Well done. I am a recently retired controller from that area of ZDC after 30 years in the DC-NY corridor. It was a very challenging and rewarding career, with awesome people.
Bless you 🙏🏻 Dang I would have got ulcers and lung cancer from coffee and cigs. That’s fn stress without being in the cockpit ya have even more souls on your shoulders 🇺🇸
Just a note on this i was in my early 30s when i came back to the states and was contemplating a carreer change to ATC and unfortunately found that i was too old to go through the training. Which was a big bummer.
Cool story. I used to pretend I was doing pattern work in a Cessna while sitting on the toilet, including making radio calls through a karaoke machine. I still do, but I used to too.
Reminds me of that private jet that flew from france to germany and ended up in the sea between denmark and sweden. just a few months ago. they were also intercepted. fighter pilots had to watch when the jet ran out of fuel and tumbled into the sea below
Juan. Why is nobody talking about this Citation flying that incredible distance without being in contact with a controler? He had to be on an IFR fight plan and would have had to be in contact with center etc?? I have seen nothing as to when they lost contact with him. ?????
Relying on aircraft to hear radio commands from intercept aircraft by listening to 121.5 MHz is a huge weakness in the system. While some pilots do monitor 121.5 MHz, they are in the minority and doing so is completely voluntary.
In my 47 year world-wide professional flying career I found the NY Center controllers to be the best in the world. NY area approach and tower controllers tied with Atlanta for their best, respectively. Those guys and gals may sound overloaded (and sometimes are) but for the most part are just doing what it takes to get the job done. I believe that one of the prerequisites for assignment there is to demonstrate the ability to breath through their ears so they never have to hesitate in their comm instructions. Thanx for all they do!!!
Hi Juan, aside from this tragic event, I just want to thank you and inform viewers of your dedication to your task, away from the beautiful weather in London today!
Welcome to the UK Juan! I know you might get here quite often but as a Brit I just wanted to welcome you personally. :) I grew up in south London so I know that part of London pretty well. I have gotten away from London now and live a quieter life in Cornwall. Thanks for bring us this vid. I am looking forward to the NTSB report on this one with interest.
@ 8:50 right on the money, you have to allow TCAS to do what it is designed to do and not allow other humans (ATC controllers) to interfere until you are out of the danger zone. This lesson has been learned from several fatal accidents in the past.
My response to a pilot advising me he was following a TCAS RA was “ Roger”, (traffic at whatever position it was at), then, “advise when returning to assigned altitude “. This was the standard phraseology a few years ago.
Well done to the controller, he handled it like a champ. Having an F-16 going balls-to-the-wall, throttle firewalled, through busy airspace can't be fun to manage.
@Phillip Banes Yeah... The only way it could get any better is if they'd let ME have the stick... BUT alas, none of the pilots were COMPLETELY batsh*t crazy that day... haha ;o)
@Phillip Banes Well, in the 90's I was still young... and had only ever really spent time in "a flying go-kart"... SO I can't really complain. It was still fun, though. ;o)
Thanks Juan for taking the time from your busy schedule to break down that Cessna's flight and intercept...condolences to those families for their loss.
My hats off to all our guys and gals in the ATC system. We may curse you under our breath in the cockpit at times, but we know that without YOU..... none of this would ever work.
Talking about stress, I can't imagine what it was like for the F-16 pilots that followed the Citation knowing that they could do absolutely nothing. My father was an air traffic controller in the Navy. In October, 1969, as our ship headed into Pearl Harbor, he suffered a minor heart attack. In the blink of an eye, his career was ended. He had intended to become a civilian ATC following his retirement just 4 years later. He became a janitor for Ma Bell after retiring. Did that for 20 years.
