agreed. A card being auto include does not make it ban worthy if it doesn't warp the format at all. Cards like low cost tutors, for example, completely change the format and make combo way better than it should be.
Flash makes sense over Hulk because it was a cEDH-specific ban. The combo itself is not super popular outside of cEDH, and in casual commander, Hulk sees more play. So banning Flash makes the cEDH community happy while minimizing the impact on the rest of the format.
wanted to comment this, leaving protein hulk unbanned was a gift to casual players since they like to play it manually. Flash was getting degenerate with thassa's oracle making the combo more consistent and harder to stop. That's why people wanted to ban flash specifically since it wouldn't affect casual play.
I think insane combo cards like flash and tinker that wind up banned in legacy or restricted in vintage have a pretty solid argument for getting banned in commander because they represent play patterns that wizards doesn't want to be a part of their game as a whole even at high levels of play
Flash died for the sins of Thassa's Oracle, not because of Hulk. Turns out, flashing Thoracle was harder for your opponents to interact, and Hulk saw some play on lower power EDH games, so the RC banned the card that only saw play on cEDH.
The reason they don't ban the best mana rocks is: Green. Green as a color identity is already too powerful to let it have a monopoly of the best ramping options.
@@Alessandro-mg9oh yeah, as well as other one mana ramp cards. And can easily have enough redundancy to ramp from turn one, consistently in a 99-singleton format. And if you go into other mana values,… even more ramp. The rest of the colors, don’t have that many options for ramping, only rocks. Ramp is such a powerful thing to do in the format to just have one color doing it consistently. The other colors need them to be able to catch up with green.
@@moralessanchezoscarelias6412 Sol Ring isn’t staying unbanned because of green. It’s because Wizards doesn’t want a precon (or in this case, all precons) to immediately be unplayable. However I do think that at least Sol Ring and Crypt are bad for the casual format, just like the cheap black tutors. I’m not gonna not play them because they are good (instead price would be why on just Crypt), but I wouldn’t revolt if I have to use Worn Powerstone and Letter Of Acceptance over Sol Ring and Arcane Signet.
Tinker is insanely too powerful, guys. Think about it...instant speed tutor that cheats mana cost in blue. It's an answer, a win con, and there is no comparison in any other color.
@@Someone-lg6di those aren't on the same level. Remember - Tinker costs 3 mana. Forgemaster is 5 mana plus needing 3 things to sac and you need to either wait a turn or grant it haste to activate. Planar bridge is 14 mana to do it all in 1 turn.
I don't believe in deck diversity bans. Imo, "deck diversity" as a balancing concept is something that should purely be moderated by your personal playgroup and not something imposed on everyone.
Emrakul is incredibly hard to interact with and it can be cheated out easily if it's in the deck. If it's in the command zone the game devolves into arch enemy just to stop it from getting on board
@@jeffnorris211 Ah the words of a person that has never been forced to sacrifice 6 permanents and have no answers to the monstrosity that is Emrakul. I find it cute when casual players think something super oppressive is fun, because one day they'll play against it and immediately go "what the fuck is this"
Flash is and will continue to be the problematic 2 mana instant enabler for all the LTB creatures they will print. Flash is the correct choice, because it will be broken with something else at some point.
So by wanting to ban the fast Mana rocks, you're essentially saying that you'd like green, which is already the strongest color due to its ability to ramp efficiently combined with the social contract's taboo on mass land destruction, to far and away dominate the format. The other colors, especially red and white, need those rocks to keep up.
I agree, people have been complaining about sol rings and Crypt for a long time just because they are autos and efficient but now talking about early rocks that color fix is just plain dumb. #LeaveTheManaRocksAlone
But you play sol ring and mana crypt in green desks too, because they are that good................ you're telling me you don't have sol ring and mana crypt in your green desks? I'll call you out on that one. has nothing to do with green being the best color. has to do with the power level of the card.
@@Djewell314 Gaea's is better in mono green / triabal / creature decks... this is problem. Its the same level on "power" in correct deck. Both can easy add 5-10 mana ... and problem with Gaeas is that green is super easy to have it in play every game becose of so many tutors for lands.... In blue/artifacts decks - most of time, you dont have so many options for tutor for Tolarian. You would need to add Green on Black to do it... Thisis why in my opinon Greas is more broken then Academy - and still both are ladnds that winds game, and both shoud be banned. On top of that - if you want now comptetive deck with green - 90% of time, you need to spend yours months salary for 1 card...
I think y'all're underestimating Gifts Ungiven. I've never seen it resolve and the caster not win the game. If the deck is built properly, there are multiple combinations of four cards for which any choice one's opponent makes off Gifts will win one the game. It's another situation where the only thing that stops the win is countermagic, which is a skosh uncool outside CEDH.
