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Colonial Berthiers: 1902 Indochina and 1907 Senegalese 

Forgotten Weapons
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The sharpshooters of the French colonial forces in Indochina (the Tirailleurs Indochinois) had never been issued Lebel rifles, and were still using single shot Gras rifles at the turn of the century. The Indochinese soldiers were rather short statured, and the Lebel was simply too long of a rifle for them to use efficiently. The colonial government requested a special weapon for these men, and the result was the 1902 Berthier.
The Berthier carbine was much more compact than the Lebel, and it was also less expensive to manufacture and simpler to instruct troops with. So after some brief experimentation, a version was produced with a 25 inch (635mm) long barrel, which was a nice balance between the carbines and the Lebel rifle. In my opinion, the 1902 is the ideal size for a Berthier, and I think it handles best of all the different variations made.
An initial production run of 22,500 of these 1902 rifles was made by Chatellerault between 1902 and 1912. A second batch of about 25,000 more would be produced in the 1920s, but we will discuss these in a separate video, as they were made with the 1916 upgrades.
With the successful implementation of the Berthier in the Indochinese colonial forces, it would stand out as an obvious solution for the need to upgrade the arms of France's African colonial troops as well. These soldiers were not short, but also had outdated Gras rifles, and Lebel production was no longer active by 1907. As a result, a further lengthened Berthier was suggested for the Senegalese troops, with a barrel 31.5 inches (800mm) long; equal to that of the Lebel. This was accepted into service, and 25,000 were manufactured by Chatellerault between 1907 and the beginning of the Great War in 1914.
With the urgent need for more rifles because of World War One, the 1907 Berthier (renamed to the 1907 Colonial and issued to colonial troops besides just the Senegalese as of 1908) would attract the interest of the military because it was cheaper to manufacture than the Lebel, and still in active production. The result would be the 07/15 Berthier, which would become a dual standard infantry rifle alongside the 1886 Lebel in the war.

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20 июл 2017

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Комментарии : 135   
@Taistelukalkkuna
@Taistelukalkkuna 7 лет назад
"Have you seen those new colonial Berthiers. They have curved stacking rods...curved...rods...."
@plitterusmaximus
@plitterusmaximus 7 лет назад
Taistelukalkkuna i used to be an adventurer like you. but then i took a 7.62 n round to the knee
@matthewharger221
@matthewharger221 7 лет назад
Taistelukalkkuna Hail summoner, conjure me up a warm Fort Douaumont, would you?
@jeffengland2791
@jeffengland2791 7 лет назад
victor plitt, Skyrim reference? Too funny.
@GeraudRulz
@GeraudRulz 7 лет назад
I love the optimism on these rifle sights. 2nd longest confirmed sniper kill in history is 2,475 m with an AWM. And yet they made the sights go out to this range with a Berthier incase one of the troops happened to be a super soldier...
@lsq7833
@lsq7833 7 лет назад
It was for volley shots, not SUPER DUPER ACCURATE SNOIPING.
@Ensign_Cthulhu
@Ensign_Cthulhu 7 лет назад
Mostly long distance massed volley fire by entire companies or battalions.
@daktari
@daktari 7 лет назад
Remember that those rifles came after black powder, round-nosed bullets fed rifles. The 8mm Lebel (and the following foreign ammo) seemed to quadruple the range of the average rifleman. You can likely maim an ennemy soldier at 2000 meters with a Berthier, if ever they use what the strategy of the time was : line assault. Granted, you're not hitting a lone soldier at 2000 meters, but in a large group of them, you're probably hitting someone. Then after WWI the reality of combat settled in, and most interwar rifles have more conservative sights.
@MrBioniclefan1
@MrBioniclefan1 7 лет назад
You have made a great point.
