Commander Deckbuilding Principles | EDHRECast 227 

I think what’s equally important is to know when you’ve gone outside of a principle and accepting it. I built Edgar Markov with one board wipe because I shouldn’t need wipes. I want to be the reason for the wipe. If you out creature me, then I tip my cap to you and accept what comes with it.

Dana: Echoing Truth Matt: I'ma ruin this man's entire day

I really like the idea of building/brewing a very strong version of a deck, then de-powering it from there. otherwise, the trajectory of most decks is to slowly grow stronger over time as new synergistic cards are printed and slowly swapped in. maybe that doesn't keep up with power creep/inflation of entirely new decks so it's fine, but intentionally tuning a deck down is not a bad thing

My First game with Blanka, I casted Return of the Wildspeaker, expecting to draw 11 and someone instantly countered it,, then I was reading it my graveyard and started cracking up laughing. Plugged it for Soul’s Majesty. Great challenge!!

If I remember correctly Dana mentioned this many moons ago and I finally found someone who thinks the way I do: If you run tons of Cantrips/small card draw effects it's totally reasonable to cut some lands.since you dig deeper and faster through your deck you are likely to find more lands reliably.

I love the advice in this video. I don't agree with 100% of everything, but thinking about the topics, and some of the points you make are totally valid. Great job, guys. Love it.

I've recently fallen in love with the enchantment Greater Good. Its a 4 mana green card that allows you to freely sacrifice creatures for card draw equal to the creature's power. A free sac outlet is great in decks like Meren but , I especially love this effect when facing a boardwipe. My creatures are still going to the yard, but I get to grow my hand and potentially recover much faster than my opponents were expecting me to.

I love the point about advancing the board state instead o f stopping things. Shout out to Spelljack for a counterspell that loves to create memorable moments.

I think the most valuable deckbuilding principle is simply managing to set a clear line as to where this given deck is going to start and end; whether it's a theme, a character, or just raw power. The roof for upgrading and tuning EDH decks is extremely high, and if you have a large library of cards (or lots of disposable income) before you know it you might have optimised away the entire point of a deck and taken the fun out with it. Your Assassin deck with Ramses can run hugely powerful combos with with the UB colours, but after a while you're winning off combo so often you might as well cut the commander, and whoops you have another Thoracle. Every Grandeur deck I've ever made gets further and further from the Grandeur pop and eventually would be much stronger if I cut the enabler cards and swapped one of the 99 for the commander, but then the fun of making Grandeur work in a singleton format was the entire point. There's Sandwurm cards in the Hazezon deck even though one is weak and the other is terrible, because it was a Dune deck and when they go the theme goes and the fun follows.

For brand new players I think templates are great because card selection can be overwhelming (unless you start with a pre-con and upgrade from there every time). But i also think if you start building a deck around a type that you're not used to playing, using a template can be helpful until you get used to the mechanics of your deck and how it works. My first deck was an enchantress deck, and I played it a hundred times before i started building my second deck, which revolved around graveyard recursion. I had no experience with it, so I put a lot of single-target removal and board wipes just so I can try to stay in the game. Once I was comfortable i took out a lot of those and added more potent cards that clicked with my commander.

At about 24:30 ish what Joey is saying really resonated with me. I built an Instant & Sorcery spell tribal Jeleva deck with only 2 creatures- I tuned the deck up and had just about every single extra turn spell in the deck. After grinding out about 15-20 games- I realized the play pattern of chaining extra turns together with Jeleva turn after turn got incredibly stale for me, and especially for my playgroup. I since detuned the deck, removing like 8 extra turn spells for more fun, splashy big effect spells- and the deck has become my pride & joy and has become my favorite deck of all time. Very well put Joey!

More on challenge the stats backdraft hellkite. Only in 47 Feather decks even though Feather will overwrite flahback exile effect so instant ends up in your hand.

Im just getting into EDH. The timing of this is perfect for me, thanks!

To Matt's point about moving the game forward, a huge rule I try to stuck by is making sure my board wipes are one sided. So often I see board wipes used in a way that drags the game out, and I don't like that. Like you guys say, you can pay extra mana to get extra effect. Fumigate's life gain is often worth 1 extra mana. But what if you could WIN for 5 extra mana? That's what In Garruk's Wake does when you have a full board.