I love gifts to death and still think it needs to stay banned. 4 cards is a lot and like you said, if the deck is built right it will win off of one search. But there is also the fact being that you don't even need to get 4 cards makes it even more powerful. Sometimes the issue with intuition is that the opponent chooses correctly and makes you jump through hoops to combo off. With gifts, you can just have 2 combo pieces put in the graveyard and win.
yeah, all you need is sevines reclamation lions eye diamond underworld breach and wheel of fortune. boom you win by filtering through your entire deck. if they give you a hand with sevine you bring back breach, If they don't give you sevine then you flashback sevine and grab breach. EZ
In a format where you are incentivated to play 4-5 colors, cards that rewards you for playing monocolor a truly like it, and i would love to see more in other colors. Not only i would not ban cabal coffers, i would make card in that diection in monocolors that need a bit of help. Equivalents for monowhite (like emeria), or monored (like valakut), i think are healthy for the format. Incentivating not only playing the more colors the more card pool you have for your strategy. Also, cards that limit you 30 cards in your deckbuilding in exchange for a powerful effect are called build arounds, and are good and cool, without so many tutors surely are balanced.
In my opinion at least I think the difference between coffers and the other lands you mention is that coffers makes games feel extremely same-y. On the first couple of turns you tutor up coffers then play it and ramp out big mana threats. I think it hurts deck diversity and gameplay diversity
@@NitpickingNerds The monoblack comanders are the LEAST unique comanders( stats taken in the episode 104 EDHRECast). All monoblack deck have nearly the same cards, and thats another problem, i think mainly because black can do anithing, and has only restictions in paying life. I would ban Urborg before coffers, becuse it makes coffest busted (mana profitable with less lands), and can be used in multicolor decks, removing the deck restiction. Having said that, i would put Obliterate, Apocalipse, staic orb, stasis drecree of anihilation or demonic consultation wayyy before cabal coffers or urborg.
Urborg is the real problem, with out it Coffers is mono black only. I feel like spot removal for lands is a must in any deck anyways. I would ban urborg first
Coffers is the problem. One land shouldn’t ramp that much, and if it does, it should be green. It’s a build around specifically because it’s incredibly powerful. A better idea would be to ban some of the expensive lands that cover your mana while coming in untapped. Make multicolor decks more likely to have lands come in tapped and this slower and it will make mono decks faster.
@@yoyepo91 If you limit yourself to just one color and lose all the versatility of a pool of cards 5 times more wide, cards like cofffers balance that exchange. Think of it as cards like niv mizzet Parum, in exchange os a very restrictive mana cost, you get an overstated creature. If the price of deck building is really high, the rewards should be equivalent.
The best artifact for tinker to fetch out isn't blightsteel, its memory jar. The decks that would run tinker are likely cheerio decks like Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain. As a Jhoira player, i guarantee you that tinker would be used either to fetch out memory jar if my hand is bad, aetherflux reservoir if my hand was good, or something like nev disk or o-stone if the board needed to be wiped.
I think an issue with just taking a bat to all the top tier tutors is then you’ve got the colors that specialize in massive card draw being able to steam roll a little more. Also Black for example has a lot of second string tutors that would fill those spots quickly while White has no replacement comparable to enlightened tutor.
Another thing, the tutors enable jank combo decks to perform at a casual level. I play like 6 tutors in my Atogatog combo deck and it still unperformed at most tables.
@@robertmonroe1883 Or Flash / Academy Rector / tutor some game-ending ultra expensive and powerful late-game enchantment into play. With flash gone, you could maybe unban the extra turn Emrakul.
There are a couple of cards that you were considering un-banning, and I just wanted to point out a few things that you might have missed Erayo: hard locks the game, with several white cards that only let players cast one spell a turn. Flash: Arena Rector can also be flashed in, to go get omniscience. Gifts Ungiven: the trick here is to read the card carefully, if you only get 2 cards, both go to the graveyard, it can be used as a double entomb. Also there are several gifts piles that just win the game.
@@NitpickingNerds alot entomb is a tutor for graveyard decks my scion deck wins with just 1 creature in grave and mass revival or 2+. Scion mills bladewing then revive bladewing and scourge of vallas or terror of the peaks, instant win only pice commander doesnt tutor is the revival effect
Also, "I want the format to be as fun as possible." Literally wants to ban all my favorite cards which provide consistency in my favorite format. I'm glad your banlist isn't the banlist or I would probably not be playing EDH, despite playing since 2013.
@@kitbroughton3421 A turn 2 Braids can come from a 2 lands and a Dark Ritual. So Dark Ritual should be banned because it allowed Braids to come out on turn 2?
@@hiddenleaf414 Dark Ritual is not a permanent the braids player could sac in desperation. Its a higher investment than a soul ring or something similar.
I was literally watching the original banlist episode yesterday, I wasn't done watching it, and when I tuned in this morning to watch it. The video was removed. Makes sense now.
Flash got banned over hulk because flash protected death triggers in a really unintuitive way that can't be interacted with once it begins to resolve. And I personally think its interaction with the mana tripler scared the RC.
No, from a casual perspective yes it seems strong but no. Protean hulk is still a win con, if you are playing hulk, you will have a hulk win line (in cEDH). In more casual games it’s just a big value engine but flash hulking into a mana tripler is not the best thing you could do with it. It’s cool but not it.
