Cheesing Bosses, Overpowered Weapons, And Gatekeeping (Part 2) | Elden Ring 

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Ys111WINs7M.html

I don’t know about that Ratatoskr, I looked up cheese in the dictionary and it says it’s a food made from the pressured curds of milk.

Glad someone referenced you to me. Your manner of debate is excellent and I look forward to your future content!

Hey Ratatoskr, I think I might have some insight to your very last question. If you even end up seeing this. What might be upsetting to people is that even though you are explaining that playing blind is just a option the vibe you give off is that it's the better way to play. The way you speak is very calculated, deliberate, and with alot of conviction. Which could come off as arrogant or condescending to some people. I see it as a way for you to fully articulate your thoughts but it could be abrasive to some people in certain situations like this one. When it comes to knowledge about video games we want someone we respect and trust and who has good opinions on the material. You are great at that. On the flip side when it comes to picking sides on issues outside of gaming all of these people who respect you and your content want you to think their way is the best way. Which as you know having thousands of different opinions from us that's impossible for you. Ways to avoid this, idk I've spent 10 years in management but this is always an issue. You could either avoid taking hard stances on decisive issues like this or when you do try to understand both sides of the argument. Yes there might be people out there who would enjoy playing the game blind like you suggest. But what if one of the people who tried that was one of the people who would have had more fun looking everything up? It's an impossible situation. I think the best argument you could have made in this situation is this. You can't unsee but you can always look. Play blind at first and then if you don't like it look up what you want. I think you implied this in your video but you didn't outright say it. I don't have an opinion myself on this I just play video games and enjoy them lol. Just my two cents on the topic.

cheesing is bypassing gameplay mechanics. the degree to which you do so is a gradient. and the definition lies somewhere between avoiding the enemy's swing by jumping and glitching the godskin's AI to be turned off. each person picks a different point to define cheesing and in most of these arguments they pick a point on the gradient just to left of whatever activity they are doing. This is because in there head YOUR definition of cheesing devalues their efforts if their activity is considered cheesing. these people will always devise a justification to argue that what they did was fine. And it is fine! its also probably cheese strats. These things are not mutually exclusive.

The last section honestly hurt a bit. Just keep being you, you've made yourself as clear as possible without insulting anyone. No time for bad faith actors that simply refuse to listen.

From what I understand, the uses of the term "cheesing" comes from the fighting game community back in the 90s and was generally used to refer to situations like relying on a character with an infinite combo to win. I heard a story about Primal Rage where if the devs at one point patched teh game where if you won using Riptor's near infinite combo the game would display "Cheesey" instead of "You Win." The thing is, though, Riptor thematically was meant to have huge long combos, that was the design of the character. But it was still cheese.

This is why I watch your videos. Not just because of the content, but how you strive to be clear with your views and wording. I recently watch another RU-vidr with an unpopular take, and the way he responded was pretty... bad. Definitely could have been worse, but he didn't take it well. This is how follow up videos are made to clarify points. Well done.

Honestly what I took from that first video was “play how you want, but I strongly recommend at least trying to engage with these boss fights because you may be missing out on an enjoyable experience” Which is how I play these games. Eventually, if a boss just isn’t clicking for me, I might “cheese” or use strats that don’t engage just to move on. But I try to engage with it a handful of times first. I actually got so shook by Margit at first that there was a chunk of the game where I would walk through fog, immediately summon ashes and use ranged without even knowing what the bosses were. I regret it now, because a bit later a totally unexpected fight took me down to the wire without those things on hand, I barely won, and I realized “holy crap this is why I’ve always loved these games, I’ve been missing out. And stopped doing that. However I may still use those in frustrating fights after some attempts. Which is fine. But I just can’t imagine having much fun running in and doing azure comet without ever even seeing what the boss is about. On the flip side, I could see myself doing that (if I even had the stats), after so many attempts just to move on. So I get your point, I experienced it first hand, and mostly agree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with doing these things, but I do think people may be missing out if they go there right away. Ultimately though if you do find that fun, go for it.

Not sure if anyone noted this before. Fighting Cowboy, makes damn detailed walkthroughs. He has always stated quite strongly that you should not utilize his walkthrough until you have played the game blind at least once. He wants his guides to be post first play through as a means to Platinum or secure missed items. Similar to the message delivered here.

There’s not a sentence to be said that everyone will get behind. How helpful your suggestions are is entirely dependent upon how your audience applies that information and how we apply that information alludes to the scope of our imagination (at least momentarily). I, for one, appreciate the effort, time and thought you’ve put into your content. Thanks and Cheers!

I think going in blind is a valuable experience to have in these games, and most games at that. Failing and trying again is an important part of the learning process, as far as the intended gameplay loop is concerned. Now I like to go into these games mostly fresh myself, but I'm not afraid to look some things up. For example in my primary playthrough of Elden Ring I have done some light searching of the wiki to determine if there are more powerful spells or weapons to be found later that are within the weapon class I am using. Specifically I have searched up incantations, some weapon types, and tips for how game mechanics work. I also do look up character locations so I can try and avoid missing out on questline steps, but I've already missed several minor opportunities anyway by getting further in the game. So I guess you could say I'm somewhere in the middle on this particular topic.

6:24 I never actually got to experience it but there’s a channel named extra credits that explains this perfectly, they explained it using darksouls 2 and defined the levels of cheese as how a player might pick their difficulty setting in any other game. The game is not hard not easy it is merely difficult and the way you address that difficulty could come down to your power or your ingenuity and both become valid if you can THINK of a way to beat the boss or area. It’s about the creativity you can come up with even if it’s simply standing in a window and launching arrows and an enemy that was places in the perfect spot.

people seem to have a misunderstanding of what gatekeeping is. "Gatekeeping is the act of attempting to control, and or limit general *ACCESS* to something." saying to someone they should try engaging in the fights mechanics before resorting to using techniques and items to circumvent the fight is not even close to what gatekeeping is.

