I had a Toyota Corolla years ago that ate rebuilt alternators for breakfast, and the irony was that I worked at an auto parts store when it was doing it. They would last about 3 months and then just wig out - spikes, no charge, you name it. After the 3rd one the rep from the rebuilder bought me a new Toyota alternator to see if the problem still existed - and when I sold the car 7 years later it still had that OEM alternator on it. They never were able to give me an answer as to why they were failing - on the bench they all tested perfectly and met all the standards, but in my rig they failed at 3 months or less. Made a believer out of me for OEM parts! The true irony was that I had a friend that put the same exact alternator in his rig (reman), and it ran for years with zero issues at all.
To me the 'clicking' solenoids would be a clue. Everytime I see something 'weird' happening I think 'bad grounding' somewhere. I'll wait for part 2. Interesting one though.
@@reddogwb Seen old clapped out cars do this. Always assumed it was a weak ground but can't say from personal experience. But that's what I'm thinking. Sure it will be more complex. One thing though, I don't think it's really the alternator at fault. It may be borked now but I don't believe it's the cause. More investigation needed.
As an electronics guy, I'm climbing the walls at seeing a system voltage at 10V. Either the battery is absolute trash, or you have a massive voltage drop somewhere. I would have dropped everything right there to look into that. When the power is bad, you can't trust the computers. Also, in your bonus footage (29:47), the ground on the square waves keeps moving. The tops can move with the system voltage, but moving bottoms strongly suggests a bad ground somewhere. Looking forward to Part 2.
yes, good thinking: poor GND for ECU causes the logical Ref to get skewed and signal logic to halt. There is a drop between ECU-GND/ ALT-GND caused by: >>> fix >>> dirty ECU GND tie strap! 99% chance ALT unit is A-ok. Unplugged ALT are designed to be self-regulated like in the old days before crazy/smart controls. BATT voltage is measured directly by batt sensor with direct batt. connections. No harness drop can be involved with this direct batt. sensor... I have the feeling Vid#2 is gona be as interesting as Vid#1. Spaciba Dr. Ivan : happy new year too. 👍👍
Just a heads up, H and K car PCMs do not play nicely with aftermarket voltage regulators. I have run in to this situation many times. Sounds like you are on the right track! Also, these alternators use over-run clutches on the pulley. I have seen them seize and this will cause a flickering light concern at idle/low electrical load. If you run high fans/high beams and the flickering stops then that is a good indicator it's the pulley before you pull the belt off and check it by hand.
Can anyone describe what the heck those pulleys do? Do they have a sprag bearing to let the alternator momentarily "freewheel" faster than the belt? I can't wrap my head around why lights would flicker if the pulley is stuck and acting like a traditional alternator pulley... This is something I've wondered for a while but I haven't known where to find info on these modern alternators and why it's done that way.
@@volvo09 as far as I know, they’re usually found on four cylinder engines, especially diesels - as the engine runs, the crank speeds up as one cylinder fires, and then slows down a bit until the next one does. The overrun clutch allows the alternator to freewheel/spin faster than the belt during those moments of slowdown, so the rotational velocity of the alternator doesn’t vary as much as with the engine. The more cylinders an engine has, the less speed variation there is per one 360 degree rotation, because more cylinders are firing over that time. Compression ratio also has something to do with it… the more compression there is, the more the crank will slow as each piston reaches TDC compression. So back in the days of big V8s or low compression flathead sixes, there may not have been as much of a need for an overrun clutch? Or there was just less demand on vehicle electrical systems, with fewer voltage sensitive components involved. Just a guess. I’m sure there’s more to it though.
@@dphoenix1 ok, that makes sense, to help to reduce more of that vibration you feel with a 4 cylinder at idle by eliminating jerky inertia swings. I was thinking of it from an electrical side and completely overlooked NVH reduction.
@@dphoenix1 I believe it's because nowadays belt tensioners are spring-loaded and they are being messed up pretty fast while trying to keep the belt stretched with the engine at idle, specifically if there’s little or no load on the alternator.
I have seen these overrunning clutches and haven't figured it out for sure. I haven't noticed a pattern between less nvh in a vehicle with one vs one without. Maybe less belt flutter somehow?