I am going to have to hard disagree with most of your takes on your additional bans. 1. The argument that if a card is an auto-include it should be auto-banned is completely arbitrary. The only time this is appropriate is if it is a one-sided advantage like Lutri. 2. You cannot hold that an auto-include such as Arcane Signet should be bannable while at the same time complain that wizards needs to have better mana rocks, like you do in other videos. Arcane Signet is not a problem at all. It is a playable version of Commander's Sphere without the cantrip. 3. If someone plays turn one Sol Ring, they immediately become a target for the whole table. I'd say thats balance. Don't ban the card, just play more politically. Commander is meant to be political. 4. Banning tutors is asinine. They exist to make combo decks possible in EDH. Imagine trying to find a single combo piece out of 100 cards vs. drawing one of four copies of it from a 60 card deck. The tutors literally even the odds at the cost of card disadvantage. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these. Plus there are plenty of cards in the format that punish tutoring. Ob Nixilis, Opposition Agent, etc
Hey, I love your content but I wanted to clarify that Chaos Orb doesn't require that you rip it into pieces. I believe you're confusing it with Chaos Confetti. A lot of us used to run multiple Chaos Orbs in every deck back in 93/early 94 and it was probably the most powerful card in MtG at that point. Basically it's a three-colorless-mana artifact with "destroy between one and five target permanents" that you can recur (e.g. Archaeologist, Reconstruction, etc.). It was particularly devastating in land destruction decks of that era. The DCI banned it right away because of its power level and also for the ridiculous impact it had in tournament play, as people would literally tape their cards to the walls to nullify the effects of Chaos Orb. Realistically it should probably stay banned in EDH but it's still my all-time favorite card. Cheers.
I love how an anecdote about events from the 90s, which inspired an UN card apparently made that the actual card ruling. You flip chaos orb, you drop falling star. Idk why apparently the "tear the card up" is apparently the cardtext. Neither should be banned because they're super goofy. Again I guess this goes with Rule 0.
Dexterity cards are bed for black border magic because the game should be playable by anyone who can read, regardless of their physical abilities. Dexterity cards unfairly penalize people with differently abled bodies.
When I use tutors I normally get w.e is needed to deal with a problem but sometimes I do use them to help my board state. So is the episode just "no ramp no auto include"? Look I understand wanting to see different decks but come-on. Sol ring is fine. It's a 4+ player game. If someone gets a early game sol ring u have 3+ other people to put them in check.
I could do without Food Chain. There is a guy in my playgroup that always just wins with it in his Prosh deck and it is very anticlimactic and just a feels bads!
Uncounterable, flying 15/15 with Protection from Colored Spells and everytime it swings defending player must sacrifice 6 permanents. Nope, cant see how taking an extra turn and having a 15/15 uncounterable creature that has protection from colored spells can be broken in a commander format overrun with mana rocks, infinite mana loops and other ridiculous enchantments/artifacts to make emrakul invincible
I once had Cyclonic Rift into only one deck. A few months ago, the spike in me realized that this card was an auto include in all blue decks, so I put it in all my decks. Thanks to you, you made me remember why I only put it into my most competitive deck. I just removed it from every other blue decks and I feel better !
the only argument i make for keeping sol ring in the format is that it can be a great top deck for someone struggling to hit enough land drops to stay competitive
@@Tracker947 not only that, but it goes in literally every deck. Nobody is missing out on playing it so I don’t see why it would be banned. Why ban something that helps other colors than green get their ramp going?
I was really looking forward to this video. I've been thinking a lot about the CMDR ban list recently and I appreciate hearing your guys opinions on it. However, I don't think command tower or arcane signet deserve a ban.
@@NitpickingNerds I believe they're really helpful for players who want to play multiple colors and can't get a hold of more expensive untapped lands to get good color fixing, they also don't break the game from a power level perspective like sol ring and mana crypt. So I see them as a positive in the format even if they do homogenize it.
The ban list altogether is fairly problematic, as LITERALLY anything one (or two, three, four...) card(s) can do, there is a bunch of other cards that do the same (or worse). Its hard to justify anything being banned with all the cards that aren't, and we certainly can't go back through and ban every card that can win games. Lots of slippery slope argument space here. I mean, I think a shit load of cards should be banned, but its hard to justify them in comparison to other cards sometimes.
a lot of card are banned as a representative for certain strategies the RC thinks are unfun. and they arent banning for powerlevel-reasons. thats not my opinion btw, just the reasoning behind the bans (or cards not being banned while others are)
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 I mean, yes, that's correct; but frankly, it is the power level of those strategies that is the core of the issue 9 times out of 10. Too OP = less fun ≤ ban hammer(?) (And if your/their statement was 100% true, land destruction would be banned outright, in all forms j/k lol)
@@workyoutube7798 yeah, the list is pretty arbitrary. thats the cost of banning on subjective feelings than objective powerlevel. but its a cost im willing to pay, bcs it keeps the nature of EDH casual at heart. i still disagree with a bunch of their choices though, but in the end im fine with it
Joe is 100% correct about Erayo, Beezy is 100% correct in pronouncing Protean Hulk (not Protein). You are both 100% correct about Sol Ring and Mana Crypt!
I play coalition victory in my sisay weatherlight deck. If I ever win with this card I'm gonna freak out, since it is a full flavour deck with each card referencing the weatherlight story. So no dual lands, no feches, not much ramp outside of the pieces of ramos, so I have to have one of each basic land and at least 3 creatures out to win with it. I just love it.
I loved your take on Hulk and it’s great that both of you have very differing opinions. Great video as always. Few channels I will sit down and watch an hour long video. Keep up the good work and stay safe.
Commander should be open to all cards except those that absolutely break it. That is one of the main reasons commander is fun, its not bogged down by restrictions except for those that are self/group imposed.
