I can confirm that is very uncommon to be married before your 30's, but also because Italians tend to have very long "engagements" (non so se esista una parola inglese che spieghi i lunghi fidanzamenti in italia, se qualcuno la conosce me lo scrive?); one thing that always shock me is to read about people in other countries that marry after 1-2 years of relationship, it surprise me every time! At the end of the day it's just a cultural thing, we tend to marry later also because you are hardly considered an adult till your 30's (it's difficult to be taken seriously in a lot of areas like for mortgage application etc)
"Engagement" is more for when you've already popped the question, so the wedding is soon to come 😊 I'd say that maybe just "relationship" could work just as fine?🤔
When I see videos of youtubers in their early twenties getting married I'm like "wtf?". They're mostly religious Americans, but also many progressive Americans seem to be obsessed with the idea of marriage. It's almost like Americans feel that marriage is a "must", something they have to do otherwise their life cannot be considered successful. Ykwim? Go to college, find a job, find a partner, get married, get a house. And usually the step after that is to have a child. Italians are a lot more laid back and, imo, spontaneous. Many couples never marry and, if they want, just have children out of wedlock. I'm not particularly interested in marriage and I'd never consider getting married in my 20s. When you said 25 I almost laughed. At 25 I still felt like a child! I agree more with Enrico, 30 years old is the youngest I'd consider getting married. But I'll most likely never get married and just build a family with my partner anyway (like many people in my family). I think one of the reasons is that Italians feel a lot less pressure about leaving their family home. You usually only do that to study OR when you're financially stable and have enough savings for emergencies on your own. That usually doesn't happen in your 20s. And once someone is financially comfortable enough to move out, marriage isn't on the list of priorities because it's seen as unnecessary. Cohabitating with your partner seems like the best thing ever and is more than enough. Only after years of being and living together you start talking about marriage (because being legally tied does have its benefits when it comes to bureaucracy). Americans leave their family home when they turn 18 to go to college, often in another State miles away from their family. The majority get loans to pay for tuition, meaning that most of them - teenagers! - start their adult lives with thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. After they graduate and move out of their dorm or shared flat, they have to find a job, most likely move away again, find a new apartment, pay exorbitant rents. Oh, and let's not forget about health insurance and car insurance since you need a car for everything 🤕 I can only imagine how daunting that is. Sharing the financial burden with someone seems logical, so maybe that's why they get married so young? My brother, Italian born and raised, followed the American modus operandi: left home at 18 to go to university in another city, then moved around Europe to further his education and for work. But he never had any debt. Now he's making really good money and enjoying life with his long term girlfriend in the UK (she has a similar story to his). They are less interested in marriage than I am, and so are all of their friends (and mine as well)! I truly wonder if Americans would change their perspective about marriage and become more laid back if their lives weren't dominated by financial hardship. And of course if the US were a less religious country. Growing up I always thought that Italy wasn't secular enough... but once I started reading about the US and educating myself I was shook! We are neighbors to the Vatican but I feel like Americans are a lot more religious than Italians. Or maybe they're just "louder" about it? Combine this with financial hardships, and marriage becomes part of the American culture, and spreads in secular circles as well. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that TEENAGERS are *expected* to get indebted to a bank in order to afford an education. If they don't do it and go to community colleges, trade schools, etc. they are seen as less than. They start their adult life with debt on their shoulders. I'm not saying that Italy is perfect (or even good to be quite honest...) but some of the things I hear about the US leave me gobsmacked.