Wow my uncle was air traffic in Navy at Pearl Harbor toooo..he had just walked out of mess hall when it got hit! They called him Stormy. Bet my uncle knew yours. He was in Korea, WW11 and Nam. Retired, became a bartendar in Vegas for awhile at The Dunes. Man could answer every question Jeopardy threw out, said it was a great way to keep mind sharp lol it didnt work for me, i miss most answers
@@rhondaeverett8284 Dad was Army Air Corps/Air Force at the end of WWII. Was stationed in Berlin at Templehof during the Airlift. Was out from '49-'54 and then went Navy. He was aboard USS Ranger for 3 cruises to Vietnam. He retired in '73 with 23 years of service.
I imagine it must get pretty stressful for the controllers and pilots in the area when you realize you have two F-16s on max afterburner rocketing across your paths.
Great breakdown Juan of this unfortunate incident/crash. I REALLY like the fact that YOU specifically aren’t ALL wrapped-up in TRYING TO SPECULATE AS TO ‘WHY’ this aircraft was in distress..and led to the downing and loss of 4 Souls. ANOTHER pretty popular Yt creator-pilot/instructor SHOULD take notice and consider a different approach IMO. Thanks for being a cool head and voice of reason in the GA world Juan..
@@keithhoss4990 I believe that NORAD also scrambled F16's out of Andrews Joint AFB . Those were most likely the ones causing sonic booms as they raced to catch up.
@@keithhoss4990 a lot of conflicting reports on this intercept. Dan Gryder ("Probable Cause") says the first pair of f-16's got on scene just northeast of Baltimore, were well under the target a/c, authorized to go burner but only one did and for no good reason. They were ordered not to approach until it was past d.c. because it was seen as not a threat.
@@lyleparadise2764 only one went to burner and apparently for no good reason although they were authorized to do so. A pair was also dispatched out of South Carolina but they were too far away to play a role.
My dad was a controller. He told me that on a busy shift, his airspace is crowded and hes covering another controllers sector while he's on break. He notices 2 aircraft headed directly towards each other. One was an airliner, the other was a Navy fighter. I think it was an F4 Phantom. He adamantly commands the fighter, "[the F4's callsign] REVERSE COURSE IMMEDIATELY" Watching the F4's contact on the radar scope, he said it had been moving towards the airliner, then it stopped, then on the next sweep it was heading in the opposite direction. He didn't turn left or right, I assume he just pushed in the throttle and pulled back on the stick, flipping upside down and reversing the aircraft. I always thought that was a cool story.
I just watched a movie called "Aftermath" that was based on that event. I guess the father of one of the victims ended up murdering the controller who was on duty at the time even though it wasn't his fault.
@@pi.actual correct, DHL followed TCAS, the Russians followed the controller (day late and dollar short), and flew right into the 75. After that both the policy to follow TCAS over controller, and automatic reversal of TCAS commands if the other aircraft does not comply. And the controller was technically at fault, though there were systematic issues contributing.
Apparently, there were some F-16s that took off from Andrews AFB - BRAVE 01/02 (F-16 DC ANG) to join the intercept. The Baltimore-Washington DC area has heavy traffic at all altitude levels.
Thanks Juan. After listening to Dan, I do now wonder about the situation more broadly than a pressure fail. It sounded like this PIC was quite the stickler in his operations. For the sake of the passengers I really hope it was a pressure issue. RIP.
No disrespect to our respected and revered friend Mr. Gryder here, but I think he's way over-reaching in this case, and taking as given facts not in evidence. Yet. He seems to have launched his analysis on the Paine Stewart crash in 1999. Just because Paine Stewart's airplane's windows frosted over, doesn’t mean that's the set-paradigm of how all airplanes, at all times, under all conditions of depressurization will work. Payne Stewart’s crash does not comprise a rulebook of how failures progress. And Stewart’s airplane was flying cold way longer than this Citation did. Maybe (probably) moisture in the Citation's cabin is better contained than in Lear jets flying twenty-five years ago. There is little outside humidity at that altitude, so that wouldn’t really be a factor either. (If memory serves there were plenty of Muroc-era jets in the history of the development of turbine (and rocket-powered, even) aircraft where the pilots wore pressurized suits because they were sitting in unpressurized cockpits… where the insides didn’t freeze up.) Too many assumptions, and too much certainty here on Dan's part. Who knows, he may in the end be proved right, but it’s too soon to jump to the types of conclusions he jumps to in this. And: entirely unnecessarily, to boot. There's no reason for him to feel this right, this early, in the matter.
