There are many options for holding tools in a CNC mill with an R8 spindle, but which is the best? In this video we compare all the options and talk about why some are better than others.
Thanks Adam for the very informative video. The graphics were on point. I use the TTS system on my CNC mill and have been very happy with them. I mostly use the set screw holders for 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" endmills without flats. Tool pullout has happened but it is very rare. I am not doing production work, so I don't try to push the system right up to its limits.
about 10 years ago one of the original founders of Fadal CNC was making and selling mini CNC machines as a hobby in his retirement. He used R8 spindles with the tool holders only being the taper then a pull stud. Idk how good they were but definitely an interesting method for CNC.
First I’m hearing of that. If the pull stud gets pulled up into the taper w the exact same force every time, my feeling is that it should be just fine. So if it’s an air cylinder or springs, probably fine, but if it’s the draw bar that is tightened manually by an operator, could be a problem. Cheers!
@@adamdebowski2037 I found his name which is also his yt channel name "DAVID DECAUSSIN" he named his method the Cat R8. I remember people on either a cnc forum or practical machinist forum being wary of it because a standard 30 taper tooling gets it's security from the length of the taper, and supposedly on r8 the 0.950" diameter section at the end of the shank is suppose to make contact with the walls of the spindle to help prevent the short taper from pulling out. Idk how true that is but it's always stuck in my head.
@@CanadianPenguin_ thanks for this. I’m checking it out now. I love discovering these little packets of info from people who have a ton of knowledge in our little niche. I also love fadal machines and wish they were still around. It’s going to be hard to get my hands on one by the time I have more garage space… and 3 phase 😂
Great explanation. The geatest drawback to the TTS system is the chance for pull-out especially when using a power drawbar. When hand tightening the drawbar with a wrench this much less an issue.
Cheers! I hope it helps somebody. Agreed. I’ve gotten pull out before (was trying to see how hard I could push it) but it pulled out from the ER collet, which has nothing to do w the draw bar. You had the holder pull out of the adapter collet?
@@adamdebowski2037 Yea, 3/8" endmill pulled out during contour. Have to keep a lighter DOC. Mine is PowerDraw bar, so its only the spring washer stack pulling up on the drawbar.
@@piccilos Gotcha - I got pull out w a 3/8 endmill, too. Was progressively taking wider widths of cuts at 1/2 DOC & 3000 RPM with like 0.002” IPT. I think it pulled out around 0.080” WOC.
The greatest drawback IMO is the exorbitant price of TTS holders. I use a manual mill, and I'll stick with old fashioned R8 collets until I win the lottery. The 15 seconds to change tools isn't a biggie for me -- though of course I see why this isn't appropriate if running a CNC due to the Z-offset variance.
Nice video. Early on, I hated the time it took to chame R8 tooling for the reasons you pointed out. I did my research and settled on the Royal EZ Change system both at home and at the school workshop. It seems to provide all the same benefits of TTL, with the added benefit of not having to manipulate the drawbar at all.
This is the first time I’m hearing about this system - it looks awesome. Taking the draw bar out of the equation is a big win. No accuracy/rigidity issues?
@adamdebowski2037 I've not noticed any accuracy issues. I have come across caution statements regarding high loads with large bits over 1 inch diameter. I use a fly cutter with good results, but I tend to use light passes.
heeeeeee's back. :P so i had the tts for my round column mill they were pretty awesome. My new mill has mt3 tooling...which is pretty darn rigid. i had to buy all new tooling...and make a pnuematic tool changer for them.... so that was poop...i ti is wicked quick though also.. i will do a video as soon as i find a new motor :P..oh and my new used mill motor died the first day i got it and its a metric shaft. :P. nice to see you back sir.
I'm a cheapskate and from Europe. Most mills sold here have a Morse Taper 3 (MT3/MK3 not R8) and ours come with a 10 mm metric-thread-drawbar not the 3/8-16 thread. So they can't even use the TTS MT3 adapter (without changing the drawbar which makes the mill incompatible with already available tooling). I am currently working on building out a CNC from such a mill, and my solution is this: Ditch the TTS system and instead go for a MT3 20 mm collet that will live fixed in the mill. Then I just by C20 tooling (20 mm shaft tooling). There are face mill arbors for 20 mm, insert tooling for 20 mm (equivalent to the shear hog from Tormach), boring heads for 20 mm, sliding saw arbors for 20 mm and most importantly er-collet holder for 20 mm. I do lose the fixed tool lengths, but I can just touch of on my tool length sensor each time (takes like 10 sec). The advantage is I don't have to modify the mill and I save a TON OF MONEY compared to the TTS system (factor 3 at least (you do lose the quality guarantee, but there are always trade-offs, and it hasn't bitten me yet)).
