D&D Isn't Slow - A Response To Runesmith 

Mom? Dad? Please don't fight. I promise I'll never play sorcerer again

Jacob basically saying "don't be mean to my friend; only I'M allowed to be mean to my friend!" is the most relatable thing in this entire video

The real solution is to cast Haste. Silly Logan.

Player: "Don't railroad me, bro!" DM: "The world is your oyster." "Player: "The fuck am I supposed to do?!"

DnD is slow: 5 minutes DnD is not slow: 20-30 minutes Oh the irony

Fair enough lol

2:23 Hah! You fool! Rumesmith didn't say "Different strokes for different folks," he said "Fair enough lol" in the comments section; thus, making your arguments invalid. This video is flawed. Disliked.

"Logan who hurt you" is a good summation of this. His points sound less like criticisms of the system and more like describing a bad DM

the virgin makeup channel drama vs the chad d and d channel disagreement

Waiting for Runesmith to comment "Different strokes for different folks"

I only find DnD too slow when nobody is involved; I got into DnD via CR as many did, so I want to RP with the group, but when the other 3-5 people are apprehensive and shy, it bogs down the game, making it feel hollow, slow. As Jacob said, arguing is still RP’ing, and entertaining than everyone just going “uh, yeah” and it zooming past us. I played in a campaign like this, where we’ve gone to like six different places with no details, talking, or real world building. I’d rather take 5 hours chilling in a town talking with the group, than zipping through everything.

"I'm not trying to roast him or anything" shows clips of them fighting to the death

Moral of the video- Logan wants to play Minecraft

I love listening to the party bicker and banter among themselves. It gives me an opportunity to think about what is next and review my notes. It also allows them to really feel out their characters.

Had a moment of “overthinking it” last session. We were standing over a pit of two guard drakes with black dragon eggs inside, and I had a vested interested in retrieving one of those eggs. We were arguing about how we should approach this, if there was any way to get down there without bothering the drakes, as well as why we had to go down there in the first place. Eventually I got so frustrated (in character) that I just blasted the door lock and we killed the drakes in barely three attacks total.

I like the idea of Jacob making this video 5ft away from Logan while muttering to himself

I feel like a lot of this video didn't even argue that "D&D isn't slow" but that "Slow isn't bad". Because I also agree that D&D is 100% slow. But I don't think its a bad thing.

On a more serious note: I 100% agree with what Jacob's saying. But also, *I've been in games like Logan described as slow / boring in his video and HOO boy they are not fun.* So I know where Logan's coming from. I agree with the spirit of what Logan's vid says, even if his examples are kinda all over the place. Getting plopped in a world with no goal is boring. Session zeros help so much with getting that awkwardness out of the way. You don't have to railroad your players, but a good session zero can help you know where they want to go before you start. For "auto-successes," I was discussing a topic of "the DM just lets you do something" with a few friends just tonight. It's honestly something that needs a bit more nuance, and a good example is just taking 10 or taking 20 on a task. The best example I can give, if you go through a huge dungeon crawl, you shouldn't be denied loot just because you rolled a 7 on your investigation check. (Recently in one game, we actually missed out on every single chance for loot because of this after clearing a super dangerous tower, no I'm not salty,) If the party knows there's hidden loot, and they can't reattempt their checks, you're blue-balling them by doing something like this, and they're going to deliberate on how to find it which leads to metagaming and a big slowdown on the game. If you let them take 10/20, the trade off is they're spending more in-world time for less real-world time to guarantee they get a success. There's other situations where this could also apply; basically, give players an option to auto-succeed on something if they have the ability to be careful with it and take their time in-game. It also works fine I feel for things that, for all intents and purposes, your character should essentially automatically succeed on. Trying to identify an abjuration spell, with an abjuration wizard in the party? He should just know what it is. It shouldn't be he rolls and fails, yet the barbarian decides to roll too without proficiency and somehow knows more about this abjuration spell than the abjuration wizard. As for combat simplifications, one great way to do big encounters is mob combat, from the DMG. It's a bit confusing at first, but having used it, it helps avoid the overpowering surge issue while still feeling like a threat, and without ever having to roll dice which saves you a ton of time. Zee did a video on it which is how I found out about it. The general idea though is that out of a mob, overall a certain percent of attacks are going to hit on average, so you just use the size of the mob, their attack bonuses, and the AC of your targets to determine how many attacks will hit each volley. And, when they're small enough, you can break them into individual monsters without any issue and go back to normal rolls. I've run an encounter with like 10-20 gnolls via this method and it honestly went pretty smoothly, though you do need to prep a table of your party's AC vs the attack modifiers before doing so. As for combo moves, I love the idea of them, but they honestly should just be done on your own turn and use reactions and help actions. If you think about it, people won't always know exactly what you're doing, so the best combo moves shouldn't require a lot of crosstalk--just a quick quip about "I'm doing this, do this now!" on your turn. Or you can ask your DM if the other player can do something as a reaction: playing a druid one time, our barbarian was gonna get mauled by an oversized owlbear, so on my turn, I wildshaped into a horse and asked the DM if he could grab onto me as a reaction to escape. DM just went by rule of cool. Improvised actions are also a thing which can work great for 'combo moves' if you're creative enough.

