I just find it hard to understand that our predecessors practiced things because they were societal norms when Islam was meant to change/fix or eliminate certain things even if they were the norms… when we question certain laws of Islam people argue Islam is for all times, but then defend things like having concubines as being a societal norm at the time. While I’ve no doubt about Islam I don’t like the double standards brought on by human beings…
@farzadYSFN Right, an almighty God, of all entities, had to "consider realities on the ground" of the 7th century to seemingly enshrine a code for eternity. The realities of the ground are very different today. Why can't God allow himself to send a new message that concubinage is forbidden, period? Like he did with alcohol in the 7th century? Wake up from the dogmatic trance.
@@farzadYSFN Bro, there is no slavery in the Qur'an, it's even an abomination to do it. The whole point about the Quranic doctrine is to set a high moral standard for the people. All verses related with slavery have not been properly worked we can see that problem scattered throughout. From the depth of your soul, you know slavery is wrong. Allah didnot allow it either, He didn't specifically state not to do it, but the Prophet and the followers knew the moment they embraced the faith and become enlightened that it was wrong, that why freeing a slave is one of the activities in the book. Please note that freeing a slave doesn't mean owning one then freeing them later, it rather means going to people who commit this abominable act and buying that slave(Which was very expensive) then freeing that slave, you can clearly see the high moral value in this activity alone. You talked about prisoners of war, it's funny that you have mentioned that, Surah Muhammad is so clear about them, and once again as expected, you will see the high moral value: "So when you meet the disbelievers ˹in battle˺, strike ˹their˺ necks until you have thoroughly subdued them, then bind them firmly. Later ˹free them either as˺ an act of grace or by ransom until the war comes to an end. So will it be. Had Allah willed, He ˹Himself˺ could have inflicted punishment on them. But He does ˹this only to˺ test some of you by means of others. And those who are martyred in the cause of Allah,1 He will never render their deeds void." The Qur'an is so clear about these issues, please don't listen to these people, slavery is very wrong!
The Quran's incompatibility with the modern world is not "double standards brought on by human beings". Muslims in America can try to rationalize it all they want, but the religion allows and even encourages these things, and it's used in Muslim-majority countries to justify them.
A truly good God and leader would NEVER allow the sexual abuse of ANY woman under ANY circumstances. Why would any woman follow this religion if this is what it really allows?
I am glad this is being discussed, Muslims today romanticize the predecessor way too much. I know there may be critics but I am glad what was practiced is discussed rather than the theory of how something should be practiced
Dr Shabir I admire your courage to take on such sensitive topics. Be careful while dealing with it as the enemies of Islam ascribe everything they did to concubines with Islam without blaming their forefathers for it who actually brought up this practise as they were non Muslims. Islam should stand out everywhere even in this issue. We have enough evidence of that . Plz highlight the Sahih hadis regarding this as Allah says give the message of Islam with wisdom
I absolutely agree, A truly good God and leader would NEVER condone the sexual harm of women at any time, at any place, by any person, and in ANY circumstances. It is NEVER appropriate to inflict sexual harm on another living being. Rules should be for protecting and NOT hurting women
A difficult topic to tackle with the kind of attempt at honesty displayed here. I applaud the host’s and the speaker’s courage so far. One must love the truth more than being right. Hopefully, they continue to discuss this topic rigorously and honestly.
Thank you very much both of you for telling the truth. Many people will find out these issues themselves anyway but it’s far more better when such issues are discussed and explained in a scholarly manner so that the public will know the context and different aspects of it
A great intellectual and honest discussion. Great work Drs Sofia and Shabbir. Can you please also provide the name of the book you mentioned in your discussion? JazakAllah khair.
Slavery still persists in countries such as Saudi Arabia especially with regard to foreign domestic workers and also in some Islamic African countries , but with a deceptive appearance
i thought islamically Allah cared about our happiness, what ur describing in Islamic law is mental torture and prison for the concubine. and I'm told Islam recommends marriage to us so we can fulfill our sexual desires, but what abt the concubine who is being forcibly raped essentially. what abt her desires for happiness and sexual pleasure??? this is so inconsistent with the rest of Islam. n I was told there is no inconsistency in the religion at all
This is one person's opinion. The scholars Imam Shafi stated that there must be consent between slave and master. One of the punishments for a man that raped a women was death according to the hadiths. Several of the hadiths and Quran verses go against any idea of torturing. Lastly Bro Shabir didn't dive into this power dynamic thing. Their is this assumption that to ever be in the lesser position one is worse off, but in reality this isn't true. Many people did not have the ability to survive on their own, remember it was very tribe back then, so a means to live was in selling oneself into slavery. Perhaps the overreaching concept is that we should be slaves to Allah and that their are tons of injunctions that make it easy to free a slave, but only one optional injunction with several conditions to make a slave. That one option is akin to POW and all those Hadith saying to not mistreat the slave would apply to the POW.