@charleswatson2088
@charleswatson2088 7 лет назад
Geraud Sansom nobidy call it awm noob it call awp and you 372 noscopsing wit it🤔😉🤣😎😎😉😂😋😎🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
@moritzbiegel8778
@moritzbiegel8778 7 лет назад
Waited for the "war were declared" clips like with c&Arsenal :D
@TwentythreePER
@TwentythreePER 7 лет назад
I have to agree that the 1902 Indochina is probably the best iteration of the 3 shot Berthier. The 25" barrel looks just the right length and the bent bolt handle would stay out of the way. Too bad they are more rare than usual Berthier rifles but maybe I'll find one some day.
@robertbenson136
@robertbenson136 7 лет назад
Ian you have plenty of rifles with stacking hooks. Please take 3 outside and show us how they work.
@DanielWW2
@DanielWW2 7 лет назад
This is just getting to the "wannaby Dutch" levels of different carbine models. :P
@MrBioniclefan1
@MrBioniclefan1 7 лет назад
No kidding
@MeFee100
@MeFee100 7 лет назад
"War were declared", that sounds familiar ; )
@carlmaki
@carlmaki 7 лет назад
Futurama reference? Need to get that 5% military discount.
@BennettIsAmazing
@BennettIsAmazing 7 лет назад
Was waiting for the cannon fire sound effects
@polygondwanaland8390
@polygondwanaland8390 7 лет назад
all your berthiers are belong to us
@Thebluebridgetroll
@Thebluebridgetroll 7 лет назад
Carmichael Fong It's C&Rsenal, a gun history channel cataloging (or attempting to catalogue) all the guns in the war
@jeyendeoso
@jeyendeoso 7 лет назад
BOOM ratatata *tank reversing* beep-beep-beep-beep
@renaudfabre4791
@renaudfabre4791 7 лет назад
The name "tirailleurs sénégalais" (senegalese troops) referred to all black africans french troops and not only to those of the current Senegal.
@eliane2743
@eliane2743 4 года назад
A good analogy in English to the French term “tirailleur” is the use of “rifle” in the designation of British colonial troops like in Burma Rifles or King’s African Rifles, who are the very counterparts of the “tirailleurs indochinois” and “tirailleurs sénégalais” mentioned here. As a footnote, French Indochina encompasses Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam - or rather Tonkin, Annam and Cochinchina which are the historical three parts of Vietnam. As to the size problem that locals had with occidental equipment, I remember having read that when South-Vietnam troops began to be issued US stuff, it was common to see soldiers floating in M1 helmets and surplus uniforms or struggling with Garand rifles.
@desroin
@desroin 7 лет назад
If that short rifle had a 5 round clip, it could have been a pretty damn superior gun for it's time I'd think
@ricochetoconnell3186
@ricochetoconnell3186 7 лет назад
Very nice vids as always ! :p Thanks to you i'm "learning" the weapons history of my country very easily ! Many thanks to you !
@JB-ym4up
@JB-ym4up 7 лет назад
Stuff clip in rifle. Work bolt. Fire gun. Amen. Gun Jesus has spoken.
@MrBioniclefan1
@MrBioniclefan1 7 лет назад
LMAO
@YCCCm7
@YCCCm7 7 лет назад
It's a magazine, not a clip, dummy. Jeez.
@WolfoftheAurora
@WolfoftheAurora 7 лет назад
No, it's a CLIP that is fed into an internal MAGAZINE. Like a M1 Garand or Mondragon.
@IntroSpectre6x3
@IntroSpectre6x3 7 лет назад
@Wolf You're missing the joke.
