Ares99999 Ask people if a person they didn’t vote for are okay to lead. There is a REASON there is a progression in line for President. President, VP, Speaker of the House, etc... All were voted for by people. Appointed people have no business leading. Advisement is one thing, leadership is another.
As brilliant as Schiff and Sheen were in this scene, it's John Spencer's facial expressions that really carried it. The horror was written all over his face as Toby spoke and Leo slowly realized that everything he said was true and he had never realized that before. If scripted television ever gets better than this, I want to see it.
Breaking Bad. Better Call Saul. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. St. Elsewhere. NYPD Blue. The Wire. Person of Interest. Beverly Hills 90210. Hill Street Blues. Homicide: Life on the Streets. M*A*S*H. The Mary Tyler Moore Show. Bob Newhart Show. Cheers. All In The Family. Wiseguy. Mad Men. Game of Thrones. Cheers. Family Ties. The Sopranos. Good Times. Little House on the Prairie. The Waltons. Need I go on?
@@situated4 - Yes, you do, because you haven't named one better yet. Those you listed are indeed great shows - a couple perhaps even the equal of West Wing - but better? No. You're just wrong.
I love how uncomfortable they look as Toby is dressing them down, listing all of the ways things could have gone catastrophically wrong with what they did. You can tell they never really admitted to themselves how lucky they were to get out of the Rosslyn emergency with only a few bullet wounds.
Toby’s anger isn’t that he didn’t know. It’s that the two men he holds in the utmost regard, who he would and at this point had walked through fire for had lied. He knows every sacrifice the staff made. The long nights the hard times. He knows the truth would crush Josh, Sam. And CJ. It’s a deep betrayal and he needs them to know.
It's scenes like this that always made me like Toby and his interactions with Bartlett. Of course Toby is pissed he didn't know sooner. But why is he pissed? Because for all his grumbling and grumping and cynicism Toby is the true believer, the political idealist. He knows Jeb really is the great man and leader he looks like and is willing to hold him to it even if it means going toe to toe or calling him out. The leadership situation was murky because there was no signed letter. There was no signed letter because if there was someone would ask why. If someone asked why there's a signed letter Jeb would have to admit he has MS. If he admits he has MS he might not be able to be President. And if he can't be President he can never prove himself to his father. That's where Toby's sticking point and anger came from. You're a good man sir. You're a good leader. You are intelligent, compassionate, educated, and want to right for all of us. We are better for having you here. You don't need this job to make up for your father beating you. You shouldn't be hiding something from us so you can keep the job. And you can't do this job, effectively and honestly, if the people you appoint occasionally have to do it for you because you've been hiding a chronic illness. Of all the staff Toby is the one person who can get under Bartlet's skin, cut past the crap and masks of a public official with the skill of a surgeon and then deliver a point with precision of a sniper. Abby may keep him grounded and Leo may keep him focused but it's Toby who keeps him honest, making him face the really hard things about himself so he can overcome them and serve the ideals and functions of his office and the people who elected him.
"You don't need this job to make up for your father beating you. You shouldn't be hiding something from us so you can keep the job." Yes, and sadly the precise opposite of what we're dealing with today with the Orange Imbecile.
It reminded me that one line that Dolores said in Jeds head. “Your father was a prick who couldn’t get over the fact he wasn’t has smart as his brothers.” When in reality he was a prick who couldn’t get over the fact he wasn’t as smart as his son. Jed thought he had to prove himself more and more to his father but the more he succeed the more his father resented him in some way. Like what Stanley said “Good because it will never happen.” I thought that aspect of Jed was very compelling.
No, it was Toby being upset that no one, especially Bartlett, trusted him enough to tell him. And they don't trust him for good reason. He's too "morally superior" to everyone to keep a secret when it matters, and yet he can never understand the weight of the decisions the president has to make everyday. And Toby never shows any empathy to the president for that fact either. Only judgment. This is why Bartlett gets so mad at him, and chastises him from not once thinking to ask how his friend is doing.
@@mriswith88 Toby doesn’t have any empathy when it comes to giving important information to the public. He rightfully believes that the public should know their commander in chief has an illness that could affect decision making.
If Toby really thought there was a coup, he should have resigned and gone public. The chief of staff engaged in a coup, and the only two people Toby tells are the two people who already know?
Actually, he wasn't right. If you watch In the Shadow of Two Gunmen, the VP does give the orders, he does so on Leo's recommendation, but Hoynes very much gives the order. While the constitutional questions did linger, Hoynes was effectively in charge. I hope Toby doesn't carry a lot of money in his pockets.
@@jasonjd84 he was wrong about who made the call, but he was right about the letter and why there wasn't one. And that's why Bartlett was pissed, because Toby was right about that.