I had the same issue with my 1997 Dodge Ram Van with the 3.9L engine. Every two years I had to replace the battery because it would not hold a charge. I found out that a Battery Temperature sensor located under the battery attached to the battery tray was faulty. I replaced the battery sensor to no avail. So, I cut out the variable Battery Temp sensor, and replaced it with a 22K resistor instead. It worked! The battery started to charge at 14 volts, and the idle stayed at 600 RPM. AAAA+++++
I'm gonna say that the voltage spikes on the L wire are actually ghost voltage from a bad ground, rather than true voltage coming out of the alternator. I say this because the customer never mentioned seeing a flickering charge light or any charge light at all for that matter. You'd think you would notice something too during the video, but you didn't. So I'm gonna say that the bulb might be loose in the cluster and every time it's unhooking itself, the L wire goes to 12 V of ghost voltage. (probably feeding back through a resistor somewhere on the alternator's circuit board) P.S. A great test would be to turn the key to on (engine off) and look over the bulb check to see if the battery light is missing or not.
Being that this only happens in the cold weather my guess is there is some sort of an electrical or electronic component like with a bad solder joint as it shrinks it moves further away from its contact point or pad in cold weather but when it heats up it expand just enough to reconnect itself.
I thought the same thing but when the engine is warm it would likely be warm enough to simulate warmer temps. The only happens when it's cold is an interesting symptom though.
@@MidAtlanticRadioRepair Ture but not the PCM and other wires then there the instrument cluster what seems it doesn't enable the light when it stops charging but it very well could be the alternator internal parts but you have to disassemble the whole thing in order to find that out and check all the readings on it
I think being cold is just a red herring. A weak battery does not like cold. Then the shop notices the voltage and says, you need a new alternator too.
I have a Toyota Sequoia 2004 and had lots of battery issues. I don’t drive it much and the battery would go bad every 5-6 months. The alternator was charging at 13.7 or so voltage output. I don’t like that low of charge voltage and modern batteries especially AGM batteries like 14.3 or higher to be happy. After researching this I found a lot of info on replacing the alt-s fuse with a diode/resistor and trick the computer into thinking the output was lower than actual and it upped the voltage output up .5 volts making the alternator put out 14.4 or so. Haven’t had a bit of problem since I did this. Maybe look over wiring diagram and see if something like that is possible here.
this here is a digital system. It relies on voltage measured directly by batt sensor. ECU control ALT with duty cycle... Using a "diode junction drop" can't work in this digital control loop.
Great I always enjoy guessing. Makes it kind of like a mystery. A car mystery not a murder mystery not an intrigue mystery just a good old-fashioned car mystery. Keep up the good work.
Have not watched part II yet but had one of these cars (same year too!) In my case, I had issues with no crank intermittently. Checked battery (good per test at parts store) and started to suspect the alternator but then found out that the main ground on these is notoriously poor from the factory. It is right behind the battery bolted into the body -- there is a pin on the terminal that sticks into the body while the bolt secures it down to the painted metal. Solution was to sand down to bare metal and torque bolt to "factory specs". Never had that problem again and sold car with the fix @114K. Currently have Hyundai Santa Fe Sport...had same issue and did same fix. Still rocking at 167K!
My guess is the aftermarket alternator and associated internal voltage regulator just gives out eventually. Couple that with the fact the alternator controls the pulley clutch in these I believe, and it’s a recipe for disaster. And the sad part is a car with too much or too little voltage running through it constantly can cause other issues down the road.
1st thought: I wonder if the clicking of the solenoids are related, because that's not right.... Bad earth somewhere, that maybe also feeds the AMS? Also as others have said, no charge light - that's a red light right there! (Pun intended) No way even a cr*p alternator needs to be replaced same time every year so something else is causing it!
Man, I haven't dealt with these smart-charging systems much, and I'm really struggling to wrap my head around what's happening here! Looking forward to part 2, and looks like I've got some homework for the weekend! Thanks for another awesome video, Ivan! You consistently make me think, and I appreciate it! :)
Honda use a similar system. There are papers floating around describing it in detail if you search. Basically just regulation of the alternator output voltage by the ECM to match the electrical load.
The idea is simple, make the alternator work exactly as hard as it needs to, to save fuel, prevent unnecessary cycles on the battery. I mean the communication between the alternator and ecu seems like basic stuff, they could've fed Lin bus into it, they didn't do that and just feed it with a percentage and the alternator sends a acknowledge signal.
Ford's had a charging issue in the early 90s when they switched to serpentine belts they inadvertently removed the only cooling for the alternator which caused the regulators to overheat and they would freak out similar to this, or catch fire. Another thing that might be causing an issue here, is the car in Eco mode? if it is it will shut the alternator off at idle to reduce load on the engine thus (supposedly) reducing emissions, in that case a week or bad battery would cause the lights to flicker as the alternator is not turning on quick enough as the smart charging system is getting bad data, effects would be similar to what's happening here.
