Get back on the horse Nate. This place is rife with 'secondary compounds' and these are: 1) all plants make them and 2) none of them serve a function within the plant in which they come from; they are not a part of that plants' reproduction, feeding, structural support, they really serve no function at all within the plant from which they come and yet plants make them anyway. If you drove a bicycle for the first time and quit riding bikes ever again because you fell down you would be missing out on refining the energy-->biology control apparatus that you were born with within that body that you now reside so it just seems mandatory, to me, that everyone should learn to ride a bicycle. :)
Joe Rogan called it "Going to the God Room" and these myriad of "hallucinogens" which exist in this living world, like many other things in a completely pan psychic universe, will ultimately shed some light on how much energy is required to move "x" amount of distance. (a bicycle is the most efficient machine Human Beings have ever created) :) :) :)
Nescesary for our surfival,delayed reaction.We can train individuel.I always like saying something random like marshmellowmeltdown as I have a brainfog😊
I've listened to a number of podcasts with Daniel and I hesitated to listen to this one as, well, I figured that, however much I really respect his message, I knew what he was going to say. So, why bother. But, once again, as per Nate's observation, the conversation was completely unexpected. I particularly loved Daniel's description of how the heart, the mind and the will have to interact in order to address not just today's ills but our own. All I wish is that a WHOLE lot more people were listening.
totally agree, Daniel has perceived another way of describing the threefold nature of humanity, hopefully he touches on true cost economics in the next conversation
100% Meanwhile I’m writing a paper with 3 others that is a proposal for a self governing framework for collectively creating the 3rd Attractor Daniel positions as the desired outcome.
I've listened to this episode twice and I have a few thoughts on this: a) Nate, it's incredible that you're bringing such vibrant, exciting, exhilarating conversations to life. The internet is a massive place, but I'm consistently blown away by the profundity of conversations I hear on your podcast in this little corner of it. Seriously grateful for that. b) Daniel's response to the influx of messages you get with regards to doom and despair was such an incredible response. For a long time, I felt similarly to many of them and deferred to a state of nihilism that really just made me feel hopeless. It took a lot of reflection to eventually realize that what I was actually looking for is an excuse to not take responsibility and embrace the future - uncertainties and all. In saying that, this conversation really spoke to my heart and reassured me that it's okay to embrace the "not knowing". Seriously grateful for that too.
I cannot begin to wrap my head around the breadth of knowledge, wisdom, honesty and authenticity that Daniel exudes. He brings the brightest light from the darkest place.
The look on Nate’s face when Daniel said he’d started thinking about this stuff from 12-15 was priceless. Deep insights in this conversation, I learn something new each time.
I bursted into tears at least a couple of times, how wonderful to be so eloquent and humble when educating fellow humans about the sacredness of life and how to feel and protect it at every level.
Maybe the most sensitive (is that the right word?) I've seen Daniel. I loved the expansion of the marshmellow test, plus I especially love hearing about Daniel's past.
Thank you, both, for what you do. Daniel is so articulate in speaking what my heart-mind knows. Like Nate, I have matured more slowly AND I'm grateful for awareness, now. I have been practicing and training to walk alongside and hold space for those who will need companionship through the discrete phase shifts that are coming. Not knowing, not being attached to outcomes, living post-tragic as a liminal space mid-wife, end-of-life (or end of life as we know it) doula/spiritual counselor is my work. Thank you for giving language to concepts and felt experiences. My work is in meeting people where they are, while pointing beyond the naive and tragic places, serving the continuation of life as best I can. 👍🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
you are a blessing! I am helping my mother through her phase shift as well...and most of it all is to receive her...to help her love herself, help her see herself like her beloved did, that just passed away...he loved her with such a pure heart and saw her light like she couldn't. Thank you for your presence and companionship to those in need.
Wonderful conversation. bodhisattva Daniel and interlocutor Nate, great work! As Thic Nat Han said, the next savior won't be an individual but a community
I loved this. Both Nate and Daniel are the best. Daniel blows my mind and I love hearing about his past and like Nate said, just having someone who understands these things "buoys" me and feels good, a glimmer of hope. I loved how Nate just rolled with the direction it was flowing and I loved the palpable emotion that was felt with two people talking about something they care deeply about. Thank you both!