@@desiatohotblack His analysis has nothing to do with Paine. He had actually done a depressurization himself and the windows fog over as the air can not hold the moisture due to lack of pressure and it becomes a fog. Now with a slow loss the system might keep up with the moisture but most likely not as it would only bleed air. That pilot was also a trainer and expert in pressurization and hypoxia for South West. That plane would also have to blow past the Master Caution and Master Warning. His evidence is also reported by the F16 pilots, it is heresy but the other info from said person rang true, ASI also reported the same findings regarding pilot made by F16 pilots
Yep, that's why you want someone like the popular Kennedy Steve when things are extremely busy, or things is about to go south. His ability to handle huge volumes of air traffic on the ground or in the control tower, with ease is legendary and I love to watch his ATC videos on RU-vid. 👍
Very cool to see something I helped work on get used here. The KACY live ATC feed was once hosted by yours truly at my house. Working with Dave over at live ATC we eventually got the equipment moved to the airport proper before I moved back to Memphis. It took forever to get the airport to approve it and I remember troubleshooting some interference in my house with Dave in person when he flew down for the day. I love seeing this being used for something so important. On a side note. I used to host the KMEM live ATC feed too out of my father's house. Unfortunately he passed away in 2020 and I had to sell the house but I was able to get all the gear to a local ham radio club through Dave and that equipment got put in a highrise down town with LoS to KMEM. I'm hoping to get back to hosting a feed soon targeting the olive branch municipal airport in northern ms. Hoping to do that by end of summer. On a side note Dave at live ATC is a great guy and I learned a lot of radio stuff from him. I imagine you have met him too already Juan
Jaun, please try to report on the epic forest fires in Northern woods of Quebec and Ontario. It is a horrific situation. They finally deployed many Ariel resources from the US. Only after days and days
I wonder about what route you took to get to London as NY has been smoke as thick as pea soup. They had to put many flights on hold. Terrible everywhere in the Northeast.
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy nut job, but I saw this the other day... is it not strange that they all seemed to start at the same time? Intended fires, perhaps? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qCO1EDshq2I.html
There have been massive wildfires in Northern Alberta and Saskatchewan for more than a month as well. There have been tens of thousands of people evacuated, communities destroyed, and it has been having a major impact on air quality across Canada and the U.S. There have also been impacts at least on GA, I had to cancel my CPL cross-country due to the smoke and I am sure many others in the aviation community are being affected as well.
Great report, Juan, even though you're on the other side of the pond. I noticed someone asked that you consider reporting on the fires in Canada. My best friend lives in Edmonton, and I guess the fires nearest him are to the west... But I understand the ones to the east are causing havoc with the healthy air monitors.
I live in Edmonton. Fires around here are under control. We had some smoke for a couple weeks, but it cleared up quick after some rain. It's a bit smoky again from the northern and western fires further out, but nothing terrible.
I know it's not exactly what you do, but could you possibly do a video on the Canadian wildfires and air quality issues. As usual the mainstream media can't seem to get it right.
I'm reminded of the Actor's Studio interviews with James Lipton (they were excellent BTW), specifically where he asked "and what profession would you not like to do?" My response would have been instantaneous - ATC!😉 Another great video Juan👍
The rapid fire talk in the DC region is nothing new, I've heard the Potomac and Philly approach controllers talk like they are auctioning vectors to a hornet's nest of aircraft. And I have been here and had an engine problem at night, during an evening push out of Philadelphia, so I know how bad it can get. Nevertheless, it is controlled chaos. But throw in a supersonic formation flying sideways through all that traffic and --yeah, I'm sure everyone's blood pressure went through the roof.