Long response coming They’re cultural differences and that’s why you’re gobsmacked :) As someone who left America a decade ago and still holds on to some American values I think this one is way more nuanced than the usual arguments-- America's flawed social system and seemingly uber religious obsession. Religion plays a big role in the US and while initially I would agree that Americans are ‘more religious’ then I remember that every day Italian public news outlet, RAI, actually gives a platform to the Pope’s opinions and they actually seem to hold a certain level of weight- That was and still is shocking to me. I agree that Americans are louder when it comes to religion but if I had to think of why I’d say it's because religion has always been a slippery slope in Europe and some of your biggest and longest wars had religious undertones (100 years war, 30 years war, World War II, more recently the war in Bosnia are just a few major ones that come to mind before and after the establishment of the US) so nowadays, unless you are Christian in a place like Italy where christianity is not only very visibile but also the only religion given space to exist e.g churches everywhere and mosques are basically outlawed, crosses in every public office, laws with religious exemptions like abortion etc, I wouldn’t be very vocal about my non-christian religion. I see this changing slowly though, and the gradual change has brought about a very loud backlash from the political right. Meanwhile in the US, the case is different. Aside from more recent wars in the middle east, which indeed have had their impact, religion wasn’t AS slippery of a slope. We didn’t have wars where religion was such a decisive factor, especially not on our own soil, and I think the effect of this is that all religions in the US are very loud with Christianity more visible because it is the majority. Despite this, we study all religions and their holidays in school, we have politicians from all religions backgrounds, visibly in office, all three major religions are very present in our media and even the non major and more fringe ones too. The other side of this coin is that if you are not religious you tone that down a bit out of fear of being disrespectful, or worse, penalised by the religious majority around you. Given that the few available numbers don’t differ much between Italy and US when it comes to believers and non-believers I don’t think religion is a decisive factor in why people get married or not, I think it is almost exclusively socio-economic. American teens are absolutely saddled with debt from an early age and it’s a travesty but we’re not the only society that expects people to grow up at 18. In Europe, the average age for students to leave home is 25 but in some countries like Sweden the age is as low as 19. I'll add that I think this divergence has a lot to do with the structure of university, remember most American students live at university…which is a very different than being expected to ACTUALLY fend for yourself at 18. I’m sure the numbers for people who don’t go to college in the US are very different, and I think that the fact that less Americans are going to college will mean more people will stay home longer… because you leave home to go to college in America and even then college is a very controlled home away from home enviornment anyways paid for by someone else/a future you. Anyways, I don’t think that expecting people to at least start the process of adulting and being alone at 18 is so bad. It takes a long time to ‘get it’ but you need to! It’s only when you’re out in the real world that you truly learn how to survive, foster some sort of independence and, this is a big one for me, learn the concept of responsibility especially for one’s own decisions and actions. I think starting this process at 30 is too late, and while I suppose we can draw some sort of middle ground at 25, I must personally say I feel far more fulfilled as someone in my late 20s with my life relatively ‘together’ than I think most people in their early 30s who are still working things out feel. That’s my perception from outside. And yes marriage is very closely tied to the perception adulthood in the states because it is-the world is one where marriage creates a huge difference in the eyes of the law and has very ‘adult’ or serious benefits and implications. Immagine your partner needing to leave their country for one reason or another maybe they have better economic opportunities somewhere else but you can’t follow them because… you’re not married and your citizenship doesn't allow you the same mobility as them. Immagine not being able to have kids for one reason or another but you can’t adopt because that’s a privilege mostly reserved for heterosexual married couples especially in Italy. Immagine dying, maybe without having kids and all your stuff automatically going to your family and not your partner because that again is dictated by marriage status. These are just a few quick examples but the list is endless. There’s a lot of ignorance around how built in marriage is in our legal systems in Italy and the result isn’t great, the result is people not knowing the difference between a marriage and a civil union -leaving a whole section of society, namely non heterosexual couples to live with a fraction of their rights. I think the main difference between Italians who get married super late/not at all and Americans who get married super early, for me, are these: 1. Marriage is a milestone and Americans love a good milestone because how else do you measure ‘progress.’ Yes, me too, I feel like a 10 year or indefinite courtship with nothing tangible to show for it is lacking something, not to say that it is but that’s how I’d personally feel for me, thanks to conditioning. I think in order to make a lot of adult decisions with regards to financial planning and future opportunity marriage is fundamental and as long as the world gets more mobile and multicultural, without changing laws and constitutions this will become a very big issue. 2. In the US, a break up or divorce is not seen as the end of the world or even necessarily the end of a relationship as it’s seen in other places. It’s also relatively easy to do and has been around for like… ever. This coupled with the fact that in the US all different forms of family units and love are being discussed brings about again, a whole different meaning to the concept of what marriage is… it means something different for every individual person. Again, not saying this is right or wrong but this is a difference. 3. On the other hand and I talk more about this in my series, look at Italian history: Divorce became legal in Italy in the mid 70s and it’s very hard to get one. The average age in Italy is 47 years old and divorce became legal in Italy 47 years ago. Most Italians alive today (so 47 and up) grew up in married families where marriage was based on an extremely patriarchal, largely fascist model that was illegal to break free from. The result of the extremely patriarchal and fascist family model unsurprisingly led to in the best case inequality and in the worst case straight up violence being seen as the norm and I repeat very difficult to escape from. It shouldn’t be surprising then the shift and the most Italians who grew up in a reality like that would raise their kids into and create a society where marriage is viewed differently… key word being different! In conclusion, though culture is predicated by the past, it’s very fluid and what we see today probably won’t be the standard ineither place for a myriad of reasons in the near future. This was a good thought exercise for me, thank you for stimulating it!