@@Isa-jk1xe actually there r two, u can also purchase a slave. also thats only one persons opinion, the majority of scholars, and the hanafi school of thought, which my parents follow, believe consent is not needed from the concubine, or even the wife
I absolutely agree, A truly good God and leader would NEVER condone the sexual harm of women at any time, at any place, by any person, and in ANY circumstances. It is NEVER appropriate to inflict sexual harm on another living being. Rules should be for protecting and NOT hurting women
@@kashmirichai123 Thats one of the absolute most evil and disgusting things I have ever heard. Women, wives are human beings too and abuse should NEVER be condoned
@@a.k.7341 actually in a hadith The Prophet (saw) stoned a man who molested a woman and according to the school of thought and verse 24:33 of the Quran a master MUST ask the consent of the person if she wants to be a concubine,she does not want to he a concubine,she can become a household worker,similar to a maid and must not be overworked and after a period of time like over a month or so she can ask for a contract and pay a fair amount for her freedom and The reason Allah(swt) didn't abolish it but punished the people who forced the woman was because in the 7th century it was very difficult for woman do get by after a war and those who did get by couldve been captured and abused very easily therefore whether she was a maid or concubine the will is always hers that comes into place,I understand this may seem like a harsh topic but now its abolished and you won't see a pious Muslim following this,and about slavery we demolished the name "slavery" but how many people today are in poverty,no food,no water,no electricity,education,no nothing and are working under chocolate companies? so what was that slavery we demolished of it still exists? the rights should be given to the slaves according to Islam,The slave is allowed to take his or her master to court if the deny the contract for emancipation.
All other religious ideologies have been reformed, in the sense that people cherry-pick the good parts and acknowledge and ignore the bad parts like slavery and concubinage in scripture. In Islamic apologetics however, all scholars start doing mental gymnastics with narrative to reconcile with the bad parts of scripture, simply because Islam is supposedly the verbatim of god and is perfect. This 'perfection' stance makes things so hard for the Islamic narrative, its painful to watch. The perfection stance prevents reformation. It also causes extreme outcomes like radicalization, and on the other side of the spectrum, apostasy.
So I wouldn't like to use the word cherry pick because in christianity I think we have a basis on which we can deny many moral atrocities. No where does the bible claim to be innerant not does it claim to be the direct speech of God. Altho in some places it's implied but usually it's not We Christians by nature don't have an obligation to follow many things Only that which is supported by understanding scripture though the words of Jesus.
if you have questions turn to the Quran. a scholar can not represent the religion itself but the best he can do is to present the religion as good as it is possible. so if you are not conviced with his answers,Which I am not. that doesnt mean the religion has a problem. you need to seek your answers from other scholars. or study arabic and study all the verses and the interprestaions regarding the matter.
Muslims should study other world religions. It will help them understand and appreciate the higher moral bar that other religions set. The father daughter duo are trying their best, but it's a lost cause. There is no way to justify the prophet's actions and views. The more I read the more disturbing it gets....
Please do share which other world religions you are talking about, certainly you must not be talking about Christianity or Judaism. So which world religion are you referring to???
Your comparison with one Paul that you quoted in Christianity to the goings on on slavery and concubinage is commendable. However, I wish to point out after going through that Christian text, slavery and concubinage was neither permitted, prescribed nor condoned in the Christian faith, it was only being commented upon while acknowledging it's existence. Here in the Quran it is made acceptable and the only way out of the teaching is to say that it was a thing of the past. So if we "let the Quran speak" then the issue of the thing being a thing of the past is unacceptable since it is not stated in the Quran. Please LET THE QURAN SPEAK.
My biggest question for the next video would be. If the Quran is truly the word of God why would it even mention and condone something as vile as cocubinage ? And everyone always says oh that’s just the way it was back then. That doesn’t justify God himself saying that practice is fine.
A potential answer would be: who are we to decide what God can and cannot say in His book? And by what moral standards do you judge the practice as "vile"? Don't forget that concubinage was a result of capturing people in wars. Btw, I'm not justifying anything I'm just saying that it's audacious to say that if God mentions subject X then it means that the whole message isn't truly His word? Do you also judge the old testament by the same modern liberal standard you've grown up in? And God knows best.
Well different interpretations, time and ideology. You might wanna check out the doctrine of Mutazila. Who don't consider Quran as eternal, but a product of it's time.
Having slaves is gradually eliminated in Islam, then how can concubinage be legal in Islam, where as a concubine is practically a slave? It's relatively simple to me. What Sultan's did was wrong and their miss-use of power.