@troy9477
@troy9477 7 лет назад
The Berthier system certainly seems to have an advantage over the Lebel, except in capacity. Carrying clipped ammo in pouches is more efficient as well as quieter, and loading should be much easier and quicker than loose ammo from pouches going into a tubular magazine. The riflea/carbines are more wieldy too. Anything over about 9 lbs should be forsaken; the infantryman has enough to carry already. All the variations and the thinking behind them are very interesting. Great video as always. Thank you
@fhsreelfilms
@fhsreelfilms 7 лет назад
"War were declared." I love the little C&Rsenal reference there. :-)
@chzzyg2698
@chzzyg2698 7 лет назад
I was constantly waiting for the old WW1 footage with sound effects everytime you mentioned "war were declared." lol
@Lilletaitunefois
@Lilletaitunefois 7 лет назад
God I love when Ian speaks French ! This serie on french's berthiers is awesome ! Hope to see some shooting videos of them Keep doing this fantastic work !
@ch0k1ngh4z4rd
@ch0k1ngh4z4rd 7 лет назад
Ian needs to do a 2 gun match with a Berthier rifle and a Bergmann pistol. Memetastic
@eisenkrieg553
@eisenkrieg553 7 лет назад
Thank you Ian for lessons learned. No need to be considered Forgotten Berthiers
@maximelozach9502
@maximelozach9502 7 лет назад
Well, close enough on the tirailleurs, but eh, at least you're making the effort, and give visibility on French small arms history, so no biggie, keep up the good work! Hope we will see a Bergman-length series on it :D
@connorxfor2838
@connorxfor2838 7 лет назад
Should it phonetically be "teer(rolling r)-eye-yer?"
@EvanLax95
@EvanLax95 7 лет назад
Connor Xfor I found that his "leur" wasn't so guttural nor did it trail as much as if he was saying "leuurrrr" When he said the "chin" he should've also had a more accented "sheen" pronunciation. Either way, that's nitpicking at its highest extreme and the amount of love and respect Ian gives French small arms is unmatched by most of my fellow Americans
@maximelozach9502
@maximelozach9502 7 лет назад
in phonetical alphabet, it would give you [tiʁaiəʁ], so the nitpicking is around the pronounciation of the "aill" part which sounded more like "euil", and maybe the "eur" where the "E" sounded a bit exagerated, but as was said, he's trying, and I kinda don't care, given it's 3 seconds on more than 12min of quality content.
@Zorglub1966
@Zorglub1966 7 лет назад
try :TI - RA - YEUR like "heure" (hour)
@davidwallace5738
@davidwallace5738 6 лет назад
Thank you sir!
@demonprinces17
@demonprinces17 4 года назад
So good watching again
@Radlerstriker
@Radlerstriker 7 лет назад
Hey Ian when you get to the Berthier MLE-M-16 carbine can you do a complete disassembly of it , including disassembly of all the stock components, I have one of my own which is unfortunately in pieces and I need to make a list of all the parts I need to gather for it. Thanks , Matthew
@hazakdds7366
@hazakdds7366 7 лет назад
Thanks Ian.
@GeraudRulz
@GeraudRulz 7 лет назад
Gun Jesus has brought us a new video!
@juggr-naut3196
@juggr-naut3196 7 лет назад
praise the lord
@TheMrPeteChannel
@TheMrPeteChannel 7 лет назад
Geraud Sansom Amen!
@daisyruin
@daisyruin 7 лет назад
Pass the ammunition.
@jeffengland2791
@jeffengland2791 7 лет назад
Hallelujah!
@DaveSmiffy
@DaveSmiffy 7 лет назад
mon Dieu. We love gun Jesus.
@thegoldencaulk2742
@thegoldencaulk2742 7 лет назад
On the subject of the en bloc clip, it really was the cutting edge technology for soldiers of the... less educated variety. The idea that all your ammo is pre-packaged, easy to store, and incredibly fast and simple to load made it almost idiot proof for (relatively) small armies like the Austro-Hungarians in WW1 to massive super-powers like the United States in WW2. But man, that inability to partially load seemed to kill the idea. I guess you could say it sort of lives on as the detachable box magazine, in a way.
@anthonyclark9159
@anthonyclark9159 7 лет назад
TheGoldenCaulk as it should, considering it's a much better system.