Heh, hate Protean Hulk. It was the obvious ban when the Thassa's Oracle/Flash debacle was a thing. The card has always been a problem, and we could've been done with it for good. I agree with the banning of the top tier tutors for sure. If I remember correctly the reason Gifts Ungiven was banned is that it became an unwinnable situation every time it was cast. The player would search for their four win conditions, at instant speed, and it was game over. No matter how the piles were separated they were probably going to win. And as we know even if two cards get dumped into the graveyard that doesn't mean a whole lot these days. XD great video guys, and it was some nice insight (:
I have a love/hate relationship for the bankist. I get why it exists. But stuff like flash and paradox engine I personally wish weren't banned because I didn’t play them in the ways they got banned for. But if I’m playing with a new group (or even an established group) they would most likely not let a house rule pass to play either of these.
strong budget cards like sol ring, that feel realy good wehn you get it in your opening hand may be problematic but in a 4player game this is less of an issue since it encourages teamwork to catch up and politics are some of the most fun things about this game. mana crypt is worse since its less accessible. arcane signet and command tower on the other hand should definately stay. the most restricting thing about building decks on a budget is the manabase and those two cards help fix that a little. its two cards in 100 everyone runs but i dont think this is a problem when it comes to lands and mana rocks. those things mostely do the same thing and having those vs. a new cycle of duals or rocks doenst make much of a difference imo.
For what it's worth, you only need one turn with panoptic mirror, you don't need to sorcery speed it and wait a turn. You can respond to the trigger on your upkeep by activating in response and putting the card under.
Banlist is such a hard topic. It's so hard to please everyone and keep it consistent with philosophy. I think Banlist should not be like a hard ban, but being a suggestion. If player have a cEDH deck he wouldn't play it against some budget player. Most of players sits down with friends, so rule 0 solves that part. If he(or she) is an asshole, you either don't play with him or play archenemy, whatever you're prefer.
@@NitpickingNerds yeah, I assume that probably won't work with cEDH, but there's always will be a top teir deck(s), so make different banlist is not an option, then there will be cEDH, some semi-competitive EDH and casual commander. So again, this is hard as hell to please everyone
Having played casual EDH games with competitive people, I 100% agree on the Tier 1 tutor bans. Every game they don't win right away feels like they're just letting it drag on out of pity because everyone else at the table spent less money on cards than they have. It's also the reason I built and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled deck. I am a horrible person in the name of fun.
I really think the commander community can be reasonably separated into two groups. People who want to play good magic cards, and people who want to play mediocre magic cards. The problem being that the people who like playing good cards tend not to care what everyone else plays, and the people who want to play mediocre cards want everyone else to do so.
Wheel is more easily replaced though. Red has at least two other wheel effects which are arguably better and far less expensive. Magus is fired at instant speed, allowing you to mess with decks that try to set up their hands and Wheel of Fate gives you a couple turns to drop your hand and does it on your upkeep, giving you a hand of eight cards that turn. Even Memory Jar is less destructive on your wallet, and that is almost a strict upgrade. Blue's wheels, on the other hand, tend to be more expense or not actually draw seven cards and Twister resets graveyards. This makes Twister more difficult to replace (and it's replacements have a habit of getting banned).
Idea The primary reason Tutors are so strong is because the ones that were listed were essentially the cheapest CMC ones. In some cases, you can literally tutor up for a particular card and play it in the same turn. Black actually has a BUTT TON of tutors, just not 'efficient' tutors. There's Diabolic Tutor, Increasing Ambition, Wishclaw Talisman, Scheming Symmetry, Beseech the Queen, Everything and EVERYTHING with a TRANSMUTE COST. I mention black mana tutors first because they are the most efficient, allowing you to just grab a card and add it without showing what it is, putting it on top of library, or any of the other silly things some other tutors do. There's too many tutors to even mention honestly. The only thing that would actively stop the mass tutoring would be to simply cull the most efficient ones, and even then if you're doing that all you're doing is manually taking one step back from being "super strong" to just "versatile strong". If you ask me, the biggest thing is that I do not believe tutors should be able to be *Instant speed* while remaining anything less than 3 or 4 mana in CMC. Even then that's a huge benefit because you're just going to have someone use that instant-speed tutor to find a counterspell, or grab something from their deck at the end of someone else's turn. Maybe any instant-speed tutor should just be axed. Also, every card with an alt casting cost that essentially makes it "free" should be _banned._ Fite me 1v1 RL over this, that stuff is absolutely toxic for games and I do not carry them in decks outside of 9's and 10's.
Banning cards in this CASUAL format simply because of the price is a TERRIBLE idea for the health of the game. I see so many people screaming to ban all high roller cards simply for the price, for example, OG Duals. In my opinion, a healthy alternative to these cards would be proxies. Proxies 100 percent should be written into the rules of EDH as a whole. You are supposed to be playing against the player, not their wallet. As for the argument for banning top played mana rocks and all the best tutors, that is also a bit insane. Just because most people run those cards and view them as auto includes, does not make them ban worthy. I feel like if commander had the ban list that is discussed here. It would be the most drawn out and boring format ever.
