CORRECTIONS: - It turns out 20 locos were not scrapped by DB in 2010. There were twenty locos offered for disposal by DB but the list of these includes locomotives that were never scrapped or left DB - Apologies for the mispronunciation of 'Yeoman'.
This is fantastic news, and if 60014 works out to be successful with the CAT C-175 engine in that one. The Class 60's will be around us for a fair bit yet. I am still keeping my eye on 60014 as that will be the tell tale sign of what's to come.
@@roberttisdale4441 well, until I saw the original comment, I'd pronounce it incorrectly. Now, I'd pronounce it 'Yovil'. As one may be able to tell, I'm from the North so have never had to pronounce the western yeo names before
They were good when new, I worked on them from day one, camshaft issues, cylinder head valves and coolant leaks were the main issue. We had a good fleet at Canton, it went down hill when Canton closed so they could not get the tlc they deserved to work the UK's heaviest trains. Margam struggled to cope, EWS /DBC always favoured class 66's . If you do away with maintenance facilities , expect reliability to drop. DBC management were very poor and treat staff like shit. I did nearly 50 years in the industry and the DBC days were the worst, run by hatchet man Heller. You have to keep the customer happy, class 60's could not always do that. So that is the main reason the 66's are now used
It is a sad fact of accountancy, that maintenance doesn't make a profit. Modern accountants are programmed for short-term gain, and to fill their pockets; they know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. 'Re-engining' with Cat units to produce a workable fleet of 90+ is the best solution in my opinion as a time-served engineer.
@@nlo114 Personally I hope GBRF will take over operations at Toton. There is plenty of life left in the fit Class 60 locomotives and I think the CAT C-175 power units would have been more viable. GBRF, DC Rail and now Land Recovery see the value in these Class 60 locomotives and are looking at bringing more of them back onto the mainline. Colas sold their 10 to GBRF in favour of their Class 70 fleet which is fine. But when (and its more of a when than an if) the CAT engined Class 60's start entering service on the mainline. It wouldn't surprise me if we see GBRF expanding their pool of Class 60's and taking over contracts from Colas and DB. Also not to forget that Beacon Rail and Akiem owns the locomotives that GBRF and Colas uses mainly so the leasing companies pay for the maintenance and parts for their locomotives and I think if DB really wanted to save on these costs. They could have sold all the super 60's to Akiem/Beacon Rail and just leased them back from them. That would have been more logical and sensible in my opinion.
Its a shame the 60s have gone. They used to do the Westerleigh tanks regularly, and hauled up 29 wagons, with one Class 60. Now its hauled by double headed 66s, with only 21 wagons.
Would this be the same Class 60 having a member rebuilt as a hydrogen fuelled, steam generator test bed as a zero enissions loco? (Yes, it would. Early days peeps!)
To be honest with you on this subject. DB/EWS has wanted to shelve the Class 60 locomotives for a while and this was on the cards since around 2004. The real reason they kept them as long as they did is because of the Freightliner Class 70 being better equipped to deal with heavy trains and more powerful than the the 66. So DB decided to overhaul about 24 Class 60 locomotives that would match the Class 70 for tractive effort 😊. DB still has 5 in reserve though that are 60011, 60017, 60024, 60062 and 60074.
Thanks for the info! I did read that the locos got very close to being removed during the mid to late 2000s if I remember correctly so that makes sense. Did that mean the super 60 overhaul included the increasing of starting tractive effort for the class per chance? If so, is it known what the post-refirb starting figure is?
@@railquest From what I understand, they have a pulling force of 450kN from a standstill that makes these Class 60's 50kN under the Stadler Eurodual for traction as they are 500kN. More powerful than a Class 66 as they are rated to about 410-430kN which I think the 66/6's are the later that DB are using. As far as I know. What became the Super 60 programme was that each one was completely stripped down to the shell, the power unit was cleaned and port polished, overhauled bogies and improvements to the cabs etc. That makes the Class 60 nearly as powerful as the GE C44-9W for tractive effort. The Mirrlees power unit is rated to Euro 3 emissions hence why it wasn't replaced or modified to use Adblue or anything like that. Apart from adjustments to the injectors so that low sulphur diesel can be used without problems. This was the information I was given from an insider back in the 2010's. Although if DB are to use their 5 reserves in the future is yet unknown but Land Recovery UK have 12 of them for rebuild/reuse at some point. There is a possibility of these getting overhauled and rebuilt by EMD and the use of the Caterpillar C-175 power unit if 60014 at Longport is anything to go by. This could see a lot of the ex-DB Class 60's getting repurposed into other classes (Class 65, Class 71 maybe?) should 60014 be successful. There is also the DC Rail Class 60's at Loughborough that are possible comebacks with 60099 planned to reenter service later this year. But with the sale of all but 5 super 60's made by undisclosed buyers back in January/February, this could well change if DC Rail have bought some of those like 60092, 60091, 60100 etc. Also there is the Class 60 Preservation Group that I am a member of that is worthy of joining as they are looking to get one at least for starters. Hope this helps mate Peter.