I love the way how this conversation dynamically and organically evolved. Nothing like a unexpected detour with pleasant surprises. Looking forward to the next one! 🙏
Ok. That was amazing. We are so fortunate that Nate has such intellectually interesting friends who are willing to share with us. That urge us to defer the instant and pre-canned (maybe manipulated) narrative in order to get a deeper sensemaking from personally exploring the concepts and inputs around us. To refrain from immediately eating the first marshmallow in order to also gain the second one as a reward for our patience and diligence. And to embrace uncertainty in our analysis. As with the brilliant metaphor of observing an embryo inside and egg as it develops and assuming that it is certain to inevitably reach a point of exhausted resources and terminal waste as we extrapolate that situation forward. Not knowing that the developing creature inside will eventually develop a beak that allows it to break out.
They are both gifts indeed. However, what I see in their conversation doesn’t feel right to me. Nate seems to be submissive like a fan boy (the mere amount of times he says “my friend“ makes me uncomfortable; and even worse: 52:50). Daniel on the other hand seems to give Nate an indirect coaching - just watch from 49:00 which culminates in his comment about spiritual bypassing which seems very much fitting to what Nate says before, but Daniel is hiding that he is talking about Nate. Just my impression - perhaps I missing something here.
Yay! Ok, I'll be sitting right here, waiting for you guys to come back and illuminate more of the geography and ecology of the landscape. 🙂 Just kidding! I'll be planting my fall garden, riding my bike, running trails, engaging in conversation with my family and neighbors, and lots of other adventures. But. I'll meet y'all back here!
“The bird fights its way out of the egg. The egg is the world. Who would be born must first destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas.” - Hermann Hesse, Demian I read this book about 20 years ago in college, at it was completely life-changing for me at that point in my life. This particular quotation has meant different things to me at different times in my life since then, and now, 20 years later, I am tearing up hearing Daniel’s response to despair, existential crisis response and “certainty”. That quotation has once again shifted and gained additional meaning to me, again at I time where I needed it most. I have been following this series since episode 1, and when I hit play on this one, I was expecting another very interesting, highly intellectual conversation. While it was also those things, this was a spiritual journey. Nate, when I was in my young 20s, I was also very influenced by “Ishmael” and other books by Daniel Quinn. Like many of his readers, I was left wondering what to “do” with this information. Your work is the best stuff I’ve heard since “Beyond Civilization” and brings that conversation to the 21st century and this decade. Thank you!
Another excellent dicussion with Hagens and Schmachtenberger! I get two marshmallows! Thank you both so much for spreading the word about the Polycrisis and working towards a solution. 🙂
So fitting that Nate said this episode was like an everlasting marshmallow. So deep and profound. Beautiful, humbling, awe inspiring. Made me feel fully human.
Mind, will and heart look forward to the next talk. It seems the current structures are based on narcissism and quick dopamine fixes, look forward to hearing about alternatives. One thing for certain it is going to be uncertain.
I listen to all of your conversations with Daniel Schmachtenberger, but this is perhaps the most beautiful and, for me the most helpful. I usually don’t bother to comment, just give a thumbs up or down, but S’s way of framing uncertainty (a feeling I struggle with) was exactly the support/validation I needed. Please continue to have regular conversations with him. I understand I can listen to him elsewhere, but you play off each other well, and listening to you together is enjoyable and valuable.
The pods in this series are amazing - each impossibly more inspiring than the previous one! Very grateful for you two and the work you are doing. You give this 63 yr. old woman hope! ❤
Wow THIS! "It's harder to say I acutally don't know, so I'm obligated to work on it the best I can still not knowing" This is a real gem here. This is where I find hope in the face of imenent demise. What a privilege to here this wisdom of how do we sit with the paradox of the fragility of life and the beauty at the same time. Also, the description of the 3 treasures of Will, Heart and Mind is profound and I can start to see his congruency with Taoist understanding, which I'm going to assume is intentional and not coincidence.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2540">42:20</a>: holy shit. Once again you’re blowing my mind. Daniel, you just made it so clear to me why I am the way I am. I always wonder why I care so much more than so many of the people I know seem to. When I was nine years old my aunt and my mom took me and my cousins on a trip across the country in an RV. We stopped at all of the major brown signs… Historical monuments, national parks, national monuments, battle grounds, all of the great lakes, and national forests. At nine years old I stood at the rim of the Grand Canyon with my mouth hanging open. I hiked Bryce Canyon. I went hiking on the first day of summer in Bermuda shorts and a tank top with snow boots on because we were at glacier national Park and there was 2 feet of snow on the ground but it was 80°. I spent an entire summer in complete awe and wonder at the beauty of this country and this world. What you say here about that being the birthplace of caring about all of this. You really did, you just blew my mind. Thank you.