Coming from a more casual background: I think Arcane Signet is fine, I pretty much have my land slots locked around 35, 10 cards for permanent ramp (including mana rocks). If Arcane Signet is banned, I'll just stick another 2 mana mana rock - it helps decks with more colours, especially if the land base isn't the greatest. If you're in green, you're playing obligatory ramp cards anyway so nothing really changes here I'd probably say most of those 0 mana mana rocks would probably be considered for bans - other highroll related early game stuff being banned should slow the game down significantly Anyway, rant over - I agree with everything but the Arcane Signet, the high roll aspect isn't really too fun in general. Perhaps the "0 mana" counterspells are a place to visit too, then you spend less time looking at the blue player to see if you can play cards
I just think at some point the Arcane Signet / Command Tower cards hit a critical mass where in five years commander decks could have 5-7 auto-includes when I'd rather have the deck slots opened up since like you said every color has fairer replacements for them, but you'd have to choose what fits your deck best
@@NitpickingNerds id rather have the auto includes over more random cards that are strictly worse people can choose not to run the best cards. Forcing it on others just because you don't like best of cards is one of the worst ban reasons.
@@NitpickingNerds I agree on most of what you guys are banning. But I think Sol Ring, tutors, fetchlands are a bit too far. People are welcome to introduce more variance in their playgroup should they choose to by excluding them. I enjoy having decks that have tutors as well as ones that don’t.
Top is fine, the issue is unexpected players using it. In my group the rule is know you’re next turn before your turn comes, unless something game changing happened right before you. Know your deck know your turns.
@@TheGoodchildOne No one expects a Force of will in a 5 color Sliver deck getting rid of Sliver Queen to pay for the cost as Overlord is the commander. Feeling anxious yet? ignore the fact that i can turn it into a Sliver with giving them a Hivestone and steal it with Overlord and from then on unless they blow up Hivestone any creature they have is mine note i would not have done that if i did not already have Bazaar trader and a Hivestone with fervor in my hand otherwise i can't give them the Hivestone to take their Blightsteel i mean my Blightsteel. Complicated combo i know but usually i steal their commanders with Hivestone find a way to get Hivestone back then go around the board taking the commanders, but who can resist a Blightsteel? or even putting a arrest on a Blightsteel till you can get the combo to add it to the Hive? I shall also turn their Mana crypt into a creature and take control of it also ignore that i am using a Sliver deck as a control deck. By the way if you don't know wat Hivestone does it turns all of the creatures you control into Slivers which used to be used as a counter for Sliver decks unless someone decides to use Overlord and take your newly created Slivers so you get the benefits but actually no its a trap as Overlord's control does not last till end of turn it last till the creature is dead. And one thing i would like to add both of Overlord's abilities are instant speed so say they try to supreme verdict us on their turn i could just take their Blightsteel in response even if they attack me or try to destroy the stone in response my Blightsteel, you stifle my ability? how cute in response i pay 3 my Blightsteel
I would say that Chaos Orb, in my playgroup, is used as a colorless Vindicate. We just reworded it as "1, tap, Sacrifice Chaos Orb : Destroy target permanent." Has worked in our EDH and in my old Cube. Everyone's been fine with it so far.
Honestly I feel like there should be two different banned lists, one for Cedh and the other for more casual play. Some of the cards on the banned list arent banned due to power level, but being a feels bad. Having 2 different lists could let deck diversity increase since you can ban a card in one list without touching it in the other. But of course, that would take a lot of testing and trial and error.
Sheldon won't do it, it's on someone else to create/maintain a competitive multi player format. One possible remedy is to create a suggested casual ban list then minimize the actual ban list. This will lead to too much confusion however.
What is your guys opinion on carpet of flowers? I feel like the card is insanely strong and at least in the conversation for ban-able cards. You are almost never at a table where no one is playing blue, especially as you go up in power. And once someone even has three islands its already insane for a 1 mana investment. And it never feels good to destroy since it was only a one mana play and can be recurred pretty easy by any regrowth like effect or even cards like sun titan if you ever get rid of it. I think the dumbest part is that you can play it in first main and get the mana in second main in the same turn. I've seen people cast it late game and just net 7+ mana from it. It just almost never feels dead, early or late. Unless of course you are at a table with no blue players.
I think what really helps the format most is a healthy discussion about power level. I understand the format feeling static, but my play group has gotten around that with deck building challenges like removing thassas Oricle or infinite combos from our decks for a few weeks. After that our deck building improved, and the decks are much more diverse. I've also had many times when a cyclonic rift results in the table cheating, because it kept the game going.
As always when watching your videos I disagree with many of your points :-D Banning sol ring and command tower? Those are the poster boys of the whole format. When I started playing edh (theros), the main appeal to playing it was that you could do fun stuff that wasnt legal anywhere else - like playing necropotence eg. Banning coffers would really damage the power level of mono black decks, same with banning cyclonic rift for mono blue. They can compete now, but without them mono green with its access to every relevant effect in the game would be king by far. Tutors also find answers to some difficult situations in multiplayer games, which makes the dynamics more interesting imo. I really think that this whole ban stuff with some exceptions should be left to playgroups. Especially now as more people streamline their decks and they become closer to cedh.