@EuropeYear1917
@EuropeYear1917 7 лет назад
"... until, of course, War Were Declared." - Othias from C&Rsenal (** cue video clips of WWI with big orange lettering over the top that says "War Were Declared"**)
@balood
@balood 7 лет назад
who disliked this video and why??????
@okaro6595
@okaro6595 7 лет назад
Some Boche.
@SmilingJack626
@SmilingJack626 4 года назад
A heretic.
@donn7261
@donn7261 7 лет назад
Ian, did you see that really nice Dutch Beaumont Model 1871 bolt action, that RIA has in the next auction ? It's the first one I've ever seen.
@TheRogueWolf
@TheRogueWolf 7 лет назад
It's funny that every recorded world-record sniper kill (except for one, at 3.5km) has been under 2.5km, almost every one using specialized modern weapons and ammo and top-of-the-line equipment... yet the bolt-action rifles of that era were sighted with the apparent expectation that any random conscript should be able to make killing shots at that distance with iron sights.
@blakebramley9171
@blakebramley9171 7 лет назад
Two words: volley fire
@jodc2760
@jodc2760 7 лет назад
Actually the colonials (Indochinese, Senegalese, others) used Kropatschek mle.1878 alongside their Gras 1874. Thank you
@Renma2010
@Renma2010 7 лет назад
I wish I could afford to travel and wasn't terrified of it, because I'd love to go to a meet up. I really enjoy your videos because I too have a legitimate passion for firearms, mostly in terms of the mechanics, design, sounds (all the little intricate sounds firearms make essentially) and history. Watching your videos just sort of fills me with knowledge that honestly I don't know I could get anywhere else. Anyway, really great videos
@JohnsonLobster
@JohnsonLobster 7 лет назад
"Tirailleurs" is just the word that was used for colonial troops (up until WW2), it's not to do with sharpshooting.
@vrisbrianm4720
@vrisbrianm4720 7 лет назад
Tirailleur can be translated as skirmisher or sharpshooter. It was just a military designation, they weren't necessary have to perform these roles
@tamirspivak9434
@tamirspivak9434 7 лет назад
When a video about 2 guns is shorter than a video about their 1 predecessor
@plitterusmaximus
@plitterusmaximus 7 лет назад
hes so wellspoken.
@CaptainGrief66
@CaptainGrief66 7 лет назад
Can't wait to see the WWI versions or the ones with the 5 shot mag (1907/15?)
@jodc2760
@jodc2760 7 лет назад
The 07/15 is with a 3 shot mag, the M16 (or 1916) is with a 5 shots mag.
@Gunsbeerfreedom87
@Gunsbeerfreedom87 7 лет назад
War were declared.
@SNOUPS4
@SNOUPS4 7 лет назад
Why 23.99 dollars and not just 24.00 for the shirt? I mean, I do actually know why, but come on, trying to perform such a mind trick is not really necessary with us fans... :) Anyway, thank you for a grat series of videos, Ian, you're the best and we love what you do!
@shermonruler
@shermonruler 7 лет назад
What was the purpose of the battle sight zero at ~9:45? Was it just easier to use in close ranges or something?
@charlesinglin
@charlesinglin 7 лет назад
Who can fathom the thinking of ordnance departments? It seems like the Berthier, especially after they finally got a five round clip, was a better rifle than the Lebel, yet, it gradually became accepted by way of equipping troops who "didn't need" the standard infantry rifle.
@davidtong2776
@davidtong2776 7 лет назад
"war were declared" LOL Love it.
@ROGUE-Two-Actual
@ROGUE-Two-Actual 7 лет назад
Wonder if any of these kinds of rifles ended getting used in WWII in the African theater, and when the japanese invaded Indochina/Vietnam. Or if the indo ones were even saw use into the Vietnam war by Vietcong. I know a number of left over Japanese weapons were used by VC during the war.
@sawyere2496
@sawyere2496 4 года назад
A huge proportion of VC weapons were French
@gyalpoirgyud4759
@gyalpoirgyud4759 7 лет назад
You're making me want to reinstall Verdun.