I went thru this with an F150. I had the 1st gen alternator. Ford upgraded later, ford guys will know what i mean. however one of the oldest auto parts franchises( P.B) sold me their lifetime alternator and it died every year. I kept going back to the place, wrenching out the old, putting in the warrantied alt. I finally went to a professional alternator/ starter rebuilder and the alt lasted 7 years until i sold the truck. Just saying...you can get screwed over and over
never buy a "rebuilt" one. I've seen one right out of the box where the pulley turned with a squeaking noise. Rebuilts are pretty much garbage and aren't much cheaper than a new one.
@@adotintheshark4848 there is nothing wrong with rebuilt alternators in fact the one in my truck is 5 years old it from REMY what do you want to stay away from are Advance, O'Reilly, Autozone and Pep Boys and their house brands tend to be the worst.
I was at the parts store to buy a starter for my Fiesta. They wanted like $250+++. Like heck no. Asked a old school friend and he said why don't you just rebuild it? 70 bucks at the re-builder and boom like new!
@@cd9225 thats a good option if you can park the car for a few days. Most people stress out.." gotta keep using that car". A good rebuilder will reject cheaper quality wearables..they use higher rated diodes for example, better bearings, have more time and better tools to do it right..good decision by you😀
@@pootthatbak2578 I'll take a local rebuild shop over a parts store alternator anytime. Some of the local rebuilders do better than OEM with upgraded diodes, etc.
When my wife's 2013 Infiniti EX37 (now 50kmiles) quit charging I had a charger connected to the battery while I ran the engine and the alternator started charging. That was about a year ago and it has worked fine since. At that time the OE alternator was over $800! Glad I didn't have to buy one!
I feel so bad for the customer, having your car fixed isn't cheap by any means, 3 alternators, and having them put on, money for nothing and it's happening way to much, great work Ivan, so glad her problem is finally solved.
I had a problem replacing starters on a Ford, they only lasted a couple of months before they went out. I found that it was the Western Auto starters didn’t have insulation in them. So I switched to a NAPA starter, and no issues after that. With the warranty I was just taking out one bad part, and putting in another bad part.
The severe sys voltage fluctuations are a huge red flag to me. Does it have electric power steering? What does a battery tester say about that battery? Re-test with a know good battery. The cold can make a bad connection get worse. I think, there's a bad connection in the main power distribution, right at the battery, not affecting the starter hi-amp connection but affecting a whole bunch of other circuits. Main power to the car might even follow an alternate path, messing up the senses of the 'smart' alternator, probably degrading them. Alternator might revert to a default strategy (when that PWM-signal stops), which is probably still okay for normal conditions but won't cut it in winter time. I think there's not enough info, yet.
Yeah, did you see the way the bottom of the wave forms at 29:47 changes? I think there's a bad ground connection between the alternator and the battery (also scope) ground. But one that doesn't affect the starter.
@@russellhltn1396 yes poor logic GND but ok power GND as witnessed by the good starting current from low extra drop voltage. check... : 1- ECU to chassis logic strap. 2- ECU to engine logic strap. 3- (Strap chassis to engine... ok!)
@@glasser2819 Keep in mind the scope was connected to battery ground. I'm thinking there's corrosion between the starter and the engine block such that the starter has a good connection, but the engine doesn't.
@@russellhltn1396 Starter GND is proven ok by good cranking. This means engine GND strap to chassis/batt ok to feed starter. I bet... poor ECU Ref. GND is the issue to ALT. issue.
@@glasser2819 Yes, starter ground is good. But I'd look to see how the engine gets it's ground. The strap might be going to the starter, but there's a bad engine/starter connection.
The bit that confuses me as a new alternator fixes it for a short time. I would slap an ordinary alternator+bulb in with no fancy bullshit, put all the lights on so it has a decent constant load. I feel sorry for the customer having to buy another alternator every year :-(
Hi Ivan! This charging system reminds me of Ford's smart charging system as the two systems seem very similar. One of the tests on Ford's smart charging system are to validate the two wires, (command and feedback) for integrity and to prove that the PCM is working correctly. In this test, the connector is unplugged and the command and feedback wires are jumped together. The switch is turned to the on position as the engine does not need to be running to perform this test. As you know, the PCM is creating the PWM signal on the command line while the feedback signal is being held high which is provided by the PCM. You can monitor the % duty cycle command voltage in the scan tool and % duty cycle provided by the alternator. Or you can monitor those two lines on your scope as you've shown. The command signal will provide the pulsing of high and low to the alternator line which is going to be the same on both wires since that are jumped together. The PCM will recognize that the duty cycle from the alternator is satisfied and will stop pulsing since it will be a mirror waveform on the feedback line. The command line will go high and then the feedback line from the alternator line will go high. Then the PCM will recognize that the feedback line is not sending back a pulsed signal and will start commanding it back on. So, you should see some pulses on both lines, a brief period of high voltages on both lines and then the pulses will start again on both lines. I've tried this on Fords smart charging system and works very well. At least this will tell you that both of these lines are okay and that the PCM with it's hardware and algorithm are working correctly for the charging. The PCM's command signal is a duty cycle which sets the charging voltage setpoint. The higher the duty cycle the higher the setpoint. On the feedback side, the duty cycle represents the amount of load current that the alternator is creating. For example, if the alternator is rated for 150A, and it has a 75% duty cycle, the generator is provided 75% of its rated current or 112.50A. Hope that helps out Ivan and looking forward to Part 2. Have a great day and don't work too hard!
