(4*) Will Kudo still make everything a 2/2 bear even after you Humble it? Support Judging FtW on Patreon at / judgingftw Suggest a question: forms.gle/YTK2qrQqTL18rRsJ9 A: Yes
@@cool_scatterHi, I'm the one that submitted this question! In fact, this came up because a friend did encounter it playing online and was curious whether or not it was a bug, so I did some rules grinding to figure it out
These are the kinds of things that keep me up at night. Layers are one of the hardest parts of Magic to understand. I'm glad you added the Ruxa part as that's immediately where my brain went.
The thing is, they're just so rarely relevant, because it's extremely rare that these interactions see play. But when they do, it's either in casual so no one knows about them, or in old format competitive (vintage and legacy), where many people know them already.
Following this channel since DDR #4. At the beginning I was often challenged but now I mostly get it right. And I don't think, that the videos got easier. Thanks for all the lessons, this channel has been a great resource for me.
Top tier content, Dave. Great topic, great energy, great presentation. Plus, it brings me joy to see someone so obviously giddy about what they're doing. Be well.
A few hours ago, I watched protour modern horizon's top 8 and in the fourth game between Simon Nielsen and Javier Dominguez, Simon Nielsen played Suncleanser and chose his second ability. However, Javier Dominguez played One Ring on the last turn. Could you please sort out this case or a similar one.What would happen if one of the players or the judge noticed this mistake during the match?
Based on the two cards you named, I'm not sure what mistake you think happened. Suncleanser's second ability prevents the targeted PLAYER from gaining counters. The One Ring doesn't give any player counters, it gives itself counters. It does give a player protection, but protection is an ability, not a counter.
@@robertlandman8546 Maybe i phrased question wrong. One ring gives player protection from everything, so Javier Dominguez could not be target of Suncleanser ability
@@fatikg2343 Using a triggered ability is not optional. When triggered, the controller can't refuse to put the ability on the stack. Nor can he or she choose an illegal target, if a target is required. If a targeted ability has no legal targets in play, it still triggers and goes on the stack, but is taken off immediately.
Very interesting! I understood how everything worked based off of some surface level layers understanding, I just didn’t know about 613.6 having each part of an effect apply for its ‘earliest’ layer regardless of the Humble. Informative as always, keep it up!
My thinking on rule 613.6 is that it's probably for effects like Opalescence. Without rule 613.6, removing Opalescence's ability would have it still turn enchantments into creatures, but it would no longer be able to specify what the power and toughness of those creatures should be, leaving you with creatures that have no power and toughness. I don't think the rules are equipped to handle a situation like that, so it makes sense there's a rule to prevent it from occurring.
Turn to Frog will have the same effect as Humble. Even though it would turn Kudo into a frog, the “removing abilities” part of turn to frog still wouldn’t apply until layer 6, which is after Kudo has already started applying his ability. However, you could stop Kudo with something like Song of the Dryads, since that doesn’t remove his abilities with a continuous effect and instead removes them by assigning him a basic land type, which automatically removes all of his other abilities in layer 4.
@@OceanicBacon Wait, but doesn't the “the whole effect applies in the first layer where any of it applies” rule mean that Turn to Frog takes away abilities during the type-changing layer? Or wait … maybe timestamps mean Turn to Frog still applies last …
@@jyrinxWhat happens is that at layer 4 the only thing that applies is Become frog, so the ability of "make everything else a bear" isn't being negated and starts to apply. So then when you reach the layer where it loses all abilities the example of the video happens, bear effect has already started applying so it will continue to apply the rest of itself
@@jyrinxWhat happens is that at layer 4 the only thing that applies is Become frog, so the ability of "make everything else a bear" isn't being negated and starts to apply. So then when you reach the layer where it loses all abilities the example of the video happens, bear effect has already started applying so it will continue to apply the rest of itself
@@jyrinx > "the whole effect applies in the first layer where any of it applies” rule That's not what the rule says, you might want to go back and re-read it
One interesting conundrum I've run across recently is with Ajani, Sleeper Agent's +1 ability, specifically the "Otherwise, you may put those cards onto the bottom of your library." What I'm unsure of is, what if you just don't, since may makes it optional? Do they go back on top? If they go back on top, are they to be in any order or in the same order?
It reveals the top card of your library. It doesn't move it until it gives you the optional choice of putting it on the bottom. If you don't put it on the bottom, you leave it where it is which is on top. Since it only reveals a single card, it doesn't need to specify an order.
