I work closely with a local factory Ohlins dealer and tuner, so I went full Ohlins on my SB160. The TTX2 Air and TTX22 coil both feel excellent on the SB160. I also tend to prefer the air setup on the SB160 but love both setups for sure. I’d argue that getting your suspension tuned for your body weight, ride style, and the bike is the absolute best way to go about it, regardless of air or coil choice
Agreed. I don’t know if most people have the means to get custom tuned suspension. Would be amazing if it was easier to find. Dialing in your setup is the next best thing.
@@bikersedge I think just knowing where to look is the hard part. I work with Revolution Factory Suspension in NW Arkansas. Fluid Focus is a great option on the west coast. The cost is certainly cheaper than new suspension and makes the bike feel much better. I really appreciate your reviews! You’re one of the best for sure!
Great job on this! Second channel I've ever hit the notification bell for. I watch every single upload, even if it isn't something related to my riding because it's clear you put the time and effort into your content.
I put a SDLX Coil on my 23 Smuggler from new, bumping the travel to 150/140, have been very impressed with how it feels, not having ever ridden it with an air shock and this being my first coil in a decade, your info has me intrigued to try an air shock, although I'm unsure whether the Vivid fits!
Good video. My only comment would be that although bikes come with air shocks they are sometimes low end and want upgrading anyway. So if upgrading then cost might come into it. I think a vivid air would cost about £650 vs a coil at around £500. Coil might require a couple of different spring rate coils to get dialled so you might lose money if you buy wrong one. I'm about to install a sdu coil on my levo but that's mainly because I got a fair price. I think I'll consider picking up a vivid in future when second hand market is more well stocked. Keep up the good work.
Thats why on my ransom eride 920 I keep both shocks RSSDU and RSSDUC both RC2T for different things. Air for flow and jump trails, coil for chunk and dh trails.
This is a great comparison video! I did some back to back testing on my 21 Spec Enduro at my local bike park with a Factory X2 Vs Push Elevensix S-build. I was significantly faster with the Push, but I did find the bottom of it on a couple of largish drops. I really liked your Rampage to DH World Cup comparison. 100% vindicated my field experiment! It's also worth noting that I also tried a RS Super Deluxe coil and I was slower than both the X2 and Elevensix.
I bought into the marketing hype and put a Vivid on my stumpy evo and it really like it. Its kinda a smaller bike for this type of shock but it's really helped me dial in exactly how I want my bike to feel since I mostly use it as a downhill focused bike. Side note, you've very quickly become one of my favorite bike channels because of the quality of your videos and presentation.
@@MrChadLedford Unfortunately no. Just the stock Float X. I've heard the SDU has a better tune on it than the Float X. I think if you 're considering the Vivid on your bike there's two important questions I think you should answer. Do you wish your bike would calm down when you blast through rough terrain? And how much do you value your bike having lots of pop? If you don't notice your bike getting squirrelly at speed then there's no reason to put a Vivid on your bike. If you do but value having a really poppy bike then you may still want to stick to the SDU. Effectively what the Vivid does to the stumpy is you trade a little bit of pop for a huge amount of confidence over chunky terrain. It is also worth mentioning you can put up to 6 volume spacer in the Stumpy Vivid so you could theoretically make it as progressive as the SDU (The air spring will still feel different but that's a different discussion). I ride a lot of rocky terrain so this was a worthwhile upgrade for me but I don't feel like someone who rides mellower stuff or values a lot of pop would benefit from it.
Interesting that you bottomed out on the Ripmo with DVO coil. I have the exact same setup (been running for almost 4 years) and I have never bottomed out. Good vid, thanks for posting this. Is that Park City? (Looks like Park City.)
I mean I try to bottom out multiple times every ride. I want to make sure I use all the travel I have. Harsh bottom outs are a different story though. The Ripmo is almost regressive at the end of the stroke. Paired with a coil harsh bottom outs are frequent.