@@Shockwave33 Toby is my favorite character on the show and I always have gotten him in every "which WW character are you" quiz for the last 15 years. But he is not right about the letter. Think about this for a moment, Toby is suggesting that a legal document with the President's signature removing him from power just be kept sitting around for a special occasion, that is no less ludicrous than Margaret's suggestion of forging his signature. MS or no MS, that is a crazy idea. Linking any of this back to Roslyn is silly on his part and he is wrong about every element of that scenario from start to finish. This scene works because both men are so passionate, Toby is right about hiding the MS, he has every reason to be angry as both a citizen and as a loyal counselor. Bartlet is angry because he knows that but can't at that stage admit it to himself, let alone Toby. Meanwhile, Bartlet is not wrong when he challenges Toby back about his motives and about whether he's upset that only 15 people knew or that 15 people knew *before him*. Toby has always been sensitive about his place in Bartlet's inner circle. tl;dr Toby is right about Bartlet hiding the MS, but dead wrong about any of the Roslyn scenario.
that is the power of Sorkin. Writing an epic scene with three different characters and keeping each of them with their own motivations and personalities. Not as easy as it seems.
This was also made so much more interesting by how we the audience felt when Danny was asking who was in charge when this was happening. We sided with CJ and thought "give em a break, they just got shot at, it's gonna be fine." Not only were Leo and the President wrong, we the audience were wrong too.
I wanted CJ to lie to Danny, but that was never going to work because CJ isn't a great liar and Danny can read her like a 10 step recipe. I didn't want this White House to suffer a massive political scandal because some asshole shot the President and they weren't prepared to handle the situation perfectly. I think in any normal administration this would be forgiven so much more easily except the fact that the MS diagnosis would mean they had to have at least thought about this situation happening ahead of time and did nothing about it, rendering them more negligent than otherwise. It just wasn't a fair situation to anybody.
Toby is 100% correct, and the presidents anger is really a mask for knowing in his heart that he betrayed his country and his most loyal friends by his lies. Leos finally realizes it and it rocks him to his soul. Greatest TV show ever made, we will never see its like again.
this is my favorite episode of the West Wing. Because Bartlet's position is very rarely on morally shaky ground. In this arc, he had no ground to stand on.
Hmmm ... and yet, even the President of the USA is just a human. And in this, he's not worth any more then every other human. I find it a bit strange that the POTUS is often attributed some sort of (demi)godlike status and is treated like that. This goes on and on, so that even his family and pet gets a special recognition (First Lady, First Family, First Son/Daugther First Dog ...).
@@chrishieke1261 The First Family is what Americans have instead of a monarchy. So they invest the office of President with the respect and dignity expected toward a king. But it's the office they respect, not simply the man. To be POTUS is to wield tremendous power and bear terrible responsibility.
Speak to everyone the same, respect them and be honest. I have in the past given directors of large companies very frank and honest feedback as if they were a friend, they always appreciate it. You do have to do it in relative privacy of course.
Jed is pissed (as demonstrated by his ad hominem attacks on Toby) because he knows Toby is right. Toby is concerned about the republic more than an individual's health ... as it should be.
Exactly so, that is the proverbial slippery slope and they went down it. Without such a person demonstrating to them just what they did they would do it again without thinking, Toby had a massive impact on Leo there, POTUS was angry he was wrong and shocked. The character of Toby is the best I have seen in any show, always true to the characters sensibilities, even the shuttle incident was in character.
@@indroneilbiswas Yes, he was nominated in 2000, 2001 and 2002 but only won on 2000. Funny thing is that in 2001 it was Bratley Whitford (Josh Lyman) who won, and in 2002 it was John Spencer (Leo McGarry) who did it. On a side note, Alan Alda (Arnold Vinikc) won in 2006
For everyone, Toby was exactly correct in the situation that happened. Nothing was left out. Leo made all the choices as someone who was not chosen to lead and should have supported the vice president with his choices. Still, his lack of care for the president and that he attacked it the wrong way was absolutely horrible. Bartlet has put his life on the line for his country as he is stressed all the time with so many decisions and yet he has proven himself as if he did not have his condition. I love this show and my teacher for showing this show to us in AP government. ALSO I LOVE ALL OF YOU!
110452ND asking “How are you feeling?” Doesn’t make the president and Leo an iota less wrong. You ask about personal issues of health after dealing with the fact personal issues of health caused a coup in this country and there was a conspiracy of keeping news of an illness from the public. The VP, in my opinion, shouldn’t have kept quiet...he didn’t in fact as he left a trail of breadcrumbs did Toby to follow.
