Creator of HTMX Talks HTMX 

I would love to see Prime host more of these talks from third parties. like yeah conference talks are always something i look forward to, but having presentations like this outside of waiting for those events are super useful and so beneficial to the developer community

So this man is the CEO of HTMX

I love that a discussion about 10KB vs 14KB occurred. Meanwhile I’m sitting here looking at “my” enterprise app with megabytes upon megabytes.

Prime really brings programming contents to a whole new level

When I started working in software, React always was the silver bullet for every frontend project. I always liked to follow the latest tech trends and I also remember looking down on the engineers who interviewed me for a job which wanted to keep the frontend light without the latest and greatest tech. I have worked with React for years and when I started working in a startup as the only dev, there was no reason not to pick React again. I watch a lot of dev stuff on RU-vid and Prime is one of my favourite channels, when he started talking about HTMX I was first sceptical, but after copying so much business logic from the backend into my frontend it sort of made the case for HTMX and gave it a try. Within a day it clicked and rebuild everything using HTMX. Since I now only have to change one code base, my productivity increased by at least 100%, also you don't have to think about how you design your API anymore. Prime and Carson, thanks for bringing me more joy to my work ❤

Prime should start a netflix for programmers

I see htmx I click. This guy comes from the 90s. Best era for programmers.

I built `html-form` which is 2.2 kB minified/gzipped. It doesn't do all that HTMX does though, only a fraction. It also relies on forms for interactivity so not everything is interactive like HTMX. I've successfully used it to create offline-first applications that are SPAs (to make it an SPA a little bit of code is needed to add to it). It's really amazing how much this pattern simplifies web development.

What an amazing talk and QnA. Such a humble and inspiring person. Thanks for this, Prime.

The good thing about HTMX is that you don't have to make everything HTMX. You can just pop it in, do the thing you need it to do and basically just forget it exists. You don't need everything to be made with it just to make it worth using. Maybe you don't have heavy page loads so just redirecting with full page loads is fine, but you have this one thing you want to reload, update or whatever without reloading and it has little logic built into what it actually does; perfect for HTMX. People need to be less afraid of just doing basic stuff. Most of us aren't solving difficult problems. We just made things difficult.

For whatever reason, when I first started learning web development, Laravel + Blade templating was the framework that really started to make sense. I just couldn't grok React at all. A few years later, Livewire allowed me to make more reactive interfaces. So all this HTMX stuff just totally makes sense to me.

thanks for having him on, prime. i haven't watched a conference talk in a while, and I hope you host more of these in the future.

This was a great watch. I want to add one point to question about caching responses on SPAs vs hypermedia application. Hypermedia already has caching, and it's damn good: the Cache-Control header. Consider the data view example Carson provided. If an element is expensive to generate, you can use "max-age", "must-revalidate", and potentially "public" to only re-compute the element when needed instead of on each request, essentially implementing what Vercel sells as "incremental static regeneration" at the component level in only a few lines of web standard code. Paired with HTMX lazy loading, both your client and your server will be happy.

This is perfect! I've been looking into HTMX for a bit now. This came at a great time!

This is peak programming content

Wow, that was great! Thx for making this interview happen prime! And also clap 👏 for Carson, you are amazing and the presentation as well as the Q&A were solid!

debounce input being built into the trigger on active search is absolutely nuts. its the pure "you dont need to write JavaScript". Looks really nice!

Generalized hypermedia is a great and beautiful idea! Htmx should be part of all browsers.

Your best vid yet. Amazing presentation by Carson and great interviewing and moderation by you. Very excited for the future of Htmx.

HTMX is one of the few things that felt natural to me from the beginning when I knew nothing about it and just wanted to try it out.

Really great talk, I've been playing around with HTMX for a while now on a personal project (a ticketing system for tracking work using go, echo, templ and sqlite). It is actually a real joy to use once you get into it. I have a rich, complex, app with basically zero js apart from the HTMX include.

From a guy who used jQuery for a long time in the past, i like what HTMX offer. Simple DOM Manipulations, simple reactivity, backend-driven for business logic and state. And if you need more, you can always add JS back where it's needed. I'm still skeptical about the evolution/maintenance of the code in bigger apps. For those who used jQuery, we all know how it's a nightmare to debug.. Knowing which trigger is doing what, especially if the files are everywhere with broad selectors... It's an event base reactivity model with triggers left and right. It's the whole Choreography vs Orchestration "debate". Do you want decentralize or centralize event handlers ? I'm not a huge fan of Choreography since you don't easily know what are the impacts. Maybe it's just a question of architecture and tooling.. I'm gonna try to play around with it and make an actual app and not just small demo that don't really show the draw-backs.

Carson looks like HTMX and i love it.