I couldn't disagree more! Your telling me that if by banning one card, it "makes a color not compete now". If anything that tells you how powerful that card truly is. If you remove it from the format and now the color is done... You must be the player that plays sol ring/mana crypt in every deck. Be on the opposite side once and see how much fun you're having when a game immediately turns into a 1 v 3. When coffers comes down on the board and creates 10 mana and allows them to play their entire hand and more??? how is that fair magic? there is no down side to it. it's an auto include. and tutors make the format stale. Who wants to play the exact same game of magic every time? like they said in the video, you do the same thing every game. play the same cards every game. if i wanted to do that, I'd play standard. they also make games take longer because, like you stated, you can find answers to any threat.
@@JosephZiereis I was only talking about the mono colored decks in comparison to each other. I play sol ring in every deck, as every player that I know. Mana crypt in just some. Also I have been plenty of times in a 1v3 situation and vice versa, that's the beauty of edh, if you get too far ahead early, you take a risk like this. Tutors are ok if you don't overdo it. Answers are now more needed because some permanents/commanders are so powerful (chulane, k'rrik, korvold eg) that you have to deal with them immediately lest you die.
I tend to consider any creature with defense 3 or less hard to argue a ban for. As if there aren't enough counter spells floating around, 3 or less D stat is open to any bolt, shock + a ping. Wipes that hit every creature for 2 to 3+. Or etb effects like mh2 Fury doing 4 dmg to anything.
Yeah it’s a little confusing, those don’t promote playing magic either. It’s tough because there’s so many cards like that. We definitely aren’t saying the RC is stupid or anything; they have a tough job
@@uphillwalrus5164 I can see what you mean, but have to disagree. With all the brought back/sevines rec. shenegians, mana crypts and vaults and moxen and 2 mana rocks... It is possible to consistently power her out T4/5..
Chaos Orb reminds me of winning Nationals at Redemption, a bible-based CCG almost as old as Magic...They had a card called Haman's Plot that had to be ripped up when used, so I brought a couple dozen to States and Nationals that year.
@@NitpickingNerds yeah but he was in my grimgrin deck til they banned him it was a horde of zombies with a handful of vampires commanding them, all working for grisslebrand
back when I built my first commander deck (Trostani, Selesnya's Voice), I put in panoptic mirror because I didn't know it was banned. I didn't even think of the implications of putting an extra turn spell on it, I just liked it because it let me get a free copy of Second Harvest or Rootborn Defenses each turn. Time Walks and boardwipes aside, this card is perfectly fine, even very cool for timmy decks or decks that want to abuse a few big spells in their deck.
One issue with Erayo that might influence its banning is that it forms a 2 card combo with Arcane Laboratory that essentially reads "opponents can't cast spells" Arcane Laboratory 2(U) Enchantment Each player can't cast more than one spell per turn. I'm not entirely sure how easy it would be to pull off but it's essentially a 2 card combo that shuts down the entire table with one in the command zone.
The way I heard the explanation for flash being banned over protean hulk was that protean hulk was a card that had fun applications for casual decks that were not trying to win the game with it. The decision between flash and hulk was how to fix the cedh meta without messing with anyone's casual deck and very few people were playing flash outside of that one purpose.
Panoptic Mirror, you don't need to wait until your next turn. During your upkeep you can imprint the card to get the effect right away. That's because it triggers weather it imprinter or not.
We mean that you have to untap with it after playing it, I see your point though. It just feels similar to so many of the 2 card infinite combos we have already
Aside from the deck diversity issue where it gets played 24/7 in anything… Main gripe I have with cyclonic rift is the design, specifically I hate the overload cost. Imo, It would have been a more reasonable design if it was UUU4 or something along those lines. It’s just kinda dumb how it can just be jammed in any deck that runs the slightest sliver of blue. An effect like that should at the least require a solid commitment to blue mana.
On the case of Biorhythm and Coalition Victory, the rules committee's stance on why they are banned is because they are very swingy cards that can win the game with, in biorhythm's case little setup, and, in Coalition Victory's case immediately with the right setup. Even if they are not broken, they lead to swingy and generally unfun games. I experimented with a no banlist/light banlist commander format with my friend, and when we played games where the unbanned cards are ones like Coalition Victory and Biorhythm, the games were very swingy and generally unfun.
The Flash combo only saw play in cEDH, the ban was for cEDH. Hulk sees more play in normal EDH and can still be used casually. Also without Flash there wasn’t a consistent instant speed way of sac the Hulk. Also Recurring Nightmare and Kokusho was the the reason. You could hold priority as well with the interaction.
6:01 I think this is the real concern: When you get to 8 mana, you probably have all the basic land types out (assuming you play with duals). Since your commander is 5 colors (by definition), all you need is for your commander to stick for one go-around, then cast and resolve this. That seems like an unfun way to win.
Firstly, not all 5 color commanders are 5 colors by definition. Codie, Vociferous Codex is colorless, Morophon the Boundless is colorless, Jodah Archmage is only 3 colors, Kenrith the Returned King is only white, Sisay Weatherlight Captain is only white, and Najeela the Blade Blossom is only red. Secondly, there's way easier combos that win the game and just require your commander to stick around one turn. Ever hear of Niv-Mizzet Parun and Curiosity? Cast your uncounterable commander, and if he sticks around for one turn and doesn't get killed when you cast your next spell, you win.