Congrats on the wedding, now in video's you don't have to say "This is my fiance, Spencer" everytime you introduce her Edit: WHOA didn't expect the heart thanks

Speaking of “directing the party” I’ve been playing in a campaign for 2 months now and we’ve completely forgotten about the story, and now one player is building a harem and a business.

Basically what I'm hearing is that Logan was frustrated and going through a railroad dm phase. It's okay, it happens to a lot of us.

8:00 So.... he wants the King to emerge from the waters and give laminated paper?

I think what Logan said can be summed in one phrase Jacob said "It sounds like you wanna play a videogame" Very little rolling, semi railroad story, and the narrator speeding things up And that just isn't DnD (my opinion, of course)

I know D&D isn't slow but that upload sechedule is a different story.

What’s this? A discussion between two respectable and passionate content creators in a public space to inform the community from two different perspectives so viewers can form their own opinions? Nay boi it’s time to draw battle lines! Let’s all fight in the comments!

"Different strokes for different folks." ~Logan, eventually

Initiative can make roleplay during combat even more intense. Some of the best roleplay moments in games I've played have been moments in combat where my character had to take their action to save their loved one or best friend or whatever and roleplay a moment with that other character.

"DnD is slow" I suppose you have never seen a party panicking over a boss?

You know... the DM guide has alternate initiative rules. The rules for Mobs of creatures exist. Sorting your abilities by Action, Bonus Action, Interaction, and Reaction speeds shit up to. Honestly it isn't that there are too many rules it is that nobody reads the books beyond Monster stat blocks, and player race/class/background. Read the books and become familiar with stuff and you can speed shit along.

It’s now officially undeniable: Jacob is turning into Cody. Response videos and everything.

THOUSAND OF RATS RUSH AT YOU Wizard: I cast magic hut *party proceeds to spend an hour discussing how to get rid of the rats*

As a first-time DM, I absolutely love the moments my players spend debating and arguing with each other because they used to be so hesitant to role-play

this is the best response video to anything ever, I know that partly you refused to flame him because he is your friend but more response videos need to be like this where you don't necessarily say they are wrong just point out flaws in what they say and argue your side without taking them out of context. Actually politics also needs to be like this.

I can imagine them being in different rooms of the same house typing up their scriptsand giving each other dagger eyes. Then going and playing a game togeather

also, these back-and-forths are great for me as a DM. hearing different people's suggestions for potential problems and possible solutions helps me consider what I love, and what my players love, about the game, so I can really make the game as much fun for everyone. keep up the good work! (and grats on the wedding)

"D&D is slow." [Looks at the World of Darkness game they were in that once had a 3 HOUR long single round of combat] hahahahahaha

Spending 1.5 hours arguing in and out of character about how to phrase a question that the DM has to answer because he gave us the Deck of Many Things and one of us pulled that card is still gameplay!

Me: Yes Xp to lvl 3: Wait... it is 20 minutes long and it has been posted 2 minutes ago Me: Your point?

Didnt know you married Logan already, Grats for the wedding XD

When I was watching Logan's video, I was like “eh, not sure about that one part. But this is genius, dude” Then I watched your video and was immediately like “lol, this Logan guy doesn’t know anything about dnd”

Our dads are fighting again

3:40 no see what happens is this: The DM creates a meticulously designed session accounting for all possible decisions the players could make. The players make a different decision. The DM panics for the next 5+ hours as they struggle to bring some sense of normality to the table.