Yup theory of operation is absolutely crucial to understanding these systems. Hyundai doesn't to a good job with wiring colors or description, but at least they provide some semi-useful waveforms :)
A lot of GREAT COMMENTS but mine isn't one of them. All I'm getting out of this one is Ivan's GREAT quotes about SMART CHARGING, MANUFACTURERS, JUNK PARTS, TRUSTING SCAN DATA, DEALERSHIPS ( PART CHANGERS ) & SO ON. He kills me with these, I NEED THAT ! THANKS SIR IVAN.
I had a Ford Ranger that would not charge when below 30 degrees until heat built up under the hood. I put an internal regulator in the alternator and fixed the problem.
experiment: Leave the scope connected. Try a smaller diameter alternator pulley? What if the oem alternator had a smaller one, and the (aftermarket) whitch usually comes with a "new" pulley is slightly larger. That might account for lower voltage at idle.
A few more tests before you can call it perhaps? I would be interested to see a voltage drop on the wire from the alternator, to the center of the positive post, and from the alternator to the center of the negative post. A reading with the amp clamp, to see what output is at idle (not enough output vs. too much draw). Since this alternator is commanded on with a low command, maybe pull the command wire low with a test light (briefly) to see if it's a command problem, or an alternator problem (similar to the old "full field" test on non computer controlled alternators). And of course, circuit integrity on the indicator light. Enjoying the video as always!
With proper control the alternator should be able to compensate for that. On idle it should go to almost full field duty cycle and it should fall off with the engine RPM increasing. Battery charging current should be pretty much consistent across the RPM range, right now it's overcharging the battery at high revs and possibly damaging the battery. This looks like a faulty field coil driver transistor in the alternator. The amount of field in the windings is the same regardless of the duty cycle commanded, otherwise it would have affected the charging current, instead of the charging current being linear with the RPM.
@@Stoney3K You forgot to factor in that this only happened in cold weather problem and yes you are correct when at idle it should go to more full field duty cycle and it should only fall off with the engine RPM increasing and the Voltage Regulator, Diode rectifier take care of rest and being that it not draining the battery with the car off we can rule out the any internal parts within the alternator to me this has to be something else this could be PCM some part of the smart system what is more puzzling is a dash change light it's not coming on when the alternator is not producing any power and the charging light should have come on in instrument cluster but it is not coming on at all.
@@SHSPVR It only happening when cold could indicate some kind of bad solder connection or thermal expansion/contraction, but in that case I would expect some connection to come loose and not give any field current at all. Right now it appears the alternator is running at full field or 50/50 all of the time, which could be a fallback mode in case there is no means of control. The control wiring from the PCM to the field drivers could be the culprit as well as a bad signal ground, as the desired and feedback PWM signals never match up, and the red trace being pulled high is very suspicious. You would expect two wires to be PWM and one to be either constant ground or constant power.
@@Stoney3K I know I ready said some kind of bad solder connection that in my own main post one thing for sure is the real head scratcher but I'm sure he'll get it figured out.
Just sat down for the day and watched this, then searched for part 2, Found OZ Mechanics talk about this charging ( Duty Cycle ) and said it was normal for 12 volts charging no load. Then realized you just posted this a couple hours ago. Can't wait for Part2 because you did find 12 volts charging but have dimming and flickering - he didn't. Sounds like a bad module command or some corrosion on a positive cable.
