In Germany it's often more polite if you say what you really think in a nice but clear way. This nice "acting" of Americans and British people seems dishonest to us and honesty is really important to be seen as a trustworthy and authentic person. In Germany we say for example "A friend who tells you in honesty that what you wear doesn't look good is a better friend than one who lets you embarass yourself."
I'm a german who lived in the UK for a 7 years. When I first arrived, I noticed that people very often got offended by simple slightly negative things I said and I didn't understand why. After a while I learned to express everything negative with euphemism. Then when I went back to Germany, I had the problem you describe very well here, no one took my concerns serious and I had to learn to express them very directly again.
Wow, I never really understood what English people or Americans meant when they said we are direct. But you just gave me the best impression of what you actually mean by that
I am german and did understand what you were saying (the video is pretty hilarious, by the way), but that might be due to the fact that I spent a year abroad learning english. Generally, I do find it safer to take what another german person is saying at face value unless I know them well enough to risk assuming something and being wrong. The same phenomenon occurs on the internet, in comments like these, where people from a lot of different cultures and backgrounds type opinions and often have problems understanding what another person meant. That's why I *love* emoticons... :)
Most of the Germans won't have a problem with irony (at least the younger ones) but if you're trying to use euphemism, it's a turn off since it's usually used by politicians and official to cover something bad hence there's always a bad connotation sticking with it. Plus, German characteristics vary from the region they're coming from: In the South they are more familial, in the west more open minded, in the east more short spoken and in the north more direct. Combinations may occur.
Ja! Einfach nur Ja! Das ist der alte Charme mit witzigen Videos den ich vermisst habe :D Das kombiniert den multikulturellen Aspekt mit verdammt gutem Humor! :D
Well. In Germany if you want something you say it. :P Hinting it or otherwise trying to describe it without saying it directly will usually be taken as testing the waters. (People think you would like to know their opinion on it and will go with that as you yourself dont actually care enough to speak out :P ) A Good example for that is your Statement. "I am starting to feel a bit Hungry" Most Germans will consider this an probe and basicly understand. "You Hungry ? We could grab something to eat if you want." :P
I have the same problem here. I will show this video to my German friend so he will understand what I have been experiencing since I was here, in Germany. Thank you for posting this video.
LOL, that's an excellent video! And yes, I think lowly of people who aren't able to express what they mean in ways that one can understand it without having to implicate several meta-layers of what it could mean and why the person doesn't say what he or she really means and so on....Such verbal behavior often comes across as false and dishonest, and I can totally understand everyone who shouts at you "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO IN THE FIRST PLACE!" after you repeated what you wanted to say several times, each time with a little smaller dosage of softener.
Directness is heavily culture related. In Asian cultures, for example, being too direct can be perceived as rude. One is expected to (and used to) be able to "read" more subtle level of 'languages' (e.g. facial/body languages, intonation, etc.)
EC912 Yes, asian cultures are also highly ritualistic and even metaphorical. However, I think these things are more unclear, and thus less truthful. I think a civilized human being without hostile or malicious intents has every right to say what they mean as clearly as they feel it themselves. In fact, for me it is even a matter of mutual respect not to burden someone with possible assumptions of what I meant or be burdened by having to make these assumptions myself. Although the non verbal parts of communication you mentioned are also important and naturally to be taken into consideration, someone only indicating slightly what they might mean, by using highly softened language that only points towards the general direction of what they actually mean, instead of just communicating it with words, would have to over-emphasize these parts in an almost comical way in order to still be able to communicate their message anyways, without being completely misunderstood.
Of course, within a single culture, there is no problem of understanding because it is what has become the custom. Misunderstandings and problems occurs mostly when two different, contrasting cultures interact. To people of the more indirect cultures, being downright to-the-point may be perceived as intruding, impolite, annoying or simply too serious. It's just like the analogy of what you feel towards indirect cultures.
EC912 I see where you come from, and I'm shocked myself, but I can't help but to feel superior over indirect people (no matter where they are from, it's not a racist or nationalist type of thing), because for communication, I don't need any wishy-washy imprecisions combined with a secret code of conduct that everybody must know, but nobody gets told about when "outside" the respective (sub-)culture, because it would be impolite etc ... I mean, it makes life just so much more complicated, while it would be totally unnecessary, or at least it should be in a civilized society. While writing this, I feel that "superior" isn't the right word either, it's more like I feel less restricted, like having higher level of freedom. But then, I was never good with authority either. And I also remember that there are social codes, like people asking what time it is when they want you to leave, instead of telling you openly that they've got something else to do ... I remember once where I totally didn't get a subliminal message like that and must have appeared rude, while I wasn't even conscious of any wrongdoing. I was always an advocate of direct (while polite) conversation, because it is just less complicated that way. The more indirect social codes, of which there are many different (where the same indication could mean different things among them), are just too much of unnecessary hassle.