It really sounds more like Burnout than an actual problem

rolling dice and conversing to figure out our plan is my favorite part of the game :,(

for me, when someone says "roll initiative'" i get hyped, but when some one just starts combat, its just not as fun this is just my dumb opinion...

"now guys me and logan are good friends and we dont hate on each other so this is just gonna be me giving my take on these opinions" *Proceeds to blot out the sun with the shade in this video

17:27 funnily enough, Baldur's Gate 3, a video game, has all those changes Runesmith asked for. My man predicted how the devs would adapt D&D into a video game environment. We have fixed inititive, you can examine every enemy to know their AC or just look at the giant hit chance above their head, you have a quest journal and map markers to tell you where to go, similiar enemies do take their turns at the same time, in co-op players can attack at the same time. My man Runesmith just wanted to play BG3 and I don't blame him.

I love that Jacob's video about why dnd doesn't take too long is literally 4x longer than Logans.

I see all DMs are having strokes.

It's interesting, as a player I'm so used to my groups taking ages to decide what to do on their turn. Now, as a new DM with new players, we're absolutely blitzing through turns. I'm talking 15-20 seconds per turn. In 5E. It's nuts, I was sweating from processing initiative order and marking off health on enemies so fast, and my players were still feeling like we should move faster. I'm like guys, I LOVE that we aren't dragging out our turns, but my god, I'm making mistakes that end up hurting you guys because I'm forgetting things. Let's shoot for like, 30 second to 1 minute turns, give me a dang minute to mark the damage you dealt to the enemy lol.

"In dungeons and dragons, your choices are permanent." Well that's really DM's fiat.

Slow isn't inherently bad. I think Logan is simply more of an impatient person, which I can relate too, at times. And perhaps being a DM isn't the best role for him because of it. A DM has to have A LOT of patience. That being said, Even Matt Mercer pushes on his players to keep the speed in the game and not bog things down too much. Perhaps a good chat with the players can help solve a lot?

I've found that there are lots of things that slow down play, whether you're a new group, or an experienced one. Personally I think it's better to just let players discuss the scenario for 5 minutes or so, and if they can't come to a decision, let each player vote and let it be decided that way. Having a consensus for players is pretty valuable, especially considering this a cooperative game.

I have played with people that make Dungeons and Dragons slow. When you have to drag yourself, to a gamestore, to meet with people, every other week, and only play a game for 2 hours (you know, in the before time) you immediately begin to notice who is taking way too long to do anything. Because instead of moving the plot along you spent an addition 2-5 minutes on X players turn because they couldn't be bothered to think about what they were going to do on their turn in combat, or forgot their abilities, etc. I've played games where the players all keep the pace up by being attentive, reacting when they should, and being prepared. It's wonderful.

Man those final seconds were so wholesome and adorable and made me happy

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Also, congrats on tying the knot!

This wasn’t so much of a “you’re wrong” response, but more of a “you’re right, but here’s why it’s okay”

My best memory in D&D was to plan for like 50 minutes about how to trap and ambush the BBEG to prevent a war. Seeing his split in half body crushed by a heavy armor paladin was so satisfying. We ended the campain on that, no war, artifact retrieved, good memories and sick magic loot. The best thing about all this is that it was a huge commit, not planned by the dm but he went along

D&D feels slow because people in the party can't stay off their phones, pay attention, they need a recap of the last 40 seconds, don't have any ideo what they're going to do in combat until it's their turn, takes a long time deciding what simple response they're going to say, and rules lawyers trying to prove the DM wrong and the inevitable argument that ensues about how the game is supposed to be played. I've played sessions where it feels really fast, fast, and flows well, and I've also played other sessions where the story went nowhere and what took 3 hours could've been done in 25 minutes.

yeah, I have to completely agree with both Xp to level 3 and Runesmith's video about the speed of dnd. For 5 months I have Dm'd my first game with some of my closest friends and I often found the game slow when the group had nothing to push them forward or nothing to entertain them story-wise but the moment they learned about an event that happened they literally began to book it to the place of the event cause that is where the story led them to.

"Jacob>Logan." That's a quote from your hot take video and it seemed like a hilariously fitting response to this video. In all seriousness though, you guys are both great.

After watching his video I decided to run the 10+modifier initiative rule and as a DM it saved a lot of time and I thought people liked it, to my surprise the players wanted to go back to the normal initiative rules because they like rolling initiative. If it's not broke don't fix it.