Have seen the older Ford setups with the gen mon gen com circuits doing wacky things with aftermarket new and reman alternators. A few times have found the amp clamp sensor was not around all the cables causing wacky things. Have seen a few of the newer Ford systems that have the current sensor right on the terminal where someone added an adapter/shim/metal bracket in line and wacky things are the result. In the dual 65 series battery diesels they tend to run for a long time before wiping out the batteries. One of the diesels with dual alternators really threw me for a loop.. one alternator had been replaced with reman junk but the other was oem and functioning christmas tree dashboard and lights flickering like a disco party
Some of those waveforms look a bit funky in terms of the ground side, I agree there could be a bad ground somewhere. May still be a bad alternator as well however. Battery may also be spanked now too. From what I remember reading on these Hyundai AMS systems, they tend to charge up the battery more during deceleration and less during acceleration or idle, to take more advantage of otherwise wasted energy. Almost like the regen braking on a hybrid or EV. Those inputs for headlights, max blower etc. are to make it give more voltage from the alternator to make those run better even if the battery doesn't currently need it.
May be try disconnecting battery sensor connector on ground battery terminal while the vehicle idling and see if there is any changes. Looking forward to part 2.
You missed that the pulsing green trace lifts off the zero volts mark when it's idling. It's pulsing with the duty cycle at 12 volts when it's high but the low time it fluctuates from near zero volts to well above zero volts. I think it's a ground problem. The green trace should stay at zero volts when it pulses low. I don't think it's the alternator. The clicking solenoids seem to point to a ECM ground problem too.
I think I read something about alternators and smart charge systems in cold weather controlled by ECU and temp sensors, so they can give out more power in cold weather, also it should have the correct Battery fitted.
I don't like how the low level of the green trace gets elevated during idle. A simple test would be to by-pass the PWM signal from the ECU and directly pulling it to ground, to see if the alternator will charge when commanded on 100%. One day I will find/buy/make a PWM box that can simply output a PWM signal for me so I can create such signals myself.
Brother had a 2006 Ford Mondeo ST 2.2 diesel, the alternator went bad after a good few years of ownership and 2 replacement ones lasted about 6 months each, the 3rd one sorted the issue and it was the OEM alternator from the main dealer, this car was also equiped with smart charge nonsense, also came accross similar issue on a transit connect.
As stated earlier, Honda has a similar system. Worth researching. Also I know Honda is very finicky about alternators and what works best is either OEM or Denso reman from RA. Most other alts use inferior electrical parts in the regulator circuit that don't work or last very long. Probably a similar situation here.
When my original alternator died in my 2012 Odyssey, I replaced it with an alternator that I purchased at AutoZone. My van has been pulsating ever since I replaced the alternator. Is it possible that I need to replace my alternator to stop the pulsating even though it is charging the battery? Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Dr. Ivan you never fail to impress us with your sharp analysis.... spaciba. Here the logic GND seems to be fluctuating. Your scope is referenced at the battery post. Test the GND drop voltage : to ECU logic.
Can't wait for part 2 but I also suspect the aftermarket alternator....it has gotten to the point now that anything aftermarket is automatically suspect #1. Parts industry is horrible right now
@@glasser2819 sure, pay for a diag then pay less for aftermarket then when it fails...pay someone again to diagnose it then pay for an oem unit to fix it... Do the math
Auto start/stop , Smart Charging Systems and Cylinder Management Deactivation System = Big headaches and big 💰 out the door 🙄 Looking forward for part Il Ivan🤙
My guess is high resistance somewhere in the wire from the alternator to the battery, most likely at the 150 amp fuse. I would voltage drop test the fuse.
Since it is a re-manufactured alternator at this point I might crack it open and make a schematic of what I find. I would also check every capacitor, resistor and diode I could find. Now you have a bit more to add to the schematic. I can't wait for part 2. I too am very concerned with grounds. Just for sanity's sake measure resistance between B- and the alt case, engine block and what ever frame components have any ground wires on them. Happy hunting.
It’s most likely the alternator Ivan. I would still do the standard charging system voltage drop test jus to confirm there is no external issues. I have had this issue with wire color mismatch but the PIN numbers are usually correct so keep tht in mind.
Just put 4 alternators in a 06 Corolla. First 3 had wrong regulator in them and would cause battery light to stay on dim. (Napa). Got a different rebuilt one from another supplier and works properly. Thank god for being on the labour warranty program. Bet the rebuilder is using “flying wing” parts
Hi Ivan, it appears that the alternator is not the root cause of the failure. also others have stated that something else is causing the problem, I agree.
hi all, years ago I bought a new Chevy with a 4 speed and a gauge group, the tach lasted about 1 week, chevy replaced the tach but I could still see it jumping when I pushed in the clutch. the cause was a solenoid's collapsing field, I put a diode across it and the problem was solved. who knows a heated seat relay?