Seegal Galguntijak Yes, but the difficulty is that cultures aren't deliberately invented: they evolve. One of the interesting things about the English language is that sentence intonation and stress are used to convey not, as in most European languages, sentence structure, but emotional content as well. (Of course, other languages, including German, do this as well, but not to the extent that English does.) This makes it easier in English to say one thing but mean something completely different, and this may be partly why English speakers use irony much more than other Europeans do. In German, you have to use irony either in a context where humour is expected (e.g. political satire), or with a deliberately exaggerated inflection which native English speakers would normally interpret as sarcasm. But nobody ever sat down and decided to make English work like this: it happened spontaneously. This is the same with many aspects of culture, and depends on shared values which we learn from our parents and teachers. But we also adapt and change, so notions of what is polite and what isn't varies not only with geography, but also with time. Each generation introduces some of its own ideas. Human communication is very subtle and extremely inefficient. Which just proves one thing: if God exists, he isn't German. ;)
I'm probably a closet German. It irritates people that I take them so literally. I know what they mean, but I just wish they'd say what they mean. Also, didn't Martin Luther invent the German language, so he wouldn't have to write a separate Bible for each "dialect"?
Martin Luther's 95 thesis were written in Latin. So, no he didn't write down a formula "how to speak german" but the spread of these reformed ideas made it necessary to communicate throughout the german regions (it wasn't a country back then) and maybe it helped develop the language. I hope this is helpful :) Have a nice day
ShengDamast The 95 theses are a different thing. Luther wrote a very influential German translation of the Bible, which is what is being referred to here. Modernized versions of his translation are still used in some churches today.
omg the last one is so true! when we visited my grandma (she was very very talkative) we'd say we'd leave now and that now ended up being at least one hour later
The "I'm a bit peckish" hit me. Often even if I said "I'm hungry", my German friends were like "oh great, we're going to eat" and then spend like 3 hours doing stuff unrelated to food 😅 I always got the impression that Germans don't get hungry...
You nailed it on the head, at least in my experience. Of course the same could be said between the difference between American and British humor and methods of communicating. I think it was in the book "King Rat" where the one British prisoner was given an egg by the American prisoner, and the Brit said (something like) "Nice" and the American was offended because he knew the other hadn't had anything that nice in a long time, but the Englishman hadn't wanted to embarrass the American by an overflow of emotion. Oh no, I'm being boring...I guess I've been infected by the German willingness (major understatement) to Discuss things ad nausium. Anyway, I love your videos,
Pretty much it. Especially with the British. With regard to politeness [using subjunctive and long meaningless phrases, etc.] my (British) English teacher said: When you feel like totally overdoing it, then it's probably correct...
I would translate "If you say so" as "Na wenn du das sagst..." which in my opinion states clearly that you disagree, but maybe want the discussion to end.
When in Rome... If You say "I'm in severe agony!!!" to a German (who has seen this video), he may deduce you mean: "I accidently cut my nails too short."
I understood a few of these the way you intended. And the cake one is a whole different topic. My grandma for example would ask us if we wanted cake while already putting a slice on our plate.😅
haha. most of it is true. being a really polite and careful person, most of the time i feel really misunderstood if i say "maybe you... / i think it might..." to someone. if you do a communication-training here, you still get taught to express your opinion in a gentle way, like "have you thought of...?"