It’s the aircraft owner’s / lessor’s discretion whether or not to require two pilots in his owned or leased aircraft. Considering the passengers on board his decision was short-sighted. It appears he chose to save a little money on his flight crew. Especially considering that the passengers were completely incapable of rendering assistance in an emergency. The whole situation is sad, to say the least. It is also apparent that a whole lot of people acted with utmost professionalism.
My thoughts exactly. If someone can afford the luxury of owning one of these jets, then it really would be wise to pay a little more and have a second pilot. Even if it's just a rooky looking to get some hours in.
The pilot had excellent credentials, I would have been very confident with him single pilot vs two lesser experienced pilots. Before and after the crash obviously changes things as its easy to judge the owner after the fact, he thought he was doing the right thing hiring the best of the best. I personally will not fly anywhere with a vaccinated single pilot of any age.
@@HairHelmet I totally agree, that guy was an extremely experienced pilot, just the kind of pilot you would want. But I can bet that have been many multiple of instances where a pilot as had a medical emergency and the second pilot simply took over and landed the plane. Does not matter how good your captain is, if he or she succumbs to some kind of medical emergency, and there is nobody else on board capable of flying the plane, well, everybody on board is going to die. But if there was a second pilot, even a rookie, the outcome would be very different. It is not about looking at this accident with hindsight at all, it's about looking forward and learning from the past. Even if just one owner/operator learns from this incident, it could well save lives in the future. Take commercial aviation, it learns from past accidents, GA really should do the same.
@@100SteveB It's really a tough call all around, we more often than not see dual pilot accidents when it comes to jets (unrelated to medical events). It's not uncommon for older pilots to pass a medical with a wink and a nod. Young pilots make poor decisions until they live through enough close calls to respect the profession (like the trainee I barely avoided in the pattern last night). The crash in question would have been prevented with a co-pilot... and maybe with a better AME as well.
Thanks for your insights on this! There are lots of people doing videos on this and of course I’m watching them but only a few I’m really taking seriously one of the few being your videos
Great job Juan. I fly out of KVKX which is within the DC FRZ and you have done a great job illustrating the complexities and responses when the FRZ is “busted”.
Thank you so much for the explanation. As a former German Army Aviation Pilot (Helicopter / 2.500 hrs PIC} I appreciate your channel. And to all student pilots: Please stay out of IMC, check the weather carefully, do a proper preflight-planning including fuel consumption to alternates, have alternate Frequencies on your knee-pad and so on... Believe your Instruments! STAY OUT OF THE SOUP! Sometimes it's better to stay on the ground and enjoy a cup of coffee instead rigging the shoulder harness. And don't trust to luck... Michael
Very nice report! Does anyone know the actual flight path of the F-16 that BOOM the area? It boomed me pretty good and I am in Owings MD a bit South of Annapolis. Would love to know how far I was from the actual flight path if anyone knows.
F16s reported the condition of the pilot, but still no information of what the cabin looked like. Shades up or down? Anybody visible? Any of the windows fogged, even if the flight deck windows were clear? Do news people think this doesn't matter, intentionally not reporting it, or too clueless to recognize the missing information?
Juan I'm always impressed with you analysis of an incident. I'm not a pilot (so to speak) but rather a recreational drone pilot and I had to learn a lot of commercial lingo. You always give a good detailed description of an incident.
Wait. What? I’m 57. You’re saying a controller has to retire at 56? That is crazy to assume that because of one’s age they automatically cannot do the job. Talk about ageism.
