Crazy MTG Scandals That Changed The Game 

pretty sure that in this specific case, that was a bad ruling by the judge. So bad they made a rule to clarify so it couldn't happen again. in most cases yes, i agree, but here. no. that judge was wrong, and the spanish speaking judge backing him up makes it worse. This isn't a local game shop, it's serious competitive play and it can have harsh and lasting consequences for the players. my response would have been "show me the rule." shortcuts are not rules, and enforcing a skip on a static ability has always been sleazy and underhanded, but even those cases when its enforced its usually steps afterwards, not the phase after.

@@Rjthewolf Shortcut are rules, they are part of the Tournament rules and they explicitly mention that once you use an established shortcut you cannot use it in a different way. Even the CR mentions them (724.1c). You may have a case as they are not THAT strongly explicit with regard to combat at least now, I don't know how they used to be in the past.

Rules are important but when a mistake that obvious is made because of a dumb rule and someone speaking English as a second language it 100% should warrant a pass on the rules.

@@Orca00001 No, with judging there's a zero tolerance policy when it comes to tournament play. In FNMs, sure. While I entirely agree that this particular situation is completely stupid, I still stand by the judges decision on this. If judges started to allow take-backs on such situation, it will end up being abused. Believe me, Tournament players are ruthless in taking advantage of every, little single thing they may come across.

Nah def the judges fault on this particular situation.

I couldn’t have said it better.

I was actually getting completely enraged watching that clip. Poor cesar.

I got so angry at that point. Feels like his opponent is just being an asshole when intentions are clear.

@@GhostGK21 I'm more annoyed with the judges siding against cesar.

@@ShorinRyu74 yeah, I assume “combat” shortcut is more of a colloquial thing than hard rules, and it’s a very reversible game state.

Pretty much. I'd have just told them "fuck you", given them all the middle finger, and walked out. Dude definitely handled it better than I would have.

@@Bigj089 You likely would not as that would have given you an automatic loss, rather than another 2 games to actually beat miste ruleshark. There's also a LOT of money on the line in Protour.

The judge was calling it a missed trigger. As far as I know, a "may" trigger can only be missed, so he couldn't miss this trigger right?

@@joaksannan551 I can guarantee you I would have, there's a reason I don't compete in things like that. It brings out the worst competitive side of people.

@@Daz1One You can miss forced triggers (not may) if they are beneficial to you.

And attack with his vehicle. He got neither.

Even if he was allowed to crew his Vehicle during the beginning of combat, it would not get +2/+0 Targets are chosen when the triggered ability is put on the stack, which in this case happens as a turn based action before any player would get priority. He cannot make his Vehicle a Creature “in response” (Note that the ability in question must target an Artifact Creature)

That depends on what the meaning of the word is, is.

@@rejektppc every one live knew this was a duche bag move, but the commentators were told to be nice.

@@brucedavis191 it was a joke. Look up Clinton "meaning of the word is".

It isn't like the rules are open for interpretation. They are explicit. It did specially say in the master rule book that combat means declare attackers. It would be a bad ruling to say he meant beginning of combat as the wizards of the coast master rulebook says otherwise.

@@mr.voidroy6869 ...and Wizards didn't see the utter absurdity of coining "combat" as an official shortcut for "declare attackers" rather than the more obvious "go to COMBAT" at the time? Heesh. I'm glad they changed it.

When you are going to play overseas and learn a few words to call the phases. You learn to pass to the beggining of combat and suddenly it means you skip your next two turns.

To be fair, the use of this specific slang had been exported to other languages as well. I don't know about Spanish, but in Finnish the use of the word: "Kompatiin" was interpreted as a shortcut for going into Declare Attackers Step. At least according to most Judges around here.

@championchap yeah, the judge did his job, and thankfully this highlighted a pretty big flaw in the rule system with this "shortcut". I have always considered it "going to the attack phase"... since that is what it is called. I have been in one tournament, a draft one. I think I might have run into this one and thought "wtf?" and just figured it was a strange rule that I had to accept. But I might remember it wrong. It was unlikely that I was going to win anyway. But reading through the comments, someone points out what I thought as well... his card does not say "may", it says "at the beginning of combat give target creature..." So even with the shortcut, he should not have been able to use it, even if that was his intent. Two judges, and they both missed that. Only with a legal target should it have been possible to skip the step

@@thergonomic You only do this, when there are no triggers or nobody wants to crew anything or tap potential attackers. Magis in retrospective is most of the time very weird to look at.

Very dishonest.

What I don't get is if its not a May ability then it HAS to happen so there shouldn't be a possible way to skip its trigger right?

@@Eddysamson1 I haven't played physical magic (only the online version) but I believe the rules are if you don't remember to declare an action it does not happen regardless of wording

it's perfectly consistent.

Thats why all my cards are in german.

The key thing here is that "go to combat" didn't have a codified meaning at this point. It was colloquially used by players and understood (by most) to have one meaning. The problem is they are at a tournament of a game where the meaning of words is very important. It was a bs call by the judge. They should never use words or phrases that don't have specific meanings within the rules to make a call.

@Exo Megalo Ergaleio Exei Apo Kato Kai Alla Dio not if the joke wasn't meant for you, no

Not all combat is in combat phase

Seriously, such a dick move to argue ruling semantics to get the upper hand in a game.

The rule worked both ways. Back then, if I say "combat" (intending to declare attackers), and my opponent say "sure, go ahead", I could freely declare any creatures to attack. If my opponent wanted to do something before I attack, they would have to say so instead. So, back then, If I said "combat?", opponent said sure, and I attacked, they couldn't say "hold up, I want to cast Cryptic Command, tapping your creatures and draw a card". Sure, this is something you just "had to know", but it was how the rules was. Don't get me wrong. I'm happy they changed the rule. It caused a lot of issues in that block, since a lot of cards did stuff at the beginning of combat. It had just never been an issue before.

Well, I wouldn't mind those judges moving to yugioh ...

at the start of your match, put out your hand for a handshake, as soon as you have thier hand, raise your other arm, look to the judges and say "My opponent concedes" win every match, GG, WotC hate me.

@@ffiisskkeenn in this scenario the general result would be something like Active player: Combat? Non-active player: beginning of combat Indicating "I understand that youd like to move to combat, and potentially declare attackers, I may have a play in declare attackers, are we good to go there" I haven't understood "Combat?" as anything but "beginning of combat" in a long time, the short cute for declare attackers is to start stating attacks and see if you get interrupted, like saying "pass" and getting" "EoT" as a response.