"When you can't win in a fair fight, then don't fight fair." -Orphan of Kos

Looking stuff up is actually what got me to love the series. When I was playing Dark Souls the first time, I was dying a lot and never knew what to do so I gave up. Years later I found the walkthrough from EpicNameBro and after watching the whole thing, I finally knew how to play the game and played the game on my own to completion. Now I've beaten every Soulsborne without looking most stuff up for the sake of challenge. It was definitely more satisfying without looking it up but the elation I felt when beating the first game despite watching a walkthrough has yet to be matched... Beating the Bloodborne dlc got pretty close though, lol

I took your advice to play wretch and tried to remain as outside-info free as possible and it's been an amazing experience, so thank you! As someone who actually appreciates advice on how to maximise my enjoyment, being told "play however you want" is useless.

I watched your "play as a wretch" video before the game came out and agree with a lot of the points made. I started as vagabond but approached the entire game with no guides, doing this meant i had to search everything, I'm sitting at about 240 hours now and still have not yet beat the game (I have some of lake of rot, deeproot depths to search and I am on godfrey as my next boss.) This is solely due to fully exploring the environment, double and triple checking that i am not missing anything in an area before moving on. I appreciate the advice you gave to not look things up as much as possible, it made this game a rewarding adventure. (I've only ever played DS3 through once, as a background).

I agree with Scott Jund a lot. His point is exactly how I feel. "Cheesing" is just creative strategy and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The issue isn't "cheese", or creative strategic solutions, it's the negative attitude towards those things. Some people love to "play smarter not harder" and they get a lot of value and entertainment out of that. Other people love the mechanical challenge of doing things the "normal" way. Instead of yelling at each other about it we should appreciate that From has built a game that so seamlessly supports all these play styles.

Its kind of interesting for me because, I have basically never thought to look up "guides" persay, but if an item tells me that it "increases your damage" I will go to a wiki and try and find out what the specific percent that it increases my damage by actually is. I also have killed Capra demon with firebombs every single DS1 playthrough since I learned about that strat lol

13:47 Best I can tell, most people aren't willing to drop their previous experience and accumulated outlooks for a fresh discussion. Perhaps because asking someone to do so is equivalent to removing the buttresses of their position on the matter, which is easily construed as an attempt to place yourself at advantage for whatever argument. Or perhaps that's a stretch idk In short I don't think they're arguing with you, or really even talking to to you. They're engaging with the discussion that's been going on for over a decade, on the terms that they've come to understand it

Man, I felt that you were on point with everything you said. You were well pondered on the points about gatekeeping and interacting with the games mechanics. Your argument on "cheesing" was actually pretty clear and fair.

I got to the souls franchise from watching speedruns of Dark Souls 1, 2, Demons Souls and Bloodborne. I played all four after seeing the "fastest" way to beat them and obviously this did influence my playthroughs. I enjoid all of the games and have done repeat playthroughs for all apart from DS2 and Demons Souls. DS3 was the first one I got to play blind since it got released after I got introduced to the series and I was able to play it immeadetly unlike Bloodborne, which I got a year or so after release. I played DS3 by itself more than I had played the rest of From Softwares titles solely from falling in love the way discovering stuff works in these games. The same happened with the dlcs, sekiro and now Elden Ring. All I can say after these personal experiences is that I wholeheartedly agree to suggesting people to try playing the games blind, since it is a great personal enjoinment factor. Me and you suggesting to play the game a certain way doesn't fall under gatekeeping in a snive way, we just want to pass on a sentiment we think someone will resonate with and hopefully have a better experience due to trying it. There's zero interest of devaluing others experiences, the interests are in igniting that same passion and enjoiment for the games I found trying trying them blind.

You're so patient and reasonable in your response! This channel is a real breath of fresh air. You're a model for how all disagreement and opinion should be presented. Also you aren't gatekeeping at all. Gotta keep in mind that a certain number of commenters didn't watch the entire video or are literally children. For what it's worth, I disagreed with you at the start of part 1 but realized by the end our opinions had more in common than not, because I listened to your points! If a commenter didn't pay attention to the first video idk why they would to this second video

There are lots of people who look up cheese strats and "become OP in less than 1 hour" videos and secretly feel ashamed about it. They just don't want to be called out on that stuff because it makes them feel even worse. What you're doing with your well-intended advice is basically reminding them of that sense of shame, even though that's not your goal in the slightest. Also, the "fear of missing out" is a huge cognitive bias. Playing blind is scary for some people just because they know they're going to miss a ton of stuff (items, bosses, questlines etc.) and the FOMO is stronger than the potential sense of enjoyment they'd receive from playing the game without any guides. That's why they decide to look stuff up. This is both a consequence of human psychology coupled with the mainstream design paradigm of mandatory player guidance. These players would rather follow a 100% walkthrough like the one Cowboy's making rather than carve their own paths simply because they want to be exposed to as much game content as possible on their first playthrough.

You aren't gatekeeping. You are just giving suggestions and these people are misinterpreting your suggestion as an order. On another note I half agree half disagree with the blind playthrough. I also like to go in without knowing anything but if I get stuck I will look at something online. For example when I was trying to access Raya Lucaria I couldn't find the key at all and I was searching for ages until I looked at a guide. My advice to players is to play blind, until you come to what seems like an impasse.

I now have one criteria to determine if I consider my own win valid and worthwhile: Is my heart pounding after the battle? If true, then I am good with it.