@Greg Gardiner My immediate thought is that you are probably being sarcastic (given the use of all caps and no commas).😅 But if you are really interested in hearing my thoughts: I assume you are referring to 42:18, where Daniel mentions “deep time in nature” (which he finds to be particularly valuable), fasting, meditation, breath work, and psychedelics (which he advised some caution towards). I think these are all practices that reduce the “internal dialogue”, aka the “monkey mind” (I could be wrong, but I think these is some research to show that, in neurophysiological terms, that might correspond to reduced activation in the default-mode network), and, based on accounts by people who engage in these practices, they result in what feels like a different state of consciousness (one that somehow feels calmer, clearer, less fearful, more engaged with the senses and feelings, more empathetic, more “connected”, “deeper”, “more real”). Daniel also said that “you can’t just get the cognitive models across”. This is very much in line with 20th century philosophy (see for example Merleau-Ponty’s work, or Wittgenstein’s lion) and the modern embodied cognition framework, which has been gaining in popularity in cognitive science since the 80’s. In a very short and overly-simplified manner: there is information (“scientists say that exercise is good for you and I trust scientists”), then there is theoretical understanding (“I’ve studied physiology and sports science and I understand the mechanisms and the effects of exercise on the human heart, metabolism, brain function, etc.”), and then there is embodied knowledge (“I have clear, first-person, experiential knowledge of how different my body, my emotional state, my energy levels, and my clarity of thought are/feel when I exercise regularly vs when I don’t). I think Information and theoretical understanding tend to have very limited motivational force, whereas embodied knowledge can be transformational (but it cannot be “taught”, it requires first-person experience). 🙂
Thankyou both so very much My heart just bursts with hope knowing your alive in this beautiful world The interconnectedness is key Love the everlasting marshmellow analogy!+ your spontaneous ability to flow into concept s + ultmately towards solutions... From a very young age talk of too many people always turned into a lump inside me Now im beginning to realise the more people that come to understand the sacredness of all life the faster true effective change will unfold for all Conciously
Congrats to Nate for producing an excellent podcast. I’ve listened to pretty much everything Nate has done over the last 10 years and this may be his deepest discussion yet about our overshoot predicament. I’ve already listened to it twice and will need another couple listens to fully process but I would say if you are a depressed doomer looking for perspective and a possible path to being less depressed, or maybe even hopeful, then this might be the right medicine. Looking forward to part 4 when they intend to discuss specifics on what an aware person can to to make the future less bad, or maybe even help create a phase change for a path to a good future. This old doomer still suspects thermodynamics and genetic denial will prevail but I remain open minded to a better path.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1350">22:30</a>, Daniel makes the point of really know what you're dealing with before you give automatic support for someone's idiom is so very important and yet hard to control for with the continuous inundation of our sightscape. To be able to sensemake reasonably civic engagement with your environment is necessary. It's almost 47 minutes, flow state can be reached working physically. I keep going back to Daniel's idea of pods, maybe it's a little day of the triffids, we have these devices that allow for instantaneous communication but without a physical engagement on the community level we're pissing in the wind. My city representative has over 100,000 thousand constituents, how can they possibly listen to that many people without meeting at the skydome once a month? I myself might have met a thousand people in the area, a couple of hundred to say hi, know less than that, and I'm pretty gregarious. Been here over 10 years. Getting a flier for the transit construction sends out a local message, but it won't reach the entire community, because of it's size. That's just municipal government, there needs to be communal involvement without any thinking you're cultish, or communistic. It will be a huge undertaking in such a short time window. Understanding where we have to go, means that you have to realize where you are now. Great discussion Daniel and Nate, it's stretching some limits but it is coherent.