@@bikersedge that's very interesting. I understand the idea of wanting to use all of your travel, that makes a lot of sense, but I have always felt like I might damage something if I bottom out and clap it all the time. I have a Ripmo V2 and a yeti SB 150. Both have the DVO Jade Coil X. Both bikes perform incredibly well and chew up the bumps effectively, but The yeti feels a little bit "stiffer". That might be because it is running a 38 fork, where the ibis has the 36. But it might also be because of the way that the rear swing arm moves. They have very different rear suspension styles, and I bet it makes a bit of difference. But they both climb like Mountain goats on crack, and they descend incredibly well.
@@SpokesmanMTB I guess there’s a difference between a harsh clang and a gentle bottom out. I bottom out frequently. Maybe once or twice a ride on the bigger hits I’ll clang into the bottom. Suspension is designed to handle it. Bikes are pretty tough.
This would be great. I had the ultimate air on my 2018 altitude and loved it, I now have the ultimate coil on my Banshee and love it too. About to buy the 2022 altitude and really want the vivid.
I don't think anything rock shox makes is going to compare to the vivid... even Ext has put out the aria now. I think these new big volume cans are going to take over. Now we need you to test the aria!! It's on sale now maybe ext can have you do this with them! Specially because their coil is crazy good
Nice review. I had swapped my bike to full coil front and rear last year. As I’ve progressed, I have gone back to air. I feel the air suspension is more supportive, more poppy, and feels more efficient while pedaling. The coil shock was very supple off the top but felt sluggish to me.
I would still argue the majority of how your rear suspension feels will be dictated by the frame kinematics. A shock can make a small difference in the big picture.
Great, objective discussion on the topic. I agree with the conclusion but I ride full coil (vorsprung smashpot in the fork too). I prefer the small bump sensitivity, better reliability and less required maintenance, lack of setup variability (temperature’s effect on air pressure), consistent/predictable spring rate through the stroke, and not needing to check air pressures before rides. Modern air shocks are so good these days though - they really are compelling!
Awesome video man I really want to try the new Rockshox stuff. I had the old lyric and super deluxe ultimate on my evil and honestly I was not a fan. But all of you guys that are hyping up the new generation of stuff makes me want to give it a second go. Thanks for what you do brother!
Thought about coil but instead went to a super deluxe with a megneg. After getting it set up glad I went with the air over coil. Great video by the way
So logical, bulletproof recommendations. Now bring on the coil trolls! But seriously, with all the benefits of air, it's curious that so many vehicles still rely on coil suspension. I suppose it comes down to cost and durability, at the loss of adjustability.
They’ll be coming out of the woodwork soon enough. Ha. To be honest I know negative 4 things about cars. Couldn’t even begin to speculate why they use coil suspension.
Simple and fast. Air shock absorber: It reacts better, you jump better, it adjusts easier, the bike is more explosive, it looks ugly on the bike. Spring shock absorber: you get a cuter bike with a racer look. And this is well known, I have a YT Decoy and I have two FOX brand shock absorbers. When I mount the spring the bike is a cannon but lazy, when I mount the air..... I have a new bike.
Thank you for this very good comparaison ! What do you think about Rockshox on the SB160 compared to FOX ? I rode a lot Fox on my Megatower II and make the switch to ZEB ultimate and Coil RS (the same you tested) and was very impressed how better it's work on this bike. The bike feels really more poppy, lively, really love it. Do you feel the same on the SB ?
Those coil VS air trail times are absolutely meaningless. Not statistically significant at all. It's more likely that since you said you road the trail first with the coil shock, you just knew the trail better for the air shock runs. Next time, if you are going to do time testing, it would be wise to do multiple runs with each shock switching it up in between. If you did something like 6 total runs, switching shocks each time then maybe the time data would actually be worth something
Sure. That would have been far more accurate. That said I did a few days pre-riding both trails and over the years I’ve ridden these trails over 100 times each. Certainly didn’t learn them by riding the coil first.