As a sorcerer, I’m told all the time how my wins aren’t legit. However, I feel I’ve had quite a unique experience compared to a lot of others, as I use close and long range spells when I fight bosses. I like to mix things up to see what the boss can do. Something that I’ve noticed is that the bosses (usually) have different mechanics depending on the range that you’re using. As in, you are more likely to see certain attacks from bosses, depending on if you’re a melee or a range build. I have noticed that some bosses are actually easier at close range (and some long range) depending on their tendencies and move sets. What I’ve come to find is this: Most people haven’t gotten to experience a lot of enemies the way that I have. What some people said was really easy, I thought was quite difficult. There were people who thought I was cheesing because I’m a sorcerer; and then end up watching me fight an enemy and saying “I didn’t know that boss did that. I’ve never seen that before.” I don’t think anything outside of exploitation and glitches is cheesing, personally. I don’t personally do this, but if someone comes in and they just spam spells at long range, or use comet asur as per cowboy’s example, if the boss isn’t able to move out of the way, or have some mechanic to work around not being destroyed by a single strategy, then that is just simply an efficient method of defeating that boss. Did they get to see that boss’s moveset? Not really; but I bet not many people have seen the full moveset of a lot of bosses and don’t even know it. Just like how a boss with mostly long range attacks and only a few ok’ish melee ranged attacks get melted by a katana (just as an example) easily. People will claim that boss is easy, yet I might think that boss was tough due to the range I was in. For example, there are some bosses where the infinite fp 10 second comet strat is completely trash, as the bosses just simply dodge out of the way. Yet there might be a spell that is slow and has good tracking, trivializing that particular boss. I’ve found all kinds of goofy ways to make a boss easy. I don’t do them; because I want to see all of what the boss has to offer. But just because you’re using a strategy that counters a boss’s particular moveset doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re cheesing them. Also, I’d like to see these people who are so called cheesing bosses use the same method on a much harder NG cycle. The same strat from the first ng might not work on the 5th. Regardless, the question comes down to, do you think cheesing is when you don’t engage with all of the boss’s mechanics? If so, then most people including yourself have cheesed a lot of bosses (I don’t agree with this). If not, then what percentage of a boss’s mechanics do you need to miss out on before you consider it cheesing? Anyways, slight disagreement here, but I appreciate your content and can’t wait to see your next video. I’m not here to critique, but only to offer a different point of view. :)

What's worse than a gatekeeper, are people who take advice misinterpreted as they are being forced to gunpoint and being shamed, sad state of affairs these two sides of the same coin are (the extremes and their toxicness).

"Play the game this way." "I think you should play the game this way." "I recommend you play the game this way." "I had fun playing the game this way, consider trying it out." Note the subtle difference. Judging from your last video, it seems where people draw the "gatekeeping" line differs. If you want to avoid all hostilities you're going to have to walk on eggshells.

I think the tl;dr is that there are insecure people on both sides of the argument. There are anti-cheesers who shame people for no other reason that to feel good about themselves. There are pro-cheesers who are in denial for taking the easy route. It depends on what type of person you are. Some people have the time and patience. Some people don't. If you are shaming people to feel good about yourself or you're in denial and being toxic about it, then you are garbage.

I feel I've got a mildly hot take about cheese: If you found the OP thing organically and just use it, it's not cheese. If you knew about it before hand and bee-lined to it to exploit it, it is. However, that may be a personal opinion, and is simply how I refuse to play. I don't mind having minor details spoiled about this game, but I'll straight up quit a stream when they go somewhere I haven't, so I can figure it out myself. I don't look up games because they're there to be discovered, but I don't feel invalidated for having a different play style. I've had things spoiled that I went back and explored, mostly because I watched a streamer go into an area I'd apparently missed most of the content of. I also tend to *not* watch people play where I haven't been because to me exploration is the point in ER, and strategy is the point in Souls games in general (I'm not far in DS, though). I actually appreciate your insights and opinions how you, as a veteran of the series, play because it makes me think about how I play the game, and even helps me figure it out more. Recommendations aren't gatekeeping, and your videos are "I play this way for these reasons, give it a shot and you may like it" rather than "Only play this way."

You recommended that we start the game as a Wretch; something I would NEVER do. Not because I would find it too difficult, but I like starting from a roleplaying perspective and Wretch doesn't interest me as a result. For example if I play a priest character, I eschew all bladed weapons. Paladin characters don't use bows or crossbows. That's how I do it. I only ever took your suggestion as just that, a suggestion; and as far as I was concerned it was a very good idea and I hope a lot of people gave it a go. It simply wasn't for me, but that had no impact on my respect for you as my favourite Souls RU-vidr. I don't see how anyone could possibly interpret anything you say as judgemental or an order, unless they were not listening.

This conversation has made me back away from many game related discussions. The problem is the jargon. With many people, I see once they begin to use the jargon, it soon becomes thier personal task to redefine said jargon...its almost as if the jargon becomes more important than actually taking part in what they're intended for..

It's hard for me to imagine how someone could reasonably interpret your recommendation for a way to play the game that you find enjoyable (in no way a mandate or necessity) as somehow elitist. That's like if someone tells you they are going to cook a meal, and you have experience cooking said meal. You might recommend a certain spice, or a style that you have found greater enjoyment out of over the several occasions you've made the meal. You're not demanding it, you're not telling them any other preparation is inferior; it's just a recommendation informed by your own experiences. It would be ludicrous for the person to respond by calling you an elitist.

Completely agree here. The only part of the last video I disagreed with is the advice that people should engage with the mechanics on their first play through. I think that encouragement is only going to frustrate people who are new or having trouble developing the skills to engage with all mechanics. Sometimes its either find a way to cheese, or give up. Using myself as an example, my first playthrough was a lot of magic cheese. I would say I used magic more than I liked. But I just wanted to keep the game moving. My 2nd playthrough, I'm soloing bosses with a mace. I'm ready to engage with mechanics now. I think I agree with you. Its just a very difficult social construct that we are navigating. People who agree may still argue, simply because its difficult to articulate our position.

Elden Ring is the first game in the series that my brother, my cousin, and myself can all play together and experience with fresh eyes in tandem. My younger brother and I have been experimenting with more crazy builds right out the gate, meaning we quickly had a lot of quote unquote "cheesy" tactics up our sleeves, but it never felt unbalanced or broken, because so much of the game was already so punishing, and most of our abilities and gear was things we had to kill powerful foes to get, like dragon hearts for our breath attacks, or armor and weapons from unique foes. It wasn't until we got to the mimic tear boss fight that we realized we should maybe not always default to the most overpowered, victory assuring tactics, like scarlet rot breath+keep away, or bleed spam with reduvia/rivers of blood, or even nasty spirit ashes like an upgraded Lhutel the Headless (my favorite summon besides Mimic Tear) because we just might ruin _certain_ experiences. With the mimic tear boss fight, my brother and I both had a similar problem. We entered the mist, buffed up, summoned spirits, and went full NATO before we even knew what the boss was. Mine was dead only moments after I realized what was up against, mostly from Lhutel and Rotten Breath, and I was immediately kicking myself for not just waiting a minute and assessing the situation. _I could have had a kickass mirror match with my doppelganger and found out what fighting myself in pvp would be like, but instead I summoned a bro and had him kick the shit out of the clone in the corner while I gassed him with the equivalent of a can of Raid the size of a house, and he died seconds after transforming without ever having used any of my attacks or spells._ So, when we next all met up, my brother and I took our cousin to the mimic tear and essentially held a tournament. We informed him it would be a fair fight, to let the mimic take shape before attacking, and that we would not interfere. This turned out to be a good fun 40 minutes as the triple strength mimic boss proceeded to pull out some crazy tactics. We all had a go, and Cuzzy said he was glad we didn't just erase the boss without having a good old scrap with it first. I've also just found out about the Stray Mimic Tear boss in the secret catacombs below the path to the Haligtree, so I can't wait to recreate those spiderman pointing memes.