Magic is so interesting in so many levels: I'm (usually) a Modern player, and I'm trying to learn and play commander for the past 2 months. To do so, I'm consuming a lot of content - gameplay, reviews, tier lists - and I can definitely say that the layers in EDH (and magic in general) are so deep. So many cards you've mentioned here I'd think are just "meh" with a "modern player mentality", but after playing for a little bit or watching some gameplay videos, I believe those cards to be very strong and such a potential for great powers to be unleashed. However, you guys have something I'm yet to achieve in EDH: experience. The point of view on each card that you've mentioned, to preserve the fun in the meta is such an important reason to consider (un)banning cards, and that can only be achieved with such experience. Great Job!
@@NitpickingNerds it was deeply sincere. I learn a lot from your tier list (probably my favorite content of yours). It is so much fun and elucidating, because there are so many cards with consistent comments from you guys per video that the knowledge just grows exponential. Thanks again ♡ PS: I'd Love to see you talk more about deck techs and combos in EDH. My deck nowadays is Zur, but not Stax (Solemnity+9Lives & Necropotence+SolitaryConfinement, etc.). PS2: I'm building a K'rrik deck (because of Post Malone's Secret Lair). I know you guys did a video about K'rrik, but any chance you guys talk about it again?^^
In addition to this topic: What do you think of a ban on certain legendary creatures in the form of "banned as commander"? I'm talking specificly about those, of whom you know that this game is no fun for a casual round in about 95% of times. Of cause this mostlikely will never happen because cEDH exists and playgroups can just "ban" the commanders they don't like. But man there are some commanders I wouldn't be sad, if I don't have to see them ever again ^^.. As always, great video!
We don't vibe with the banned as commander list, it was confusing and rule 0 helps sort out between the ones that should just be banned and the ones that aren't very fun. I think Iona is a card that rule 0 helps remove from games she would potentially ruin
I have emrakul in my animar deck and it just sits in my hand most of the time. When I do cast it I have yet to lose but is not the combo peice I'm looking for. Its a card to finish off your opponent and it does it super well. Its also 15 mana. You would have to ramp out 4 turns in a row to get to it. I think its fine solely on its mana cost.
Accesibility isnt a ban factor, the rl cards like mox that have been banned have been banned due to the rc wanting to distinguish the format from the view that it is a alt vintage
For panoptic mirror, if you imprint an extra turn spell onto it….. you get unlimited turns. That combo would be easy enough to do and seems very unfun to play against.
On Emrakul, "Protection from colored spells". Protection is active when on the battlefield. Which is why you can use 'castigate' to exile Emrakul from the hand. But such spells can not hit Emrakul when in the command zone, which means what is basically the only method of interacting with her pre-resolution is taken away. And since once she's resolved, Emrakul is basically one step short of unkillable . . . There is nothing 'fun' about her. And I play Stax, making people not have fun while playing Magic is my thing! Also permanents aren't spells once they're on the battlefield, so Emrakul isn't protected from say Banishing Light's ETB (this also means creatures can be put in front of her to block). But you're just gonna put her right back in the command zone, where she can't be interacted with with spells like the aforementioned castigate, and 17 colorless isn't that hard to pay in commander, so even then . . . like, I don't typically like ban lists, but Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is an absolute game warping card in all formats, and nigh impossible to interact with in Commander, she's 100% a reasonable ban.
I strongly disagree with gifts ungive being unbanned as well as Iona. Gifts allows you to grab any two combos, and Iona is a permanent that just shuts down one colour which can cripple a game
Banning command tower may seem controversial but its also kind of controversial that cards literally everyone who wants to build 2 - 5 color decks need are some of the most expensive. WeLl ItS ExPeNsIvE bEcAusE EveRyoNe NEedS iT dUh NO. Why are we scaring away new players who are possible interested in mardu but then disheartened that their deck is going to suffer if they dont drop hundreds on cards that literally do nothing cool what so ever. Duel lands shouldn't even be rare imo its a fucking land.
Biorhythm is because of the prevalence of board wipes. After a wipe, if a player has a creature (indestructible, flashes in, death trigger, or just cheap) then they auto win with Biorhythm
The real issue with gifts is you essentially get to at instant speed ask your opponent to choose how they lose by tutoring for redundant versions of the same effect were their choice doesn’t actually matter. Intuition is only legal because of sorcery speed.
I agree about the tier 1 tutors and I personally think they break the spirit of the format. When you have a crucial card that can also be represented by potentially 3-4 other cards in your deck depending on your colors you really break the singleton aspect of the game and no longer need to think about diversifying your strategy. The hard part, though, is then drawing the line for which tutors are acceptable and which aren’t.
I don't agree with the current banlist as it stands. A card should only be banned if it's format breaking (being powerful is not format breaking) and accessibility is already an issue anyway so I don't see the reason the moxen and lotus are banned.
4:30 Tergrid would love this card being unbanned. No don't unban emmy. There are plenty of ways to bounce it in colorless. The difference between intuition and gifts is that with gifts the opponents puts 2 directly into the grave and you put the rest in hand (so it can act as a double entomb) while intuition forces the opponent to choose one of the cards. That means for intuition you might need to grab a recovery card while gifts you don't.