A bit daft are the so-called "smart" charging systems... encountered a few ford ones. The PCM monitors air intake and coolant temp, reads a cold engine and boosts charge voltage, pulling back as engine warms up. The ford system doesn't adjust to demand, just temp. Jump starting a duff battery on this system is asking for trouble- it can push out 18v with the obvious hazards to components. Also the ford's need a silver calcium battery to function correctly- lead-acid batteries won't work properly.
Weird one, Ivan! My first thought was poor connection somewhere in the charge system or battery terminals, but it starts OK. Smart chargers have too much quirks, even the small ones for AA batteries - why complicate something that always worked flawlessly? I have a hard time believing that it's only the alternator that fails - maybe the PCM is too picky and gives up before time. Or can the PCM cook the alternator in summer and it only shows up in winter? Part 2 should be good :-)
Yes that is true I think they're getting too smart for their own good they should have left the old style alternator alone because as you said it worked perfectly for years.
@@russellhltn1396 I understand your point and they probably are pressed for it, but overcomplicating the charging system, by varying a bit the load on the engine according to electric requirements and engine regime, seems more expensive (in production and maintenance, which means less overall product efficiency), than the benefit of gaining a minor drop in fuel consumption.
@@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT The government MANDATES a certain MPG or they can't sell cars. Yes, it drives up the cost of cars, but it's the law. The law was created to because everyone screamed "do something about the environment". I understand your point, but the law doesn't respond to your logic.
There is a similar problem with the 2003 Acura RSX. Many folks, including me, report that the lights constantly blink. We've tried replacing the alternator (as did the previous owner), inspected the wiring, replaced the battery amp sensor, and the multiplex box. No joy, except the blinking went away for 2 minutes after replacing the multiplex box. Never did find a fix. My guess is a bad capacitor in the multiplex box. Which is unusual as there are only like three small electrolytics on there. A mystery!
Hey Ivan, you said that you weren't concerned about a voltage drop, but from the scan data you've got pulled up (around 10:40 in the video) there is right at .5V difference between the Battery Voltage pid and Battery Voltage AMS pid. Not sure what AMS is but half a volt difference doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. Like several other comments, I believe that you'll find some trouble with a poor connection. Love your videos! Great work
I find these "smart charging" systems very annoying. Last one I did was on a similar year Dodge Ram. The owner had just replaced the alternator with an aftermarket unit, but it still wasn't charging properly. I was getting ready to call it another bad alternator. But before I called the customer, I took the alternator out and had it bench tested. It worked perfectly. Turned out it was a problem with the PCM. But your right about one thing Ivan. You can't always trust that scan data is accurate. I can't wait to see part 2.
Interesting, scan data is confusing, so I would try another scantool to see what's going on. Snapon or autel perhaps.the flickering lights are a red flag, bad connection perhaps? I would check battery health and state and check if there is a battery management reset or relearn in the scantool. Also don't trust battery current sensor completely, verify operation with an amp clamp. Cheers, bring on part 2.
I think the alternator isn't the source of the problem but a symptom. The pwm signal is always between 0 and 12v, sometimes the low end is a bit higher. I bet that there's a loose connection somewhere or some green crusty's causing voltage or signal problems somewhere that interrupt the signal.
I saw 14.5 volts and 74 amps coming out of the alternator so I don't think it is the problem. Since it can charge without being plugged in I would be interested to see if the flickering happens while it is unplugged and running. If the "smart" charging shuts off the charging system so that it isn't causing extra drag when it isn't needed I would suspect that is the problem rather than the alternator and that might be why it gets replaced every year. I can't wait for part 2 to see if I am correct.
I believe may need to look at actual PID to match your scope reading as the desired would be neither of the scope signals just what the computer would like to see. Have seen it many times with those smart alternators sometimes hard get reliable ones other than OEM. Can't wait for part 2.
Graph the pwm% on the scope to help determine which signal is which pid in the scanner. I thought I was on board with your thought process until the bonus clip. Either way I'm patiently waiting for part 2!
A interesting problem, (I'm not the one who has to fix it) After some internet searching, the alternator problems reported seem to fall into two categories: 1) engine oil dripping on the alternator - there are recalls to correct this. 2) weird stuff - there seems to be reports of very similar charging system problems, including weird low voltage symptoms while driving.. I haven't seen the answer to the problems. People complaining about replacing their alternator three times. This was seen at 'carproblemzoo' I'll try to post a link below.