Great video. As a class 60 fan this is a superb compilation. With regards the future it does look uncertain for the DB Class 60's. Ironically, when I spoke to a driver recently waiting to collect the shed for a Tunstead to Northwich working he said to me that he didn't think the re-geared sheds were as good as the tugs, and said to wait to see how they perform in the Autumn!
Many thanks! On paper, the two are very similar - the tugs are slightly down on power but slightly up on starting tractive effort. I wonder if EMD had geared the 66/6s for 60mph rather than 65, that the tractive effort of the two trains would be equal🤔
@@railquest it's also the low speed tractive control electronics that, on a Class 60, are far superior to any EMD. Which is part of the reason why double-heading was eliminated by Class 60s.
The 66/6s are still not pulling the same train lengths as the 60s and some customers are very unhappy with this, causing more loss in revenue for DBC, but they won't admit that. I surmise they have been under budgeting the return of the 92s to mainline operation, which caused the quick demise of the 60 fleet.
@@class77sncb The pricing is currently high for OH lines and hitting the profit margin on companies. This is what is happing with the Royal Mail 325's that they want to withdrawal from service. Most contractor yards are none electrified due to gantries and moving machines, that is why they are trying out bi and tri module locos to overcome issues and use the cheapest form of fuel available.
The Yeoman 59's were maintained at a purpose built shed. I worked in there a few times. They only had a handful to look after, easier task. BR /EWS had much larger fleets therefore harder to maintain that were worked harder . DBC had 59/2's. They then lost the Mendip contract due to the fact they did NOT want to overhaul the 59's at their cost. So they give away a good contract for short term gain and long turn loss... madness
Yeoman got the idea from looking at Irish rail's 071 class and the older 121, 141 & 181 class. Irish rail 071 class are still going strong 50 years later.
60014 being at Longport EMD/Progress Rail is something to keep an eye on. Should the Caterpillar C-175 become successful under the EMD/PR repower/rebuild project. Many more Class 60's will follow suit. Also new AC traction equipment like that used on their AC locomotives will make these even better for reliability as AC traction motors can take more punishment than DC motors. Also maybe Stadler will offer something similar as well as they use the CAT C-175 and AC traction motors in their locomotives.
Actually that's not quite true. They got the idea from the state of NSW Australia and their recent introduction of their 81 class EMD's of which 80 had been ordered. EMD trumpeted how reliable the 81's were and Foster Yeoman took a look and ordered the class 59 which is essentially an 81 class built to fit within the British loading gauge with some features that the 81 class has that the 59's don't have like dynamic brakes and air conditioning. In NSW the local EMD builder had so many spares on hand for the 81 class that they were able to build a further four locos. The 81's are still in service today and now operate right across Australia just not in the state of NSW. Availability remains good right up to the present day but GM locos have always been good and some rail operators here have ancient GM locos fro the 60's and 70's in their fleets still performing hard work.
@@AussiePom I'd heard where they got the idea from was an EMD SW1001 switcher they'd bought for one of their quarries. From what I've heard, when ordering that locomotive, Yeoman wanted to get two to keep one for spare parts, but EMD managed to get them to order just one claiming it'd be so reliable they wouldn't need spare parts. The Class 59 as I understand it is also more based on the EMD SD40-2 used here in the US, though designed to fit within the British loading gauge.
@@AussiePom In Australia there are EMD in Service from the 50`,see the EMD" Nose " Locomotives - see ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tPpvB7FFUUI.html
I belive that the refurbished Class 60's were all approaching the 20,000 engineer hour limit, so would have needed a lot of money spent on them to overhaaul their engines.