Thank You for uploading this...I have always found this an argument...Toby says the Vice President was "merky at best"....VP John Hoynes said in the Situation Room when everyone looked at him he then said (yes with an uncertain facial expression) I think we'll go with Leo on this on. Even the President asks for advice from NSA and Joints Chiefs (ESPECIALLY when any President does not have military experience)
Just realized how odd this scene is given how sacred they treat the Oval Office in other episodes. Like, at the end of Season 2 there is that arc with Joshua suffering from PTSD and in an outburst he yells at Bartlett in the Oval Office. They make a HUGE deal in that episode how no one raises their voice against the POTUS, and especially, especially not to his face in the Oval office. ...But that's exactly what Toby does here and it's accepted.
...and so did Bartlett, underneath all his bluster & anger. It was at that moment he stopped deluding himself and realized what he had & continued doing was *wrong*.
@@HB7313 Dude, I am a deep conservative and even I would vote for Bartlett. That's the rub though, no liberal will ever be this effective IRL. They had to make Bartlett a virtual Ubermencsh for it to work.
@@Elthenar I feel you man, I'm deeply liberal and I know that liberals are indecisive and prone to infighting. I love this show but that's my biggest criticism - a guy like Barlett would never become President
The thing with these shows is that we would all obviously want these guys running the country because they’re all written to be great at their jobs and as moral, honorable and honest as possible, because we need to like them to want to keep watching the show.
Everyone is commenting about how Toby was right - and I agree, he was - but what's interesting to me about this conversation is Bartlet's response. "You know your indignation would be a lot more interesting to me if it weren't quite so covered in crap." Yes, Toby is right, and there should have been a signed letter but wasn't because Bartlet was concerned about what the public would think of his MS. But Toby's anger at the situation isn't driven by indignation over a "coup d'etat" but rather by a personal sense of betrayal. Toby feels like the president broke his trust by not telling him (and others) about his MS, while Bartlet feels like he should never have had to reveal his diagnosis to anyone.
@@Tigerman1138 Toby always takes it personally when he is cut out. He is so obsessed with his job, any lack of inclusion not only makes him slower to react but feel like you dont trust him. You remember what happened when Josh didnt include him in the final season.
I just saw this series during the shutdown and it was extraordinary just like everybody else has been saying for 20 years. I kick myself I didn't see it back then. It was bittersweet to watch it - fictionalized as it was - and to compare to current government in the US.
Thats the beauty of this show, no drama queen or teenage attitudes, these are fully formed characters at the top of their curve supporting each other, sometimes aggresively.
This is so good. The president can only defend himself by victim playing - which normally is way beneath him! - and mentioning the fact that he was shot and Toby is not concerned about it. He knows that the way this affair was handled on a governing level was plum stupid, be he cannot deal with this stupidy at the moment. They get a scolding from Toby like they were schoolboys! Great scene.
Yeah it's some great acting from Richard Schiff when he responds to that - you can tell he's surprised to hear such a lousy argument coming from President Bartlet of all people.
@adamobarca i mean toby became really sensitive to anybody who "quit" or "gave up" after his brother gave up his own life because he was depressed. i don't think it was a policy thing. in any case, toby was the most passionate character on the show, and i was sorry to see his lines cut. such a good actor, richard schliff.
Toby was right... and in his shoes I would have tendered my resignation and walked out that door. A good man...a TRULY good man... knows when he's done wrong and admits it. Bartlett decided he had to be the bigger man and win the shouting match, but at the end of the day what he did was wrong... and what he did to Toby was simply bullying someone who called him out. There's nothing good or noble in that.
I like this as an example of people arguing and emotions running high but not turning into a soap opera, because people's feelings and reasons are understandable
Jason Desrosiers the problem is that Hoynes didn’t have the authority to give those orders, and the advice for the orders were coming from Leo who did not have the authority either.
That was an issue that was discussed. However, that is not the issue that Toby is addressing. He is claiming, incorrectly, that Leo gave the orders, and his issue is that Leo is not elected. Hoynes, who is elected did give the orders, but Toby, who wasn't there, is assuming otherwise. I hope Toby doesn't have a lot of money in his pockets.
This is what made the show great. Toby had a line during the crisis about ambiguity in federal law about the line of succession was bad, but they got through the crisis and everyone lived. But all these episodes later, their actions had consequences, and it was Toby who brought it home to them.