Yes agree. I was staring at my bike with a coil, but its turn it i love big jumps atc. and i try to switch to Air shox and i love it. really good example with Rampage vs DH race
There is also a variation in coil shocks: linear vs progressive springs, and HBO. You also mentioned in the comments, frame kinematics, which is probably the first thing people need to look at. Some frames can obviously handle both air and coil easier. I have a bike with both air and coil. The coil took a few coil weights to get dialed, but also my body weight (variation of +/- 8lbs) puts me in between coil weights. Sprindex can cure that issue, but it can be finicky overall. Coil does retain consistency in seasonal temperatures. I also have a Secus on my 160 Fox fork. It achieves “similar” benefits as a Vivid (more linear until bottom out) with added volume to create softer off top and better midstroke but also creating more “effective” travel before progression kicks in). Vivid Air benefits are very clearly stated in your video. Def considering this as an upgrade.
I'm currently playing around with a Manitou Mara Pro rear shock on my Propain Hugene. It comes with a large volume air can that is very linear (like a X2 or Vivid) but there is also a lower volume air can available which makes it more progressive. It's a good comparison since everything else is the same. I'd be interested to see someone compare to two.
@@bikersedge I think the Hugene is borderline not progressive enough for the large volume Manitou King can (X2 and Vivid don't fit), but I found the stock fox Float X to be too progressive. I just put the smaller volume can on (right before getting sick) but haven't ridden it yet. Initial impression is that the smaller volume/ more progressive can better matches the fox 36 up front though.
@@bikersedge yep, with the larger can and max volume spacers it works pretty well with LSC almost closed (2 clicks from closed), and HSC around the middle. I could close HSC more and I may end up there. The smaller can is still less progressive than a float x, and they went on sale so I picked one up to play with.
So curious, your survey on Rampage riders versus DHWC riders, why not a survey on Enduro riders? I bet they might be half and half or more on air side. Just because most of them have to climb to the top and I suspect they hate wallow in climbs. I bet most riders want something that would climb well too and good mid stroke support for the climbs. Great video...
I did it to prove a point. Rampage is quite possibly the burliest MTB event in the world. Goes to show that coil isn’t necessarily burlier than air like a lot of people think. Comparing the two events shows different demands require different setup.
Very insightful comparison, thank you! I think it strongly depends on the bike's leverage curve though - you're right that the SB160 is better suited for coil than the Ripmo, however, it still has "only" some 17% of total progression, which let's an air shock seem more suitable. I'm riding a bike with a total of 27%, with the curve starting fairly progressive and getting really steep progressive towards the end. I'm running it with a Superdeluxe Air right now but I feel that I don't use the last part of the stroke in whatever situation, unless I lower the pressure that much that the bike starts feeling sluggish and the shock misses midstroke support. I already kicked out all the volume spacers to make it less progressive, unfortunately the Superdeluxe Air also has hydraulic bottom out, which cannot be adjusted, so the shock still ads more progression in the last 25% of travel. When I ride fast through really rough terrain, the rear end of the bike starts to feel very harsh. Since the Vivid doesn't fit in my bike, I decided to try the Superdeluxe Coil now.
speaking of the heat disspation, from a rider myself on 2021 fox float x, the overheating is quite noticable. 3km downhill-ish + jump line during summer (25-30 Celsius) makes my shock untouchable. and riding quality towards the end day becomes not as pleasant as the begining of the day.
Not something I’ve experienced too much. It frequently gets over 100f here and our descents can be on the longer side at 5-10 minutes. Weight, bike and terrain could make that vary though.
I have both air and coil shocks for my e bike. Where I ride a coil shock is best uphill because it’s so rocky. I use air shock on bike park days to help with jumping and stuff. Interesting enough I ride my coil shock in the winter alot! Better traction and don’t have to worry about check air pressure. But definitely when I go to snowshoe I’d slap on coil. Only takes 10 mins or so ti swap it.