The thing that frustrates me is people say cheesing is bypassing mechanics, but summons, sorcery, stuff like Margit's shackle, etc ARE mechanics. It's not cheesing to summon on Radahn. It's not cheesing to summon Oleg. It's not cheesing to use the shackle. None of these things are refusing to engage with or avoiding needing to engage with mechanics. Not doing these things IS avoiding engaging with the mechanics of a challenge. Yet everyone seems to call summoning or the shackle cheese, but don't consider using pure melee physical damage and refusing to engage with consumables, magic, etc as bypassing mechanics.

Everyone is missing the most important point here... Miyazaki cheesed the players by giving all the bosses delayed attacks and ridiculous windups.

The way that you articulate the points that you wish to make are clear, concise, and in no way shape or form derogatory or demeaning to anyone, and for that I say thank you sir and Bravo!

I really liked the additional part about speedrunning being done via cheesing, in the definition you used without a negative connotation, to the extreme. It makes perfect sense to me, and anyone who has watched any speedrun knows it also requires an incredible amount of skill. It's unfortunate a lot of people seem to take your video and thoughts so personally. It seems more like a misunderstanding than anything. But then again, sometimes people go out of their way to misunderstand.

"blind playthrough" was not what I had taken away at all from the closing statement of the previous video. I actually pretty much agree with encouraging people to play blind and dont consider it gatekeeping at all; its only gatekeeping if you then scoff at someone because they didnt play blind. What I had taken away from the closing statement of the previous video was "I dont use techniques that allow me to bypass boss mechanics, and I'd encourage you not to as well". Which is also something I'd tend to agree with on a surface level, but think that it gets kind of complex and grey when looking at the vast arsenal of tools Elden Ring gives you; infinite fp comet azure might be a bit much, but if you know you are walking into a 2v1 bosses favor then I dont think using an ash summon to make it 2v2 is in any way avoiding boss mechanics but rather playing to them tactically. Combine that with how everyones definition of cheese tends to vary (seriously if you followed a strict "no cheese" rule and everyones definitions were used to make a list of cheese that must be avoided, you'd only ever be able to rune level 1 naked bare fists only), and thats why I agree with the totality of Fighting Cowboy's tweets; it doesnt matter what you use.

Cheese was used in Starcraft as "all in strategy" that wins more than loses against bad players, but rarely wins against good players. It describes a strategy that is incredibly easy to accomplish, but once you did it and it didn't work, you've already lost. Until everyone can agree on what "cheese" is in this game, this discussion will be completely fucked. Not that it matters because winning is winning and that's all that matters.

So, I'm one of the people that left the "cheesing is using exploits/glitches" comments in the last video. After thinking on it, I've softened on your side. My first playthrough, I dual-wielded Moonveil in my main-hand with the Meteoric Ore Blade in my off-hand. I was playing a Wretch that started out going in the Dex/Faith direction that I respecced into Dex/Int after not feeling satisfied with the things I had found throughout the game. I had looked up nothing online, I had just noticed that there were two Int katanas in my inventory that I thought looked cool as a Devil May Cry fan. The last half of the game after swapping to this build was so piss easy that I thought Fromsoft dropped the ball on the last half of the game again. Then, I saw all of the Moonveil discourse online and did a second playthrough where I used the Misericorde + Buckler exclusively with no summoning, forced to learn the mechanics of the game without relying on the Moonveil's massive damage. I do think there are advantages to not using overpowered gear, and I agree with you that learning the mechanics is much more fun than blowing away a boss instantly.

Ratatoskr being at awe and unable to comprehend was such a funny moment to me. It kinda felt like that meme with Patrick getting anything but a jar. In all honesty, saying that advice is elitist is not really anything someone can fight back on, because the people that usually say these things, are very hard to convince otherwise and they will always think of a certain someone as elitist once they've set their mind to it. (which is funny because that's exactly what an elitist does) I personally can't quite say what makes people say this, but what I can say is that the people saying these things, are very pig-headed.

"Nothing goes over my head! My reflexes are too fast, I would catch it."

You convinced me to play as a Wretch and it's been an incredible experience. I've looked things up only when I got sick of trying to figure something out for myself, but otherwise it's been pretty blind and an exhilarating experience. My character definitely feels like a hodgepodge of all the random things I've found through my playthrough. I was using spirit summons, too, since I'm running a melee build and had a bit of challenge with Margit. But I kept beating bosses way too quickly, usually the first try, so I recently decided to stop using spirit summons for at least the first few attempts, too. I definitely feel more engaged with the bosses not using a summon, and I'm still beating them mostly on the first try! It's definitely tougher, but it's a much more rewarding experience. No shame to anyone who does it differently, I'm just glad I gave it a shot!