I didn't read the whole comment, cuz I find this non-sense extremely repelling and I wouldn't want to lose some of my neurons just by reading it. Also I don't have time to waste on this garbage anyway! But I wanted to respond to it just to express my pity for you and especially for your father. No man deserves a daughter like you! But it's his fault I guess.
Brit here, married to an Italian and living in Veneto, and all this is pretty spot on! Italians seem to get married later but have more traditional views at the same time. I must admit I do notice a difference in attitudes between the millennial men and the gen Z men I know, but have also noticed the north-south divide in attitudes to marriage and kids etc too.
Love this series! As an italian, I'm always shocked by how "fast" people marry each other in other countries, because yes it is true that in Italy before getting married there are usually years of engament or "convivenza". I think that there are some possible reasons for this "delay" that you did not touch upon in the video but could be interesting points to start a conversation: in Italy getting divorced is A STRUGGLE, so usually you want to be really sure of your partner before marrying them, and I think this and also the religious and cultural baggage of italians contribute at giving this perception of marriage being FOREVER and the ultimate and most important decision of your life. Anyway, you raised a truly interesting point on the paradox of children and marriage comments!! So true!
I'm italian/other and generation x. I've seen lots of my peers (european) be in long term relationships (10yrs+) without getting married...until I gave them the following perspective (ie after this they all got married). They all would say getting married is just a piece of paper. I would start off by saying that it is exactly that. If you are building a life together, enmeshing your life financially is unavoidable, but for planning a future you need the legal framework. That includes planning on what happens if you die, or end up on a respirator. If you are not married, all your partners property reverts to their next of kin (surviving partner has to deal with other persons relatives)...but the clincher was this - who knows you best in terms of a legal decision to be taken in a hospital, your partner or your parents? They all married within the year.
sì, è vero che noi italiani (forse anche europei in generale) ci sposiamo abbastanza tardi. ma gli americani al contrario si sposano molto molto presto (tanti nella fascia d'età 18-23). non a caso, se non erro, gli stati uniti hanno un altissimo livello di divorzi rispetto a tanti altri stati.
Hi Tia, I like this format a lot! As an Italian living in the US, I believe a big factor that pushes American to getting married young, is the health insurance coverage. Even though many employers will extend coverage to a domestic partner, getting married is for many, the only way to have access to healthcare
This is my first video of your Unpacked series and I like what I see, so I'll definitely have to give the rest of your previous videos a watch this weekend once the homework of the week is complete!
That's amazing. Is it a company policy or a law? There is a big difference between the two cases. I don't think we should leave these matters to the good will of some private companies
@@undomiel466 I think for women it's in law. But for men it's up to the company/sector I think...most men used to only get 2 weeks. I work for a university.
That would be ideal and should be a goal for any government. That will benefit women in their careers and also men that will be able to create a stronger bond with their kids
Loved this video and the topic of marriage. I've noticed it with italians- dating for 7-9 years, my friend has 3 kids with a woman, they've been together 15 years and they are not married and don't want to be. I'm in a 3-year relationship with an Italian, I'm Ukrainian myself, and compared to Ukrainian traditional values about a family and relationshios- to me Italian values seem much more western. In Ukraine most people marry in their 20s, even from 20-25 is considered a good age to settle. Usually, if someone marries at 30- its the second marriage, not first. Reason being probably because Ukrainians start to live separate from parents and start working as early as 18, so by 24-25 they already have a stable job and income, and can think about having kids. With my italian partner, I still can't come to terms with the fact that we're not even engaged after 3 years. In Ukraine this would be viewed as "he's not serious about you", whereas for Italians it's just this long dating phase which does mean you're serious, but you need time.
Can you do a video on the impact on dating apps to relationships? In America dating apps are leading to a record number of depressed singles because everyone is is constantly looking for better options instead of making it work with one person. I’m curious to see if the impact is similar in other countries
^^this! As an American who has lived in Milan 2+ years now, i find Italian men on Tinder absolutely horrifying. I would also love to see an episode about the italian culture vs american or international perspectives on dating apps
@@meredithvaughn5272 Really? I am trying to move here and figured dating would be better since Italian men are more transparent and definitely more refined
@@lg206 Dating apps are not as widely used in Italy and they are more of a last resort. Finding dates on tinder is seen as "scraping the bottom of the bucket", so this might be the reason for the "horrifying men" comment. Although it could be somewhat different in big cities like Milan
@@lg206 with datin here in Italy you might find your luck, but I would use apps as the last resort, cause the chances of finding someone who's a nice person and interested in a long term relationship is pretty low. I'd rely on a more classic approach
Italian moms are kind of brutalized IMHO, especially by the schools. I see themselves run ragged and then the teachers get really upset if the moms don't buy exactly the right set of pens or notebooks. They are kind of treated as though they are idiots. My wife always talks about how she knows she's about to be patronized when someone starts their sentence with drawn out "Signora..."