This really amazing talk, specially the QA part. Looking forward more and more of those format whenever possible ❤️❤️❤️

6:40 I think the rare tag also counts as a hypermedia control

Gotta Love this stuff . The Interview, the venue , the Tech

Good to see people doing big things from Montana!

I was actually tasked with supporting offline functionality of a relatively small React app, and it was not as easy as people seem to think it is. If you actually want to do optimistic mutations and persistent state even when offline, it takes a lot of extra work (and/or a bunch of dependencies). In cases where users mutate mostly their own information (the scenario i was in) its definitely doable. But supporting optimistic mutations with a bunch of shared data would be a nightmare of collision detection and resolution. That being said, its probably easier to do in React than something like HTMX that prioritizes server side rendering over client logic. But it doesn't come for free in React like some people seem to think.

Prime promised and prime delivered! Thank you for inviting him to the channel Prime!

My man's working on his changeup grip, love it!

Amazing! Thx Prime for this opportunity to hear the creator bring his idea! HTMX is here to stay for sure!

9:13 Holly shoot! Just this brilliant introduction to the main generalization concept is amaizing! I feel like I can stop watching and just go and use it! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Great presentation. Stuff like this should become part of the web standards.

Nice presentation. I like how easy it is to implement lazy loading. I'll give it a try!

This is so cool. I'm planning on learning JavaScript soon and HTMX seems like a logical step to learn after learning the foundations.

"Has anyone on this stream heard of HTMX?" HTMX mentioned!!!!!

Amazing talk and guest. Also good questions during Q&A section. Really enjoyed it Thank you

I have never understood that "Separation Of Concerns" thing in the web world. If my concern is getting a button to work I want everything I need to understand it to hand, shall we say locally. I don't want bits of that concern splattered all over a huge directory structure and impossible to find. By analogy when I'm building a wall I want all the tools and materials nearby so that I can get on with that wall rather than endlessly running around the place trying to find hammers, nails, timbers, whatever. It always seemed to me that when they said "Separation of Concerns" what they really meant was separation of implementation details depending on the technology rather than any regard for the actual concern. It's a misnomer. Now I can kind of understand it if we recognise styling a button may depend on some global style and be best done by a page designer with an eye for style. There is the mechanical concern, HTML and JS, and there is the decoration concern, CSS. I'm so glad to hear someone also has a problem with this.

Blessed to have learned how to program from him

This is cool. Very smart of him to look at html and reduce it to some simple general concepts, requires quite some experience and talent.

❤loved i Came to get a grasp of it and watched the entire video

HTML6 when?

41:30 - imho the use of optimistic updates does not make the app less dependent on the server, it just gives the illusion something is happening while we wait for the server to come through (in a lot of cases). At least with htmx it seems that what the client sees is in fact server state, while with optimistic updates, depending on how they're implemented, it might not be the case. (Carson mentions this later with the subway example)

Great talk and Q&A.... love it!

I’m starting to delve into creating a website with Django and wagtail. htmx fills nicely the functionality I needed for now. Thanks for the hypertext !

u are the man, thx 4 the presentation

46:42 Locality of Behavior sounds like it is pretty different from separation of concerns, but I do not think they're totally exclusive. They're overlapping slightly in that both of these acronyms are ideas about organizing code. For example, you could group the markup, the scripting, and the styling for a button into one file (demonstrating a locality of behavior), this composes all the code involved in a single button while still providing a separation of concerns by keeping the different syntaxes together but separate from the code/style/markup of other elements in a different file. The developer may pick and choose over the other based on how they've grouped other portions of the code as well, but a consistency in choosing one over the other, or both together is important.

Q&A is awesome!!! 🔥 I would love to have more 👌

I think it'd be very nice, if he showed us his prduction project written in HTMX. He would be able to show some unique tips and tricks, because he knows it in and out, better than anyone. And it would be a better advertisement for his framework.

Man, I've been waiting for this video

Reminds me when I wrote maybe 15 years ago (before backbone existed) a similair framework with jquery to allow automatically do ajax updates to dom by using special html attributes to tell where data from ajax call should go ❤

The fact that javascript became such a huge thing in controlling the dom. It's nice to see the events, controls and behaviours that are really just simple bindings moving to the html/dom side.

Awesome presentation. Thank you!

Thanks for this community service!

I just love that both of these dudes live in rural environments. I would love for Prime to focus on elaborating on that and exploring how many other people are in that culture.

Great talk and content, there has been a lot said of how good htmx for making frontend 'thinner' and all about this 'one source of truth' that resides on the backend. I miss one thing and perhaps there could be some talk about it too - since we are moving a lot of stuff to the backend - what are special considerations for the backend code to make htmx apps 'blazingly fast' and sustainable for a long term? I imagine there are far more API endpoints on the backend to support those 'micro-calls' to the backend and return tiny-winy html bits so this would make backend more complex right? Are there good practices on how to prepare/setup/structure backend for htmx?