Hey man, I feel for you on people misconstruing what you’re saying like that. I see that you’re a newish youtuber and I’ve seen this happen with a few others like yourself. I just want to say that in these communities there are a lot of people that purposely or not, misunderstand a lot of these types of things and act like you’re telling people what to do. There’s people like this is almost every gaming community and it’s even worse on RU-vid sometimes. Its just a loud portion of the community. I’d recommend not letting the number of comments like that get to you! I’ve seen a few people get burnt out by RU-vid by acknowledging and trying to argue with those people, to a point they just don’t enjoy making content anymore. Your videos are great and I think that you’re gonna be a very valuable addition to the souls community as long as your videos don’t also consist of being rightfully annoyed by it and repeating yourself over and over. Can’t wait to see where this channel goes!! Good luck man (Edit: I edited the comment to shorten it up and use better grammar but the comment wouldn’t update and I lost it so I’m not doing it again😂)

Martyr might die formulated it perfectly: "ratatoskr cheesed the game by getting his copy for free" 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I know this isnt 100% percent of the problem but im sure its part of it, its about egos/pride. You even mention it in the video, the word “cheese” itself has a connotation that implies people aren’t playing the game correctly and are therefore less skilled or their experience is less valuable and it makes them feel like they cant take any pride or satisfaction about overcoming a challenge. People tend to see that as a personal attack (even though like many others i know you didnt mean it that way) and they end up getting defensive/emotional about it. Its not unique to souls games at all trust me, its a pretty universal response. Very well articulated videos im with you 100% 👍🏽

Don't know if anyone's already made this point, but I think the reason people got upset about your suggestion to play through blind isn't because they thought you were giving them an order (though even they may think that is what upset them), but instead because *they actually agree with you* but don't want to accept the fact that they could have had a "better" first experience -- something they cannot go back and change. From their own perspective, their first playthrough is "ruined" because they've looked stuff up. From there it just comes down to their ego and guilt. It's either a) agree with you and accept that they made a mistake and get over it or b) deny they made a mistake and try to convince themselves of that by arguing with you. Ironically, they are playing a game that teaches you to live with failures and mistakes, but this one is apparently too hard to accept. Just to clarify (since we love to misinterpret each other here on the internet), *I'm* not saying they made a mistake by not playing through blind, I'm saying that that is what *they* believe they did. I don't care one way or the other. I looked stuff up during my first playthrough, had a great time, and still agree with Ratatoskr about playing through blind your first time. I believe the victories would have been that much sweeter, and the discoveries that much more mind-blowing, but I'm still cool with what I got out of it.

I think one important point that you missed is how difficult these games can be to get into blind. There are plenty of guides out-there (Some of which made by yourself) that are extremely useful to new players without making them SUPER OP or taking away discovery. For example going over some of the quality of life changes or advising people that Vigor is really important. Great video btw.

Me: wanders around the game and figures out I can melt stuff with comet azue and a tear. The internet: you cheese trash. What a no skill thing to do Me: bro, I was having fun. Do you think this is a game?

No point backtracking here. As the featured clip says ‘cheesing’ has a negative bias. When you say ‘i don’t mind if you cheese’ what you are saying is ‘the way I play is better than your choice, but it’s ok if you play in an inferior way’. You or anybody else doesn’t get to make that value judgement on another’s experience. Stop concerning yourself with others.

You got me to get 2 friends into elden ring as their first souls like game and all joined blind for first play through, and I even convinced them both to start as a wretch with me, and the way we all slowly ended up with different magic, naturally finding and using exclusive weapons, and the feeling of building your first set of armor and digging for scraps, it made them fall in love with the game in a deeper way I think any other first playthrough couldve been for them, and I convinced them to not use guides and they also managed to naturally get to the end of the game with minimal guidance (I didnt know more than them but knew the dark souls world design so hidden walls and drops were things I hinted at for them) but your encouragement to do playthroughs like that has made their love become so personal and natural, and made both of them want to go back and play all of the souls series with me. Thanks Rat.

I've always enjoyed using and abusing all mechanics a Videogame has to offer and did the same in Eldenring, my first souls like. And I can see where the people complaining about your last video are coming from. In my opinion it stems from two main problems, first beeing the definition of cheesing, as you explained. And the second reason beeing that at times, atleast from my own experience playing the game, killing a big boss with e.g. comet azure can feel a little unrewarding. It can feel like beeing a child and stealing some sweets from the fridge. You feel a little bit bad for doing it, and when adressed about it (e.g. somebody calling your playstyle "cheesing"), you illogically feel attacked, exposed and sometimes get in a defensive state and talk back / write mean comments. What I am trying to say, is that as much as I appreciate your honesty, patience and intent to understand each and every comment, you shoudn't *always* listen to what people say, especially as your channel starts growing, more and more people will feel illogically attacked by minor things.

Elden Ring allows you to get so strong in PVE, that it trivializes a lot of things, compared to other souls games. OP isn’t calling looking things up in your first play though stupid, but I will lol. Seriously though, do what you want. Though it must be said, The game intends for you to be powerful, sure, BUT, it also intends for you to explore and to find those things.

It comes down to this: The game has core mechanics that you are *intended* to use and experience to play the game. Anything that subverts those core mechanics is what "cheesing" is. The thing about any *good* set of core mechanics is that it will ALWAYS alienate the types of people that are not interested in said core mechanics. Sometimes people will just *not* enjoy the game you want to make, and as such will "cheese" their way through it out of some sense of, maybe completionism, maybe pride, maybe FOMO, etc. So as a developer, or any person really, you *must* ask yourself: If someone doesn't like the game you *intend* to make, do you even want them playing your game? DOOM Eternal takes the stance of "No, if you do not want to play the game in the way it is designed, just don't play the game." And it is a stance that I have fallen in love with. For someone who finds the mechanics in these games, *especially* in Elden Ring, extremely fun and engaging, I am saddened whenever I see people cheesing, because when I see that, I see someone who is not ever going to fall in love with the game so long as they continue cheesing. And they have been given no reason not to cheese, such that the cheese still exists. I see a person who is one of two things: They are too scared to try and have fun and have been given a method to allow their fears to continue, or they are playing a game whose core design they do not find fun and are just trying to "get it over with" as soon as they can. And I find either of these things dissatisfying, personally. To return to the original question: Do you want people who don't like your game to play your game? I would answer no. Do you want people who *do* like your game to play your game in the way that they like it for? I would answer yes. If given the option, players will always optimize the fun *out* of the experience. It's an unfortunate side-effect of the human condition. It's up to the developer to make the decision for the player about what kind of fun the game can provide. It's up to the developer to make the optimal route the fun route.