I hate constantly checking on pressure with air shock, ambient temperature changes pressure, heat build up in damper increases pressure, just don't want that trouble
Great comparison. I ride both and always go back to the coil on my V4 Bronson....I just can't get the same grounded feel from the air despite all aspects of tinkering. I too am a bit curious why 80% of DH elite racers ride coils. Eg. If we interview them, their coaches and mechanics.... something led them all to that well so to speak....
In my mind it makes perfect sense those folks would ride coils - better traction and the cons of coils don’t really apply to their demands or situation.
When I’m smashing chunk at speed the coil feels so much better. The Spire with a coil is so good. Run air on my ebike and every time I get on the Spire it feels so amazing. I prob wouldn’t run the coil outside of the PNW/BC to be fair. At the end of the day it’s all personal preference although on the average trail with the average rider air is easier to maintain forward momentum and does just fine with traction. Long story short I agree with you but damn I love coils 😂
Great video! Really appreciate your insights. Have a Ripmo AF and both DVO Jade X coil and Topaz air. Agree with your conclusion, the air is more versatile and likely the better choice for most riders. I don't leave the earth much so I prefer the coil. Plush and grounded, pick coil. If you want to get air, go air.
Not only do you avoid bottoming out on an air shock, you can tune the shock by messing around with psi. Easier to change the suspension without changing the spring.
I come to the same conclusion with my Ripmo on a coil shock. I really liked it for that "stick to the ground" feel, but overall it was sluggish even with an appropriately sized spring. Excellent for park days, but that's only a few days per year. I switched to a Super Deluxe Ultimate air shock and wow, what a difference! Better in almost every way. I notice a bit more chatter over fast chunk in the first part of the stroke, but running at a tad lower pressure with faster rebound makes it tolerable.
The high volume air shocks ride pretty much as smoothly as a coil for most people. My bike has an X2 and it rides as smooth as any coil I've ridden, mine is also a bit of a special case being a RM Altitude with its insanely progressive back end, which lets me run no volume spacers in the X2 on regular trails and I only toss in one for riding park.
Awesome video, thanks for upload. One thing that I noticed is that there is not too many videos with comparison of rear shocks. Please make more videos where you are comparing rear shocks. For example Fox Float X vs RS Super Deluxe and also air vs coil for Fox shocks. Keep up with good work. Greetings from Serbia!
Great video with some interesting perspectives. I agree about most of it, and ultimately it's down to the bike, rider and trails. What about rider weight though? Would heavier riders benefit more, or is that just plain wrong / a non issue?
Hey thanks! A heavier rider could potentially benefit from a coil for heat dissipation. I’m 200lb and ride some long and rough descents. I don’t notice heat issues with modern air shocks. A bigger rider or a rider with really long descents might enjoy a coil. Otherwise I don’t think it’s too big of an issue. The performance won’t inherently be better on a coil for a bigger rider.
Awesome video! Another video idea could be suspension tuning. Sometimes people need their suspension tuned for their weight,bike and riding preferences instead of continually buying new shocks/forks.
One step ahead of you! Working with some suspension geniuses on a “suspension for dummies” series. I totally agree that proper setup is the most important part.
I’m liking what everyone is saying about the vivid, I’m currently on a 1st get megatower with a super deluxe ultimate air but I’ve got a megatower 2 frame coming shortly with a new vivid. I’ve not been able to find much info at all with people running this setup but everything I’ve read and seen I’m pretty confident this is going to be a solid setup
I have the SB160 as well. Currently on the X2. But, I'm on the verge of buying the Vivid to replace the X2. I just find myself getting the X2 so close but then misses the mark. Basically some days it feels better than others. 3 Volume spacers I found is best for traction with lots of compression, 4 Vol spacers for more playful poppier and better midstroke for climbs. The X2 seems to be finicky, then add in cold temps and forget it! But yeah, seems the Vivid is a much better air shock for the SB160, have you tried the X2 on that Yeti? I also know Fox is recalling all their 2021-2023 X2's which includes mine for brand new 2024 shocks with new internals. I might do the recall and sell it, but looking for insight on the Vivid for the SB160. I already know air is my thing, I'm not against coils but here in 4 corner states, NM, CO, AZ, Utah where I ride, I also value climbing capability, especially for backcountry riding.