I want Braids unbanned as a non-commander option. I think having fairly reliable turn 1 or 2 access to it might be unfun, but it being part of the 99 shouldn't be a problem. Similar effects exist and its a once per turn effect where you can chose what to sac. There are now so many cards that easily create multiple creatures or treasures per turn and it dies to removal.
Command Tower, Sol Ring, Jeweled Lotus, Arcane Signet. I don't think these cards need to be banned because they aren't problematic for games, especially since accessibility isn't really an issue for them (arguably excluding Lotus). However, I do agree that their status as "auto-includes" and their universal applicability to every deck in the format means that they erode diversity and were mistakes to create. I used to run Sol Ring, Command Tower, and Signet in every deck, but lately I've been taking them out of a lot of decks, and only including them when they feel like correct inclusions based on what the deck is doing or what the deck needs to succeed. I went from one of each in every deck to maybe one or two of each between all of my decks.
I like the idea I heard here when you said you don't care what deck your friends play. And that most groups of friends, If people self regulate themselves the game plays out fine. Me and my few friends just play by...you make a deck with the cards you have...period. we play 60+ card formats. If something stands out and is just sucking nearly the whole life out of the game, we will back down from it some. It's not like any of us are going to show up anytime soon with a playset of timewalks. But I would give a go against a deck a couple times before judging it by its cover and saying nah I don't want anything to do with it. I make house rules to try to promote fun but not take away thrilling competition. My personal fav one is you can redeal your hand as many times as you want without taking a mulligan if you draw 1 or less, or 6 or more lands on open hand. If you get 3 to 4 lands and want a new hand, thats on you and takes a mulligan - you had a good enough hand anyone could ask for. We also experiment with 25 and 30 starting life totals to, at times, balanxe our the radical shift of damage pelting the same 20hp lifebar from 1993 when a 4/4 was something to respect and acknowledge on the battlefield. Now an angel can fart and it generates a 3/3 flyer. One thing me and friends kind of veer away from is all out land destruction. It's not unbeatable but it calls for specific counters. We try not to get into a situation of "Well if you play that deck it doesn't make any sense for me to play anything but this deck" wars. But we do try to have lots of various styles of decks because we all encourage each other to never shy away from something just because it seems unforgiving. We don't want to stifle each other's creativity either.
I have never been in a Commander game where Gaia’s cradle or cabal coffers was played and not met with groans from the rest of the table. It’s just free mana ramp.
They should BOTH be banned but if I had to choose only one to ban it hold be Cradle. Green has more than enough ramp without having this card. Also, how do they justify banning Rofellos but not the Cradle? It makes no sense at all.
The problem with flash hulk as a cedh player was the combo was basically impossible to interact with because decks were constructed with the specific goal of the combo and protecting it so the problem comes with anytime an opponent has the mana to cast flash you can't play the game you have to hold up interaction and not develop your own game plan it also created a lot of standoffs the reason the community wanted flash gone instead of hulk is because hulk does nothing in a cedh game by itself
The biggest problem with Emrakul back then (And now would probably still be) would be because of Jhoira of the Ghitu players, and the fact one attack wrecks specifically one player who will more than probably not come back from it no matter how hard he tried.
Decks that put in emrakul with a realistic shot at casting it earlier are going to try to ramp mana very fast. I ironically put 1 emrakul in my mono green elf deck. I kept having games with just astronomical mana potential and all these elves. I've now had a game as good as getting emrakul out on turn 4 by an honest cast, just genuine ramp.
Serra Ascendant looks silly, but is actually the combat equivalent to a 1/1 flying lifelink in a 1v1 format, because you have 6 times (120 / 20) the life to get through. So yes it's way above rate compared to other creatures, but that's the kind of damage a creature needs to do to be playable as a french vanilla. And when you draw it mid/late it's often the worst card in your deck. Do people actually include it in decklists anymore?
I can see sol ring and Mana Crypt being banned because of Auto include status - although I think it will hurt non-green decks in the process. However I don't think Jeweled Lotus is in the same category because of the restrictions of only making one color of Mana. 3, 4 or 5 color commanders can't easily and reliably do busted starts with jeweled Lotus. I actually like the fact that monocolored Commanders get a reward for limiting the type of cards they have access to by staying in only one color. Things like cabal coffers and jeweled Lotus gives an incentive that was not previously there. I love building multicolored decks but have a few monocolored decks for this very reason.
I think the main reason flash was banned instead of protean hulk was because hulk sees a lot more casual “fun” play in that there are tons of casual decks that just run it as an incredibly powerful card that gets you tons of value, but doesn’t win you the game on the spot, where flash is literally only used to break other cards. Considering the cEDH community was the one that begged for the combo to be broken up, it seems reasonable to ban the card that affects the casual side of EDH the least
Lirary of alexandria is busted, too often it just draws one extra card per turn for free. Its dead if your hand size is too small as you get it, but if you get it in your starting hand or when near full hand size, the requirement is too easy to fulfill and you draw an extra card each turn. Also its an awesome toolbox tutor target.
I do agree on many of the bans, the tutors, cradle, coffers, expropriate and especially rift. Just makes for unfun games. The only decks I play busted cards like top and mana crypt in are monoR or similar decks that are already so incredibly powered down due to the lack or late game advantage and ramp options. It gives those decks a fighting chance but I wouldn't really be sad to see them go. My Subira deck would go from decent to terrible (without solring, crypt and top) though =)
