videos,but can I ask you to speak a litle bit clearer ,with that music is very hard for me to understand what are you explaining.And I am not even talking about the accent ... ;)
HI, please make a video with your original cams, original overlapp, 25 psi boost, and 3 different Compression ratios. 6 to 1, 7 to 1, and 8 to 1, may 9 to 1 with high oktane. Mostly people mean the compression ratio is most importand, yes, for economy. Understand the Filling grade of a cylinder, how many air and the right fuel can i put in a cylinder. A friend has a Lancia Delta, 8V, 25 Psi boost, 98 Oktane, 7,2 compression, and this engine does not need fast ECU to protect for knocking. You never write back, but it is ok. LG
Imo running at least 9:1 is best. but of course It depends on the specific engine and what fuel is available. when getting down into low 8's and below the engine will become noticeably sluggish off boost. If the engine makes more power off boost, turbo will spool earlier which makes even more power earlier. Engine in this vid runs about 10:1 compression and runs on 98on. If i dont write back its generally because someone is asking me to do something my budget or time doesn't allow. I cant justify spending thousands making a video that doesn't really pay anything.
@@Garage4age Hi, thanks, but how is big is the different in power? It is importand to see a crutch: a 11,5 compression Turbocharged modern engine, has only 15 degree early ignition at wot, this is not a goal. The ECU has to be fast to rescue this engine before knock comes. For what? For 2 Hp, or 3 HP? it is the Filling Grade that spools turbo fast, early filling grade, early turbo spool. The Lancia is full optimised, 516NM at 3350 rpm, Garrett 2867, gen 2. It is only a 8V. Filling grade is about 1.8- 1.9. High for this engine. Normaly at 12 psi is only 1.4 like many original engines. Turbo manufactors say the max filling grade is 2.7. We should looking for this, not for compression. LG
Thats a lot of power at such low rpm. 180kw at 3350rpm ? what is the engine size? I haven't tested it on the dyno, just from experience over the years that a hi comp setup will drive a lot nicer. depends what you are trying to do really. Timing is irrelevant. long as you are reaching minimum best timing before knock, number doesn't matter. if you aren't that means you have gone too far on one of your variables. boost/fuel octane/ compression/ charge temps etc.. and need to change something or compromise.
@@Garage4age hi, it is a Lancia Delta Integrale, 2.0 L, 2 Valves per cylinder. Torque 516 NM at 3350, 248kw, 338hp. Big inlett valves, longest original cams, it is a double cam, we found. 238 degree at 1mm. We made much overlapp, inlett 5 mm, outlett 3 mm at OT( deadcenter) and injection valves gone to small. Over 22 psi Injekton valves gone small again, wanted to check for 28-30 psi. Next problem inlett charge to hot, over 80 dedree, need a new intercooler. The filling is very goog, think 1.8-1.9 and i found the new Mercedes AMG 2.0 l Turbo has a filling over 2.0, at 360 HP. It is a original engine, no aftermarket tuning. On Dyno very good, under long term duration ECU reduces power over 105 degree Oil temperature step by step. All new turbo engines have this engine protection parameter, compression to high, and variable Valve timing reduces overlap and temperature grow up. Airplane piston engines in WW2 didnt have high compression, air cooled and supercharged. Is it only to reach miles per gallon? A test would give a answer. LG
Higher compression better efficiency. so yes better economy. That better efficiency will also give more power for the same boost level. If not limited by fuel octane. Rethinking the turbo spool. you are right the turbo may not spool earlier in rpm range. but the engine will make more power earlier due to the higher compression. Its a balance, if you can get away with more compression, its best to use it. what rpm is your engine making max power? must be very low also, or torque must drop away fast?
@@Garage4age I think old mate was referring to blow by which is usually plumbed back into the intake and cakes the internals of intercoolers. I doubt that you'd probs run your crank case gasses back through your intake with such a heavily modified engine and would instead run a catch can or just dump them to atmosphere.
10kw for the cost is not worth it with my CA18DET I put a old exhaust cam on the inlet side and adjustable cam gears for 110 bucks off ebay I got 50hp and it's been running for years had the car since 2000. Still nice vodand seem like ya car packs a punch bit of a sleeper and bush basher.
@@Garage4age I agree always best to do one thing at a time or you never know what mod gave you power or just looks good will keep watch your videos only just found them enjoy.
@@bandini997 will always be some pressure drop due to change in temp yes. but most of the drop on cheap cooler is from being restrictive. where is the small drop in pressure seen on the hypertune core would be from the temp.
I dont have a flow bench or know of anyone in my area with one. plus nothing beats testing on the vehicle. Engine has done over 300 full dyno runs. If an engine breaks with a few dyno runs, its either not strong enough. or tuned bad.
A test that shows that extra boost at the manifold increases power. Pretty amazing... The test should be with a controlled manifold pressure so drop isn't a thing. Who runs boost by measuring pre-intercooler? Both tests should be targeting the same MANIFOLD pressure to show any ACTUAL difference. If a cheap intercooler has 1.5psi of drop just wind it up until it hits your target at the manifold. Air temp and heat soak are the main things
If you look at the graph at the end, there is a clear difference in power at basically the same inlet manifold pressure, for near 10kw. winding the boost up to reach the boost same boost target in the manifold, on a poor flowing intercooler will also increase the exhaust pressure. so same boost in inlet manifold and more exhaust pressure will result in power loss due to everything having to work harder, over a good flowing intercooler. air temps where the same with both coolers.
@@Garage4age 1 psi extra over 16 is 6%. 10kw more 203kw is 4.9%. For 5 % more boost you made 5% more power. Do you see why it bothers me? Seeing that it makes more boost at the same duty cycle or boost tee clicks doesn't show the full story of which is better at a given boost. I understand the issue is backpressure and pressure drop where a better cooler will make more boost and will make more power at the same boost pressure shown in mph increases at a strip but this test doesn't completely show the impact at a given boost pressure. I will argue that until you have a run with the red in line or slightly over the blue for less power this isn't an apples to apples comparison
I dont get why you need to know anything else. the test clearly shows one intercooler is more efficient than the other. At these power leaves sure, can just turn the boost up so more makes it out the other side, on the poor flowing cooler. but why not do it on the better flowing cooler as well?. Then keep going till the turbo and engine are at the limit, the better flowing cooler will come out on top every time. more air density going into engine from the same amount of work from the turbo. The test shows the trend of whats going to happen at higher power levels. I assumed most people would figure out it would get worse at higher power levels.
@@Garage4age So that guys running 200kw don't think an expensive intercooler is going to make an extra 10kw at the same boost level. Think of this as your advertising 10kw gains from bolting on an expensive intercooler. Put an expensive intercooler on when you're limited by boost cut? You're still limited by boost cut with minimal gains. You don't see why it needs to be the same boost level but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