This sounds like a 2-3 part problem! Yet, with the amount of miles that it has on it, the first thing that comes to mind is either all the pulleys are heavily glazed, OR the damper pulley is nearing trying to come apart! This is a near similarity to a Mitsubishi Galant problem that left me stranded when it finally died! The damper pulley had nearly the same problem whereby the crankshaft damper pulley had come apart; literally! The bonding of the materials gave up and since it was a two piece construction pulley, well it decided to give up the ghost!!
Jim Morton preached how important to know what 'known good' looks like. when the vehicle is running correctly observe and document the behavior of these complex systems.
Pull out the trusty Power probe and do a diode test on the alternator. Bad diode can make light flicker. AC leakage beyond spec may also be the spike you are seeing on scope.
Hi Ivan, very interesting, but annoying problem. Hope the battery doesn't have some internal mechanical problem... At 18:54 the green PWM signal on the pico screen shows 12 volt peak-peak, but the low level is 4 to 5 volt Negative. This can only happen when there's a bad grounding somewhere; maybe in combination with some back EMP on the same rail. Lower temperatures might cause higher resistance in tiny cracked solder joints (ground pins at PCM or BM connector/board?). Higher temp or vibrations due to higher RPMs could reconnect bad joints. Does the Charge-Failure indicator lits up before crank when contact is ON? Are the clicking relais on the same rail & if yes, do they have suppression diodes mounted? Looking forward for the next part!
Back in the good old days, if your voltage dropped at idle, it was idling too slow. Simple! Why did they have to complicate it? I did learn a long time ago that battery terminals shrink in really cold weather, and that causes problems. With a nonsmart system, you get a no start. With a smart system, who knows?
Had a 91 Astro van that used to eat alternators due to heat. About 1 a year in summer of course. Advance auto got tired of seeing me until I sold it 10 years and 8 alternators later.
Hi there. I think that you need to check the battery first. If I read the health state of the battery it said 48%. As I remember Hyundai are using AGM style batteries, and after some years they go bad. If there are Stop And Go funktion on this car, this would not work below 75% health state. Perhaps the system prevent charging the battery if the health are very bad. And since the problem occurs when its cold, this issue points in a battery direction. Batteries are not fund of cold weather. So the other workshop has replaced the alternator several times instead of checking the battery first. The older Sonata models had a more severe problem. Leaking valvecover gaskit that caused oile to drip down in the alternator, and caused this to breake down.
The airbag system may have a defective component and/or is out of calibration! AND the TPMS batteries are drained to the point that all four need to be replaced! In addition to the previous mentions, the belt idler spring tension may as well be gone. Surely there should be belt squeal of some sorts or idler bearing noise, but that may not always hold true! The smart systems in these newer systems surely are managed by the ECU and there could be at fault too!
Ivan, I had this same exact problem with a friend's 2011 Kia Sorento . Apparently, the Warranty shop replaced the Alternator 3 times with crappy remans. Long story short, I found that KIA had a TSB for this exact issue with a specific Part # to replace the Alternator with. Apparently, Hyundai/KIA are extremely picky when it comes to alternators , thus needing the revised part number as it's only suitable replacement. I sent her the info, and the shop replaced it with the KIA Alternator. The problem was fixed. I'm assuming that all the aftermarket Alternators designed for these vehicles have the flaw built into them as the original did and haven't been revised like the Manufacturers .
When I was at hyundai anytime we got a no start we would hook up a jumpbox using the strut bolts for ground, anytime I have any electrical issue with a hyundai I like to eyeball the main ground first. I would also only use a OE spec alternator. Might be able to get a mando somewhere other than the dealer.
Why is there clicking when key on? I had Subaru's for 10 years and 200k miles, never change alternator but always had to clean battery terminals every year, but felt washers help on that....
I had a similar issue on Hyundai Accent 2012. the battery light was flashing on while driving, specifically when accelerating/kicking down, and once i release the gas pedal, the battery light turns off... Replaced it with original junkyard alternator, the light was comming off but less frequent. Then replaced it with another junkyard alternator.. Issue went away for a couple of days then cam back on.... 3rd time is a charm... Another junkyard alternator fixed the issue
Hi Ivan a bit od Old School infor, i had one once where the lights were flickering it was a broken sensing wire from batttery live to the regulator, on old UK cars if the charge light didnt work it wouldnt charge, not very often you see Delta wound stators, as you diagram, their usually star wound, good liuck sure you will cure it even if you have to fit a new pcm lol...Fred in England.
Hello. Can you please test drain battery in two ways I mean car stoped and car running at idle. I had the same problem in a honda and I found the cluster draining the charging system while in idle... Thanks
Ivan I've seen the lights flickering at times. Sounds like bad alternator, as mismatch is my guess. But I'm not sure what to follow here. Let's see what part 2 brings!