I wonder why the intercept process wasn't started sooner. Since the Citation was not in touch with ATC, I presume ATC was watching to see if the plane would follow its clearance and begin an approach to its filed destination, KISP. If the pilot were still flying the plane, he would have begun a descent probably at least 50 miles prior to KISP. As soon as the plane did not begin a normal descent for approach, I would think ATC would have come to the realization that there was no pilot in control and thus would have had reason to call for an intercept even before the plane got to KISP. I'm not saying the outcome would have been any different; just wondering what ATC's thought process was. Any thoughts?
I’ve been wondering about this too. They were able make it to Ling Island, NOT descend for a landing, turn 180, and basically head back to point of origin and fly for quite awhile before they were intercepted. If it was a nefarious actor, NORAD was too little, too late yet again…
most likely they thought it would continue out over the Atlantic ocean until crashing. I'm sure the turn over Long Island was not anticipated and pegged the panic meter.
Dan Gryder keeps saying this was not a pressurisation issue, but that the Pilot suffered a medical event. While I respect his opinion, I think it is wrong in this instance. A medically incapacitated pilot does not account for absolutely no movement observed in the cabin. Are you telling me no one would react to the F16 very close to them, popping flares? That the passengers would just sit there motionless, with a pilot obviously slumped over AND unresponsive for some time. No one would go up to check if the pilot needed a drink, or why he wasn't responding to calls for information? I'm betting this was a pressurisation problem. Enough to lower the pressure to asphyxiate the occupants, but not low enough to allow the windows to frost over
There are too many aural and visual alerts in the 500 to have a slow unnoticed leak. Sleeping pax don’t move around much, neither do those that are buried in their iPads. If the curtain was closed for privacy, folks in the back might not have noticed anything wrong.
Thanks Juan for the update. If I was in London at the moment for sure I'd be heading for some fish and chips. Been since 1962 when last I was in London and remember the fish and chips fondly.
Wow, I'm amazed the F16's actually have TCAS installed. I'm assuming it can be disabled during combat missions. Wouldn't the TCAS constantly be alerting during an intercept? I assume it really really wouldn't like having another plane at the same flight level a few hundred yards to the rear on the same track.
The F16s didn’t have TCAS - only the airliner did. The TCAS equipped aircraft still gets a vertical RA as long as the other aircraft has at a minimum a mode C or S transponder.
@@tomnguyen8546 Oh wow I stand corrected then - do you know what block aircraft that got intro'd into? Is it full on TCAS II that gives RA's to the pilot or just the simpler TCAS I that gives TA's only?
A long time ago I decided I would not be a good pilot. I have great hand eye coordination and quick problem resolution skills but I could never keep up with the controllers. They are a completely different brain skill from me.
I was visiting with family on Sunday, in Virginia and we heard a rumble, thinking it was was a distant thunder storm. Turns out, we were about 1.5 hours away from the crash site. Also, local news suspects hypoxia.
excellent breakdown of the audio chatter converted to layman's terms, good stuff. Those fighters flying hot out of NJ buzzed right over our house in Annapolis and it was no joke. Again, hats off to our air traffic controllers as well as our service men and women involved. My condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones.
My niece lives in Long Island and her husband is a major regional air traffic controller. I believe he handles anything coming and going over the Atlantic. I can easily see how the NE corridors would be high stress and super busy.
@Phillip Banes What? Long Island (Nassau/Suffolk - not counting Queens and Brooklyn) has a population of almost 3M. There are two control centers on Long Island... one at McArthur Airport in Islip (Suffolk Country) and TRACON in Westbury (Nassau County). Yes, Queens and Brooklyn have a population of almost 5M between them but rest assured many of those controllers (especially Islip) live in Nassau or Suffolk county.
Hmm...so the F-16 can't see more than 40 miles ahead on their radar. If this was real combat with jets flying around at 500 to 600 mph. Is are technology that limited ?
F-16 APG-68 / -83 radar has a range over 150 miles, but that's just a radar return blip. It's a whole nother thing catching up PHYSICALLY beside an aircraft and looking inside.