Echoing Truth has been stellar every time I have used it!

I have a single rule where i can not use the same card if its already being played from previous deck. The only exception are lands and mana rocks. This forces me to not look at the "staples" for a certain color and make my decks be different from one another because none of them contains the same cards.

Regarding templates, what I've found most helpful are mutable templates. It is absolutely true that ideas like "always play ten ramp and ten draw spells" fall apart because different commanders have different needs, but the idea that your deck wants *some* amount of ramp and draw is definitely true. So I'll start with a broad template - 12 ramp 12 draw 12 interaction 24 engine or core cards 3 tutors or win cons. But before I add a single card beyond my commander, I sit down and adjust that template. Aesi? I'm going to trim draw effects down and add a lot more ramp. Animar? I'm going to do the opposite. That way I still get the upside of the template, a useful set of boxes to check to make sure the deck does all the things it needs to do, but without being rigidly tied to numbers that don't necessarily work for that deck. Sometimes that even means changing a category outright- usually those 'engine' slots morph into a couple of more specific categories. And when a card can consistently fit multiple categories I'll count it in both and then open up flex slots accordingly, slots where I can play cards that don't fit anywhere else or just cards that are dumb and fun. For a while I had moved away from templates but the structure was very helpful for not just initial building but upgrading over time, because I can make sure my adds and cuts fit into the same categories, or if they are deviating that it was an intentional choice of mine - that I'm making the adjustment because I decided the deck needed more draw and was okay to trim on interaction, not just that I wanted to put Tireless Tracker into my deck and was okay cutting a Reclamation Sage.

Whelming wave in changlings is a beautiful surprise.

I love the brut force Segway to challenge the stats.

I love Backdraft Hellkite in my Zada deck. Being able to flashback the combat tricks and token makers is such a great value add to that deck.

Havok Festival is one of my favorite cards to play, do I lose because of it most of the time? Yes, but people's reaction to it are always fun. They don't hate it rather they say "oh OH, So it's GO TIME!" It turns a game that may have stagnated into something lots more fun for everyone.

I looove Dana’s challenge of Echoing Truth, I’ve bounced something like 1,400 elf tokens with that before, it’s a game changer and often a life saver

More and more, I'm starting with my draw package. I want draw spells at both ends of the curve - small draw spells really help with hitting land drops, while big draw spells are basically finishers in their own right. Templates are great for a starting point, you just have to remember they aren't hard and fast. What they *are* good for is keeping you honest - is that new card *actually* good for a deck, or are you just jumping on a hype train?

Fully agree with Matt's point on Flood vs. Screw.

great show :) keep up great work

Oo^^ Astarion's Thirst is so going in Felisa.^^

playing whelming wave in a serpent tribal is actually the optimal play over cyclonic though? considering its 2 less mana to push your opponents back

That joke at the start is enough for a like😂

My Grenzo, Havoc Raiser deck have 29 creatures with mana value equals to 1, most of them are obscure creatures and my opponents say "what this card does?" or "why do you use this?". It's hilarious to me their reactions.

I used to run on a "formula" for deckbuilding. It wasn't always exact but it was close. I have more recently started playing with more "good stuff" and less utility and modifying over time until things like draw, removal, and ramp feel like the deck functions right. I find I have an easier time finding the heart of the deck with more options to test. Draw, Removal, and Ramp a typically the same cards with variation based on theme. It does take a lot longer for a deck to be fully functional but the benefit makes it feel more like my own deck.