Alos ich verstehe Ironie eigentlich immer. Es kommt nicht nur auf den kulturellen Hintergrund an, sondern auch darauf wie gut man die Person kennt. Ich antworte zum Beispiel oft mit Absicht auf einen ironischen Kommentar so als würde ich ihn komplett ernst nehmen. Oder wenn jemand mit Absicht übertreibt, sage ich ihm, wie es in Wirklichkeit war. Ich meine das aber selber nie ernst! Wenn also jemand zu mir sagt: da waren bestimmt 1000 Katzen (steht unten in den comments ;) ) dann würde ich mit Absicht antworten: das waren doch nur 20 oder so, einfach weil ich das lustig finde und nicht aus dem Grund dass ich die Übertreibung nicht verstanden habe. Meine Mutter macht das auch ganz oft...ich: Ja Mama, haha, totaaal witzig (ironisch gemeint) Sie: ja, da hast du recht. Und so weiter. Nur ein paar Beispiele :) Und manche von den Sachen, die du erwähnt hast, kennt man auch als Deutscher ganz gut ;)
As someone who's used to eating... often within a day, I totally relate with the "I'm peckish" part. I almost always feel a bit of shame when my (German) friends would follow my comment up with, "Do you REALLY need to eat NOW?" or "Are you REALLY THAT hungry?"... mainly because they usually have 5 or 6 hours between meals, whereas I'm used to maybe 3 hours between meals, with a snack in between.
It doesn't even matter whether I say I'm "a little peckish," "peckish," or even "hungry," I still get the same reaction. I think "starving" is the only acceptable time to eat, and even then you have to be absolutely certain you're starving. :-P
Ren lernt Deutsch It's actually just the "a little" part. This literally means "a little bit", and it communicates that you could eat something in the near future, while you are not in the immediate danger of starvation. If someone is really hungry, that's what they should say: I am really hungry, or I'm very hungry, or I could eat a cow and a horse, or however you want to paraphrase it.
Seegal Galguntijak Yes, I understand what "a little peckish" actually means, but I guess the point of the video is that some cultures don't directly state what they actually mean and find it more polite to state it in another way, whereas Germans tend to be more direct and take what you say at face value. So, one can say "I'm feeling a little peckish" to mean "I'm actually quite hungry at the moment" out of politeness (perhaps you don't want to put too much emphasis on your need/want to eat at that moment). I'm saying I relate with that because I frequently found myself in situations where I could use a bite, but because I couldn't outright state how hungry I was (directness isn't exactly a huge part of our culture), I was "willing" to let it go for another hour or so. :-P
Ren lernt Deutsch Yeah I kinda agree. Most of the stuff he mentioned in the video are actually things I think most Germans would understand the way they're meant. Otherwise I'd be in trouble, since I'm also pretty ironic or sarcastic most of the time and everyone understands me just fine. But when it comes to food, you really have to say what you mean, because in Germany "a little" really does mean you're just a bit hungry, so you could eat little snack 'till the next meal. (If there is anything edible available. If not, that's okay as well.) But if you actually want to eat a real meal you've got to say outright that you're hungry. Of course, if you want to express the urgency of the situation you could also go with the "I'm starved". ;)
For some of these, I can see that happening, but I'd understand most of your points the way you intend them. Although, when I talked about a slight breeze while it was storming the last time, I did get funny looks from my parents. Maybe I'm just too used to English by now.t (I do read, write, listen to and speak more English than German on a daily basis...)
i think i can see some of them happening, but since nowadays we get confronted with english and english speaking people everywhere in germany, i think most would understand or at least could guess what you really mean :D and yes, we do like to be more direct and honest, but we DO have irony and sarcasm ! ....and we use it quite a lot xD it's just that we use it in german and might not realize when you are using it in englisch ;p
Jein. Berlin-German: yes, it's direct. Franken-German: I'll take your word for it. Hamburg-German/Hannover-German: these people can, in some respects, outdo even a Kentishman at understatement and roundthebushbeating.
Huge, HUGE differences. The north, like Hamburg, has more in common with Scandinavian countries and the UK when it comes to certain cultural and humour-related things and mindsets than with the south, imho.
That's the principle of it, well, more or less. It is very common inside Germany because the time of the BDR and the DDR caused different mentalities in the federal states.
Well, I think even if there are Germans that can't understand your British irony or euphemism at all, they could still tell from your tone of voice or the circumstances that you have meant something different than what they might at first have thought. For example "I'm not sure I agree with you". They had to be completly ignorant to think that you would actually be so 'unsure' to agreeing with them since you couldn't form your own opinion. If they know some English they would get it. If it is very basic maybe not. But then you couldn't talk much to each other any way and through the circumstances they'd probably get it sooner or later I guess.
I actually had no trouble understanding the true meaning of these, but I do talk with a British person almost every day. That said, I do make fun of this by taking it literally sometimes and apparently he's started doing it now, too :D
in fact germans dont have a problem with irony or sarcasm in basic the problem is for an non native english speaker you first try to translate all into a normal sentence , and maybe ....if you think about it , and can´t figure out in the first second the pronounciation of the words ( i mean " how " they are spoken ) ...you´re reaction is wrong . a bit like writen sarcasm, stupid gone wrong text messages ....etc.