I ran the 160 with the X2 for quite a while. I prefer the vivid or super deluxe. I’ll be running it with the vivid from here on out. If you like the thought of coil go for it. I really don’t think it makes the bike climb any worse.
@@bikersedge Well, it sounds like you like it with the Vivid. I like a poppier bike. The only advantage I see of coil is that no matter the temps, the bike will perform the same.
Agreed. That will make a big difference. At the end of the day your frame kinematics, not the shock you run, will determine the lions share of your suspension feel.
you mention having to buy multiple springs as a negative, i agree. then you mention the sprindex spring but also as a negative, rather than a possative alternate to buying multiple springs. it is a spring with a minimum and maximum spring rate which you can adjust by twisting the adjuster. the lb rate increases or degreases in 5lb intervals, a possative compared to the understandable negative comment about standard springs being available in 25lb incraments.
@@bikersedgei appreciate you didnt say sprindex is bad but you mention it as an alternative then say its just one more thing to set up, in a way which sort of comes across as a negative. having just bought the super delux and a sprindex i agree sprindex comes at a cost compared to buying one standard spring, in the case of a standard rockshox spring, a srindex is tripple the cost, with a coil shock there is still going to be atleast one spring to buy and a quick look online, the vivid air shock would have cost me more than my coil plus the sprindex combined. i dont ride at a level where i could tell people who choose coil that the sprindex is the way forward, for me it was. as one spring manufacturers spring calculator advised a 550lb spring and a leading suspension specialist advised 600lb. my guess is both are probably wrong and optimum is somewhere inbetween the two, meaning the quick adjustability in 5lb increments of the sprindex is ideal. im not trying to argue the pros and cons of coil over air, youve done that informativley, knowledgably and elequently. i think people will do like me and take your information onboard and make an informed choice based on your information, personal research and ultimately personal preferance. 😁
Thanks for another really good video!! What do you think about replacing the standard air shock of an Orbea Rallon for a coil? They come as standard on their higher end models, and the bike being already pretty stiff, maybe this specific case, it's the way to go?
It could work. I had a Wild that I was trying to get dialed. Felt rather firm to begin with. I tried a coil and an air shock. Ended up preferring the air shock because I was able to run more sag but pack it full of spacers to help with the bottom out. Was the happy spot for me. I liked that more than the coil. With the coil I couldn’t run as soft of a spring as I wanted without bottom out/wallow problems.
I have both, sdu coil on my nomad and vivid air on my ebike. Both feel really good and definitely apply to each bike for what they are. Only thing im confused on is when to add hbo versus just trying to adjust lsc or hsc so for now its just open. Maybe i need less adjustment!!😂
HBO is only going to affect the end stroke. Compression will affect the entire stroke. If you’re diving into the mid stroke too easily add some compression damping. If you like the off the top and kid stroke but only want some bottom out resistance then add HBO.
The problem with the vivid air, it doesnt have the size i needed, 8.5x2.5. 😢 i think the problem with the air shock is it heats up so bad, For me st least. I think shocks you use depends on the type of riding you like to do.
Not sure thats the direction I'd go for a smuggler. Could be good, but at some point you're going to be better served by a Sentinel if you're looking for DH capability.
Id love to hear your guys opinion of the new Marzocchi shocks or forks. Been riding 30 years but not huge fan of the overly complicated suspension systems. Need a refresh on my Tallboy 4 suspension and looking hard at the newish Marz stuff for price, ease of use and performance.
For the price it’s really tempting. It’s not the fanciest or highest performing, but in the big picture your actual suspension components (given they’re not complete trash - which marzocchi is solid) make up a pretty small percentage of your ride quality.