Well, no. "I want to go to combat" is interpreted as "I want to go to my combat phase", which has the following steps: Beginning of combat, declare attackers, declare blockers, damage step and end of combat step (I think). Normally, nothing happens in the beginning of combat step, so it is short-cutted to skip that, if you do not specifically mention "Go to beginning of combat" instead of combat in general, since you are expected to refer to combat, or the combat phase, as a whole. In that same vein, you were expected to already be in the beginning of combat step at that point, not in the end of the main phase, if you looked at your opponent and asled "Combat?" so you could no longer take main-phase action, if they did respond. That question was basically short-cutted to "I will end my main phase, assume you have nothing you want to do in response to that and now pass priority in the beginning of combat step over to you." Otherwise, if I asked "Combat?" and you decided to tap my Llanovar Elves in response to that, I could tap them and play a creature with the mana, because I asked to go to the beginning of combat step, meaning we were still in my main phase and you responded, so I get main phase priority afterwards. Is that the normal way people mean it? No. The problem, is that going to combat is a more nuanced situation in MTG, then is necessary a lot of the time. And if you are not being completely clear, it is interpreted against you. An intend rule there is in my eyes much more reasonable, as intend was quite clear here.

@@Furavara chill, man, Lovuschka was just being facetious. The situation warranted it, honestly.

@@Furavara the card literally says 'combat' he said 'combat'. By the literal explaination of the card, should have been allowed to do it

Me, as a defending player: So, is it time for me to remove your creatures, amirite? :u

@@abuelovinagres4411 or tap them all down

Yeah Yu-Gi-Oh is my main game and honestly most of the exposure to modern and standard I get thru this channel since I only play commander so I was kind of confused this was a controversy. Between this and the whole you don't actually have to resolve a search you activate ruling I'm surprised with how much MTG lets players get away with

I would say that is mostly based on assumptions, you wouldn't know if the other player wasn't playing original BLS or not, so "legal target" wise you would have to take the literal, especially now with BLS, BLS envoy of the beginning, Toon BLS, BLS super soldier, BLS soldier of chaos, BLS sacred soldier, and BLS envoy of the evening twilight. which one am I naming if I name bls, do I get them all? And you also can't assume the whole "Never seen competitive play" portion to reason they aren't playing a card because of rogue decks and the freedom players have in deck building.

@@hentaidancer This event took place when there was only BLS and Envoy, and BLS never had support back then.

@@wolfie-_-ranger7932 I did say "especially now" to emphasize another point in time. My point is still valid in which the opponent has no knowledge beforehand what exactly is in my deck and if I am playing Envoy and/or original BLS.

@@hentaidancer Except they clearly did, otherwise they wouldn't have named that card to begin with. Everyone involved knows which card you're saying.

Yeah, Borborygmos/Pithing Needle is pedantic AF, but good that the rule was tweaked so players don't have to worry about accidentally naming a similarly-named card. Dryad Arbor is why I like games having explicit zones for each type of card in play (like Yugioh having monster, spell/trap, and field card zones, and actual card placement matters a LOT), rather than just "this is how I like to arrange my field." The "combat" one is just sheer bullshit. Spinning a colloquial shortcut into a hard ruling is stupid. And there should never be a way to skip certain parts of your turn (I can see skipping the entire combat/battle phase of a turn, and in turn, main phase 2 if you don't want to attack on a turn, since that's actually strategic, but not skipping a part of the combat/battle phase)

It's discouraging for FIRST language English speakers!

I'm appalled that the humans involved with that situation didn't have the balls to speak up and say what was probably obvious to everyone - that the climate that produced this "misunderstanding" (which wasn't even that, it was more like a debate where one side is just telling the other that they have no recourse to their decision) wouldn't produce anyone willing to say "look obviously this is ridiculous, let's have the dignity to let happen what we know should happen here." That lack of willingness to speak up when something bad is happening is why corrupt politicians are capable of doing what they do.

I play with him here in panama he always do this win at every cost

He speak perfect english

So most of these are both people knew what was intended but cause of its big tournament they want to win at any cost and rules lawyer it up thats why i like casual play better cause tournament play make everyone rules lawyer's and the land creature one is what u get when u dont pay attention to everything on the board i get that these high level tournament players pretty much know the cards once the see the art work it still pay to take the extra 2 seconds to look and make sure it what u think it is

You would say “go to my beginning of combat step”. At the time “Combat” by itself was a shortcut to attack.

@@NikachuMTG So in the past you could just skip phases? i mean its a triggered ability and he has at least one legal target even if he wanted to shortcut, the trigger would enter the stack as soon as he moved out of his main phase, and he would need to refuse the trigger before actually getting into the declare attacker step. no under no circumstance should this have even been a thing in this situation. when combat happened in the main phase sure. But they already changed that at that point, so it had its own full phase there is no excuse for that judge to say "yeah sucks being you" instead of letting it rollback because of the misunderstanding and explaining that in any future case hes gonna need to declare beginning of combat. TLDR: That Judge is wrong and that was a disgusting thing to watch.

@@NikachuMTG so if I said combat and declared attackers, my opponent has no chance to tap down my creatures before they attack?

@@TrixyTrixter F'ing this. Perfect argument.

@@ricklawrence2515 Before yes, if you say combat and by then they don't tap your creatures you would be able to declare attackers because of how the rulings where before

So the name of the creature "Borborygmos Enraged" is not Borborygmos?

@@knightlon No, the name of the card is Borborygmos Enraged. Borborgymos is a different card.

@@envytee9659 I never mentioned a "name of the card" in my question.

this is why there are deck lists submitted in some tourneys. Let me point to the card. Or choose from a list of all valid cards in alphabetical order.

@@knightlon pithing needle calls for a card name, not a creature name

Yeah. Whereas the other two were legitimate rules mistakes by the players that were disadvantaged, the second one was the guy just being sneaky.

@@GoldenSunAlex You have to say the name of the card when it's played. He said the name of the card. If the other dude was unfamiliar with the card, he could have asked. It's both a land and a creature and it was separated from both his two other lands and his one other creature. It's not his fault his opponent wasn't paying attention.

@@chrismanuel9768 Still sneaky

@@chrismanuel9768 it was separated because it was untapped, the guy knew what he was doing

@@MrPsyren99 Well yes it's a tournament he's there to win

Probably one reason they started printing more and more cards with "at the beginning of combat, before you attack" effects to remind players that this step exists.

@@ForeverLaxx Not a single card in magic says "at the beginning of combat, before you attack"

@@filipefernandes8669 Paraphrased lines usually aren't on the printed card, yes. You caught me paraphrasing. Oh no. Would you like a cookie, or do I need to activate that ability during the beginning of combat for you to get it? Shove off, kid.