Hello Tia! I am finally coming to Milan in late March and wanted to reach out to see if you and Enrico would like to join Michael and I for dinner. We are planning to move to Italy and respect your insight. Please let me know. ❤
I know you haven't had kids in Italy, but I'd love if you did one of these on general women's health/giving birth in Italy vs the US. I know epidurals can be really hard to get in Italy and there are a lot of serious differences in how women's health is treated in the US vs Italy.
Love this series, love watching the evolution of your content. Da una ragagazza Americana che vive in Italia a una Donna Americana-Italiana. Bravissima Tia.
One of my colleagues got 2 week paid paternity leave. Some companies in the US are starting to do that. Women get 3 or 😅 weeks off. I can’t recall, it’s been a while for me. A lot depends on insurance and the employer
Francamente non ho nulla da aggiungere. Come sempre, analisi impeccabile. C'è davvero questo doppio standard di "sposarsi tardi" ma avere figli il più presto possibile. È stressante, economicamente insostenibile (almeno in Italia) e ti fa davvero passare la voglia di figliare lol. Gli stereotipi sono veri e concreti e rispecchiano i vari stereotipi e luoghi comuni basati sulle tradizioni nelle varie regioni in cui ti aspetteresti di trovarle (ad es., per l'appunto, le regioni del sud come Campania, Sicilia, ma non meno la Calabria o la Puglia). È una mentalità che è dura a morire, nonostante le generazioni passino e ci si aspetta che quelle giovani si distanzino da quelle precedenti.
Regarding maternity leave that's not entirely correct. Once the baby is born the mother can forego her maternity leave rights and pass them to the father. That's almost never done, but that's what the laws entitles to.
I can’t say I prefer this more polished - scripted - kind of video. Moreover the audio feels reverby and distant. Not trying to annoy you, just saying that previous videos sounded better, warmer.
It’s interesting. As a living in Italy italian, I wasn’t aware of a gap in the marriage age when comparing italian with other nationality people. I would be curious to ear again about this topic, even by bringing in an other perspective from a third or a fourth “culture”
The maternity leave it's not made to reinforce gender roles. Which parent does a baby need more, father or mother? Clearly the mother! Anyway, people are happy to stay at home and not have to go to work, so isn't this a priviledge women have that men don't?
It should ,because the child needs both mother and father,and how is it a benefit for a woman to stay at home when she will be behind the work force if anything happens to the husband? Do y'all even sit and think about the pros and cons of things? did the mother go to a sperm bank to get pregnant or did she get pregnant with the man?.
I married an Italian after a year, and much of that time we were in different countries. She is waayyyyy more conservative about sex/social/gender roles than me. I was raised in the 70's US to pretty much do everything my sisters did.... but I also had to do lawn work, snow shoveling, and wood splitting that they avoided. :( I find it actually uncomfortable when at an Italian dinner party that the women all help out while many of the men just sit on their asses.
It is interesting hear your point of view. Most of my friends are employed in "market" always on demand, especially now (doctors), and most of them have at least a child, if not two. I don't have that desire to become a mom, and I know that in italian society this is seen as strange, to put it lightly. LOL!
Are you sure that it is seen that way? Because Italy is one of the countries with the lowest birth rates in Europe, which in general has very low birth rates, so maybe that’s your perception but if we look at data I’m not sure if that’s true
@@talete7712 the feeling (which is just a feeling, don't know how valid it is) is that you will end up with just one child when you are 35-40 for whatever reason, but if you say you don't want kids the reaction is "OMG what are you saying, this is the biggest mistake of your life, change your mind before it is too late"
We need to be honest as women and be more realistic about the time span we have to work with for having children. By the age of 30 your production of eggs greatly decreases. In some women as low as 50%. In the USA if you get pregnant at the age of 35 or older it is treated by the medical establishment as a “geriatric pregnancy”. If you decide to wait freezing your eggs for in vitro infertalization becomes an option which can be very expensive. Yes you see in media, society women waiting to start a family but really is this a sound choice? I won’t even to into the autism, Down syndrome stats for women over 40.