I love that HTMX just works. After a few hours of experimenting I already have all the tools to build the frontend of my project.

I get to teach htmx to my class for school. This is very well timed.

I like HTMX. I like the idea of using backend tools and backend environmental stability to drive behavior on the page. But all of the "hypermedia limitations" and "why don't we expand beyond tags and tags?" and "do we have to replace the whole page" isn't really a thing in 2024. None of those are limitations of web development since AJAX, Google Maps, and Web 2.0. But you do have to use javascript, with all of the wibbly-wobbly language versions and browser idiosyncrasies and everything else that sets my teeth on edge about frontend development today. I like HTMX. I think it solves an old problem in a new and useful way. But you gotta cut the first several minutes of your pitch completely out.

to decrease the size of htmx they could do something like tailwind, parse all the files to look for the used attributes and produce an output that includes only what's been scraped + what the user manually declare to use with some configuration.

It's a useful thing, i hope it'll be default feature on next html release.

This honestly feels like the next logical step in html we should have taken, but like 20 years ago. If these ideas were implemented in the HTML spec back then, it would have changed the way we view reactivity.

This was awesome! Please more content.

Be cool to see more content like this. No set schedule but if anyone has a topic you think is interesting.

God damn. This is earth shattering. I need to branch out from js now or I'll be in a cardboard box in 5 years

this is what I've been waiting for: HTMX hype!

as someone said in the chat, I'm already sold

One thing I've been wondering about htmx: how do you avoid bugs from chained states? For example, you press a button, it replaces some content, you click there, replace something else, but it only works when you're in that second state. Maybe it's a difference between imperative vs declarative?

Unless I’m mistaken, we were doing this in 2009

May I ask, since what I understood from the presentation; to put it bluntly HTMX is controller infrastructure which controls the output of the html by injecting it at runtime. How this differs from Java based JSF system (Jakarta Servlet Faces) which is SSR infrastructure?

What a banger of a video Prime

awesome talk, REALLY VALUABLE!!!

You have pages that sends like MB before anything happends and here we have discussion about 10KB vs 14KB, love it.

THE MAN THE MYTH THE LEGEND

Is it generally a good idea to render HTML for HTMX in a separate "microservice" or integrate the backend for HTMX frontend right into my main (monolith) backend?

htmx can be paired with s and anchor targets to work without javascript, at least the "get that html bit and place it there" part. It becomes a hydration language.

I'm already doing Blazor, if I can further get rid of JS with HTMX I'm all for it!

I can't wait to see you guys at Big Sky #BSDC2024

It´s so good, it´s BANTASTIC!

This is an interesting concept. Using his streamer platform as a mini conference of sorts. Unspoken hero's people just depend on never knowing their names, but at least with this guy, hes not fifteen dependencies down, instead he's your only JS dependency.

Sometimes I forget how professional Prime can be

this gave me goosebumps

@27:33 - "Drag and drop is not part of the web" - maybe I'm misunderstanding this...the HTML Drag and Drop API is absolutely part of the web standards, and it was integrated within HTML5 in October 2014. Furthermore the "Drag and Drop API" was part of the specification for several years prior to this and was being implemented in browsers well before the formal standardization. Hence we have HTMLElement:drag, HTMLElement:dragend, HTMLElement:dragenter, etc - plus the DataTransfer, DataTransferItemList interfaces, etc

Carson mentioned some htmx-like, potentially in Typescript, that compiled down to less than 10k. But my search-foo is weak and I was not able to find it. Anyone have a link?

HTMX mentioned, let's go!

The partial fetch idea has been very appealing for some time now. Noone likes having to render, download and load entire huge pages with a gazillion queries.

Carson seems like an awesome dude.

Carson Gross. You should put some of his info/links in the description.

new channel idea: *The PrimeCast*

HE IS THE GRUG DEV ?!

Is it possible to have debouncing with active-search?

I have GRUB brain. Bailing out, Good luck your on your own

Thanks for hosting this prime!

This is why i advise moving into management if you care about your learning trajectory. Massive regression to 15 years ago here

LET'S GOOOO!!!!

I think your way of thinking about the web was just ahead of its time. It took time for people to start coming to the same conclusions as you - The browser is a better user experience when you use it to render HTML instead of a heavy computation tool.

This dude is so humble.

Why are htmx examples not using htmx? I don't see any request on the network tab when clicking on any of the controls. What am I missing?

50:00 We could also use BFF approach.

Very promising. Will subscribe.