I'm catching myself adopting these "understatements" from the English language - which is fine, when I'm in an English-speaking envirnment. Gets a bit trickier once I translate and apply them in German. :D
It was totally confusing for me when I first got into contact with British and American people. I'm quite direct, even for Germany. And I often complain about the people around me not being direct enough! However, for me there's a little difference. I think that I'm only THAT direct when I adress other persons. However, I use a lot of euphemisms when talking about other subject.
I am a German who used to live in Scotland, so I tend to use both the direct and the less direct way of saying things. It must be quite confusing for people around me
Haha, true, in a way. I think having grown up with parents from Eastern Germany, they learned to read and talk between the lines and sort of taught me the same. So in my family, and frankly also my circle of friends, we use a lot of "dry humor" that some people think is meant seriously. Funny video though... no sarcasm there. ;)
Entertaining and thought-provoking! That means I liked it and it gave me a new perspective on the effects of cultural differences on human communication. I think....maybe.
I'm lovin' it. It's nearly the same with Austrians and Germans. Austrians tend to a more euphemistic way to say things.... and although Austrians speak german there are using slightly different phrases than Germans are used to. I'm Austrian and as you can see I used words and phrases like "nearly", "tend to" and "slightly different"!
I think you're making too much of it. Irony and euphemism are used in the German language just as well. Just one example: "Hast Du Hunger?" -- "Überhaupt nicht." That could mean the person is not hungry at all, or that he is *really* hungry, can't you tell? The meaning is in the intonation. It's not so much a *cultural* difference; it's just that it is so much easier to miss subtleties like this *in a foreign language*, that's all.
What you describe is actually sarcasm, which Germans are very good at: as you say, the "difference is in the intonation", so the meaning is made clear by the speaker. Irony, however, is much more subtle than that, and there is usually no special intonation to signal it. To arrive at the correct meaning, you must be aware of many cultural aspects, particularly the formality of the conversation. Thus if I say, in a perfectly normal voice, "The government responded to the crisis with unheard-of speed and efficiency," if you don't already know what my opinion of the government is, you have a fifty-fifty chance of interpreting the statement correctly.
+rewboss now, sarcasm is used to insult. ich kann das nicht so gut auf englisch. Sarkasmus ist ein sprachliches Mittel das herabsetzend wirken soll wohingegen Ironie ehr als eine art Humor betrachtet wird. Doktor Allwissend hat dazu ein paar sehr gute Videos hier auf RU-vid gemacht.
I hate it when others try to make me take a hint instead of communicating efficiently like competent adults and _say_ what they _mean._ It's also cowardly and manipulative. All the good stuff.
Well, I'm german and I pretty much always use irony but you need to know when, how and where to use it. Sometimes you have to really underline what you say with your expression and sometimes people understand immediately. It depends on who you are talking to. If I don't know the person well, I wait before I start making jokes and using irony. Some people think it's rude and some simply don't understand it at first but I think that's normal. I grew up with it and people tend to get a culture shock whenever they visit us xD You simply need to be a bit more sensetive about it and know whether the opposite person uses irony themselves or not. Maybe it's tricky but I never met a person who had been mad at me or anything
Germans are the exception with their directness, which only few Germans realise. The cultural clash is even more pronounced with east asian cultures. Few Germans accept that an "agreement" can be something other than the final result of a negotiation. It is, however, often just the start of the negotiations. This puts naive Germans at a disadvantage having played their cards early and openly. But some have learned to trick their counterparts into believing that their "final price" is "German final", where it is in fact "Chinese final". Its a fun game to play.
What you forgot about is: Continuing the conversation for 20min is the German way of saying good bye. At least, if the persons you are talking to considers you interesting enough ...
One feels that the "what I mean" - parts came out not quite easy. Typical British, isn't it? When to be polite, when to be direct? We need to return to politeness, but what's behind it? Directness, yes, but isn't it ignorance of the other's feelings? Maybe it's a question of culture (, while there are great differences in Germany, e.g. we north Germans are direct or polite, indirect or impolite, simply by not talking), but maybe it's also a question of personal taste, of good or bad humour. I, if asked for my preference, would say, I really prefer directness combined with capability to talk over my cruelties rather than the not - coming to the point by politeness and the "Don't we all just like each other?" So that makes me a typical German? Yes, maybe... Thanks for the video.
after 2 examples i could guess what you actually meant, but as a german to me everything was like: what you say: "yes", what germans understand: "yes", what you actually meant: "no". are you sure you're not a woman? :D
Was ich mich gerade frage: Was sagt man in England, wenn man WIRKLICH nur "einen kleinen Hunger verspührt" oder es wirklich nur "leicht windig" ist? Woran erkennen Engländer untereinander dass ein leichtes Statement tatsächlich nicht ironisch gemeint ist also kein Understatement?