Homebrew mob combat rule Determine what % of the mob will hit/miss, then only roll those in initiative Aka: "3 monster hits/actions per round for this combat" 12 goblins, say only 25% of them will hit, so roll 4 goblins into the initiative order. It can be a different goblin each time. But thats how many times a goblin will be able to attempt or succeed an attack roll.

I've done the a variant of the rule where players act at the same time and it works great. If anyone on the same team is next to each other, they take their turns together. If there are any disagreements on strategy or order, the higher initiative player still gets to act first. You'd think it would be people talking over each other, but they actually coordinate really well, especially when it's not the whole table. This is all technically within the rules, but at least players never take advantage of these rules unless I implement this since when you hand someone the mic on their turn they don't really care or understand how to work with other players.

Honestly I’m totally on your side when it comes to the PCs talking. I’ve just run a session and a whole ton of it was bickering and discussing plans. As long as it took, it was also interesting to see what my players thought. But I do think that unless things are actually hitting, D&D combat is pretty slow. The party spent a full 15 mins just launching attack after attack towards a dwarf in a corner. There wasn’t much else to do, just roll. While there isn’t a clear or easy way around it you gotta admit, it can definitely be boring.

When we roll Initiative it's a 1 monster vs 1 party member roll. That roll determines which side goes first. The party gets 60 seconds at the top of each round if they want to strategise and get a ruling on the effect of a certain spell or whatnot. The team that wins Initiative goes first with 2 players or monsters which is the 1st turn. 2nd turn goes to the other team and so on until you run out of monsters. Players and monsters can act on the team turn of their choice so the party can switch and combo spells and abilities easily. I find it makes combat so much faster.

I like these longer, more serious commentaries. I'd like to see more discussions about divisive topics. Some examples off the top of my head: strength seems to arguably be the worst stat. Encumbrance rules, etc?

I guess Runesmith seems to be more like an impatient type of D&D Player/DM.

The part about the combat reminds me of my first big mistake as a dungeon master. 17 yetis.

Honestly I like knowing the ac. Because then you don't have to ask if you Hit. Then you can describe how you attack.

ngl this entire two video back and forth should have just been a conversation on the podcast.

My DM and I in our two campaigns allow turn combos. I do it in a way that helps expedite turns, since I already knew how I’d help the player, I just get them to delay their turn so I can do my action on them. That’s how we imitated the Meet the Medic video.

Honestly from what I've seen Logan plays like this, his characters have a backstory and an ideaology and then when things start to take too long he goes "eh, I guess the core beliefs and interests of my character aren't that important, let's do this faster"

One thing to speed up initiative I do is at the start of a dungeon I have the party roll initiate and use that for the rest of that dungeon. change it up if you start a new floor, less time rolling initiate more time killing monsters and finding traps

I think this would have been better as a joint discussion video.

I agree with you alot Jacob and I see some value in what both of you say. This unlike many other videos feel like authentic Critism and not just making controversy to get views

DnD is actually really slow and overcomplicated at times, specially rules wise. Trpg's will always take longer than films and such, and it's part of their charm. Choices matter, and good players that love the game make it instantly fun, even if they take forever to do stuff (also, just use group initiative with players being able to act at the same time, it's simpler, more tactical and allows creativity)

All I'm saying is, if my players ever again take 2-3 hours to decide a plan to get past a single CR3 assassin vine over a small bridge when they are a 5 man CL2 Gestalt party... I'm going to have a manticore chase them over that bridge. But yes I usually like when the players come up with stuff.

The combat part where you come into a tavern and suddenly a Troll appears? That's sort of like the adventure i partake in "The Yawning Portal". Also my DMs does the 'Knowing your enemies AC' just to speed the combat quicker. And i'm okay with it.

Try Dungeon World No initiative, no turns just the player describe what they want to achieve, they roll to determine if its success, partial success or failure. Then you narrate what happens.

My main thought during this whole video: Does Runesmith even want to be playing D&D? lol

In terms of initiatove, something cool that I've seen are the currebtly known rules for Bunkers and Badasses (yes, based on the Borderlands DLC. Roll with me). Basically, enemies don't get initiative rolls. Players do, but enemies and npcs appear to have their initiative 'roll' printed on the statblock.