What a wild setup and fascinating ruling 😲 Would this still apply if Humble was replaced with Darksteel Mutation? The big difference I think being that Darksteel Mutation also has a type changing ability. My initial thought is that it would go to timestamps, applying Kudo first, but because of this CR 613.6 ruling that Dave brings up, we'd have a similar setup: A 0/1 Legendary Artifact Creature - Insect with only Indestructible, but other creatures would still be 2/2 Bears. Of course, I'm wary to trust my first instinct when it comes to stuff like this 😅
If you darksteel mutation a kudo, then the mutation will have a later time stamp and get applied first. But it wouldn’t matter, since the ability-removing part of mutation still doesn’t apply until layer 6, so your instinct on the outcome is correct
I have a rules question I'd like to submit for consideration: a newly spoiled card, Chainsaw (DSK), says "whenever one or more creatures die, put a rev counter on Chainsaw." If an opponent sacrifices two eldrazi spawn to cast a spell, does Chainsaw trigger once or twice? Obviously if they sacrifice the spawn to float the mana before casting the spell, each spawn would trigger the chainsaw. But what if they activated the spawn during the casting of the spell? Thanks you're cool
Another question I have in a similar vein: If I control multiple copies of Anhelo, giving my spells multiple instances of casualty, does paying each additional cost trigger Chainsaw, or does that count as multiple creatures dying at the same time?
What would happen in the instance of Angel of Destiny getting removed from combat with something like Reconnaissance? Like removing it before blocks are declared. Does angel need to finish the combat phase as an attacker to make the player lose at end step or if he attacks and is removed from combat will he still have “attacked” that turn?
It attacked this turn as long as it was declared as an attacker, so yes. If you put it onto the battlefield tapped and attacking however, then it technically didn't attack since you never declared it as an attacker.
Retrace is an additional cost and evoke is an alternate cost. 702.81a: Retrace appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents a static ability that functions while the card with retrace is in a player's graveyard. "Retrace" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card as an additional cost to cast it." Casting a spell using its retrace ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f-h. 702.74a: Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card with evoke can be cast and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. "Evoke [cost]" means "You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost" and "When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it." Casting a spell for its evoke cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f-h. You can only pay one kind of alternate cost while casting a spell, but you can mix and match additional costs so it is legal to evoke a Mulldrifter by retracing it with Six.
I still don’t understand this one at ALL. Why does removing abilities not work on replacement effects like magus of the moon? I have watched that section of the video 3x now and am just as lost as the first time having heard it. In my mind, it would pretty much only make sense if removing an ability, well, REMOVED IT?
Replacement effects apply in an order defined by layers and if they apply later on a card, you don't then go back and recalculate older layers. Magus's type changing effect applies in layer 4, then it is removed in layer 6 but has already been applied. This might seem a bit strange, but if cards went back and changed how previous layers worked, you would have some other strange functionality like clones copying everything about a card. Swapping the order of layer 4 (type changing) and layer 6 (ability adding/removing) would also not work since now Maskwood Nexus would make things every creature type after Horned Sliver gave your slivers trample meaning your Grizzly Bears would not have trample even though it is a sliver.
Hey, it was great meeting you in Amsterdam! Thanks for the advice and the Godless Shrine you pulled for me. Great video, as always! Feel free to reach out if you ever come to Switzerland.
No. Even though Blood Moon removes abilities, it's not actually an ability-removing effect, it's a type-changing effect. This means that, unlike Humble, Blood Moon applies in Layer 4, which is why the Magus of the Moon interaction that was briefly mentioned works the way it does. Because Yavimaya/Urborg and Blood Moon are all type-changing effects, it would normally be decided by timestamps, except Blood Moon affects what would be affected by Yavimaya/Urborg. For this reason, those effects are dependent on Blood Moon, and therefore are always applied after it, at which point they are now Mountains and don't have their abilities.
EDIT: I read Humble incorrectly, I thought it was making everything 0/1's, not just a single creature - what an idiot. Imagine I'm talking about Sudden Spoiling instead (which is obviously a different situation.) I still don't follow - CR 613.6 says "the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate [layers]" - at 1:55 you frame it as "kudo's ability started to apply in layer 4", but the CR indicates that only the type-changing part of Kudo's ability started to apply in layer 4, and that it will wait until layer 7 to apply the power/toughness-changing part of his ability, at which point timestamps will be taken into account, Humble's being most recent, making all other creatures 0/1 bears.