XD ich werde nicht verstanden aus dem gleichen Grund... Ironie und Sarkasmus benutze ich sehr regelmäßig und viele verstehen mich nicht... aber nicht nur die Deutschen um mich herum... da stell ich mir die Frage... wie deutsch bin ich eigentlich noch...?
Dutchies are the same - although even the Germans think we're rude "und frech". So - if you fail to get your point across in Germany, you'll certainly fail in Holland. This subtlety is taken at word value. Please use the "What I actually think" variant when dealing with Dutchies! They won't be offended, I promise you - and simply return the favor ;-)
that's actually true, many germans don't get irony and sarcasm very well, they will eventually, but not at first. there's exceptions to the rule though, of course. what germans are best at is, whenever they or their mannerisms are being made fun of (e.g. on youtube) or someone criticises their lack of humour, they will respond by exactly doing that: not showing any sense of humour or understanding towards what was made fun of. pointlessly correcting what has been said and trying to justify their behaviour. even if germans make fun of germans.
"You MUST try a slice of this cake!" Reminds me of the Horrible Histories sketch about the Hitler Youth which was done in the style of an advert. "You must join today. No really, you MUST JOIN! It's compulsory!"
Well, I haven't heard of the sketch, but the advertisement's message ("It's compulsory!") was most certainly true! I can kind of see the parallels as well. After all, as the British or American was reported to have said to his German guests about the cake he baked: "Eat it!"
What Germans are you talking to? I understood everything as youn meant it. And I often use the same euphemisms and ironies when talking to other people... This seems to be a very regional thing.
If you translate if you say so as, wenn du meinst, I would most of time interprete that not only as I disagree but more so as not only is your opinion wrong I also don't care about your opinion being wrong and have given up on trying to explain to you why it is wrong since I don't think that any amount of explanation is going to be enough to make you understand.
I don't remember you telling where you live at, but from what you point out here, it must be Berlin. I'm from Bavaria. You know, here it's quite amicable to call someone a Sacklbicker or Zipfeklatscher (both literally referring to someone fondling/adjusting their crotch).. yeah, I made the mistake to talk like that to a Berliner..
I'm failing at *not* getting defensive so here I go: check out the Chinese. Holy Bajeezus, I'd be surprised if they even have words for sarcasm and irony. If we were to put a scale to this, the Chinese would score a 10 flat while us Germans would probably "only" get a high 7 or low 8. But yeah, we have our difficulties taking things _not_ literally. By the way, I found the Dutch to be even more sarcastic than the British. And don't even get me started on Finns, they're a whole category for themselves.
Haha no, I actually do have friends who appreciate my way of phrasing things. My uni course features a lot of group work and I've noticed that most of the time people enjoy open and direct criticism. I just know of one girl who can't stand it (she's the only one from down South and the others just said it was her being posh but I certainly can't judge that!). My boyfriend (typical polite British gentleman) really enjoys it because in some situations it's just necessary to be "rude" (i.e. when we waited 2 hours in a restaurant) ;)
Knuddelmuffin Yeah, well, when you tell the waiter something like "I've been waiting for a little bit", then you'll be waiting another 2 hours, because they think it was only like 10 minutes or so ;-)
We have the same problem between British English and American English. If I comment that some chick has a really nice fanny. I'm talking about her behind while you think I'm talking about the exact opposite. If I say I"m pissed, you may think I"m drunk. If you talk about a cars bonnet, I'll think you're nuts for putting a hat on a car. Our cars don't have boots, we use tires. They seem to work better. Something to do with the round shape them I guess :) We do have roundabouts but we call them rotaries and there aren't many of them. Too bad because I find a roundabout preferable to waiting for a traffic light at a complicated intersection that was much better when it was a roundabout. Tschuss.
naja einige sind auch im deutschen klar verständlich zum beispiel if u say so.. in deutsch wenn du das sagst... ist schon klar verneinend. Man sagt ja extra das "du" welches eindeutig vermittelt: "das ist bloß deine Meinung."