I have a bit of a solution for the whole "combat having too many actors" thing. So, essentially, if they're all similar enemies, like, same attack power, race, AC, etc. You can just combine them into a horde of enemies. There's still all 50 goblins you wanted to attack the party, but now you can control them as one being, making the fight much easier to manage! It only has one initiative instead of 50, and when it's damaged, you can describe how, instead of stabbing someone making them bleed, you cut three of the goblin's heads off!

XP to level 3 absolutely obliterates Runesmith with FaCtS AnD LoGiC!

Just Yesterday. There was a vitrine on a base with a magic item within my players wanted. They successfully found and disabled one alarm and a trap securing those goodies. This took maybe 2 minutes including rolling. And then they had spend over 10min in discussing how to remove the vitrine. Should we push it...should we lift it...should we just smash it...can we remove the base and let the vitrine float. It was just hilarious. It was fun and just suited the people I played with. Besides that, both have a point. There is a fine balance to be found between complexity and automation and every group should find the optimal rules in achieving this. For me it worked perfectly to just talk with the people I play with about issues I have, see if they share it and then we try stuff to fix it and quite often we go back to normal.

hey, Congratulations on the wedding dude. now that being said: whoa there bud, retract the claws :P haha. seriously solid rebuttal....now I got to see his video in full

One of my favourite sessions ever was just a debate on why we should pay a group of mercenaries we were hiring more than a living wage. Super fun.

I just recently discovered this channel and I absolutely love it. Question - is Logan still part of XPtL3 band, or did something happened between them two?

This was way more savage than I expected it to be 😅 But wow congrats on tying the knot dude, that's great! You looked real sharp in that suit too!

i horribly failed a grapple check while playing a goblin after punching an orc in the nuts. "you caress his groin as you punch him. It adds insult to injury. He makes a morale save."

While I generally agree that your approach with Ready and Help exist - Ready is a very punishing mechanic. It's not like the old "delay" from systems of yesteryear Ready means that Martial Characters lose their extra attacks, can't move, etc. It also means that spellcasters can't concentrate on any other spells. All in all - ready is a bad compromise version of "Delay"

It just sounds like he wants to play a video game

I'm wondering about the whole combo stuff, what if you had your players pass note cards about what they're planning to do so as to not disturb whoever's turn it was (doesn't have to be a big plan, just write 'fastball special' or 'flanking takedown') then when it's the turn of whoever's going first in the combo, they hold their full turn till it's that of the second person in the combo, and they both act at the same time provided the DM is aware of what they mean by 'fastball special' etc and they're within enough range of each other to do it?

>Me who has combats where I have 10 different enemy stablocks, usually only 2 or 3 similar enemies. I have been trying a system for players rolling initiative at the very start of the campaign and that does as I put initiatives for all enemies before they appear, and I also have new enemies appear during combat and/or have summons which means not every one of my MANY statblocks are active at once. I’ve only been improving in my implementations of large combats where the players are skirmishing against large pools of intelligent enemies and everyone really loves it… for MY group. I can see why someone would hate that or just be so bored by it but if it works for my campaign and players then ye it fun.

Hmm is this a new rant category that use Knowledge, Experience, Nice Attitude and Friendly Approach? What a great thing in my opinion, we can see both sides of the coin and still can relate

Man.... I was thinking there was going to be a pinned comment from runesmith saying “Different strokes for different folks.” But it never happened...... much sad

It really helps as a DM to do two things.... first spend plenty of time not only explaining the setting in general terms, but giving SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL, knowledge of the world to each player. 2nd. Keep providing this individualized knowledge and make clear when just one player knows this thing. They get to choose to share it with the party or not and how they shape the interaction. It also reminds your players they can ask these kinds of questions to the DM about what their character might know or think or suspect and where it resolves to an X factor, roll di if you as the DM can offer some information that enriches the game. Reward players who are being creative in asking the right kinds of questions that push the plot forward. Also, reward them in other ways, extra XP, magical items, etc.

Congrats on the marriage man! Also I kinda see Logan's suggestions for easing new players into D and D. Okay the predetermined initiative and knowing AC automatically. Maybe trying to move the story along in some circumstances. After that idk maybe slowly add things into the regular gameplay until it's a regular D and D game.

He says they're not actually enemies, but if you look super closely at certain frames you can actually spot them having occasional fights in the background.

If anyone has played a game of Shadowrun (at least in my experience), in the game you talk and argue with each other for about 1-2 sessions before the mission takes place as more and more information comes from everyone before you finalize a plan that never goes the way you want.