For that last part, I'm going to use a food analogy here, but bear with me for a moment. Someone cooks a dish for you their own way. You suggest that the next time, they try cooking it a different way, because they might like it. This suggestion is in no way you saying they should feel bad as a cook, saying they should never use their own way ever again, or that you know more about cooking than them. You are simply extrapolating that if you, a human being, liked that dish another way, they might do too. In modern times, even such a thing is seen, by a small subset of people, as rude and/or mean at best, and as morally wrong at worst. The simple fact that you had anything to say about their way of doing things is already over the line. And you know what ? I think it's sad that these people ended up this way, but it's not their fault. As far as I can tell, these are people who have suffered from being invalidated, put down, or told how to live their life too many times. Humans tend to do that by default, and the Internet hivemind has taken it even further. Their zero tolerance policy on anyone having anything to say about how they decide to do stuff, while sadly making them miss potentially constructive criticism or suggestions, is simply a defense mechanism they adopted, possibly without even realising it.

People should stop giving shit to other people about cheesing, but also people should stop caring about other people shaming them for cheesing. IF you're having fun and noone is getting hurt in the process, you should never feel ashamed of that.

these two videos did come off a little condescending to me but overall i love the points you made and I love the way you methodically approach arguments. Looking forward to future content!

My first play through of darksouls was about a month before dark souls 3 came out, I looked stuff up, took advantage of strategies developed by people with far more time in the game than me, and I had a rotten time. When dark souls 3 released I played through it blind, explored on my own and overcame bosses without the help of outside resources. That was an experience I enjoyed far more. I deeply regret that I will now never be able to have a blind playthrough of Dark Souls. But I am grateful I learned my lesson before the release of elden ring.

I feel like "cheesing it" is part the whole spirit of the series. You get to pick how difficult the game is for you. Some areas you just want to run through and not constantly be on the defensive.

Hello again! Just commented on your last video, and I find it interesting that this guy agreed with your definition of cheesing. As a Fighting Game player, we would call your definition of non-cheese play "Learning the Matchup." You can bang your head against the wall and not learn anything until you get lucky with your positioning and AI RPS with a big hunka sword, and that doesn't add any more legitimacy or value to a playthrough, even though the system mechanics were dealt with (albiet inadvertently) in this scenario. What I think you're both trying to place value upon is Learning the Matchup, where you know you have to dive into Malenia twice and then dodge any direction and punish immediately vs her Waterfowl Dance. That's a match-up specific strat you need to know if you want to survive without getting lucky. That's engaging the mechanic in a meaningful way. For me, cheese is more akin to getting your opponent stuck in a wall, a la Corrupted Monk, or getting the Fire Giant to follow you off the ledge, falling 2 ft and dying from full life. That's not engaging. But firing a beam when there is no AI option to counter or stop that beam? That sounds more like a battle system oversight to me than cheese. Even Tree Sentinel right when you get out of the gate has a good answer to magic spam - he's mobile and has a direct shield counter. If they had put that kind of anti-delete button thought into all bosses of the game, we wouldn't need to be having this particular discussion. Is Comet Azure + FP flask cheap as shit? ABSOLUTELY. But is it cheese? I really don't know if that's true, as much as it is an eye-roller.

Totally agree with you on blind playthroughs, it's definitely waaaay more enjoyable, and that's not gatekeeping at all, it's ludicrous some people are even suggesting that, it's just an advice "Try this and you might enjoy the game more", how is this gatekeeping is really beyond me. About Scott Young's clip, the problem with his argument is that he conflates using something the devs intentionally put in the game and intended the players to USE (weapons/spells/summons) with using glitches in speedruns or hitting the boss from a weird angle behind a wall, these things aren't even remotely equal, using glitches or hitting the boss from behind a wall is by definition NOT what the devs intended, using powerful weapons/spells/summons is intended, therefor it's not the same at all as using glitches or exploits (which deservedly gets a bad rep).

People calling you Elitist while simultaneously suggesting that they (someone who is not elitist) have a morally superior/better take than you simply by virtue of their opinion being "non-elitist" is the most ironic form of Elitism I've seen to date. And yes, you have my permission to use that logic to severely frustrate every virtue signaler who still wants to troll you as an elitist simply for having an opinion you believe is justified. Great vid 🤙

Well, I believe the downside to "just try a blind playthrough" is the time spent not having fun in a game. My fiance absolutely prefers to look everything up beforehand because he likes to feel powerful in games like this. That way, when he dies, he knows it's his fault and it has nothing to do with the unoptimized build he made. He tried to play the original dark souls blind and ended up quitting halfway through because he wasn't having fun with the game, sort of like the opposite of your friend. And honestly, even though I prefer blind playthroughs, I'd never suggest he try one again, because I know he wouldn't find it fun. So I do agree with your point, just not the part where you say "there's no downside", because there definitely is.

I like you, you don't let bitches walk all over you

I've run into this with friends before, not about a Fromsoft game, but about new experiences in general that they've barely or never tried. Those friends will sometimes be adamant that they know for sure they wont or flat out *can't* enjoy the thing, despite never having really given it the benefit of the doubt. Interestingly, they aren't unaware of this, and will usually tell me that they don't *need* to try the thing to know they wont like it; that they've "reasoned out" it's not for them. This feels like a trap to me, mostly because I've been in that same situation many times, but have instead given the thing that "I wont like" a proper chance. It's not always the case, but many times I've learned I was mistaken in assuming I'd dislike the thing - sometimes, *very* wrong, as the thing turned into an honest passion of mine. With this knowledge, I often try to really encourage people to ignore what they think, and try a thing anyway, knowing statistically that they'll be mistaken about at least *some* of the things they think they don't like. Unfortunately, those conversations usually play out similarly to how this current discourse is playing out. The best conclusion I've come to, is that some - maybe most? - people just really hate being told that they might not know what they do and don't enjoy. It feels to me like that notion is interpreted as inherently argumentative, and thus a form of aggression. They don't hear "I think you might enjoy it, so give it a shot!", but instead they hear "You're wrong/dumb for thinking that, and I know better!".

Being able to explain your opinion with lucidity and without putting down others is a really refreshing thing. I've if I didn't agree with you, I respect the hell out of the way you present yourself and your views. Thanks for doing what you do.