Having slaves is not gradually eliminated in Islam. Are Islams rulings on slavery progressive as compared to the pre-islamic society, I would say yes. But the bottom line is slavery is legal in Islam. This stance does not change as the scripture progresses. Also, Islam is supposedly eternal. So I'm not sure how you claim slavery is "gradually" eliminated in Islam.
AOA I want to ask this question because I was thinking to buy two dogs, one a guard dog for outside safety wise and one a smaller one for keeping watch against jinn (alongside prayers Duas) but more importantly for companion/friendship within the family ( marriage isn't possible) . Is it permissible to keep a smaller pet dog only in selected areas of the house? My parents and I strive to be good Muslims but also we have found this puppy which is so cute and sweet and both myself and my sister who has been severely depressed and is unwell for years , are feeling happy and excited about it. Praying and keeping clean/Paak is safe to me, but I had figured I would not hug / cuddle the dog and ghusl after spending time with it or keep a muzzle on it when indoors and do not want it to lick me and only keep it in certain areas so the rest house areas remain paak and can be prayed in. Like it would not be allowed in some bedrooms and kitchen for ie. Plus seperate food and water container kept at all times . Please make the next video on this as many small dogs now are vaccinated and I do want to be a good Muslim and we all in family had our hearts set on it. And I want to know but also please remain mindful of keeping a respectable reply as we are not looking to shame, guilt, or one up another in who is a good Muslim or not. Just here for another perspective. I feel like it's just not recommended and is makrooh and is maybe is permissible if there is no licking and kissing and if take precautions? Much Thanks 🤍
As Salaam alaykum wa Rahmatullah yesterday morning watching the program Dr Safiyya did a segment on coffee. Could you please put that up on RU-vid as I'd like to share it with friends who are non Muslim. It was interesting to learn the drink was banned at one time in the middle East. Jazakum Allahu Khairun great program wa alaykum Salaam wa Rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Sorry for the delay. This segment will appear on our RU-vid channel tomorrow morning (Friday), God willing. Please remember us in your prayers. May Allah bless you and your loved ones and keep you on the straight path always.
I think it is important to note that generally speaking, only the wealthy could afford slaves. And it is harder for a wealthy man to get into paradise than it is for a camel to get through the eye of a needle.
Well at least this guy is honest about slavery/ concubines . These aren’t morals that we should follow now. Prophet Mohamed wasn’t perfect but a man in Arab society that took slaves and such.
@BlaZe Excalibur my point is scholars are humans and they can have their biases and misunderstandings too. Just because a normal person isn't a scholar doesn't mean they cannot question the validity of a scholar's arguments or opinions.
@Fauxsho94 The value of a slave was precious and a culprit would be punished if he killed one. What you left out of this passage was that if the slave was permanently harmed, he would be set free. The passage ends with the reminder that if you harm a slave, you can be be punished, lose your slave, or lose the productivity from your property. If you are a Muslim, you must support this passage as it is in the Torah and your Quran says you must believe the Torah as it is from allah.
@Fauxsho94 The Torah are the first 5 books of the Bible. Exodus is the second of those books. Quran 3:3 He has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book in truth, confirming what came before it, as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. If your Quran affirms the Torah, you have better be wary of condemning it if you follow Muhammad.
Quran 65:4 "...and for those who have no courses..." (ie those that are still immature). What about the child concubines (they have no monthly periods meaning they are prepubertal girls, child females) that are divorced from there appointed husbands. What are they to do? They have lost their virginity. What did Allah say how we should care for them?
What's embarrassing is that he summarized that time as if there were no civilizations that were aware of the problems with concubinage . Um they were called christians and they were in Arabia.
Lot of conjectures " might" "maybe" regarding treatment of concubines... I'm sure the relationship and engagement btwn muslim master and a personal concubine was much more than just owning a commodity...
I believe these discussions are referring to nonmuslim women taken after war- if a woman converts to Islam acc to many scholars she cannot remain a slave.