From what I've read ATC lost contact 14 minutes into the flight. From their point of view it could have just been a communications issue the plane was on course and not violating any airspace until it turned around.
As stated above, the flight was on a filed flight plan. In case of communication loss the procedure is to continue as filed to the destination, especially in busy airspace. The only red flag would have been the pilot did not squawk 7600 on his transponder......the ICAO code for lost communication.
@@dryan8377 so you can fly the flight plan and when you get handed off you don’t have to do any radio calls and when you get handed off you can ignore it while flying the flight plan. I call Bravo Sierra.
Yes, but why did the intercept take so long? They had the target coordinates and weren't that far. If I could drive it in an hour they could be there in 10 minutes. Don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing - just asking.
It might be interesting to note, that TCAS alerts are also sent to the ground via your Mode-S transponder. So the controller should be able to see this in real time. I haven't seen recent scopes, but I assume there is some kind of symbology. Being an ex-AWAC guy, we didn't have Mode-S or GPS in my day 🙂
👍🇺🇸 I think back pre transponder when Tulsa approach put a 707 and I on collision course. CAVU day and i saw him and confirmed my clearance twice, but finally dove abruptly to give clearance. HEADS UP, situational awareness👍👍🇺🇸 lesson learned for the next 40 years
I assume that NORAD informed the relevant ATC centers that they were requesting the F-16s to fly to intercept the Citation. I wonder why they waited until the Citation had been flying for more than an hour without any ATC contact.
Greetings , Juan . All of the Thankful Your here to teach and give very good advice from before me .Awesome comments ,I 2nd them. This is tragic ,can Anybody`s do something with your older plane that could prevent this . Mortgage the plane to update the tech on it it will last longer so you can leave it in your will., Flying is a Privilege All Prayers for this Family. My condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones.
Years ago I saw an F-16 flying supersonic over Pyramid Lake, Nevada, headed northwest. It was at night, so it was quite a show, with that glowing exhaust and the sonic boom. He flew low over the lake, then went into a steep climb. All over in seconds.
I was at EAFB and I saw a fighter flying miles away over Rogers Dry Lake Bed. My friend says, that s gotta be supersonic. Then it rocked the Huge hanger door next to us. Damn. Lot a surface area to catch that pressure
My hearing issues mean that I could barely understand anything, but I appreciate your dedication to providing us with this sort of information in the interest of better understanding for the general public and increased safety for those who fly.
Why is the emergency communication happening on an active frequency!? Why haven't ATS changed all aircraft to another frequency and controller to keep the intercept and emergency channel free? That's the procedure here.
As long as the ATC folks get good training and they hire those with great speaking skills it seems we will be better off. I can't understand when they hire folks with heavy accents or simply do not have good speaking skills...not good.
I really hope this was a loss of cabin pressure incident. My nightmare is that the pilot died due to a heart attack or something and the passengers just sit there helpless....yikes.
great explanation juan. When you are immediately stepping in and transmitting as soon as the previous read back comes through is one sure sign that ATC is feeling the stress.
You are correct. ATC is A high stress job that can prematurely age you out. After 31 years I retired at age 55. I could have gone longer and since they were giving waivers past age 56 due to low staffing levels, could have worked two or three more years. I’d had enough stress and walked away. I’ve haven’t regretted it for one second. It was a great career but now I only worry about getting the garbage out on Thursday mornings for the garbage man. That’s all the stress I want.
Thanks to you and others like you for keeping me safe. I spent lots of time in the air before I retired, and I never worried. About flying, that is! 😂😂
That's got to be one hell of a helpless feeling, watching a plane next you, probably able to see the pilot slumped over in the seat, as you follow for miles hoping they regain consciousness only to watch them slowly drift into the ground.
Big fan of the channel here. I'll agree that the Bos-DC-Nyc corridor is a young man's game, but I'm doing just fine at 58 years old still controlling traffic at my little tower! 😆