Where do we submit challenge the stats? Also that transition was amazing Dana

My goal on deck building is build fringe decks that are as powerful as meta decks but fly under the radar and work in unique ways. They almost always have multiple win cons. I also like taking portions of decks and building other decks around those sections. 2 recent examples. Jodah the unifier deck. And a marchesa rhe black rose deck thats using alot of the research for my 5 color deck but also built for a friend and using a bunch of stuff she wanted. Marchesa. Functions like some marchesa decks using 1 1 counters. But also functions in a bit of a unique way. Enter the bsttlefield effects but with some minor flicker combos built in and the ability to go infinite at times but more so heavy ramp. Mill and marchesa make it have some zombie feel. However its more a control deck but in a unique way. Stealing crestures and sacing them to keep them. But also token swarm and sac for mana and draw ramp combos and being able to self thin out your deck with investigate. Multiple tutors but also used for some specific combos but also the versatility to get things back on track quickly or at least provide minor portions of combos to allow ramp and develop board state. Recycling nature in the deck. Gonna use some staples but not in the typical manners and sometimes just to make the different sides function properly. But idea is like the one dude targeted versatility and having counters for various things. Heavy resource denial style control moxed with more typical boue control and sections of a red aggro board state control. Swarm tactics. But rogues fae and goblins as the core and using versatile buffers for the deck and some more targeted stuff. Portions of exile and steal decks portions if mill decks portions of other stuff blended to give a very very unique control deck. But nothing as a heavy haha you can't play. Very much of the punished for messing with that deck. And also flying under rhe radar till scary and tricks start going off. Has a unique concept. Think old fae and medieval fairy tales. Meets d&d fae. Meets a series of unfortunate events. Meets Lovecraft with a sacrifice addition and zombies. But seem cute and inconspicuous at first. And the real threats not being what you think. Hellboy toothfairy type swarms. Weak little things but annoying. Played nicely its powerful seems like a badguy deck and isnt horrible. But able to play powerful decks and stay ramped up. But with mill and exile and counterspells it can also work for leveling the playing field and forcing nicer games. And kinda becoming the nice big bad at the table against a bruiser player whos going a little ham on dome weaker players. Use certain combos to access a ridiculous level of ramoing counterspells that are endless wirh infinite mana. Force a mill situation across all opponents. Targeted attacks and removal and non combat damage. Then counterspell lock the strong deck into a position where its not just mollywopping the noobs. And forces the 3 against you as the competitive player is gonna want you and you can lkay targeted to keep it fair. But its a fae deck with like less than half the creatures as fae. And creatures that keep coming back. Lol. Skin Gundam piloted by fae working wirh a wizard and a band of rogues and other neer do wells. But youre supposed to look it off and rhen be like haha uh oh im in danger. But designed around a few commander potentials working together with one to keep the board state locked uo and steady build. But has some hard counters. The 5 color is supposed to be more op bur have harder mana fixing for the full deck. But also make use of alot of various win cons and hard counters and fun stalemate situations, and some shenanigans. Instant draw infinite combos so it can remain unbeaten but i give them the win. Just as a funny concede and scoop. Inside joke and for kinda being annoying to A hole players. But idea is different win con every time and also using some never played combos that work due to versatile card selection and some good cover staples for a 5 color deck.

When building a deck I start with the sol ring, arcane signet, and how many colors the deck is. My mono decks start at 30 lands, 2-4 color decks start with 33 lands, and 5 color decks get 36 lands. This is the start point. Those are the only benchmarks my decks get. Beyond that I throw in things I think might work maybe a few mama rocks, a little bit of draw. Then I play. From then I may add more draw if I see I’m running out of gas, or more rocks if I’m low on mana, or even quality control my cards that may not just be doing or preforming as the card may have seemed it should. Now of course I make small rules for some of my decks because I am a flavor kind of guy, but nothing is hard stuck. Although my land count tends to be a pretty good number throughout as I don’t think I’ve ever had issues getting lands when I need them with these numbers. As for the quality of my lands can be an issue but that’s for quality control more than adding lands.

22:11 Matt's lived that Grindr life... just made me LOL ^.^

Im definitely one of those people that likes to make unorthodox decks where most of the cards arent seen. A few staples that make people go "oooo, wow!" But the things that help them win are stuff where my friends say "whoa whats that!" Ive played so many games that the staples like cyclonic rift, toxic deluge, black sun's zenith, etc etc just kinda start to feel old because i know theyre in every deck. Wipe my board with something i dont recognize.

I have found that i don't neccessarily need card draw if i have resiliancy, so i tend to run cards thhat reward me when my opponents interact like lilianas standard bearer. I also value reccursion higher currently as i often want my spells back rather than wanting new spells.

Really agree with what joey said about building more optimized to start off. Especially for commanders where it's hard to gauge the power level. I still run vamp tutor in runo stormkirk just cause it's sort of hard to flip him, and the ceiling for the commander is still pretty battle cruiser level.

Love the sunny reference, Dana!

My hard and fast rule is I have to play some level of removal. It changes as I build the deck. I need to make sure I have removal for all card types.