@@ForeverLaxx - I mean, just admit where you're wrong, no need to get hostile. "Beginning of combat" means beginning of combat, which is _always_ before you declare any attacks, so it's clear what it means. There are some old cards that say things like, "cast only before the combat damage step" like Berserk, but those are because of updates to clunky old templating.

@@filipefernandes8669 "Activate only during your turn, before attackers are declared."

That poor guy probably never played Magic again. Just reading this got me angry, jesus i hate rule sharks so much.

sorry, but the head judge was incorrect in this situation

So both the player and the head judge were dickheads. It's really sad, I hope it didn't ruin the game forever for the player that was cheated.

that judge was outright wrong, you should've reported him to wizards. the second time he clearly said what exact phase, start of combat phase, turn phase 5, any clearer and it would've shown through his opponents opaque black heart

I would have beaten my opponent into a comatose state.

Sort of. The ruling specifically states that creatures must be in front of lands. If you don't play creatures.......

Yeah we don't talk about those weird players

@@CSHummer you can't ignore us forever

holy shit that would be tilting, why the hell would anyone do that??? ...oh wait was it just to annoy their opponent?

@@becausewin There was a dude on the pro tour who did that (also with his cards facing his opponent) because that's just how his group played MTG.

Exactly, it’s like the judge completely forgot about that wording, which is absolutely embarrassing given how much work it takes to become a judge.

Apparently you used to have to say go to the next phase and never use the word combat according to some people

​@@donb7519you can't skip automatic triggers. So the game could not proceed through to attackers until that trigger resoves.

@@drjjloveman correct im just passing on what people say was the verbage back then i think the judge was really dumb here

Saddly rulesharking is a normal thing in high level pro play because players are trying to eek out that tiny bit of advantage

Totally..he read the card that triggers off "beginning of combat" and approached in the manner to ruin Cesar's sequencing, anyone with good mtg etiquette would have ask to elaborate clearly when Cesar said "Combat"

@James Black the problem here is not that the opponent made a misplay, but that the "rule" the opponent is sharking on is based on verbal expression which is hard in a multicultural and languagebarrier based situation

@James Black - Calling out violations is justified, but being the pro tour isn't an excuse for bad sportsmanship. However, this wasn't even a real rule violation. His intent was obvious as stated and everything he was doing was perfectly legal, he didn't play "imperfectly". This was Cesar's opponent pretending not to understand the obvious steps he was taking despite it being entirely clear. Which is why they changed the fine print of the tournament rules - because in this case, the rules were wrong, not Cesar.

@James Black The rules were very much wrong though. As the "rule" in question here, and the ruling that followed it in the tournament, was based on the "common" understanding of combat meaning declare attackers. Which makes no sense, that's not the order of steps nor does it make sense to shortcut that from a linguistic POV either. If Cesar had said "attackers" that shortcut would make sense, but he said "combat" and unless spesified that he wanted to enter attackers, he should not be in attackers. That rule is plain and stupid dumb. Even for a native speaker that would not be obvious in any way, shape or form. The reason they changed the rule after this, was that nearly everyone at the time screamed at wizards to change this horseshit rule so it made sense, because this was absolute bullshit. Could he have done things in a different order like you suggested, yes. Should he have had to do that, given that he just wanted to enter a step in which he could do that anyway? No.

I thought he did win the match. Or do you mean he won that game, but ended up losing the series?

@@grishy8203 he won that game but lost the match

@@thiago7963 Phew, always satisfying watching a poor sportsman get his comeuppance

That doesn’t make any sense the affects clearly states on opponents side of field and graveyard

@@sokritlun1624 yeah but im assuming the op meant that the kid counted the dragons in HIS board and GY along with the op's

I mean you still go to the phase, just to an arbitrary step in the phase rather than the beginning of the phase.

It's kinda stupid if you ask me that they LITERALLY had to make it so that going to combat means the start of that step Feel bad for the guy who had judge called on him for this

One of the big reasons I quit playing FNM. Too many musty neckbeards so willing to call judge for every single little detail. "well acktchuwally you shkipped you're upkeep phase becuz yuo didint say upkeep so yuo cant trigger that effect, JUUUUUDGE" even though I didn't draw a card yet, but go off king.

@@dementious There is nothing wrong for wanting to play the game by the rule and it's always bad to figure out things immediately if something is unclear.

@@jakx2ob The problem is, there's a difference between playing the games by the rules, and attempting to munchkin a judge ruling. MTG is a super complicated game that people will shortcut in order to make playable. Attempting to use these shortcuts as a way to gain an advantage is a dick move, as you're adding unneeded complication, especially if you're playing with people who may or may no speak english as a first language.

There are so many players who try to win this way. They don’t deserve to play this game.

FYI, the 'shortcut' is not written anywhere, and was not a rule.

That isn't what happened. Weldfast Engineer can only give +2/+0 to an artifact creature. Heart of Kiran is not an artifact creature until it is crewed. Since Weldfast's target must be declared at the beginning of combat, there was not a valid target. You have to have a valid target when the ability is placed on the stack, so he cannot crew in response. He needs to crew in main phase.

@@jonathonharper3847 sorry, you're wrong on that one. as stated in the rulings of Heart of Kiran: '' Once a player announces that they are activating a crew ability, no player may take other actions until the ability has been paid for. Notably, players can’t try to stop the ability by changing a creature’s power or by removing or tapping a creature.'' meaning, Weldfast Engineer's effect (which effect change a creature's power) can only trigger once he pays to activate the Crew ability of Heart of Kiran (which he did when he tapped Weldfast Engineer) so at the moment Weldfast Engineer should have trigger, Heart of Kiran WAS a valid Target (Weldfast Engineer doesnt require to be tapped to trigger its ability and is mandatory)

@@jonathonharper3847 Wrong. There are two valid targets. Even with no targets, the trigger goes on the stack, both players get priority, then it the ability fizzles with no valid targets, but there were two valid targets so it is moot.

Its even worse when the actual rules of mtg literally say (even back then) that you CANNOT skip phases and steps.

@@fallendeus5641 Worth noting that tournament magic had slightly different rules to normal magic.