A lot of the sort of arguments in the community sound a lot like "It's okay if you want to play on Diaper-baby easy mode. don't let me stop you from being a casual." in regards to sorcery or summon ashes. This doesn't feel like that though. I get a sense that you really understand the different preference things, and put great care to not sound condescending in it. That was my issue with the first video. I interpreted your main issue with the tweet and underlying sentiment to be the classification of something as Cheesing. It seemed like you were saying that someone is wrong for not being honest about it being cheesing, negative connotation and all. This puts it in a different light as now you've thrown out your thoughts of Cheesing being a legit, and for some, more fun strategy. This is honestly a really good example of forming argumentations, and getting your points across.

I really enjoyed part one. This is a good conversation that should occur.

I really don't see how making a powerful build is in any way "not engaging with the core mechanics". It's literally an RPG, the whole POINT is to build a character and watch them get stronger as their stats go up and they find better equipment. If you smash a boss in twenty seconds due to that, all that means is that you created a powerful character- as was intended.

I think a lot of it boils down to this (the same thing that happens in fighting games); there are people who play for fun and people who play to Win, and the latter half don't care how it's done - the moment they start losing they stop having fun (and send me rude mail). I would rather lose every fighting game match I ever played by a sliver of health than take them all by a landslide, but in my experience I am in the minority there. Most seem to want to get OP early or mitigate their risks so that the threat of constant loss or the tedium of exploring and grinding (which many love) doesn't ruin the experience for them. Hope that makes sense.

I think the big reason why people are reacting to your value judgements at the end of the last video, is the subtle distinction between saying "There is more value in blind playthroughs" vs "I find there to be more value in blind playthroughs for myself". One can be taken as an objective statement of fact, and the other asserts that this is simply your subjective way of getting the most value out of the experience. I had assumed you meant the latter statement, as your tone and this video does not strike me as you making any kind of "objective" value judgement. But I can see why people who are already feeling sensitive about FromSoft veterans being judgemental to them on how they play, would react defensively and assume you meant the first one. Hopefully this helps shed some light on what I feel is the psychology behind the responses you are receiving.

Everytime this comes up, I'll always have the same response. They put a ballista in the pursuer arena for a reason.

Do you also admit that some people might fall in love with the series more if they started cheesing more? Basically what im arguing is that some people ruin their dark souls experience by making it too hard on themselves with restrictions.

Let me preface this by saying, I look tonnes of stuff up before and while I play just about any game. I don't get to play games a lot and feeling endlessly lost or frustrated is not what I come to them for and yet I still absolutely agree with everything you're saying here. It's clear you were just giving your opinion on a way to play and in many ways it even reflects my experience. There have been many games that I've left in the mid to late game because I was overpowered and I knew I could easily finish it. I probably also knew exactly how the game would end cus I'd have already seen it. And for me, that's perfectly fine! As I said I don't have a lot of time and so that just so happens to be a satisfactory conclusion for me, with one caveat, it's satisfactory, so long as I played it the way I wanted to. What this means in elden ring is I haven't copied anyone's build cus I want to be a lighting Claymore wielding lord. I don't use furcalling remedies cus that's just not how I want to do it (but there are absolutely bosses I've cheesed by tucking out of reach and lighting bolting them to death- again, it's just me). I fight with brOleg instead of black knife tiche cus he's been there since the start- you can bet your ass I chose him from a top ten video though. I farm ruins and look up smithing stone locations, NPC locations, etc, but only til I have what I need to keep going with my story. I learnt how to parry for crucible knight cus that was more rewarding than just over levelling, but on the flip side, even having learnt his full skill set, I had to go do some grinding to _finally_ kill Godfreys ghost (and funnily enough Margott literally went down five minutes later). I one hundred percent don't think you're gatekeeping the experience, you just want people to think a bit about how they're choosing to play and making the decision that suits them best- not just the one that's easiest

That isn’t even a “Souls” game thing, it applies to basically every game ever made, blind playthroughs will always be superior to following a step by step guide

Respectfully, I think by nature of who these videos are going to reach, you're fighting a losing battle. I imagine the majority of people who came across your last video, are likely people who have looked things up, myself included. As a result, a good amount of those people are going to strongly disagree with you just because you hold, at least initially (play blind, then look things up if that's not for you), a different opinion than they do. I did look up a good bit myself, I felt incredibly overwhelmed by how much there was to do and honestly got so lost trying to find some sense of direction. I have fully enjoyed the game, however, and I very much look forward to the next Souls game and will 100% try to go into it blind now that I have a somewhat okay grasp of the basics of the genre (or so I assume). This was my first experience with the genre, and it's been an absolute blast to play through the game. From demolishing Godfrey in my first few attempts, to cheesing the fuck out of the Draconic Tree Sentinel outside of the capital entrance because fuck him, this game is easily in my GOTY contenders. I can only imagine the excitement of having a fully spoiler free run of the game.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I found the game more fulfilling playing X way, exploring at my own pace, not using guides, and think you should try it too." You are absolutely allowed to voice your opinion about that.. Seems like more people gatekeep about how you like to play than the elitist "no spirit ash, naked run only" people. To add my own fuel to the fire, I felt killing Margit and my first Godskin Apostle with a claymore and determination was more fulfilling than killing Malenia with Mimic and ice dragon breath spam. No one else has to feel the same as I do, but I am allowed to say I enjoyed the greater challenge more.

Love the way you explain your viewpoints in general man , not to mention you have a relaxing voice . Great video as always , people just get prickly when they think are being criticized

I'm with you 100% on this one. I didn't look up anything until end game for Elden Ring and even then I kind of regretted it

I think "cheesing" is very subjective, some could argue that summoning Spirit Ashes is cheese, because it irritates the A.I., one might argue using endgame weapons (especially when you looked them up online) for early encounters is cheesing - or farming the same enemies over and over until you're overleveled is cheesing - I couldn't really define how "cheese" works for me and I think this discussion is a slippery slope - Is anything but a SL1, Shabriris and Daedicars Woe, Bare Fists and Bare Cheeks run not making the game easier and therefore cheese?

12:30 If you tell someone playing chess that you can't simply put the knight on any spot you choose it's gatekeeping and you should be ashamed. You are physically able to do so after all.