Big Hellkite fan. I know it’s the not blah in your blah blah deck, but it’s killer in Blanca when I just want to make a beefy creature

I used to use Backdraft Hellkite in my Kykar Spellslinger, but I removed it just because it just wasn’t explosive in a deck that was all about exploding in a turn and I’d have to wait a turn cycle. In a lower powered version of the deck, it went in really well, but now that I’ve optimized it more, it just doesn’t make the cut.

As a new magic player wincons is still the most confusing part of building a deck

My big deck building principle is asking myself questions after I have a Commander, 99, and maybe board. Specifically if my ramp, card draw, and/or removal total ends less than 10, I begin to ask questions. Is this an adequate amount of Ramp for this deck? Are there more options for removal? So on and so forth.

Echoing Truth IS the truth

Matt I'm old enough that I've been to one of those drive-in theaters

i play the dragon flashback in my firesong and sunspeaker deck he's mvp

If I had 20 treasures, and someone hit one with an echoing truth... I'd just sac the one they're targeting. Now I only have 19 treasures. That's not quite the effect Dana was going for. 🤷‍♂ (edit) Oh, Joey caught that. Coolio. 👍

Dana really echoing truth the Echoing Truth

It's pretty amusing that a card like Echoing Truth would keep coming back. echo, echo, echo.

30:30 Problem with backdraft hellkite is that spellslinger decks tend to have access to blue mana, and if you have access to blue mana, you'd rather play lier than the hellkite, since lier doesn't require an attack trigger.

Things may start out like--- "Izzet and Simic are terribly boring, because none of their deck archetypes appeal to me." ---then, I eventually found and happily built Volo (Guide to Monsters) to replace Toothy//Pir, and I built Toggo//Glacian landfall artifacts with Jhoira, Brudiclad, Saheeli, Tawnos, and Dakalos in the 98, even though I generally lack interest in Izzet artifact brews. Then, the new Dominaria set spoils a new Simic faerie legend, and I very much recently brewed an Izzet background build with only 2 decks on EDHrec... Alora//Tavern Brawler. Tri-color decks are even worse, with Esper taking forever to get a commander worth my time, but then New Capenna gets some train conductor gal and now there's an inquisitor in oddly spoiled territory who is much more interesting, even though Esper typically does artifacts and clue tokens are definitely artifacts. Unfortunately, the same has yet to be said for any of the 4-color combos, and I absolutely lucked the heck out with Go-Shintai shrines with historic and other utility support. Sadly, Tetsuko (Fugitive) is still waiting for WotC to print more stuff which cares about switching power and toughness.

I actually run the Hellkite in Anje, as she's throwing a bunch of cards into the graveyard

Upping the average for marrow gnawer?? Just discovered the channel and I'm loving the content, would appreciate some rat tribal love

Dana (in regards to deckbuilding): UNIQUE! I’m too classy for this world.

As y'all reviewed the backdraft hellkite, I thought "if your deck would play Lier and red, you should play Hellkite, too".

31:28 - 31:53 lmao this is hilarious to me 🤣

I guess we have to wait for part two

Wait, this was released 6 hours ago? I'm finally on time

Land counts are so hilarious bc I’m here saying 35 is my go to, and I only add if it’s a landfall. Everyone has their own count and people will react equally shocked when someone else runs too many or not enough

This was very helpful 27:47 😅😅😅😅😅

This is a simple one, but my rule of thumb when building a deck is that I need to have at least 3 distinct ways a deck can win before I build it. They can all be the same, such as combat damage, but I need to be able to say to myself that at any given time I can win if I draw x, y, or z card(s)

Dana's card draw "principle" is so narrow it falls flat for half the colour wheel

I have to say that your matches are some of the coolest to watch if not even the coolest. Today a huge load of commander gameplays have so much tutors and staples, its booring to watch for me.

anything can be stopped or removed .. thats not a good enough reason to not count it as a draw source.

A 37 land deck is about equivalent to a 22 land deck in 60 card. I think 37 is even too low to start at

Try Hellfire in your Black decks. If everything in you deck is Black or B/X it's nearly a one sided board wipe. Assuming of course that you have enough life to live through it.^^

I eat stickers all the time too, Dana. Now Im in the hospital for PVC poisoning.

See I added stax cards to my deck, because of how expensive my creatures are. Since im the guy with no creatures for the first 4/6 turns im the only target to swing at.