My understanding is that FR is the PCM command of the field current in the alt. COM is the alt output used as feedback to the PCM. The fact that a new alt works for a year says to me the VRs are poor quality.
I'm leaning towards the need for Factory Alternator. However, those Smart Charging systems use load shedding...Battery SOC, temperature, and load measurements from Battery sensors would be suspect. The routine failure of the aftermarket is not uncommon (or unexpected), but it certainly makes sense to be suspicious...but without a starting point of factory you're really at the mercy of the system. I look forward to the next video. Great video as always Ivan 👍
first time I drove one of those new silverados. I freaked out because the gauge on the dash was reading under 11 volts running down the highway... dealer told me it was just regulating the voltage ... so I guess the volt gauge on the dash is just for looks... because you will never know if you have a alternator problem or if it is normal by looking at that gauge...
The more "smart" innovations I see, the more I love my 96 Ranger and 98 Wrangler! The car manufacturers nowadays are really pumping out some major league garbage! These cars aren't getting any better fuel economy than the cars built 25 years ago! It's ALL geared toward making inferior vehicles that will be in the shop sooner than later for extremely expensive repairs!
@@on-site4094 That's exactly right! Anything that involves a computer, sensor, module and connectors will surely turn around and bite you on the ass. It's not an "if" but rather a when, and usually when you aren't in your driveway! NO vehicle built today is as reliable as one built 20yrs ago!
@@cardiaglexia995 That is wrong! Automobile manufacturers have been working towards the current state of unreliability since the late 60s! It has zero to do with "green" (and everything to do with the other 💵 green! If you'd spent the amount of time under hood's that I have in the past 40+ years, you'd understand. The auto industry loves the "greenies" because it gives them another excuse, but you can bet the bank that you would still be buying worthless piles of plastic and wires, regardless!
the voltage sensor buried in the main fuse box on my 2010 odyssey went bad. caused a wrong diagnoses on alternator was changed and did not stay problem free for long . smart charging system did not charge good on idle did some research and found that the charging system was at fault.
I changed a pigtail with an alternator once due to collision damage and managed to switch two of the wires. It had similar symptoms to this, it was still producing power but not what it should. Luckily I figured out my mistake after an hour of head scratching and getting a wiring diagram.
There is not a lot of difference in price vs labor cost. Cold weather discharges the battery and requires a lot more current on startup, then you have a cycle of failure, it's not getting the current, the battery starts to fail or is in discharged state, it needs more current. I wonder if has a dumb mode if the networks are not connected or set to constant high or low signal voltage, where you get codes set but it put out 14V.
Yeah, my BMW would not start, 2007 model, disconnected the blue connector for Intelligent Battery sensor, running fine for 2 years now. No point in registerig the battery after that, just get a 3 year warranty battery. Those IBS cables go bad often. Yes I have a shop manual for flow chart and lap top scanners.
Perhaps the replacement alternators are not providing adequate amperage to meet the winter driven electrical requirements for this specific vehicle. Maybe this vehicle needs a special higher amperage alternator and the winter demand keeps killing it when the headlights, seat heaters, windshield wipers, rear window defrost, and entertainment center amplifier are all on at the same time. 🤔
Check battery terminals and earths. Why? Battery also works as a load balancer, a capacitor. When terminals not titght current spikes load alternator and blow it up eventually. Terminals may be loose because of aftermarket batteries or lazy mechanics :)
I had an issue with battery charging and it was one of the ECU fuses in the wrong slot. The ECU could not read the battery voltage properly. Lots of error codes for low voltage (abs etc) and battery not charging properly. Put the fuse back in the right slot and sorted it.
Just one more thing to thank our Government for. Vehicle manufacturers came up with this type of system to reduce load on the engine when electrical demand is low. It's overly complex and many car makers have issues. All of this to squeeze 1/2 mile more per gallon of gas out of the car
I actually don't see how this increases gas mileage... If the battery is fully charged the alternator isn't doing much work anyways, no matter what the voltage is 🤔
So a quick google search would have given you the answer - "The benefit of the smart charge system is it can output a lower voltage over a longer period thus reducing the drag upon the engine, this reduced drag leads to improved fuel efficiency." So, this is the work of the EPA and our goverment!@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
There still shouldn't be much drag on the engine with a fully charged battery untill the lights and heat or ac is on. Then there will be drag. But no matter what there is going to be some type of drag when they are on so your still not getting better gas mileage. That's the same as the test with the windows down in one car and the ac on in another. They both have the same amount of gas in them but they pretty much run out of gas at the same time.