Allah is injustice with war captive non muslim women. I compelled to say this after reading Bukhari hadith and fiqh. they must not be in any commodity..but Islam has allowed them to be sell and buy as product. that is sad. the security of women prisoners of war could have been arranged differently. There was no need to do that. i am a muslim boy but sorry to say that. should not sell & buy them like product
@@khalidbangladesh3479ভালো হিসেবে বিয়ের আয়োজৱন করা যেতে পারে..গুনীমত হিসেবে যুদ্ধের কুসুম হতে কেনা বেচা গ্রহণযোগ্য হতে পারে না..বিশ্বাস না হলে ফিকহ গুলো দেখেন ইসলা কেনা বেচা অনুমতি দেয়
So what is diff between sex slave and concubine.....she can not even reject his master ....she is property of other person.....how harsh is this.....non muslim taunt muslim on this reality
I agree with shabir that concubinage is harsh reality of the time and we should present it as ideal situation but at the same time we cant ignore the historic context and the realties of that time . Judging someone to todays standard is not right either . There is a difference between what is preached by islam and what was allowed . Slavery was not preached but allowed. The consent today is way different that the consent at the time Prophet Muhammad, David , Solomon, Mosses or Abrahim
Wait, what. But if islam was meant to better humanity why would it allow the act of slavery and what was involved with it such as forcing yourself on the woman without consent and selling her in a market if slavery is considered to be the harsh reality of that time. Shouldnt islam completely say this is wrong and anyone who continues this practice will face a harsh punishment. Most of the things doctor dr shabir is talking about that happened then is what we know the slave trade also did to black people , and we know how evil that was...
@@ERASE-pc7uv shabir ali once said in another video something like "if it looks ugly on the ground then it means you are interpreting it wrong and there is a flaw in your understanding" ... well this looks ugly on the ground as i have just proven, so all i ask for is the right interpretation that doesnt have it looking like ugly acts. Also, if i was living in a world like that then maybe your right and i would never say that but surely someone who is supposed to be righteous and the messenger of god would say that ... so why didnt he? and why did the prophet not engage in anything to do with slavery so as to lead by good example instead he set bilal free but took others as slaves so he was involved in slave trade. This does not sound like something god would approve of.... unless god likes slavery / concubinage .
And what about the harsh reality of Quran 65:4(including pedophilia)? Do we also categorise this as 'what was done at the time of the prophet' but not fitting our current social dynamics?
Quran 65:4 "...and for those who have no courses..." (ie those that are still immature). What about the child concubines (they have no monthly periods meaning they are prepubertal girls, child females) that are divorced from there appointed husbands. What are they to do? They have lost their virginity. What did Allah say how we should care for them?
Jews and Christians can't really judge Muslims on this, many Saints in the Old Testament had concubines such as Solomon. It's better to just move forward and stand against it today.
Um sorry no that is a serious example of confirmation bias. The Christian Bible makes it clear that concubinage would be a mortal sin and adultery/mortal sin. Sorry but you are fooling yourself.
The Injil predated the Quran by 600 years but truly teaches us how to love our fellow human beings. The reason why concubines are not viewed as acceptable to Dr. Ally is because he is living in a Western society that was built on Christian principles. If Western society was based on Islam and the Quran, slavery and concubinage would still be followed as in classical Islam. Please get a copy of the Injil for yourself and read the Word of God.
@@rolvink2705 the so called injil, authorizes the old testament, quotes from it and never spoke against slavery, I guess it wasn't important. While actually in the Qur'an atleast we are told that it is a virtue to free slaves, you can have slaves but freeing a slave is seen as a virtuous act.
Real problem is rejection of God's commandments. Those who reject the Quran become criminals of God and thus worthy of punishment. Allah (s) refers to those who deny Verses of Quran as Mujrimeen. And that's not all,... such rejectors will have to burn in hell for long epocs of time after this life even if they went un-punnished in the first life.
A truly good God and leader would NEVER condone the sexual harm of women at any time, at any place, by any person, and in ANY circumstances. It is NEVER appropriate to inflict sexual harm on another living being, thats NEVER justice
আমি মুসলিম হিসেবে দু:খ প্রকাশ করছি..কিন্তুু এই হুজুর যা বলেছে সত্যি বলছে মন থেকে...আর এর বিরুদ্ধে গিয়ে সত্য বলেই মানুষ ভাবে আমি হিন্দু..এসব লোকেরা সত্য গ্রহণ করতে পারে না হাস্য কার
Allah is injustice with war captive non muslim women. I compelled to say this after reading Bukhari hadith and fiqh. they must not be in any commodity..but Islam has allowed them to be sell and buy as product. that is sad. the security of women prisoners of war could have been arranged differently. There was no need to do that. i am a muslim boy but sorry to say that. should not sell & buy them like product
Do you've Repetetive Compulsive Condition? Why do keep posting same brainless comments on every Islamic video? Are you OK? CONDEMN YOUR HINDU CAST SYSTEM THAT MURDERS MANY and OPPRESSES 100s MILLIONS at this MODERN TIME. NO ONE HAVE CONCUBINES, BUT HINDU CASTE SYSTEM CONTINUES TODAY.
@@Subxanallah1110 First not all islamic video. my comment is related with this topic. same comment every videos with this topic. second you can called me kufur for this but my family is muslim. and i angry for this with allah