@@GoldenSunAlex Now that should be one of the first things they change, what a needless bunch of insider garbage you need to understand to play by the rules

I laughed when the judge said with a straight face to him "you forgot" at 16:45

@@fallendeus5641 From MTR 4.2 "A tournament shortcut is an action taken by players to skip parts of the technical play sequence without explicitly announcing them. Tournament shortcuts are essential for the smooth play of a game, as they allow players to play in a clear fashion without getting bogged down in the minutiae of the rules....Most tournament shortcuts involve skipping one or more priority passes to the mutual understanding of all players;...Certain conventional tournament shortcuts used in Magic are detailed below. They define a default communication; if a player wishes to deviate from these, they should be explicit about doing so. Note that some of these are exceptions to the policy above in that they do cause non-explicit priority passes." this defines several shortcuts that are used by default. Back then it included that passing priority with empty stack in precombat main was shortcut to declare attackers so saying anything like "attacks", "combat" or even "to beginning of combat" would all move to declare attackers. This was originally made to protect NAP from angle shooting like AP says "to combat" NAP taps their team with Cryptic command and then AP plays haste creature as they are still in main phase. Next time AP says to "attacks" instead and NAP chooses to wait for their cryptic command, but now it is too late as they are in declare attackers already. Unfortunately this had downside that AP had really hard time to actually act in their beginning of combat if they wished to do so. Currently shortcut for passing to combat reads "If the active player passes priority with an empty stack during their first main phase, the non-active player is assumed to be acting in beginning of combat unless they are affecting whether a beginning of combat ability triggers. Then, after those actions resolve or no actions took place, the active player receives priority at the beginning of combat. Beginning of combat triggered abilities (even ones that target) may be announced at this time."

Same....to the entire comment.

Ok but why rush combat in the first place? The ability still triggers if Weldfast Engineer is tapped, and more-so the ability cannot be applied to an un-crewed vehicle.

@@johnr.timmers2297 in this particular case, the only difference is the "confusion", however, some game actions are habitually timed. Compare it to fetching during your opponent's end step even on a turn where it won't reveal any strategy by doing it earlier and you both already know that.

@@johnr.timmers2297 Toolcraft Exemplar was in the format at the same time and probably in the deck (he was playing Mardu vehicles iirc, but maybe RB vehicles), that only got big enough in the beginning of combat step to crew Heart of Kiran, which then influenced this unnecessary pattern of play,

Exactly, what a shitty win...

Exactly, I get it's pretty high stakes but that was a shitty way to win. Caesar was robbed

@@tonpalacios2964 he ended up winning the next too rounds tho

@@harleywalls6356 he was still robed from that first round, even if he ultimately won. also its "two" (as in the number) not, "too" as its used as an alternative to "also"

@@brunomendes4607 You knew what he meant yet you choose to correct it in a petty way. That would be like me telling you to use minimum punctuation and capitalization. People can mix up words unintentionally/not care about even minimum grammar(even though they know how) don't be passive aggressive/petty.

Agreed. I don't think Yugioh has any cross-type cards that can be played in different zones AND be used as both types of cards (pendulum monsters are *only* monsters in the monster zone [and in your deck/extra deck, graveyard, banish pile, and hand], and *only* spell cards while in the spell/trap zone), and card zones are very cut, defined, and specific so that the exact zone your card is in matters a LOT. And I know you can't skip parts of your turn, outside of electing to not enter the battle phase at all (which also skips your main phase 2 by rule of there not being a battle phase).

​@@Kylora2112What about trap monsters?

wow, that's pretty terrible. And what's the point of naming a creature type if you think you can just magically name changeling?!

As if Caverns of Souls wasn't good enough already? "I'ma just put this untapped 5C land that makes any creature I play uncounterable!" in my deck.

The correct thing was to call a judge upon the opponent first naming Chageling, whereupon they would be forced to name the creature type on the spot

@@Bsweet117 You have no obligation to correct your opponent when they make a mistake. If you name a type that isn't legal, you should just not get the benefit of it. Imagine if he named "Forest" as his creature type, then later on the judge was like, ""Oh, forest isn't a valid creature type. Go ahead and choose again. Oh what's that, you're naming the creature type you're trying to cast right now? That's fine."

@@damionwhitehead1165 Technically that is up to your opponent, unless it's clear that the player misplaying, intentionally did so to try and gain an advantage. You can't just turn a card off cause the player didn't know a specific ruling on it.

Obviously that asian guy knew this and just tried to play unfair.

@@NormanFoxLee yeah, rule lawyer to skimp out the phase. Im glad they slimmed down the phases and have a before phase for instance cards etc. Ie placing wild growth on declared attacking creature after declared blocking creature. Or what my buddy did was let our buddy drop his creature added socr and instances to said attacking creature. All for my 1st bud to drop a instance target player sacrifice a creature they control. All that land wasted. Lolz

Never in my life have I ever seen "go to combat" mean that I'm skipping A PART OF MY COMBAT PHASE So from now on when I say "end turn" I'm shortcutting to skip my discard phase and everyone can suck it

Exactly this. Comes up often with tappers in limited. If someone made that kinda judgecall back then on me i might have just flipped the table.

My friends and I will declare going to combat phase and allow others or ourselves the right to interrupt with a ; "at the start of your/my combat phase x triggers" or a "before you/I declare attacks activate y ability". This was kind of a ridiculous situation to end up in and one that certainly doesn't feel good. One of the things I always try to prioritize when introducing new players or playing with people who aren't as clear on the rules is the actual structure and steps of a 'turn'. Many people who have played for a while and are comfortable with the rules are totally okay with short-handing terms to try and keep the game moving, but it's really important that players know that they do have points within the rules to interrupt actions

i have to agree meaning was clear. i cant fault the oppo for trying to shark out its pretty common if not endemic behavior at the pro level. i used to go to gps all the time before the vid and you would see it constantly.

are specific shortcuts even mentioned in the rules?

@@SylveonSimp right now in the rules it's less about specific Keywords (for example "combat") beeing said than both players beeing on the same page of what step their currently in. So situations like these would be seen as a communication error and thus be ruled more freely.

@@EMPCraft That's what I hoped for. Thank you!

@@moebiuseight7977 - I can - it's bad sportsmanship. Win the game by your merit as an actual player. Call out actual rules violations when they happen, but pretending not to understand obvious intent is just dumb. If you're playing Judge's Tower, sure, but even in a competitive level like the pro tour, you're just being an ass.

At the time, you had to specifically say “go to beginning of combat step” or something like this. Then he would get his trigger. Just “combat” meant to go to the attackers, and he missed his trigger.

@@NikachuMTG That still went to declare attackers back then. He needed to announce his trigger to not miss it. If there was no triggers and one just wanted to do something in one's beginning of combat, one needed to announce that "I activate/cast this in beginning of combat." Any sort of "combat", "attacks", "pass priority" or even "beginning of combat" were all shortcuts to declare attackers. Ironically this rule was originally in place to protect non-native speakers from angleshooting so you couldn't trick your opponent to act in your main or miss opportunity to interact at all depending on your exact wording.

crazy

Magic judges are some of the lowest IQ humans I've ever interacted with.

