Covenant Theology Debate -- Baptist vs. Presbyterian -- Michael Horton vs. Jeff Johnson

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This video contains the audio of the debate between Jeff Johnson (author of The Fatal Flaw and a valued contributor to this blog) and Michael Horton concerning the Credobaptist versus the Paedobaptist view of Covenant Theology. The debate took place at the 2012 Semper Reformanda Conference at Grace Family Baptist Church.
It is a very interesting and helpful discussion between two men who hold to the idea that the Mosaic Covenant is a republication of the Covenant of Works. And I would just add here my special appreciation for Jeff, who has been more to helpful to me in properly understanding Covenant Theology than perhaps any other single person.
Video created by ‪@brandonadams07‬
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Опубликовано:

11 сен 2023

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Комментарии : 12

@brunorosi 4 месяца назад

I'm truly grateful that these debates are happening and that we are at least trying to listen and understand one another.

@rjc9537 10 месяцев назад

“For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” ‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭17‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Jesus = Grace Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant that He gave to Israel in order to introduce his greatest Covenant of Grace through Faith. This is the covenant that we are currently living under. We could say it’s a continuation of the Abrahamic covenant or we can call it the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13) As Paul states: “Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭23‬-‭26‬ ‭ESV‬‬ As far as having or being required to live under the law. We have something greater that the law in us, we have the law giver living inside of us and guiding us by His Grace! “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,” ‭‭Titus‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭ESV‬‬ God stepped down temporarily from his throne, took on the form of corruptible flesh, sacrificed Himself in order to reconcile us to Him and Rose on the 3rd day in order to destroy and defeat spiritual death and because He lives we Live! 😇😇😇

@DanielBShaw 3 месяца назад

Michael Horton lost me at 21:15 when he said God promises faith and repentance to baptized children. If the child never receives faith, then it's not because the child rejected God. The child was simply not elect. This sounds tenuous at best.

@mv9044 6 дней назад

Question, isn’t this what baptists do as well when they baptize adults? There is no guarantee that they are truly elect some still fall away even after a seemingly genuine profession of faith.

@DanielBShaw 6 дней назад

@@mv9044 I think the difference would be that Baptists don't view baptism as a promise from God. Instead, Baptists see baptism as an act of obedience and an outward sign. But I agree that it's a similar situation if the person falls away. But even then Baptists would blame the person for not being sincere in their faith.

@pcjenkin 29 дней назад

The Old Covenant The New Covenant 1. Blood of Animals 1. Blood of Christ 2. Written on Stone 2. Written on Hearts 3. Shadow 3. Substance 4. Glorious 4. More Glorious 5. Had an End 5. Has no End 6. Law of Moses 6. Law of Messiah 7. Law of Works 7. Law of Faith 8. Law of Sin and Death 8. Law of Spirit of Life 9. Many Sacrifices 9. One Sacrifice 10. Powerless to Save 10. Power to Save 11. Annual Atonement 11. Eternal Atonement 12. Earthly Tabernacle 12. Heavenly Tabernacle 13. Ministry of Death 13. Ministry of Life 14. Outer Form - Flesh 14. Inner Reality - Spirit 15. Ministry of 15. Ministry of Condemnation Reconciliation

@paulhallett1452 Месяц назад

It is always powerful, at the beginning of so many intra-rebellion dialogues about mutually exclusive views and irreconcilable differences (and boy, you could have a lot of such dialogues), to hear some random dude just step up and “hold my beer” to whatever caricature rebels hold of Popes and Bishops - and just: “BOOM - hear ye and BEHOLD, all ye children of men and of nations - you have heard it said that ye shall believe some things and verily not others - but I SAY - we shall some believe such and shall some not believe such and whatsoever we shall believe it shall be by a Book which gave not itself to us but by those we protest - yea - and what it is we shall believe and not believe is thus clear unto all men even unto many thousands of the One Body - by the authority vested in me by my social amiability and internalized incoherence - but yay it shall come pass that because we each believe what we believe and because and/or notwithstanding we each do not believe what we do not believe - for unto us we have categories - yea - even essentials and fellowships and many words ever anew - I do and can declare over and to you that I speak it into reality that we fallible disputants shall dwell together eternally in Heaven where apparently we shall see each other”. As a Catholic you have to realize - protesters don’t hate popery - they hate having one pope. They are the forefathers of liberalism and self-define reality as much or more than any self-identifying gender fluid zebra mussel or tetradactyl around. Yay! Thanks Luther and Calvin - they have their rewards.

@paulhallett1452 Месяц назад

33:00 minutes in and am waiting with bated breath for something to help make out the modernist minutiae dividing these two semi-coherent speakers

@christaselig6735 5 месяцев назад

Thr introduction is nauseatingly namby-pamby and overly apologetic and man-pleasing, and I just have no knowledge whatsoever of any Reformer ever being so.

@wretchedsinnerRighteousSavior 10 месяцев назад

This was pretty good. The main issue though is the deception that God is done with national Israel - despite Him saying over and over and over He will never forsake them all. Even Paul says Israel will be saved while at the same time setting a clear distinction between national Israel and the Church. Zechariah says 1/3 Israel will be saved. Over and over. This is the main flaw in reformed theology.

@dennisfetherbay2946 9 месяцев назад

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Ephesians 2:11-18

@Spurgeon_General Месяц назад

Not a problem for reformed theology if you’re postmillennial. Reformed amills have no answer for Romans 11, but postmills affirm that when the fullness of nations are won to Christ (eventually through a successful and gradual great commission) then Israel will be provoked to jealousy and be saved.