When I decide to build a new commander deck, I find a commander that has an ability that sparks my interest. Edgar Markov was my first commander deck. I love vampires so it seems like a no brainer. As the variations of the deck have gone on, it’s been focusing more and more on the eminence ability and getting value off of it. Aside from ramp (I play primarily Mardu, so it’s somewhat limited), I try not to copy cards from one deck to the next. Dockside Extortionist is a great card, but it’s only in Kelsien, which has a blink strategy. The only cards that seems to cross over are Sol Ring and Emergence Zone (except for Kelsien strangely, he really is a unique build). Wincons need to fit into the overall strategy of the deck. My Licia deck is all about gaining and losing life, sometimes simultaneously. So while yes, Aetherflux Reservoir is a wincon, so is Greven, Praetor Captain and people do not see him coming. Removal depends on a lot of things, but I generally go for exile over destroy. When I want something gone, I want it gone for good. I also like to build outside of the box. Edgar Markov is vampires, but mine doesn’t look to aggro, it combos. Licia is often relegated to just a life gain deck, and while it is there, I take advantage of the cost reduction by sacrificing her for value. I’ve casted her 3 times in a single turn, never once paying for commander tax. Queen Marchesa is built to beat a Craterhoof Behemoth and other alpha strike and aggro decks. Kelsien is the Predator, untapping and activating multiple times and blinking when he’s finally targeted. It’s a very unique deck.

Was this the first steal the segue from Joey episode?

That is an echoing challenge. Will be adding it to bilbo ninjitsu

So the Echoing Truths card isn't played enough, is an Echoing truth, for this podcast? XD

I thought treasures can be sacrificed in response and Echoing Truths will no longer have a legal target?

Fav aspect of the edh rec guys is that they encourage unique builds/techs and stray away from edhrec copy pasta. Luv it haha

Is Utah like some kind of tcg hub?

Is there any way this could be a PowerPoint presentation. My brain needs notes

Just started and realized the guys are grixis colors this week

How have I not been subscribed already? Jeez. Sorry about that

That Truth is REALLY Echoing YO! Ep 85 Ep 112 Ep 227 - I'll Do it RIGHT AWAY!

Rhystic is card draw, not signing on for that one

If any card is apropos to appear on Challenge the Stats multiple times, it's Echoing Truths.

matts jokes are so funny lol

i d like to summit library of lang as a card for the commander kamiz obscura! challange the stats! only 22 decks play it.!

The fact that a card literally named Echoing Truth is constantly being rechallenged… Its actually truth being echoed.

Dana is just echoing his truth

Found a way to hit lands with Echoing Truth.^^ Liquimetal Coating > Born to Drive > Swift Reconfiguration The 'Land' is now a Vehicle Artifact with no other types but retaining the name. Target with Echoing Truth Laugh as the now technically-not-a-land and all the other still lands but share a name with it get bounced back to hand.^^ Run it in Shorikai for flavor win.^^

I sense strange vibes

backdraft hellkite is just a worst lier is it not ?

A lot of new treasures from New Capenna come in TAPPED which means their owner CAN'T sacrifice them in response 😏

Bad deck builders play stax, good deck builders don't play stax, great players are stax😇

For me when it comes to modal spells or spells that do multiple things whatever the first line of text is that's what it is for that category. So if a card can draw you a card or make mana. The first line is draw a card so it's a card draw spell.

"creature cant be blocked" or "player loses half their hp rounded up" is a good thing? That stuff is one tick below poison counters to me

I thought joey was the one who's lived the grinder life.

I think you cannot do math way of building deck - and asume that draw spells, are not draw spells if they dont draw 100%... Lets do simple math - and check how many times Ristic Study, or Spihnx draw you cards? I think in "mediana" both will draw like HARDCORE more then any of the "live draws"... It makes you to play weaker spells becose they are 100%, not 99%... thats a BIG mistake....

Honestly Echoing Truth always overperforms

my apologies, i was the 70th like

Guess so

Ugh those dad jokes were unbearable. I'd give the bear jokes a 2/2.

Wait, am I first? Weird

Playing non-optimal cards for fun? You guys live in the land of milk and honey-non-optimized decks lose on turn 5 in my meta. The “feel good” spirit of EDH is dead out in the real world.