Explain more?

@@everythingpony why? did you miss something?

Yeah, I’m not one to hound ppl for one bad mistake, but his behavior and expressions just makes me so angry. Ppl like that makes me no want to play at events.

I don't think he was in the wrong for calling a judge but like, he must've known that ruling was bullshit. The intent was so clear once it was explained

He deserved to lose that end every subsequent match. Rules Lawyers that take advantage of limited English speaking players that way are terrible human beings. I heard rumor that his girlfriend left him and his Mother no longer loves him as a result of his behavior. Just look at recent pictures, his right hand is missing, proving his girlfriend left him.

I agree 100%. Watching that dude just absolutely salivating over the chance to angleshoot his opponent when he's fully tapped out and his opponent's intentions where so incredibly clear utterly disgusted me. Just wow.

Thien is notorious for doing that even before that incident and never stopped no. he is a player who just nobody really liked being around which made practicing harder for him, and so he basically relied on shit like that to be relevant, it takes a lot to be known as an asshole in a pro circuit as large as MTG's, but he makes basically everybodies top 3 people not worth talking to. he has fallen out of relevance in the online landscape though, where rules lawyering to get wins isnt as easy.

How was that ever a rule? I swear, MTG tournament rules are a mess...

That’s cruel that people who call themselves players would do such a thing. It’s very much like how back in the day in Yugioh, there was a card combo that forced your opponent to shake your hand, and many players left their hands unwashed to force their opponent to refuse and forfeit the game. The ruling was eventually changed to “your opponent must only acknowledge the handshake”, which is very fair.

@Exo Megalo Ergaleio Exei Apo Kato Kai Alla Dio That's funny. Complaining about a card game being a mess but also playing YuGiOh. Bit of cognitive dissonance there.

@Exo Megalo Ergaleio Exei Apo Kato Kai Alla Dio imagine thinking yugioh where every card has an essay attached to it that can easily be misinterpreted is not a shit show of a mess. LMFAO!!!

@Exo Megalo Ergaleio Exei Apo Kato Kai Alla Dio. It was the old “Yu-Jo Friendship/Unity” card combo that forced a handshake between players. It wasn’t like the biggest strategy, but I distinctly remember it being an issue back in 2006, because I saw 2 guys get in a fistfight over it, and one of the guys said “You know damn well I’m not shaking your disgusting hand!”

But the issue is, the phase is named "COMBAT". That ruling has to be the most idiotic one ive ever seen.

Idiotic rule and made worse by the other card Cesar had in play which had a trigger and literally said "at the beginning of COMBAT". Unbelievable.

I remember when this happened. At that point I was playing FNM very regularly and tried to be competitive. After this event, I began being very specific about what step I was in, and clearly stating if I wished to skip to a particular step or phase. "I've completed my priority of upkeep, proceed to draw?" Or, "Pass priority in beginning of combat, proceed to declare attacks?" The shortcutting rules are very tickytack at that level. (Or were.)

​@@derickalsept Unfortunately back then even "Pass priority in main phase, move to beginning of combat?" was still shortcut to declare attackers. You had to say something like "I do X in beginning of combat" where X is what you intend to do. For example here Cesar should had just announced their trigger, which would had been proposal to move to beginning of combat as that is where it triggers.

Maybe there is a card that has a negative effect at the beginning of combat, a shortcut would skip the negative, that’s kinda like cheating though

@@schumerus6786 thats not kind of cheating, that is cheating. you cant willfully ignore or "forget" triggers positive or negative

Back then if you missed your triggers the effect doesn't happen. If you call a judge both players get a warning for not maintaining game state. This gives your opponent an incentive to be sure a negative effect for them is still reported and any player trying to skip a negative effect for themselves is caught.

That isn't what happened. Weldfast Engineer can only give +2/+0 to an artifact creature. Heart of Kiran is not an artifact creature until it is crewed. Since Weldfast's target must be declared at the beginning of combat, there was not a valid target. You have to have a valid target when the ability is placed on the stack, so he cannot crew in response. He needs to crew in main phase.

@@jonathonharper3847 I was replying to schumerus not the main commenter

tell him to cut it out!

@@NikachuMTG will do

Yep IMO "going to combat" means main phase over going in the combat steps

@@ShadowWalker-ng1it - yeah, if it means anything else you can just shortcut your opponent's responses, lol. "I play X and go to combat. Oh, you can't counterspell it, we're already in the declare attackers step."

@@KingBobXVI No that would not be the case. The issue here is that for whatever reason back in the day it appearantly was a "known" shortcut. So when Cesar wanted to go to combat, intending to enter his beginning of combat step and Thien agreed, priority passed. He didn't skip over his opponents ability to interact or be in a step per se, opponent was given opportunity to respond. The issue here is that one of the players was aware of some weird and obscure interpretation of a shortcut that makes no sense and intentionally rulessharked that knowing fullwell it was not what his opponent wanted to do.

So what? The card's ability was just completely unusable? Yeah this seems like how the game was intended to be played.

@@simongreve Effectively the statement made was that you as the active player couldn't respond to abilities that triggered in the beginning of combat step, unless you opponent wanted to move to that step. It was a really bad statement that was quickly rescinded and the rules changed.

> there was actually NO POSSIBLE PHRASING the active player could use to move to their own beginning of combat step. Well, any such jump skips over the part where the opponent has priority. The opponent of course has to approve such a skip, and so going to beginning of combat always has to be a dialogue. So I agree that there's NO POSSIBLE PHRASING the active player could use to _unilaterally_ go to the beginning of combat step. However, a dialogue could. Here's the simplest dialog I can imagine: > Active player: pass? [it is my main phase and I pass; do you pass too?] > Non-active player: pass! [I pass too; it is now beginning of combat] If I remember the shortcut rules correctly: Player X proposes a sequence of moves. Player Y either accepts, or makes a different move before the sequence ends. [This gets more bureaucratic with more players, but not significantly more complicated; you just have more consent/deviate decision, one per opponent] This means that passing gives your opponent the same decision tree as proposing a shortcut that goes to the beginning of combat. So if there is no possible phrasing of a dialogue that goes to beginning of combat, this means either that you cannot pass, or that shortcuts equivalent to a single move are invalid, or something weird.

@@simongreve > So what? The card's ability was just completely unusable? Yeah this seems like how the game was intended to be played. The Vehicle? I guess you could crew it during your main phase. The guy that triggers during beginning of combat? I have no clue. I guess the rules should state that you cannot skip past a decision that doesn't have a default choice. "May" abilities have the default choice of doing nothing. Anything with a target has no default target, except if it has at most one target: either the only valid target, or it does nothing because it has no targets. I can't make out the cards; does the Artificer dude have a target if the Vehicle isn't crewed when beginning of combat triggers trigger? maybe cards like that should come with a trigger warning?