@sitnam9054
@sitnam9054 7 лет назад
Hey Ian, any reason you didnt start out the series with the Gras or the Lebel
@tatache5971
@tatache5971 2 года назад
I dream of an Indochina Berthier with a Berthier mousqueton saber bayonet. I wonder if they are compatible.
@Ben_not_10
@Ben_not_10 7 лет назад
he said "War were declared" YESSSSSS!
@kevinoliver3083
@kevinoliver3083 11 месяцев назад
You know you've watched too many of Ian's videos, when you look at a cartouche on a stock and say out loud "that's lovely". Seriously, I have learnt to appreciate French weapons. I still think they make some odd decisions, but now I understand why!
@SpectreDM
@SpectreDM 7 лет назад
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Ian McCollum, the Messiah of Firearms, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Kalashnikov’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Browning”; another, “I follow Garand”; another, “I follow Stoner”; still another, “I follow McCollum.” Is McCollum divided? Was Browning crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Browning?
@Isaaclichtenstein
@Isaaclichtenstein 7 лет назад
I just think it's kind of hilarious they needed special rifles for the Indo-Chinese troops because they were short... XD
@brucemccreary38
@brucemccreary38 7 лет назад
Isaac lichtenstein Randy Newman wrote a song in the 1980's called "Short People," a wonderful song.
@Isaaclichtenstein
@Isaaclichtenstein 7 лет назад
@Bruce McCreary , i just watched it. thank you very much for blessing me with this wonderful song.
@martinflahertyv9353
@martinflahertyv9353 4 года назад
How much would a 'Ok' condition 1902 bertheir go for nowadays?
@doctoreff1
@doctoreff1 7 лет назад
Were any of these modern rifles made in Charleville? I use Charleville flintlock muskets to reenact the French and Indian war, as a colonial French Marine and I use them for Rev War as a soldier of the Continental Line. "Vive Le Roi"
@Zorglub1966
@Zorglub1966 7 лет назад
Hi, The factory has closed down in 1836, considered as too close from north and east borders.
@corvetteguy1980
@corvetteguy1980 9 месяцев назад
A lot of Indo-China ones saw service in Vietnam
@johnyricco1220
@johnyricco1220 7 лет назад
Hey look a split stock. Never seen that on a non-Arisaka before.
@MrKawabonga96
@MrKawabonga96 7 лет назад
What type of bayonet did the M.le 1907 use?
@ForgottenWeapons
@ForgottenWeapons 7 лет назад
A spike like the Lebel, but with a locking system like the artillery/1892 Berthier.
@serceew3326
@serceew3326 7 лет назад
Gun jesus at it again.
@Filion91
@Filion91 7 лет назад
An approximate pronunciation for the Tirailleurs Indochinois would be "tee-rah-yuhrr -- han-doh-she-nwa"
@l.f.c9973
@l.f.c9973 3 года назад
Wa iz im french british me dad is from monaco an me mum is from liverpool i was born in monaco grew up in liverpool i have duel citzenship i speak both languages and me grandad was a officer in the senaglise tiruraliers
@dndboy13
@dndboy13 7 лет назад
Short Soldiers? Ive seen that movie
@seanwarnock9757
@seanwarnock9757 7 лет назад
OK, kind of off topic of French rifles but Ian, what got you started in firearm history? Personally my love of history got started from interwar Battleships in particular German and U.S. What got you going with small arms, was it French small arms or something else?
@vguyver2
@vguyver2 7 лет назад
He didn't just see them as a kid, Ian's father collected them.
@scottroberts3158
@scottroberts3158 7 лет назад
I smell another bergman saga
@MrGrenadeMcBoom
@MrGrenadeMcBoom 7 лет назад
If you're going to say "War were declared" you have to throw in the cut with all the black and white footage.