How does a 60 pull more than any other loco? How did a 59 outperform any BR loco double headed the moment she got off the ship? Wheel creep phenomenon and wheel creep control systems designed to take advantage of it is the main part of it. The other being she was geared lower than BR locos of the day. EMD were the first to develop and patent this. If a wheel slips around the 1% mark you get a right good boost in pulling power. EMD's Super series creep control gives upto a 40% boost. A very cheap and very effective invention. A few limitations though. if one axle slips too much the creep control detects this and powers all axles in the bogey back. Also this system doesn't kick in right away. The boost only comes in once she has already got going past the 5-ish mph mark. Not much good if your in a situation where you can't get up to that speed to get the boost. The 60 has an excellent wheel control system. if one axle slips too much then only that axle is dialed back to the ideal slip. Often an axle is about to slip because of humps and dips and bending and flexing of the track rather than poor railhead conditions. If one axle is about to slip and be powered back some, it can mean the locos weight is going through the other axles even more and traction motors can give even more oomph to them other axles. That's why it's called SEPEX, "Seperately Excited" traction motors. Also the wheel creep control on the 60 works from the get go. There are places in the UK where 59 and 70 have been sent and as soon as they railhead conditions were poor they couldn't cope on there own, they have to sit there doing an impression of a broken down loco awaiting the arrival of another to unblock the track. These places tend to be steep inclines with heavy loads like out of Liverpool docks, Ebbr vale steel works. These locos do fine in the dry ideal conditions and get stuck if not. Same with climbing out of a coal quarry with coal dust tracked up the railhead in wet or.. dry conditions. There are several different railhead conditions and the ideal wheel slip rate can range three quarters of a percent to one and a half percent. The 60 also has slip ring alternators. If there is suddenly alot more grip to be had she can generrate the power the traction motors need to take advantage of it faster. Same if the grip to be had drops quick, the slip ring alternator can power down faster.
@@alstonofalltrades3142 Really interesting, that - thanks for sending over! That does make sense in the context of why I have heard of a few 70s struggling to get going on wet rails
@@railquest My 'guess' is they fitted a very cheap wheel control system on the 70 which is ironic given that she has AC traction motors. The creep control circuits for AC is simpler and often better. A DC traction motor is like a steam train struggling on the edge and the wheels keep spinning out of control and the grip is lost she stalls or rolls back a bit. To design circuits to stop DC motors doing this while right on the verge of it must be hard! AC creep control systems are a lot easier, they can't wheelspin. You still have your doppler radar speed guns so you know the exact speed of the loco and to inform any/either creep control system. But.. in AC Traction loco's you just vary the frequency of the AC supply to the motors and she will never rotate faster than that. Best I can explain it is like if we orbit a magnet around a compass. doesn't matter what speed we make that compass spin at, the compass will never spin faster than what rpm we move the magnet around it. There are alot of American locos that have had AC added to the end of their class number to show that their original DC motors were taken out and AC ones put in with a better creep control system to go with them. Maybe one day they will fit a better aftermarket one to the 70 and re-gear her for 60mph. Then again maybe one day they put 3800hp Cat engine in the rest of the 60's. Imagine what she may do with 700 extra ponies. Anyways glad you like the last post, had a hunch you may like it. This is the bulk of what I know on this but the info is all over forums and websites once you know the terms. That and there is a right good book on the 60s in Liverpool central library I found. Good video btw, informative. Hopefully they find more work for these underrated locos.
Agree with you about class 60's superior traction control but just one point though , both the class 60 and 66 have slip ring alternators , the 60 having a single traction alternator and 66 having two traction alternators
@@alstonofalltrades3142 The 60 manages motors with individual motor field control its pretty responsive system , watched this in action many times watching live data on PC diagnostics software while riding 60's . Class 60 lifting heavy train on gradient with poor adhesion still amazes me , the slip control is near instant and you can see its load share working as the bogies transfer weight onto rear wheels as it start pulling . 66's have never impressed me like the 60 does but there pretty reliable and much cheaper to maintain
@@nounoufriend1442 Man Id love opportunity to see things like this. I got lucky one day going Liverpool though. A 60 was at Tuebrook sidings ready to do ghe run around. So I jumped off at Edge Hill and it was actually seperating several biomass out the rake. I guess flats in the wheel. The driver was giving it 'some' ommph. The track was bending under tge bogies and the middle axle was spinning ever so slighty faster than the outer two. And with no judder, very smoothly. It made my head hurt like seeing a massive cruise ship leave Liverpool dock and you cant fully see it move but you feel slightly off balance.
Looking back on the source I was using for that bit, Rail Magazine talked about the trade union fears in this article though I'm wondering if both government and union lobbying may have played a part in that. Have you got a source for the government insisting? If so, I'll add it to the list of corrections🙂 www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/the-resurgent-60s
Rail Express magazine said they were withdrawn after a major problem was found on a bogie during routine maintenance. DB did not give any more details about it. If other operators still use them it makes you wonder what the real cause for withdrawal was, surely if a major problem everyone's would be out of service for checks or repairs.