Such a brilliant scene that I hate to nitpick, but something about the early exchange when Bartlet and Toby were discussing the leadership crisis after Bartlet was shot. ("The VP has the authority to assume my office", "Not last May he didn't", "That's because I never signed the letter") Yes, the President can send a letter to Congress stating he is unable to discharge his office and trigger the succession of the VP to the office as acting President, but the VP can also trigger the succession by sending a letter along with a majority of the Cabinet to Congress, declaring the President's inability. Although Bartlet was obviously incapacitated due to the surgery and anesthesia and thus couldn't declare himself so, VP Hoynes very well could have rounded up Cabinet secretaries and sent an emergency declaration to Congress to ensure continuity amid the uncertainty. The political aspects of doing so are another discussion, but he COULD have done it.
There could be any number of reasons that the 25th amendment letter could have been in file somewhere. It’s good practice to have it ready in case of any medical emergency. You don’t have to have ms to be prone to a medical emergency.
@MrJMR1985 The point is there doesn't need to be a letter signed by the President, because that isn't the only mechanism by which the President's authority can be transferred to the Vice President. If the Vice President's authority was murky at best, it's not because the President didn't sign a letter and leave it in a drawer. It's because the Vice President and the Cabinet didn't sign a letter, which they have the Constitutional right to do in such a situation.
Yes he would, he was supporting the president there, sometimes to help you must hurt, when Bartlets anger came out he knew that his task was done and he quietened down. Bartlets anger was to cover his pain of failure.
This cannot happen now, because of section 4 added to the 25th Amendment on February 19th 1965. This problem existed during the Kennedy assassination, so for the TV drama they are using a problem that did actually exist in the past.
I know you're comment is a year old, but I just wanted to say section 4 of the 25th amendment doesn't prevent things like what happened in the show from happening. In fact almost that exact scenario happened after the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan in 1987. Reagan had to go into surgery but Vice President Bush didn't want to invoke section 4. In the show we see the VP unwilling to invoke clause 4 after Bartlett was shot and put under general anaesthetic, hence the ambiguous line of command in the immediate aftermath.
bt10ant I know he hated the leaked “military shuttle” with his astronaut brother or cousin. Schiff said,”There is no way Toby would betray the president like that. I feel he must have been covering for someone.” Toby wanted to take the fall for the memo to the Treasury Department instructing the Secret Service and SS Agent in charge of Eagle refused to let him take the fall noting “The Secret Service does not comment on procedure.”
It's a funny thing, but everything I have seen Richard Schiff in, post-TWW, all I can think of is "Toby ...? Is that you ...???" ... Although I have to say, I quite like him in 'The Good Doctor' ... he brings the same kind of 'moral compass' energy to his character in that, as he did with 'The West Wing' ...
Toby's Indignation?! He doesn't have indignation (anger at perceived unfair treatment). Toby was 100% right and wasn't upset about him being treated unfairly he was upset in the president monumentally failing in government responsibility, his dishonesty towards it, and further covering it up. The indignation, (and self-righteous) is on Bartlett and he was projecting it on to Toby. Bartlett's argument was "covered in crap". Sorkin would pull from many presidencies for source material, and tweak it, so it wasn't outright thievery. This was from the Reagan administration, were there was a "chain if command" issue, when Reagan was hospitalized by an assassination attempt.
I love this show for many reasons, but mostly for how it now weighs on the political conscience of our nation. It’s a magnificently told story that insists we know better & should be ashamed of ourselves.
@MrJMR1985 haha i guess there's always two different ways of looking at it. i felt like the creators of the show used toby to draw out the fact that yes, even a good president like bartlet has flaws. i feel like toby leaked it not because of policy but because of his brother who was on that shuttle, if i remember correctly. toby fought with josh over santos b/c he didn't appreciate how santos quit congress and had to be dragged into the race because his bro had committed suicide/quit on life
He didn't tell Toby because Toby wouldn't let him get away with it for as long as he did. Toby is truth incarnate and for him to know while the president won't tell the American people is blasphemy. Bartlett would have to look Toby in the eye everyday knowing he knows. Technically Toby was a liability to Bartlett in that aspect.
The same thing happened during the Wilson administration when Edith Wilson basically took over the country after her husband had a stroke. I'll leave it there.
Toby's brother David, was on the shuttle that experienced a major mechanical function with the bay doors not closing. The shuttle did land safely. David committed suicide because he had cancer. Toby leaked the existence of a classified "military" shuttle and that's what got him fired.
We never uh... actually got an answer on this from the show. I THINK, personally, unless Sorkin clarified it somehwere, that Toby didn't do it. I think he was taking the fall for someone. IT wasn't within his character to do that.
The Vice President together with a majority of the Cabinet are able to sign a letter declaring the President incapacitated, and it would have the same legal effect as if the President did so himself, i.e. transferring executive authority to the Vice President.
Bartlett has a point though with “and the walls came tumbling down”……it worked out because the people in the box did what was best for the country. Was it exactly legal? No. But I don’t quite see how it was entirely unethical