@T_P56
@T_P56 7 лет назад
Press f for more french rifles.
@adonoghuea02
@adonoghuea02 7 лет назад
Is that N a nitro proof?
@ForgottenWeapons
@ForgottenWeapons 7 лет назад
No, it means the rifle was rechambered for thew 1932N cartridge. I will discuss that in a later video.
@adonoghuea02
@adonoghuea02 7 лет назад
Ah, forgot they had already adopted nitro with the 8mm Lebel.
@smarthomereviews-smarthome2643
Nice
@Mildcat743
@Mildcat743 7 лет назад
If you had to march to war with a French bolt gun today, would you rather a Lebel, an m16 Berthier, or a MAS 36?
@fiasco7P
@fiasco7P 7 лет назад
You could ask a french personne to says the french words. They would probably like to do this.
@joseantoniolago5857
@joseantoniolago5857 7 лет назад
I'm a atheist but believe in gun Jesus.
@jeffengland2791
@jeffengland2791 7 лет назад
Gun Jesus is spreading his message to the heathens one video at a time. lol
@Moondog66602
@Moondog66602 7 лет назад
Canadian Metis Man most people I know have no idea I'm an atheist.
@BestWeedVideos
@BestWeedVideos 7 лет назад
Me too
@royperkins3851
@royperkins3851 7 лет назад
irony kept the tube magazine for home service, give colonial troops fast loading clip fed rifles? does sound a little fishy!
@doctoreff1
@doctoreff1 7 лет назад
"Vive le frère."
@vstaritz
@vstaritz 7 лет назад
Looked up one of them indonesian on the internet and it's about 4.5k$ rip
@martinflahertyv9353
@martinflahertyv9353 4 года назад
ChocoboXii00 Lmao really?? I got one for 275$
@itsconnorstime
@itsconnorstime 7 лет назад
Did Indochinese troops in ww1 wear metal conical helmets?
@jessesands4099
@jessesands4099 4 года назад
The Rifles used to police French Colonial Rule in the 1890s and early 1900s!🙂🔫🔫🇫🇷🇸🇳🇻🇳🇰🇭🇱🇦
@basp-ef7jx
@basp-ef7jx 3 года назад
Why wouldn't they just issue the carbines?
@WangMingGe
@WangMingGe 4 дня назад
They still needed something long enough for bayonet fighting, I presume - also a lot of European carbines at the time could not mount a bayonet (not sure if this applies to berthiers).
@chhtt5532
@chhtt5532 7 лет назад
Can you translate the video in french please
@ForgottenWeapons
@ForgottenWeapons 7 лет назад
Sorry, but I speak only a tiny bit of French. Eventually, I would like to make a version of this series spoken in French, but that will not be possible for a while.
@chhtt5532
@chhtt5532 7 лет назад
Forgotten Weapons It's a shame a lot of french people are interested in your video, luckily that i speak english enough to watch your video
@genericpersonx333
@genericpersonx333 7 лет назад
A long and rambling story is about the only accurate description of the development and procurement of military firearms.
@reedpond6867
@reedpond6867 7 лет назад
WHEN I WAS ALL OF 6 MY GRANDFATHER GAVE ME AN OLD FRENCH RIFLE!!! IT WAS A 1907/15 BERTHIERS THAT HIS BROTHER BROUGHT BACK FROM WW1. I SHOT UP EVERY ROUND OF REMINGTON 8MM LEBEL AMMO I COULD GET MY HANDS ON!!! I WORE OUT THE CLIPS ONCE I STARTED ROLLING MY OWN AMMO!!! I SHOT A LOT OF WOODCHUCKS WITH MY BERTHIERS!!!
@christianterrill3503
@christianterrill3503 7 лет назад
All hail gun jesus
@colonthree
@colonthree 7 лет назад
Ian is /cm/ :3c
@ericksolum
@ericksolum 7 лет назад
Ian, did you know you were starting a cult when you started this channel?
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