Italian here. My partner and I have moved in together after 9 years, and marriage isn't even on the table 😂 Tbh though, I lived abroad for 3 years, so if I hadn't we would have moved in after 6 years. But still, marriage wouldn't be in sight in any case
@purplelove3666 judging other cultures much? I could be 70 and still not be married to him, but be his life partner and SO. My country recognises most of our rights as a de facto couple so until I need a contract to grant me more rights (mostly financial ones) I won't be wasting time on a wedding. Also, get a life
Yes, because of doctors conscientious objector, to get an abortion in some Italian regions like Molise and Sicily can be difficult but in USA abortions are now banned in 13 states. In 2023 women's rights seem to me more in danger in Texas than in Sicily...i know that's weird to say.
Traditional gender role enforcement example: I'm italian, born and raised in the North-East and fem presenting. In this house women can't say "bad words" because "it's not nice, they look dirty, females have to be clean". A few months ago my brother almost hit me when I dared to cuss while I was already being attacked during a discussion and there were swear words flying all over the place. I hate this place. :)
Non mi sarei mai sposata prima dei 25, ma dopo 12 anni di relazione a 28 anni sarebbe perfetto. Però è vero, sono prima partiti con la tiritera dei figli che dello sposarsi come se avessi una data di scadenza o non considerando che io li voglia o meno. È una faticaccia vivere da millennial le variazioni della società
Poca pazienza ??? ma che ca…come fai a sopportare le italiane senza la pazienza. Guarda se il vostro problema è che in Italia le italiane sono trattate male, ve le regaliamo, gli uomini italiani preferiscono le straniere ve lo siete mai chiesto il motivo ? ...forse quegli studi hanno qualche corto circuito interno. E' ovvio che l'aborto viene accettato con piu difficoltà, è un tema delicato e c'è bisogno di un maggiore accertamento nel applicarlo, altrimenti viene preso con troppa leggerezza, va al massimo migliorata la legge. Sul congedo di maternità diverso tra donna e uomo concordo, ma devi considerare anche la donna è quella che tiene in grembo il figlio e lo allatta , è inevitabilmente piu importante della figura maschile inizialmente, quindi non è che l'equità sta solo nel numero dei mesi e se non lo fai sei un retrograda, semplicemente uomini e donne sono diversi , cio non toglie che concordo con una minore diversificazione dei mesi, le si puo aggiungere agli uomini ad esempio. Il problema alla base io ho capito quale è, siccome oggi va di moda il politically correct, si crede davvero che nel mondo ci siano forme di razzismo diffuso o problemi culturali legati ad antiche tradizioni,…tutto questo lo dice la propaganda però e le lobby che girano intorno ad esse (e qui si aprirebbe un altro topic), che poi se fossimo cosi tradizionalisti o condizionati dalle istituzioni "che consideriamo avversarie" gli italiani si sposerebbero tutti presto e farebbero molti figli, ma a quanto pare come hai detto anche tu non è cosi e anzi in quello concordo l'economia gioca contro la maternità in Italia… Quindi per concludere bisogna restare con i piedi per terra e guardare le cose per quello che sono, porsi domande...e non ascoltare le teorie di tendenza, anzi ascoltarle si ma non prenderle subito per veritiere.
I disagree. Why would marriage be a relic of patriarchy? It really depends on how the couple lives it. In my experience, marriage does not change a relationship (assuming the couple already lives together). People get married for legal benefits or because they like the idea of marriage - that is linked to a somehow more mature/adult feeling in the relationship. That doesn't mean it is an expressiom of patriarchy. If anything, whatever romantic relationships dynamic is prone to be
@@undomiel466 I think Lorenzo is talking about the fact many women still think marriage is their ultimate goal and the biggest achievment in their life as a person, along with having kids. It's like saying if you're a woman and you're not married or don't have kids, you're seen as less of a woman. Unfortunately this is not that uncommon in Italy.
Marriage is how you make it, don't marry useless men and if you married one, divorce them asap instead staying in a marriage with a horrible man, if you don't want to get married,then don't deal with men all together ,that's unlawful to stay with a man who hasn't married. You
But i can eensure you 99% of men would really like to have longer paternity leaves. It is not that we do not like to stay with our kids but it is simply more expensive. We are simply forced to fin in our respective gender roles.
God made men and women different, so gender roles exist for a reason. It's God's plan, gender roles are God's will. Men ought to preside, protect and provide, and women ought to respect and serve men. Men are the leaders and women the followers. It's human nature, and it doesn't matter how hard they try, they can't change this!
Good,provide ,yes , will you will be ok with not knowing anything about your child because you have a woman to take care of your kids?, provide and protect,only two duties? Last time I checked some or a lot of men did more of destroying than protecting,so you are falling short on that, last time I checked ,women were also in the work force because they also have to provide for their family,so you might be falling short on that too ,God created us differently ,and we do have roles according to our gender, but lets not act as if back in the day women didn't work