Thanks for the info! That's definitely an interesting situation, though sounds like it might have been an excuse to remove them given they'd already announced they'd withdraw the fleet by the new year
@@railquest Just what I am thinking after seeing this, no details given, and when GWR found cracks in their Azuma things LNER withdrew theirs for checks and also found cracks because with a major defect there is a national alert sent to all operators.
There is one fact: Class 66 and 67 are better in performance and share the same spare parts.An if you need more power, you take two ! That is done by FREIGHTLINER and DRS, too. I did enjoy your video !!
Thanks! A lot of the companies seem to have avoided doubling up sheds aside from DB in recent months post-60 withdrawal. I'm assuming thats because of increased fuel consumption. FL needed a lot of power for their bumper 4000+ ton Tunstead to Webley moves which utilised the even more powerful 70s - perhaps preferring to save fuel over putting double sheds on
@@class77sncb they have though DB and GBRf rarely do it. DRS I think are the exceptions given their key WCML Tesco trains have to scale shap requiring two locos.
Surprising that DB Cargo are still in business. They annoy both their customers and staff and it is small wonder why GBRf, Freightliner and Colas have taken their work.
Definitely, GBRf specifically seem to have done particularly well out of DB contract losses. It will be interesting to see if they survive in the long term.
Great video, living very close to the Mid Cheshire line, its such a shame the 60's have gone inc the biomass ones. The Northwich hoppers is now a 22 loaded set with a standard 66 and the 66/6 on the long distance Knowlsey bins which is 2000T and has been a normal shed for ages. Given Toton are looking after the GBRF ones then keeping 5 for DB should be cost effective, guess they're waiting for autumn season on wet rails for Northwich and the tanks flow to see if its worth it. As for the 60's looks like GBRF are putting them on stone flows and the NE biomass.
@@stevenmoran4060 They are in the process of withdrawing from their UK businesses so a couple of things have already been sold. DB Cargo UK, for now at least, remains owned by DB
Nice one very interesting, As Land Recovery have bought some 60s from DB , hopefully they will be restored to full working order to pull their own rail freight services. Wouldn't be surprised if DC would use more in the future with their operations slowly expanding. Although GBRf is rapidly growing its uncertain if they will use more 60s with more 66s becoming avaliable once class 99s start services towads the end of 2025. Nice speculation though. Slowly but surely DB cargo are going downhill.
@@railquest Having seen the state of the them if they manage to get 1 out of 12 restored I would take my hat off to them and probably eat it as well. I do not understand how any company could recover the loss of the money it would take to get one working, they would surely never make the money back to cover the cost of rebuild. The super 60 program showed the fact that for the money poured back into these loco's they did not last on track long enough to justify the expense and made a loss. I can understand if heritage took the projects on which would take years of hard work and love from volunteers it might be viable to restore one but from a business perspective the unreliability is always a net loss in the books not a profit.
@@mightynosebleed7476 This is quite right ! The class 60 were bought by EWS and the class 66 were leased by ANGEL trains..That is the difference. I do think, DB Cargo UK will wait to see the new class 99.. Therefore the class 90 are scrapped and the rest of the class 60 are purely old metal. Operational costs are the key factor. And the locos can be used with HVO Diesel..
@@class77sncb Hvo is not a selling point. It costs twice as much as red diesel and no operators are currently using it. Biggest problem is the Class 99 looks good on paper only and has a dirty secret as it may only be able to deliver 1,600 kW (2,100 hp) at the rail in diesel mode compared to the 8000hp that was promoted and promised. This is a huge drawback with most of the MML with no electrification. 66 puts out about 3600hp in top notch,
@@mightynosebleed7476 That is no dirty secret: The Eurodual 6000 delivers 2800 KW in diesel mode and the Eurodual 9000 1600 KW. Facts from Germany. New electrics alone do not fit, because therefore the electric network is too little and rebuilding class 92 and 90 too expensive.No option for DB Cargo UK. There is a larger electrified network in Germany, about 90 % ! Operational costs in UK were higher,when using electric locos.Therefore more engines were scrapped then expected instead of overhauling them.BUT one important notice: the eurodual has AC traction motors,which can cope with overload up to 60 %.Therefore the pulling power = 500 KN is more important then the installed power.
It was the xenophobic EWS that led to the Class 60 demise. Even to the point of destroying 60098 which held specific significance to the UK. When EWS slung their hook and DB Schenker took over, many were too far gone to be ressurected.