@@bikersedge Ill be honest Ive had Fox Grip 2 and Pike Ultimate that I never got working for myself as well as the Fit 4 or plain Grip stuff. Also like I can get a Marz Z1, 36 mm stanchions in 140mm travel fork. That combo isnt out of the box available in normal Fox stuff.
Great video As a bike mechanic I think it’s spot on and what I always tried to explain to my customers. I went from a dpx 2 on my 2021 Stumpjumper evo to a super delux coil and the bike became calm and helped me a ton with traction control at higher speeds! I definitely lost some climbing efficiency but worth it since I could always feel the air shock getting overwhelmed by the end of the day of riding and on rock gardens! The only tricky part with coil shocks in my opinion is getting the correct spring rate
So if DH prefers coils means coils is better on trails and enduro then and you are noy used to coil and vivid shocks mimick coil shock try the usual air shock if its still the same. Whats interesting is DH competition are more on time based race and you said you are faster on air shocks? So are you saying all those racers are wrong?
Not necessarily. Enduro racers have different demands than DH racers. Diving deeper, even within a single discipline, individual riders will have different demands based on their bike, riding style and terrain.
@@bikersedgei see so we may see more vivid shocks on enduro as it is half downhill and uphill, for me Enduro Bikes is a relatable bike that can do day to day trail, does downhill and climb too. And relatable on consumer like me as it showcase capability and how strong the parts is i really wish they add some jumps aside from the usual single track
If it answers your question I sold the X2. The vivid suits my style of riding much better. Softer off the top, better traction, better end stroke control.
@bikersedge copy. So you wouldn't have any worries about buying this air shock? I ride basic trails and rarely downhill stuff. Most of my down hill is 10 minutes and under. I just had bad experiences with Fox Float and I thought of a coil. But sounds like this air vivid is good.
Excellent job and breakdown. I have a 2024 Canyon torque on E freeride e bike. I currently have an X 2 in the rear. Do you think a vivid ultimate would help me. I am going to convert to a coil spring in the front too. What do you think?
@@bikersedge It feels really good should I just keep it or do you think a vivid would feel more like a coil. The bike is pretty new. Maybe I can just play with the tune?
Not sure what to tell you without knowing what you’re trying to accomplish. Again a coil isn’t “better” so it’s not always the right move to try to make your shock feel more like one. If you feel the bike isn’t plush enough I’d start with setup and tune on your X2 and then go from there.
@@bikersedge Right on I will try that first. My bike is already pretty plush being 180 front and 175 rear. It is an e bike too. I think I will stick with air front and rear and work on tuning the bikes suspension. I ride trail this time of year and summer I am at Northstar ski resort on the weekends too. I think I need to wait until I hit the bike park chunck in the summer and then I will have a better idea. 🤘
@@bikersedge I have a SB140 LR (29er) and the back end is great but it feels a bit too light if that's the right word. Actually what i feel on harder hits is that the back end gets a but unsettled perhaps under dampened somehow so was thinking the Vivid air would provide a bit more control to an otherwise great bike.
@@BogdanMiliu part of that is going to be the suspension kinematics. Changing the shock could potentially help but it’s not going to completely overcome how the bike was designed.
@@bikersedge ah ... so you're thinking that because it has a lower progression rate and less kick at the end it won't really be as settled a enduro bike would be ... interesting. I was hoping the Vivid with the HBO would handle that better and make it a bit more linear (the shock) while running a bit higher pressure and count on the HBO for the bottom out. I should say that most of the time the bike feels great. It's just on some g-out events at the end of a rock face for example it gets squirly ... i was thinking perhaps the highspeed rebound is not high enough for the PSI i'm running.
I don't think it's necessarily the progression but rather overall kinematics and where the progression comes in the curve. If you feel the bike isn't progressive enough, the last thing you'd want to do would be to make the shock more linear. Instead, you'd want to use spacers and add progression.
Put a coil on my megatower v2 mainly because the stock super deluxe only has 9 positions of rebound and I fall between two clicks. The bike has such good small bump compliance anyway I don’t think it benefits much from coil.