@@jonaskoelker The statement effectively said that even stating "I am passing priority to you at the end of my main phase 1" could be construed as a shortcut to go to declare attackers. As for the scenario on the table, I believe there was another creature that could attack, as well as it having the ability to target itself.

When playing with friends we're very casual and we'll give our opponents a chance to take something back if they forgot. Especially when playing 4 player commander, which is what we're usually doing, there's so much going on. Like if someone is about to attack with 100 thopters and forgot someone had Revenge of Ravens out we'd just be like "hey you realize Revenge of Ravens is out right? You'd lose" and give them a chance to back out haha but when it's 1v1 constructed and you each only have a handful of cards on the board I can see why you'd be more strict

I feel like that was the cheapest thing I've ever seen.

I call that "The Monkey's paw flipping the bird"

There’s a similar thing in yugioh and it’s funny because people call something by the common name while there’s the full name

@@Zer0_._ Welcome to MTG tournaments. What rule loophole can I use to get an advantage? Let me look at the opacity of their sleeves and see if I can complain about that etc.

@@vincam2628 it happen to me, they were play golden and I described the card after activating prohibition, he nodded said he knew the card I was talking about and then tried using the card saying I didn't name it

Yeah, the rules are way more relaxed towards this stuff at regular rel events like FNM. But it’s still pretty strict at a competitive level. Pretty crappy way to learn this rule.

"if i ever plan to play in another tournament i best learn the shorthands so this doesnt happen again" Yeah, judge had a point. Sucks it happened that way, but you basically went into a tourney not knowing all the rules.

I get that it’s a rule you should have known, but imo the fact that your opponent knew that you were inexperienced and took that as an opportunity to get a cheap win was exponentially worse. They should have honor rules at these things.

The opponent seems like they intentionally made the question in a way to confuse you, the fact that he did choose not to clarify what he meant by “damage?” and just repeat the question is an AH move if you ask me.

@@jasoncuriale8613 Mtg tournament? Honor? Pick one you can't have both lol. Seriously the lengths people will go to are insane

At the time judges couldn’t back up if no new information was gained. That rule was created much later. It was probably worth mentioning.

@@NikachuMTG I wasn't aware of that and am so glad they can back up to a stat that corrects such mistakes now. The judge didn't even try to understand here imo. Even a small child would understand that he was caught up in a technicality that shouldn't have ever taken place. Thanks for the additional info though. Enjoying your channel

@@NikachuMTG he didn't have to back anything up as the phase should have went to combat. The issue in question was what phase they were in so it's not backing anything up to rule in one phase or the other.

Instead of combat they back up to combat...lol

@@sirgarde2293 No, he knew exactly what he intended, but it doesn't matter. At the time, saying 'combat' meant 'I move to declare attackers'. The guy didn't know the rule and misplayed, but it was still a rule.

And boy do I expect to see her getting "named" for a lot of Pithing Needles.

That would be a glorious exercise in playing dumb. "Ok, needle enters the battlefield, triggers - I'll name Asmor... As... Asorenodarmi... Asmorandomoric... uhh... dice bean at dracularr...?" "Who? I don't know a card with that name." "A smorgasboard ice a die tin abla narda cat decor?" "Nope, don't understand, could be anything." "Gfy"

It's pretty easy to say if you actually put 5 minutes into it and break it down

@@Mandolorian1001 - it is, I can say it fine, but that's what I usually hear from others :P

the person who created the name of this card is an IDIOT trying to be smart.

oh you poor sweet cinnamon bun... casual players do this to; for 1 extra pack of product.

Just wait until you meet people who will do this shit just for casual games that are only played for fun.

Like the whole "roleplaying scene" hasn't always been attracting autistic sticklers for rules..

@@ScatterBrainedYouBetterFollow Those types of people get kicked out. You maliciously cheat, then none of us want you.

@@jfast8256I wish all adults/teens were good enough at conflict confrontation to get to that stage

That isn't what happened. Weldfast Engineer can only give +2/+0 to an artifact creature. Heart of Kiran is not an artifact creature until it is crewed. Since Weldfast's target must be declared at the beginning of combat, there was not a valid target. You have to have a valid target when the ability is placed on the stack, so he cannot crew in response. He needs to crew in main phase.

@@jonathonharper3847, he had Scrapheap Scrounger as a valid target. The problem is that he wasn't allowed to crew Heart of Kiran during beginning of combat because the judge said he'd passed that phase, even though he didn't.

@@jonathonharper3847 how many times do people need to correct you lmao

@@jonnystorms3310 Well, if you want an answer, you should count how many time he copy/pasted that shit. XD

You're welcome!

Not only that you can see he lost the game by one life, if he'd got his +2 trigger that's a win

@@Cheesusful He must put the trigger on the stack so he must be in beginning combat step but he can't target the vehicule. He still have the priority and he can activate the vehicule.

@@rogersmith5021 that is a completely correct statement. However you seem to be missing the fact that he had other artifact creatures he could have put the +2 effect on without needing the vehicle.

@@Cheesusful that's what i said, he must put the trigger on the stack but he can't target the vehicule, after puting the trigger on stack he have the priority and can activate the vehicule. He haven't choice to skip the beginning of combat step, he just can't, that's the rule. The judge cheated or he was incompetent in both case "head judge and ask him to fire this judge"

@@rogersmith5021 I'm confused why you're even talking about the vehicle at all...

The pithing needle one would still go through after the changes if worded the exact same way The rules change just added more ways to clarify if you dont know exact card names

I see no issue with the 1st one. He said the wrong card and didn’t clarify

But the second one wouldn’t? The player clearly put the Dryad Arbor down with the intent to disguise it as a basic forest.

@@tylerduncanson2661 i think that dryad arbor one should be legal.. as this diversify the game.. it is like an instant counter card, but for creature..

@@xaerusblade7854 Those exist, its called creatures with Flash. You should know what boardstate you are playing into.

what the fock is a black luster soldier. this is magic we are talking about kidd

@@kennyminer2245 That's why he proceeded that comment by saying "In Yugioh".

@@Caesar454 I'm rather surprised that he read PAST the critical information to get to that point. If it was on the tail-end of the comment and reacted to it pre-emptively, it'd still be a silly remark but slightly more understandable.