theres a kind of pre-tragic optimism that people will have where they have ideals that have not yet been shattered on the reality of the world, we call naivete. And then theres the encountering the tragedy of the world and having the ideals shattered and there's a cynicism that can emerge there. And then there's a post tragic place that is committed to being in service to the sacredness of life wether you can succeed or not, its still the right way live, the right hill to die on. And it doesn't need the certainty of success to have it be the right sacred thing to be living that way. And then that also realizes that there is a false certainty of the tragic place, just like there is a false certainty in the naive place, and the universe is much bigger than both of those false certainties. And so then it says that cognizant of all the tragedy and cognizant of all the reason to be cynical, AND holding that, we're still gonna look for solutions, and still also operate with the sacredness of life at the center." Daniel
Thank you Nate and Daniel for a beautiful and brilliant conversation, and for sharing your friendship with us. Regarding the conditioned need for certainty, maybe we need to cultivate Keat's 'negative capability' - "when man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason...."
A couple moments I stopped on my walk while listening and locked in to what Daniel was saying. Felt like time stopped. My heart and my mind have been struggling recently and I needed this reminder. To be brave enough to die on the right hill. Thank you and much love
Lovely to hear my two favorite podcasters working together to find ways to help the natural world. I live in a thriving forest with all manor of critters and cannot imagine life without wildlife so thank you both for all your efforts.
the segment titles are slightly off i love both of you so much thank you being voices of clarity and minds that can present such necessary info in a digestable way
Love you two and the cattle truck story sums up how I feel too in a nutshell. I hope many others feel the same way too. Couldn’t have put it better myself!
Greetings from Finland! First of all, thank you - both of you. This was one of the most beautiful exchanges I've witnessed on these topics. Daniel's wisdom, clarity and empathy is of course beyond parallel, but it only shines clear here because of Nate's knowledge, openness, integrity and amazing passion for expanding the vision on co-creating a better future. I feel so grateful for listening to this series. This talk especially had a timeless sense to it, a certain flow of something intimate and pure, beautiful and poetic, yet all the while rooted in concrete mundane action (within and outside). Definitely a series I feel like anyone and everyone interested in a New Path should familiarize themselves with. Also, I don't know if you are acquainted with the man's life work, but in so many places I wanted to shout out "Dr. Iain McGilchrist!". I feel like McGilchrist's work on the hemispheres and their affect on the human (especially modern) condition holds such enormous explanatory power on the "how did we get heres" as well as the "what are the fundamentals of how to move forwards". I truly, truly hope you guys will cooperate in some way. And if not, become aware of each other's work - miles apart in content, but absolutely interwoven in intent. In any case, from a lowly teacher, youth worker and Community Educator here in the far North, I salute and thank you. Massive respect and the best of 2023 to you both - as well as the global community of awakening meaning-makers
things that are connecting in my mind right now is... D.C. Schindler's work on the catholicity of reason: a view from wholeness. I think Vervaeke is working on this too. We need to transform individual minds to take upon a supra-individual pov, get them out of ego-centrism. Out of a fragmented pluralism into something more integrated and whole.
It feels good to meet, even on youtube, 2 other humans who are aware of the existential risks while meeting as post tragic optimists. I realized somewhat recently, that given the inherent uncertainty of historical trajectories, that we cannot be certain that only ruin awaits us. It certainly looks bad, and may well be that ruin awaits us, but regardless, I will go down appreciating life and readying myself in case a moment arises that my personal action can make a difference. Many thanks both of you.
I have re listened to so much of this phenomenal interchange. Thank you both for sharing your views. Such immaculate clarity from Schmachtenberger for so many of the most difficult seeming elements of the global picture. I will share and share and share.
Loved it, thank you! just keep going, ep 5, 6, 7… however many. I’ve watched nearly all of Daniel’s videos on youtube and these convos with Nate are all among my faves
”Our willingness to sit in uncertainty” and ”Our desire to be effective” and the ernestness and quality in these… ❤ This must be where the work starts in my mind. Without it it is likely the effort will derail.
I am thankful to have been the 1000th like on this podcast. Always informative and, in their own honest, tear down sort of way, inspiring. Much appreciation, Nate and Daniel.