Brand new listener, new souls player here, and brand new subscriber. I think it’s great that these conservations are happening within this community. Coming from the FGC, with a horrid history of gatekeeping and elitism that is just now being addressed, it’s nice to see other communities trying to address it while expanding. I believe that many people who cry “gatekeeping” and “elitism” have experienced it much worse somewhere else before to the point it drove them away; souls games, 2D fighting games, fps games, etc. it’s possible many people here who are angry in the comments are extra sensitive due to previous negative experiences. I have made previous attempts to play Dark Souls 1 in years past, only to (excuse the language) meet complete assholes who would withhold even the most vague advice when I would express exhaustion over what to do to get through the Undead Burg, Taurus Demon, and the Parish. I don’t want to be told what to do, but I really thought just saying “I need a little help here please” was no big deal. By the time I expressed frustration in the early parts of the game and went to a forum to find help, snide messages and vague responses about “keep looking around” just drove me away and I damned the whole community. It was a mirror experience to improving in fighting games. With the help of a very kind friend, we found a middle in-between organic experience and hand holding and I’m finally making my way through Dark Souls 1. I will say that already it is a gaming experience I will never forget. I literally just beat Ornstein and Smough with a summon and my +5 Zweihander. One of the most hype moments I’ve ever had in a video game. Nothing anyone would ever say will take away from that 60th attempt that was finally successful. Most people who attempt to play a souls game really suck at them, like completely hopelessly suck at them. But they are still trying their hardest, and will spend entire week’s worth of play session just to get from one bonfire to the next. Every single enemy becomes a boss in the name of surviving for an extra 30 seconds while taking days to understand what’s going on. With me feeling like I’m in this crowd I’ll say this; the players who just suck but still play and soldier on, we are trying our best. We want to enjoy what the game has to offer and not abuse a mechanic to get through it. We didn’t mod in difficulty sliders. And Im sure many don’t see any part of their experiences and struggles in the sea of meme videos and deep discussions about niche stuff in someone’s 20th play-through. Players who struggle and suffer, but still carry on and progress just want to be heard and validated in a community they are trying to fit in to. I really enjoy your newer videos and discussions, and look forward to going through your video catalogue.

Here's my take, you dont need to understand everyones reasoning behind why they disagree with you are not. No matter how wholesome or non condescending or non "leetist" you think you're being, someone is going to have an issue with it. That's the way of the world.

There are two properties of the human brain that activate in this discussions: laziness (to preserve energy), and ego-defense (when a cognitive dissonance occurs). Example: I looked up how to reach the Haligtree, because I'm too lazy to wander around aimlessly. If you tell me, this hurts my fun, that means I'm in the wrong and that hurts my ego. Now my brain looks for alternative explainations (where I'm not wrong) and it finds one. You are gatekeeping. Of corse, I get that this does not make me be wrong. Just want to examine the mental processes behind this, as I am a student of psychology and this is quite interresting.

Personally, my first game in the series was Dark Souls Remastered. I looked up guides for the game, but rather than looking up the locations of powerful weapons I watched more relaxed guides where the player would take their time to explore and collect items. My reasoning was that the game was said to be difficult, so I decided to research good ways to mitigate the amount of frustration that it would cause. It worked, but I have to admit that after a few years of playing these games I can't help but regret not just playing the game completely blind the fist time. But on the other hand I doubt that I would have stuck with it if I hadn't known the location of merchants and other important things.

Personally, I have fun both playing the games without looking up anything and searching up information. My first "souls" game was Dark Souls which I played though complete blind with a few hints from my older brother who recommended it. I loved it but when I played Bloodborne I ended up looking up information. Dark souls and Bloodborne are my two favorite games from the series and I played them each very differently. So I believe it all just depends.

people who comment ''i paid'' or ''i can play how i want'' or ''stop crying cuz i don't play how you like'' are so incredibly insecure and close minded. They are the sole reason I actively bully and gatekeep because they take themselves so seriously and they are so sensitive.

Honestly, I agree with your take on going in blind, I only wish I had seen your video before I started my playthrough of Elden Ring because I think I'm falling into the same issue that your friend did. There's nothing wrong with your opinion, its a good insight, and I don't know why people are reacting so strongly to it either. Glad you stood your ground and keep up the great content.

Love the content. Glad you posted back to back! Can’t get enough.

I love this calm way of debating with your audience.

It’s okay man. Don’t let the crowds get to you! Love the content!

I think a lot of people on the "it's by design" camp never played dark souls 2. Miracles in DS2 were phenomenal in the first few days of the game. Lightning spear had 10 casts and did like, 300 damage with minimal scaling. Next update, they got hit with the nerf hammer so hard they went from "really good" to "worthless" when they dropped to a whole 3 casts and almost half damage. From has a really bad track record with balance, both PvP and PvE.

People love to click on a discussion video and tear apart a completely different theoretical argument while they wait for the preload ad, your content is great, keep it up king

It's crazy that there is even such discussion on this topic, at all. Back in the day I used Solaire as help in O&S Fight and I didn't feel like I "cheesed" the boss. But nowadays there are so many elitists that if you don't beat the boss without summons/heals/naked with foot over your neck you are not a good player, or you "cheesed" the boss.

For what it's worth, I started DS1 and followed a guide and enjoyed it a lot, then moved on to Elden Ring and did a little blind and then looked up some stuff, and now I want to try what you suggest with future From games. After many hours I somewhat regret knowing all that I do about ER. I love Elden Ring, and I do want to know everything about it, but I wish I went in as blind wretch because I can't go back now and learn it all for myself, other's youtube guides have stuck in my brain and I can't unlearn it. I just didn't expect I'd feel that way, and I want you to know you convinced me to try something else in the future.

I think your previous video was perfectly fine! It has encouraged me to ditch online resources in my own playthrough and I find myself actually enjoying the game more because I'm not just ticking off an extensive shopping list. I can echo a few of the others here where I think everyone has very different definitions of what "cheese" is, which is made even more complicated by having a souls like rpg set in an open world. Hats off for you offering your take on the discussion, and getting people talking. That is what really matters!