To be fair there are so many BLS monsters in Yugioh now the distinction is needed. You could mean BLS Soldier of Chaos, for example. But back in the day yeah if course you meant Envoy, lol. (For Magic players, just... Just picture someone back in the day naming “Jace” instead of “Jace The Mind Sculptor” or something. And nowadays there are even more Jaces so...)

@@GentlemenGhidorah yeah its an older example, but one i could think of quickly.

A 0 mana creature that make green mana would be a mox so it doesn't seem like a good idea.

Dryad Arbor is not "basically" a land. It *is* a land. It's a land-creature exactly the same way that lot of various effects turn lands into creatures. And it's NOT free, you have to play Dryad Arbor as your land drop for the turn; you can't play a Dryad Arbor as a creature even if you wanted to meaning that it's effectively a tap land as far as mana curve is concerned.

Thanks!

Ironically the shortcut existed specifically to avoid people trying to deliberately misinterpreting their opponent's intentions. It existed because before it someone could say "go to combat" and then if their opponent did anything in response they would claim to still be in their main phase. It was a significant problem when Cryptic Command was legal because the combination of it being a counter spell that also had the potential to tap creatures to prevent attacks meant that getting the opponent to accidentally cast it to tap down your team in your main phase rather than in beginning of combat would let you cast a haste creature and attack without them being able to either counter or tap it. The shortcut definitely outlived its usefulness and the potential for the sort of angle-shooting seen in this video shot up with the increased prevalence of "beginning of combat" triggers. The original problem is now avoided by having an explicit assumption that any action taken by the non-active player after the active player passes from their first main phase is happening in the beginning of combat step unless stated otherwise.

@@Willd2p2 or unless they affect whether beginning of combat ability triggers. AP: "Combat?" NAP: "Bolt Rabblemaster" NAP is assumed to act in main phase unless they specify otherwise in this case

there's no consolation prize for class. try to win as hard as you can or stay home.

I got mad just watching that one. If a card says "beginning of combat" then you cannot enforce a shortcut of "combat" meaning "declare attackers." Clearly Cesar is in the process of setting up his combat phase before declaring attackers. This video really should have showed his declare attackers phase so we can see it as a distinct second action. I never played tournaments, but the way we always played was saying combat was the end of the 1st main phase and it was announced so any responses to ending the main phase and any beginning of combat triggers could be activated before declaring attackers started. I'm glad they removed the shortcut from the game as it's in direct conflict with all "beginning of combat" wording on the cards. It essentially erased an entire phase of the game by saying a word clearly printed on your card. And that's before we talk about players that don't speak English as their primary language to really muddle this.

@@mrosskne Spoken like true garbage

But Thien is right, rules are rules. This is so embarrassing because the idea of just skipping a phase of your turn is absurd, especially when there is an ability trigger during the phase. Not to mention being able to accidentally do so. This is completely Wizards fault, Thien is completely correct by addressing that rule.

I would not have shaken his hand.. what a complete dick head honestly ... I would have stared him in the eyes and said "really?? this is how you want to cheat?"

Bob huang is a dbag

people specifically go to games hoping to rule shark their opponent, I knew a player in my playtest group would actually practice literal semantics to try to get people warnings and game losses, because, its part of the game, like this video showed, you can call someone on bullshit like "entering combat"? well, fuck wizards, make them fix their shitty rulebook, im here to win, was basically his mindset. I hated it, I play fair because im good at the game and want to win with skill

@@attoboi9763 - It's so obnoxious, I played a game against someone doing that and lost because I missed a combat phase where I could have gotten 2 free damage in after a pointlessly long judge call that clarified nothing. It was a valid thing to call out (whiffed a play under my own magus of the moon, which I caught as I did it and before the judge was called - it was round 1 and really early, lol), but in the end I had 6 damage in hand and he was at 8, so that 2 would have won me the round.

That is a dogshit comparison. Wether I misremember the name of an opening or a midgame being deployed by my opponent in chess, is absolutely and utterly irrelevant as long as I play against it properly. The change where being able to describe the effect well enough that it can only refer to one spesific card is a good rules change.

@@MinstrelSauce - you don't have to know the names of any strategies in chess, only the names of the 6 pieces and how they can interact with the board. The skill is in how you use the pieces, not in how good your memory of various terms is.

​@@MinstrelSauce So in your parallell universe one cannot possibly find something stupid and in need of change, if one does not personally benefit?

Like I said in the video, both parties need to agree on the card being talking about. Usually the card will be unique, especially naming cards with activated abilities.

Current rules say "A card is considered named in game when a player has provided a description (which may include the name or partial name) that could only apply to one card. Any player or judge realizing a description is still ambiguous must seek further clarification."

More than likely, they didn’t know the rules themselves.

I had a person who would tap mana, put a creature onto the board, and then if someone went to counter it, he'd say that because it had already resolved, (because he had put the card onto the battlefield at the exact same moment he had said what the card was) it was too late to counter it.

@@bennettpalmer1741 thats a person you never play with again till they learn the rules

"I think his intentions were whatever helps me win" Pro tour magic is scummy as hell. How else do you think the same players always come out on top when formats are already solved and the player pool is inundated with xerox copies of the same decks? They ruleshark, intimidate, use their 'pro player' clout to get judges to rule against their opponents, and more than likely just straight-up cheat if they're not on camera.

@@anachronity9002 They cheat even when they're on camera rofl, it's a joke.

I'll give him this when I use a card that makes a 1/1 into a mana rock I usually toss him with my lands or with my other rocks Also when I change a land into a creature with nissa or something I usually leave it back there because my dumbass will forgot it's mana

The opponent has six cards out. If you cannot take the time to look at all 6 cards before making a decision, you deserve to lose.

@@jonathangoodman9089 agreed. if there is no said rule about grouping then placing your land within the lands zone actually makes the most sense.

@@jonathangoodman9089 It certainly looks like a Forest and I doubt he named the card when he played it. The intent to pass it off as a forest is clear.

@@Zerato does it look completely identical to a land? Most people are discerning enough to pick out a distinctly creature card from among lands. Playing a dryad arbor casually as a forest while your entire body language screams “please don’t realize this is a creature” is an extremely different scenario

On that day, if you missed a trigger that was beneficial to you, too bad. They considered that using the shortcut, he just gave up the trigger, which makes it even more ridiculous

Actually that isn't how it works. at that level of play you are allowed to miss your own (positive) triggers, missing your negative triggers is a warning for Game play Error Once a triggered ability has been considered missed (which is massively arguable here and I think the ruling was wrong but skipping over that) The judge can rule one of three things: Continue play, Opponent chooses whether to put the trigger on the stack now, escalate to suspected cheating for skipping triggers (this one is rare)

There have even been points where it was up to both players to keep track of triggers and ensure a proper game state. So his opponent failing to note the triggers could have been a violation in itself, and an attempt to cheat.