Haha - I’m a cheapskate from Canada! Sounds like a pretty good system. I love using collets when I can - little one off stuff where I have to set new tool height with - regardless of whether it’s in a TTS holder or in a collet. Do you ever run into problems by not being able to set your stick out exactly the same every time? Like chatter if you stick it out further than your feeds/speeds might handle? Or get worried about running into fixture bolts or something?
@@adamdebowski2037 So far I haven't had a problem. Most tools are in an ER collet, so it's almost the same as the TTS and since I touch of the length the small difference in height have never had me crash. And for the tools that go directly into the 20 mm collet, I just back them in as far as they go (most have shafts that are too long anyway) and from there it's the same story where you only have minor length differences that the tool length sensor corrects for. Stiffness isn't really effected.
I obtained 19mm mt3 collet on aliexpress. Can’t find link now! So I can use genuine tts plus China knockoff tts. Can’t remember draw bar thread but it only goes in once so not much of burden when going back to mt3 tooling. Admittedly 19mm tooling is less frequent out of China. Have been able to find er20 and 16 tts collets plus shanks for boring heads and face cutters
I already started down the TTS tooling after trying to limit cutter sizes. Now I can't seem to have enough tool holders for cutters. I tried the diamond drag but went to a #0 carbide center drill after barely scratching hardened steel.
@@adamdebowski2037 Not yet. I only go up to .005" depth. I still break out the diamond bit if I engrave aluminum or softer metal. But stainless and tool steel get the center drill.
I use only imperial end mills, but only because they’re the most available in my area, and because I work mostly in imperial units. If I lived in Europe, I’d be using metric everything for the same reasons. You can also mix and match if that’s easier for you for any reason. From a performance standpoint, one isn’t “better” than the other. It’s just preference.
Should I buy TTS system($55 for adapter + $25-50 for one holder) or should I stick with R8 collets I already have and buy cheap chinese tool height sensor($35) for my home CNC? Tough choice... no, not really. In my opinion, may be TTS save some time on tool change, but not enough to spend a ton of money on it. If you plan to install power drawbar, then it is a different story... there probably no other options for R8 spindle beside TTS.
If you don't mind the tool change time, sticking with R8 collets is by far the best option. A cheap tool height sensor will likely have a few thousandths of error in repeatability, which, under the right (or wrong) circumstances - like using two different endmills for finishing different parts of the same floor - will be apparent. For $35, though, I would definitely try it out. It might be fine, and if it isn't - you only wasted $35 to find out. Another tool holding system, which I found out about after making this video, is the Royal EZ Change system. Looks like it might be even better than the TTS, but it ain't cheap.
All the typical 7/24 type tool holders are the best, thats why most industrial machines use them. Most of these have tolerances around a few tenths. The TTS compounds errors.
You might be confusing BT - a spindle geometry - with TTS - a tool holding system for the R8 spindle. Most hobby/bench mills like this come with R8 in North America, so you cant use 7:24 BT tool holders in them. Though I agree they’re better! They’re also much more expensive and in my opinion, would not be well suited to a cheap mills like this.
@@adamdebowski2037 Not confused at all. The original poster talked about Tormach going to BT 30, which is a common 7/24 taper. And Yes I know there has been a lot of light duty machines with R8 taper . I am surprised you missed all that .
@@adamdebowski2037 the guy who uploaded the video. He goes on to condemn other tool holders. At 1.14 he claims the R8 tool holder holds better than ALL other tool holders. After hearing that, for me, no point in watching the rest. The GlockCNC website has good info on the most popular tool holders, as he manufactures spindles.
@@adamdebowski2037 that would be you. You said at 1.14 that the R8 has better holding power than any other spindle type. Well that's an opinion, but If you look at the NT30, which most popular machines of 5HP have installed, all over the world, you can buy collets alone for that type spindle, you don't need a tool holder.
I disagree the R8 setscrew holder what is called (solid holder/ end mill holder) you do NOT NEED A FLAT and can set the set the tool in the holder at any length, each there own, i prefer them holding end mills! and one can buy alot more tool holders vs the over priced TTS system! TTS = $$$
Really?? That’s interesting - I would think pull out would be a big problem that way. I’ve had an endmill pull out of an er collet - can’t imagine a set screw gripping it tighter.
Yeah gotta say in my experience with set screw BT40 holders, endmills with a steep helix angle (3 flute uni for example) and high chip load will pull right out in harder materials without a flat. You will probably get away with it in softer materials but it isn't worth the risk. @@adamdebowski2037