Great discussion on a different way of thinking and being from a deeper interconnected understanding and place of delayed gratification as related by the 2 Marshmallow reward. In summary: Not against 'bad guys', but for the thriving of life Not cynically sure of doom or optimistically sure of survival, but from a place that has been in each and understands them but also admits what we don't know and that there are things we don't know we don't know, which may include potential solutions.. Also recognizing we have no fundamental security. Life is fragile and that is okay, and when you are present with that you can appreciate the sacredness and interconnectedness of all life
2 thoughts come to mind.1/ of course even if our experience of separation is an illusion , it has a function . 2/ No one , no matter the amount of knowledge, can pretend to know the limitation of reality. Thanks for your work.
Brilliant thank you! This felt like a pivotal interview because you were willing to abandon your agenda, Nate. In doing that you actually opened the door for all those coference colleagues you mentioned early on who refuse to release theirs. As I change, all changes with me. You demonstrate that! And to witness it is inspiring. 3 marshmellows. Respect!
So immensely grateful for this inspiring dialogue! It touches all the relevant points. So great to feel an immediate and deep connection to both of you, so eloquently, wise and compassionate communicated experiences, insights and concerns. And at the same time humble and open to the fact that there might be unknown things we now know nothing about. Reaching a still point where we become aware of the fragility and sacredness of life, and moving on from there, to the best of our abilities. Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
Thank you for sharing your honest and humble dialogue. It is helping me greatly in my journey and I believe your interviews in this medium are fostering the growth of a community that can help nuture the evolution and the growth of an improved level of sensemaking that can help us emerge into a new level of being.
Thank you both for your time, your knowledge and your deep connection to everything meaningful. I wish I was exposed to non-duality in my early life, although I always felt a deep connection to nature and naturally eating healthful food. I didn’t have the language or thought process to express that feeling of connection. The last 15 years learning from many various teachers (such as yourselves) has completely changed my reality. I am also an optimist by nature but I also acknowledge and accept the shadows of our humaneness.
Great conversation!! One suggestion for your next episode would be discussing the role of Power in the broader Ecology and Energy situation. I disagree with Nate that powerful forces in our society are energy/materials blind... in my opinion, they are fully aware of the role of all of them at the foundation of our civilization. They use their power to hide its fundamental role and, at the same time, they keep creating new narratives to entertain/worry/scare ourselves (climate change, warfare, social media, new democracy, etc)
Russel Brand's podcast has been very good in that spooky territory, especially this year with all of the insanity going on in the world...which looks like it's not just 'random'...the more there is, the more contrived/deliberate it appears to be. Brand is like a progressive 'Alex-Jones-lite' lately and it's great.
This went straight to my heart. Im allways hopefull about mankind after listening Daniels insights, knowledge and wisdom. Nate build up so fantastic information egosystem. Thanks for the discussion Nate and Daniel. This serie is pinnacle. Hope to listening part 4 at some point.
Found Daniel and his content today. I scrolled and found a PC of him talking with Nate. I have to say Nate that so far as I've found you and your guests do the best job of tying all the various fields and siloed problems together and discussing them and solutions under 1ne ecoligical umbrella. Well done and thanks a lot!
This was an excellent conversation. You've given me some excellent food for thought on these subjects, which so often fill me up with too much hopelessness. Perhaps there are some phase shifts that I haven't considered or haven't contemplated.
I have shared Numerous podcasts with a few most important situations that relates to our country Aotearoa New Zealand Degrowth Thank you Endearly All 🌏🕊
This really IS a one hour and 17 minute marshmallow - but one packed with fibre and nutrients, has low GI, makes you want to delay gratification indefinitely and lingers on the palate with a complexity of flavour that really does blow the mind. Absolutely superb (I just binged all three eps in order). My mind is now mush but I'm mellow. I look forward to the next one...and the one after that...and... Deepest thanks. Talk about food for thought
Wait - factory farms. What can we do? It’s cruel and insane. It’s the animals I worry about because they didn’t cause this destruction, they are not cruel, and have a lot to teach us to take us back to source. We need a miracle human mind shift into love and kindness, beauty of nature and back to our right brain, soul.
i agree with Daniel. Connectivness with the universe and feeling that deeply is probably the only way humans will change our destruction of ourselves and the world that provides all we need to exist.