That isn't what happened. Weldfast Engineer can only give +2/+0 to an artifact creature. Heart of Kiran is not an artifact creature until it is crewed. Since Weldfast's target must be declared at the beginning of combat, there was not a valid target. You have to have a valid target when the ability is placed on the stack, so he cannot crew in response. He needs to crew in main phase.

​@@jonathonharper3847 sorry, but you're wrong on that one. as stated in the rulings of Heart of Kiran: '' Once a player announces that they are activating a crew ability, no player may take other actions until the ability has been paid for. Notably, players can’t try to stop the ability by changing a creature’s power or by removing or tapping a creature.'' meaning, Weldfast Engineer's effect (which effect change a creature's power) can only trigger once he pays to activate the Crew ability of Heart of Kiran (which he did when he tapped Weldfast Engineer) so at the moment Weldfast Engineer should have trigger, Heart of Kiran WAS a valid Target (Weldfast Engineer doesnt require to be tapped to trigger its ability and is mandatory)

Then you didnt play correctly according to the rules. Which is fine for casual locals.

@@ich3730 Could be, though they have amended the rules many times in the 20 years since I stopped

No, it was an official tournament rule regarding shortcutting, not just 'a convention'.

It was an official rule, however a rather stupid one. Old magic was strange, and the idea of missing a non-optional “beginning of combat” trigger that you clearly would want to hit wasn’t considered unusual, since you could essentially skip through some phases of a turn if the trigger was “forgotten.”

@@lightshadow3683 was it written down and given to him in writing?

Quick question: What section/line of the Comp Rules described the shortcut to declare attackers? Especially when it comes to international tournaments where everything should be specifically cited in the comp rules?

i used to be an L1 too and i was told it was literally impossible to move from your main phase to beginning of combat unless there was a trigger. good thing that BS was changed since i last cared about magic lol

Well then those judges you argued with suck and should have never been judges to begin with if they don't know that you cannot skip phases and steps. Rule 500.1, literally the BASIC RULES OF MTG, says that every step and phase happens and apparantly these judges don't know the fucking rules to the game lmfao. Good to know that a vast majority of judges dont evem know the game they are judging and are just clowns.

You wrote the line in the Yugioh tv show detailing the effect of Pot of Greed, didn't you!

Unfortunately you can get a rules violation for that. It's called slow play. It's annoying

I do the same, with less words. Maybe less clarity tho? Pretty normal at my LGS's tho. "s for verbal, * for physical communication. "Draw step, activate (cardname)", *do the thing, draw the card* "End of Main (cardname) triggers" *point/tap my card* "Move to combat, declare attacks" *turn/push/pull cards* "Before blocks (cardname)" "End of Turn target (cardname) in my graveyard with (cardname)" *set cast spell middle of table, tap lands" That's my syntax for better or worse, in case you wanted to see another way to roll. I'm super interested in form. When I watch Legacy players on Thursday at my LGS (cuz I'll be playing Modern, two tourneys one store) I can't help but admire their form. I'd like to be as clear and consistent as I can be. And they don't have MtG form class at college right? And if one ever wanted to play Magic in a nation where they don't speak the language I think the physical communication would be huge.

Absolutely. If I find myself playing anywhere where this is needed or expected, I'd rather not play at all. I've jokingly stated in such places something like 'I will pick up my cards and at end of turn leave this place, because there is no way I am enjoying this game."

@@Pastree117 I've only been in ONE lgs in my life where this level of playstyle was common and it closed 15 years ago. All other LGS have been full of people shouting that they're right or mumbling inaudibly while vaguely pointing at the table in general expecting everyone to understand exactly what they mean. As you may understand, I've pretty much given up on playing in LGSs.

That is the most ridiculous part of this whole video!

At that point the judge is not trying to "change" Cesar's version, he's just trying to understand better the situation. That's why he goes to double check with another judge right after he says it...

@@rramirezvip no, because as I said, he deliberately misquoted him

@@ikejohnson5494 he didn't tho

@@rramirezvip it’s literally in the video. The player says one thing. Then the judge said “so you said “ and then said something that objectively, the player did not say. That is a deliberate misquote

the rules changed. The ruling was correct tho

Its called planning ahead and being smarter than your opponent. Nothing wrong with being prepared.

Not exactly, he was between a rock and hard place as soon as he said Combat. BC the vehicle had to be a creature BEFORE he said Combat in order to be a valid target. So it was either he missed the trigger (which is possibly a game loss at that level idk, and it was fairly obvious he was aware the ability happening), or failed to Crew the vehicle before saying Combat. Which is totally understandable bc Vehicles were real different at the time, and I still make mistakes w Crew timing. I thought that was the issue, idk how it got turned around into "he shortcutted"

​@@Pastree117 You can crew at the beginning of combat when the +2/+0 ability of the Weldfast Engineer is on the stack, the vehicule will be a creature by the time the ability resolves and benefit from it and then you can proceed to the "Declaring attacker(s)" step. The misunderstanding was when he said "Combat" they all implied he skipped the "Beginning of combat" step and got boned.

Laraje thanks, I'm having trouble remembering why I was so sure it couldn't work, but I think you are right. Just target on resolution of the trigger, not as it triggers. 🤔

@@Pastree117 he had a different legal target so no trigger was missed but it didnt go onto the vehicle if we rules check properly

@@L3raje nope The vehicle has to be a target BEFORE the trigger enters the stack, targets are delared upon trigger not resolution

Ehhhh the pithing needle one is angle shooting. They should have received warnings for not clearly maintaining the game. His intent was clear, to name a card in his deck and the op should have clarified.

@@davidhickey8613 but at the same time when the goal is to win you take every misplay by your opponent you can get, im kinda in between tho. think carefully of what you say, it may not come out like you mean.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game." LITERALLY. Stick to the rules, whatever they are. If a player loses because they don't know, misinterpret or don't adhere strictly to the rules then it's their fault. If the rules are ridiculous then their authors' are idiots and the rules should be changed but nevertheless when you enter a tournament with a certain set of rules, this is what you play by. And if it's competitive then calling out your opponents' mistakes is not only fair game, it's almost mandatory.

@@nps1024 couldn't have said it better

@@nps1024 that's why I quit magic. This game is full of picky ***holes that can and will abuse of every little shady things or formula to win. And most of the time the people who are doing this and annoys everyone they play with ends up by losing. Most of the time, the intention is very clear and understandable, but they will nitpick about how you said it or how you moved this or this card and call judge. That's beyond BS.