It is a shame honestly. Whilst I glossed over this point in the video, I read about how close the class came to complete withdrawal years ago in the final years of EWS. I suppose this is the inevitable effect of privatisation as if EWS saved money standardising so drastically, there's no reason not to
Found EWS pretty proactive with getting freight on the rails , certainly better to work for than either BR or Db , not been impressed with Db as they seem shrinking the company selling off accents (locos depos )
@@nounoufriend1442 I was in the union just as EWS took over, they restructured well and things were looking up. My concern was that class 66's had reliability far higher than British built traction, = less maintenance staff needed. I had a couple of meeting with Ed Burkhardt and his engineering director Jim Fisk. Their vision was good, but, Ed failed to understand the British Rail system. In 2003 it lost a major contract , Royal Mail. The class 60's started to become un reliable, made worse by the closure of Canton. DB Schenker started off ok but then went down hill. DB Cargo being the worst of the lot. I worked for BR, Transrail, EWS and then the DB shambles. They gave away work if it was marginal. Now we have a lot of companies fishing is a shrinking pond. Only GBRF seem to have an idea how it should go.
@@DOCTORDROTT Our team leader got in involved with royal mail when they were still running 47's he was away months at a time ( I covered his team leader job few times ). Availability very poor so don't think Royal Mail hardly paid for service due to penalty's but soon as EWS acquired the 67's Royal Mail had to pay as availability was very good , then we lost contract ! (smell a rat ! ) Met Jim Fisk times at imm seemed to have good ideas , got us some great Pay and conditions , Ed workhard (Burkhart) visited as well , I found EWS great to work for . DB shambles lol like that , they only seem interested in selling off assets and cherry picking best work , they laid off loads of drivers years ago only to rent them back from Victor rail to cover jobs ! . Going back to EWS days we were renting 66's from Freightliner to cover our workload , how things have changed
I'm in the camp that they are not unreliable. I've spent half a decade clicking on the RTT paths out of Liverpool to Drax. Loads of them. Seen one 60 fail and one 66 fail. It's just EMD are so much cheaper to keep running. you can neglect servicing them and still they are uber reliable.
@@alstonofalltrades3142 Locos have to be maintained to an engineering document, and not just left to run neglected, regardless of class. I worked on class 59 /60's and 66,s from new. The Mirrlees engine likes to be constant power constant load. Rail traction is a bit different. I worked alongside Mirrlees reps and Ruston reps on the 37's and 60's. The 60's were let down by various engine defects ( camshafts ) and brake electronics. The also had a lot of power earth faults, speed probe faults, starter motor abutment faults etc. I attended a few with number five power earth faults 90% of the time, strange that. Lots of class 60's has M5 restrictions on them
@@DOCTORDROTT They had their issues early on which is to be expected when designing a new loco. M5 restriction... These locos were designed like the 59 to do heavy haul at 60mph. They can get up to over 90mph with no wagons on but they're not supposed to do that. Probably why there is an M5 restriction in place.
@@bobtudbury8505 To be honest. I think they are slowly winding down their UK operations. Wouldn't surprise me if Toton Traction Depot becomes a GBRF facility besides the head office at Peterborough, which isn't top far from Nottingham anyway.
@@BritishRail60062 i hope so, i find it very wrong DB railways on uk rails, that's joining the eu for you .....on another note i think db railways are losing ground at home as so many private rail operators now working german lines, it'll be interesting to see how they get on that way as to how the uk are getting on???
@@bobtudbury8505 what a bizzare comment to blame the EU for. Private companies are free to invest in whichever railway operators they see fit - for example, there's British owned companies operating in Germany and 'taking' contracts from DB.
@@bfapple not strange at all, this country had an industry and could make everything before joining the eec / eu . the run-down was deliberate, and the uk was to concentrate on banking. .The Germans even wanted that by 2012, thank goodness we are out and we need to be fully out . We can then sort out the basics like egg production instead of importing them from Holland ffs!
Some facts wrong in your video, what / which are the twenty class 60s scrapped in 2010 ? To do a round up on a class of loco's you need to get the facts right to be credible. Example..I can't find details of any 60s scrapped in 2010. Do you have numbers of those disposed of at the scrappers?
Just reading your edited comment - this was something I'd come across during the research but did not deem it necessary to go looking for the actual locos in question. If it turns out no locos were indeed scrapped, then I'll post a pinned comment for the correction 🙂
Just had a look and I've found a list of the locos in question - looks like they were offered for disposal by DB, though this list actually features a couple of locos that have still, to this day, not been scrapped. web.archive.org/web/20101212090018/www.rail.dbschenker.co.uk/disposals/disposals.html I'll post a pinned corrections comment - ta for the heads up! 😀
